Masturbation, I don't think anything for granted. It comes from the word manas and travatsio, you know, and it usually means to agitate with the hand, you know, that's what the words mean, you know. And it really is a way of self-pleasuring. Now, we know that, and I certainly know that people use all kinds of things to do this, but, you know, and there's all kinds of sex tools, et cetera, and vibrators and all that kind of stuff. But basically the meaning is to touch yourself in the genital area in such a way that to, you know, agitate in such a way to, you know, bring yourself to some, you know, peak of tension and then the relaxation that comes. And that's, it is a sense of relaxation. And you can't be tensed and relaxed at the same time. So some people, when they feel sexual tension, feel sexual energy, masturbate is a way of relaxing. Some people use it as a way to go to sleep, you know, if they're dealing with tensions and they don't know what else to do. So we're going to talk about I'd like to talk about what masturbates, when people masturbate, and why people masturbate, and then we'll talk a little bit about the morality, although I'm not a moral theology, but we'll talk about the four places that people, how people talk about it from a moral perspective, and you'll probably be dealing with it, Patrisse will probably be dealing with it in here.

[01:13]

dealing with reconciliation. Well, the first thing he says, well, you know, who masturbates? We know that infants masturbate. Now, that isn't a conscious choice on their part, but in fact, as young as six months, a little boy can find his penis and when he touches it, etc., it will feel pleasurable and it will erect. It's as early as six months. So we know infants masturbate. We also know children masturbate. It's just pretty typical that they'll find them either in the washing room, their mom's washing them and they're touching the body, the body gets stimulated. So children will masturbate and you'll find them, you'll see little kids and of course their parents are mortified. They have their hands in their pants, you know what I mean? They're touching themselves. Why? It is pleasurable, and they will get a response, you know. So we know children masturbate, and often parents go ballistic, and we tell them to relax. It's a normal part of life. Now, they want to distract the child, you know, you don't want the child, the little boy, holding his penis while he's walking down the street, you know. But in fact, it's pretty normal stuff that children masturbate. And also, you know, adults, excuse me, adolescents, and that's usually the time when most people discover the fact that their body's pleasurable, that they remember.

[02:22]

And that is in adolescence. And so again, you'll find adolescents who come and feel shameful about it. They think they're the only one. But masturbating during adolescence, some point when the body is changing rapidly, is pretty common. And that's a lot of times when people first masturbate, that they remember it. It's during adolescence, when the big sexual changes, the hormones are raging, and you're trying to figure out what to do with the sexual energy that you have. Then, of course, adults masturbate. And we have different, we want to talk about different things that happen with adults. Right now we have adults, it's interesting about masturbation, a lot of people right now, especially young people, they figure, what's the big deal? I mean, they'll say, what's the big deal? You feel some sexual tension, you don't have a sexual partner, you masturbate. What's the big deal? They feel no They don't think it's a psychological issue. They certainly don't think it's a spiritual issue. Now, I think we have to look at that because I think to be so blasé about it, I think, could be problematic, especially if they get into a habit of masturbating, which separates them from others.

[03:24]

But that's how some people see it. No big deal. You cabbages are hung out. What's the big deal? Another group of people do think it's a big deal, but because of circumstances, they'll find themselves masturbating, and they feel okay about it, or at least trying to justify it, if you want to put it that way. And those are, for example, widows or widowers. These are people who have been used to genital expression with another person, and all of a sudden, they don't have a partner. What do you do with the sexual tension and the energy? And it's also related to loneliness and yearning. So sometimes you'll find that they will masturbate, and they'll come talk, and they'll feel shameful about it, But they'll do that as a part of waiting, even of grieving and of coping. Sometimes you'll see people in hospitals, if you ever do any hospital visiting, you know, if you've ever done any of that, who are so disconnected and they're anxious and nervous about surgery or cancer or whatever. They'll sometimes masturbate. Why? It's a way of relaxing, of soothing. It's not about sex, but it's a way of using their body to relax or soothe, you know, again, which is not the most appropriate way, but understandable, given what they're trying to cope with, you know.

[04:30]

So we're saying these are the things that happen in adults. And then we have the compulsive masturbators, people from whom it is a serious issue. I had one young man I dealt with. He was 23. It's when I was at the med school. 23, came in to see me, and he spent three and four hours a day with pornographic material masturbating. I mean, just, you almost couldn't believe, you know, that he was so hooked into this and really had no life. He had no relational life, and he spent, he wasn't working. I mean, it was a really disaster that this young man died of extraordinarily good luck. And that adult, you know, this is a fairly great guy, you know, but somehow got into this system of self-pleasuring and abusing pornographic material, and he was lost in this world of fantasy, and he didn't have a good healthy life. So again, that's a compulsive thing where a person's not free. This person's now, we have an addictive or cult compulsive thing going on, not free at all. You need some real psychological help to deal with that. So let me say, why do people masturbate?

[05:32]

Let me say, why do people masturbate? The first two are the ones that are usually related to children and adolescents, but adults can be there too. And it's about discovering their bodies, touching their bodies, figuring out where things are, how things work, et cetera. And in that process, wind up masturbating. And then they might go do it again, because again, we're talking about pleasure here. The second one is to satisfy sexual curiosity. Again, it's not uncommon that children and adolescents are quite curious about their bodies. Pretty normal stuff. You don't want to make this a big deal. It's normal, and hopefully they pass through that once they discover their bodies, etc. But it's pretty good. Now, adults can also be curious, especially adults who've had a lot of repression in their early life. Sometimes, by the way, a person who's been sexually abused Part of the treatment is reconnecting with their body. So a therapist, for example, is not encouraging them to masturbate, but does encourage them to look at their body, touch their body in a loving way.

[06:35]

And in doing that, they may masturbate. So it's not a question of teaching people to masturbate, but teaching people to love and touch their body in a loving way. The third one is the gratification or release, and that's the one we talked about. I feel tension, I'm just going to give myself a little release. Or I don't want to be bothered with a relationship. Let me read you a little book I brought with me. This is from a new book for clinicians on sex and the internet. And listen to this. This is a young man. Listen to how he describes how masturbation fits in his life. And you're going to hear a disintegrated point of view. This is not healthy. But listen to what he says. He says, relationships are emotionally demanding. And they are. That is not untrue. Then he says, Let me get it here. If I masturbate, I can start when I like, come when I like, and stop when I like.

[07:39]

I needn't bother with foreplay or romantic lighting or tender nothings murmured in her ear. I don't have to guess what she might like or discuss afterwards how it was. I can go to sleep when I feel like it. Let's talk about narcissistic. Let's talk about self-centered. Let's talk about using your sexual energy for your own self. It's not about connection here at all. And this is not atypical for some young folks or anyone of us could be in this place. What a disastrous place to be in when the energy is always about connection. And this is a real misuse of the energy. To affirm oneself, they say, to affirm oneself. Right, people sometimes feel, they don't feel good about themselves, they don't, they're feeling lonely, they're feeling disconnected, so they'll soothe, they'll take care of themselves, they'll affirm themselves by touching themselves in this fashion. What a poor way to affirm oneself, you know, there's got to be other ways to feel good about oneself than to use your energy in this fashion.

[08:45]

To manage anxiety, a big one, we have a lot of anxiety. This is a very anxious time, and I'm sure you're seeing that in people who come. They're anxious about life, they're anxious about their decision. Very anxious time, so what do we have people doing? We have people who don't know how to deal with, manage their anxiety, so they masturbate. This is a really, what I would call, an adolescent choice about dealing with anxiety. If you're anxious, And a lot of us think we need to learn how to deal with our anxiety in a healthy adult way. This is a less mature way to deal with anxiety. Oh, I'll just get rid of it. Why? When you stop masturbating or when you wake up after the nap or whatever, what you're anxious about still exists. You haven't changed a thing. So it's a temporary fix that's very immature, but people need to be challenged to look at that way. To avoid distressing aspects of sexuality, this is a person who maybe has a same-sex orientation, for example, doesn't want to deal with that, and so takes care of their sexual energy. A person who's sexually abused, for example, may find their sexuality very distressing.

[09:48]

It's not uncommon they have sexual issues after being sexually abused. So again, they need to deal with the sexual abuse, they need to deal with their orientation up front, deal with it in a better way, rather than to just masturbate, to do a temporary soothing. Maintain isolation, that's a pretty dangerous one. There's a book out called Sex for One, How to Take Care of Yourself. I mean, let's talk about individualistic, narcissistic. We're meant to be connected to one another, so what do you mean take care of yourself? We're supposed to be in relationship with each other, not disconnected. And then the last one, to punish. Now that one is a pretty severe thing, but I've seen some of the pictures where people literally mutilate themselves, hurt themselves in the genital area while something happened in the long run. So they do, they masturbate in very violent, forceful ways and hurt themselves physically as well as emotionally. That's pretty, that's serious business. Any one of these could be serious, but that clearly is a sign of something's not right here. So let's do, we'll do the four options and then we'll talk about this, maybe when we come back, and really say, what's the traditional understanding morally?

[11:00]

Well, the traditional understanding that's still in our church is that it's a serious sin. That's the traditional understanding. It's a serious sin. Most people are struggling with that. I know a lot of people struggle with that, that that's the moral sin, serious sin. The second one is called the diminished freedom notion, which is a Catholic position. You can hold this. That what happens with the diminished freedom is we're talking about there are some mitigating circumstances. So, for example, a riddle or literary, you know, so that's another condition. That is, it's not, it's still sinful, but it's not, it's not, there's some diminished freedom here going on. The third option is, what they talk about is the fundamental option. which some of you could probably explain better than I can about the fundamental option when we talk about that, which I basically understand is the person's in progress, they're in the developmental stage, and they need to keep working at this.

[12:02]

This is not the best choice, but it's part of their growth and development. And then the fourth stance, which is one that we probably, the church will be baffled if the other three people in good standing in the church sort of move between those first three. The fourth one is absolutely neutral. There's nothing moral here at all. It's just a human thing. What's the big deal? That one would not be a position that I think the official church would kind of hold with any kind of wouldn't hold that position. So those are, I think the moral issue is, you know, we might have to come back. I'd be happy to suffer. I'm not a moralist. But morality does come in here. Here's my stance as a hypothetologist. To say that it's totally neutral and nothing happens here morally, I don't believe, because If masturbation becomes a way of disconnecting and living an unhealthy life, then it is a moral issue because the energy is supposed to take us to connection.

[13:03]

When it doesn't take us to connection, we have to raise the issue. We have to raise the issue of the misuse of the energy. And I like to look at it that way. And a lot of it for me is about lack of development, lack of integration. rather than necessarily calling it a sin. But we do have to look at it. It's not so simple to say, what's the big deal? Because it can be a big deal. People's going to be living hundreds of great lives. So people realize it's an avoidance of the problem. They just wait for a minute, what is going on? That's right. If you want the malice, it's an avoidance of the problem, not masturbation. But the church is focused so much on it. There's honestly got this thing where if you start anything, you really intend to hold it. Well, if that was the case, that would be true. That's absolutely right, and that's the point of this. And I just keep saying to people, what's the point of the energy? And how are we dealing with that, and what the energy is meant to be for? And if we're not, I think we're in serious trouble, you know, so we need to go, I know, to get ready for what it's about.

[14:09]

Well, we're going to come back for our conversation after the lunch, is that really cool? It's pretty easy, and after, I don't know. Okay. I think they're helpful sometimes to start with a story. And this is a true story that happened to me. And I can say it publicly because the information is public information. In one of my lives in the past, I was the major superior of my entire division. And as the major superior, I came from the New York province. And there were four other people working with me and the leadership team. And we came from all different provinces. We're still fairly large. We're still about 2,000. And then we were even a little bit larger, you know, it was about 10 years ago. And when we came together, things, we didn't know each other. And then one of the things I learned very quickly after we were together for about a month and a half, two months, is that one of the women on the team was in trouble with alcohol.

[15:10]

And it was kind of shocking. You know, you kind of think that doesn't happen to us, you know, or it doesn't happen to the leadership team. And so we had to do an intervention. And I took her to treatment. I took her to the intervention, etc. Because it was important that we get her some help. And so we did that. Now, what's interesting is this is the story that happens to me on the way back from doing this intervention. And you can imagine what it's like. I was pretty tired, pretty emotionally exhausted by the time I get to the plane. And it was very tense for several weeks beforehand because we were doing all kinds of things to get this treatment to happen. So anyway, I come back and I get on the plane. and I come walking, really running to the plane because I'm late, and I'm in the back of the plane, and I don't know, I fly a lot, I fly all the time, you know, three or four times a month sometimes, and the back of the plane is not a good place for me. It bounces around back there, you know, and I can still get air sick, so I'm thinking, oh, this is going to be great. And it was about a two-hour flight, so I'm in the back of the plane, and I'm also in the middle seat. And I don't know about you, but the middle seat has got to be close to hell, I think.

[16:13]

Oh, there you are, in the middle seat. So fine, I said, I'm going to get in there. So the guy gets up and lets me in. And then on the inside seat right here is this seven-year-old black American child with a big yellow bow in her hair. And I don't even get in there. And she says, are you sitting here? And I said, yes. And she said, oh, good. I won't be alone. And I said, no you won't, I'm right here, you know. So I sit in and buckle up and she said, and what's your name? And I said, well my name is Lynn. And I said, and what's your name? And she said, my name is Jordan. And I figured, you know, named after Michael Jordan, you know. And then I knew I was in for it because she said, well what do you do? I mean this, it was like. The last thing I needed to do was to have a running conversation with a seven-year-old who was curious. And I said, well. Then she said to me, what do you do? And I said, that's a good question. How do you explain? You know, most black Catholics are not Catholic. And so I said, do I do the nun thing, or do I do the strength thing? And she said, well, I try to listen to people and help people. And then she said, really, just as quickly as that, she said, are you the boss?

[17:17]

And it was not loud enough, I'd say that, but you know, I'm sweet-trying to help people. And so, and then I said to her, well, what are you doing here? You know, just kind of all by yourself. And you could see her kind of take a little breath, you know, but she was a spunky kid, and I said, I wonder what's going to happen here. And she said, I just visited my dad, and I'm going home. So I live with my mom and my grandma. And I said, oh, okay. And then, you know, I think the counselor in me never goes away. I said to her, you seem a little sad. And again, she kind of took a little breath and she said, yeah, yeah. And she said, my mom and dad had a big fight this morning before I left. And my dad said, if my mom keeps it up, if she keeps, you know, nagging at him, then I won't see him again. I believe the second year old. put on a plane with this kind of heavy heart, you know? And so I said to her, well, I hope that that doesn't happen. I hope your mom and dad can work it out so you can, I'm sure you'll love them both. And she said, yeah, I do.

[18:23]

And I said, well, I'm sure you do. So hopefully that'll work out. And then she's chatting away. I mean, she just keeps talking, you know. She's got her doll and she's telling me about the doll and the doll's name and the whole works, you know. And I'm thinking, I ain't gonna die. Because, you know, it just, it was the first time I could let down in weeks. You know what that's like? You're emotionally exhausted. So finally I said, a little late dawn, and you know how you have to ask for what you want to meet? And I said to her, Jordan, I have to make a deal with you. And she said, I am really tired, really, really tired. And I said, if I took a nap for 10 minutes, if I just rested for 10 minutes, would that be all right with you? And then I'll talk all the way home. What do you think? And she said, no kidding. She said, it's okay. I'm tired too. And I said, okay, we're going to just close our eyes and we're going to nap for a few minutes. And then I'll come back and talk all the way home. Okay. She said, okay with me. So I closed my eyes and about 30 seconds later, I feel something right here.

[19:25]

And I open my eyes and look down and there she is with her eyes closed. and with her head leaning into my upper arm with her eyes closed, just to sweep this campaign. I just kind of closed my eyes again. And then, almost shockingly, about 30 seconds later, I feel something in my hand. I was sitting there with my hands on my lap, and I opened my eyes and I looked down, and she had reached over, and she's holding my hand. So there she is, with her head leaning into my shoulder, holding my hand on this Way home. Really, I don't know who's holding who's hand, you know. And I really, the first thought I had, because I keep hearing the safety issues, and I'm thinking, oh my goodness, they know I'm not this. She has a big sign, by the way, you are an unaccompanied minor. The big red tag that they wear. Really, I'm not her mother. First of all, I mean, I'm told by race here, you know, I'm not her mother. And so I'm thinking, oh my God, what are they going to think?

[20:26]

And then I said, oh, forget it. Just hold her hand. If anybody says anything, you'll deal with it. You know, you'll just tell them what happened. So they held hands, the two of us, and just kind of rested for probably 10 minutes. I don't know how long it was really. And then I really did get a second wind. I mean, I, and I was really so touched by this little kid, you know, so that I kind of opened my eyes and she just withdrew her hand and we never talked about the touching. I never talked about that. And then we just talked all the way, literally. All the way back to, I was living in St. Louis then, where I generally live, so there I was, talking with this kid all the way back. And then, the last piece, the plane lands, and just before the plane lands, the flight attendant says, now you sit right here, to her. Frequently they take them off last, and they literally take them by the hand and put them in the hand of the parent who's receiving them, because of the safety issue, you know, so they escort them. So, and of course, when the plane lands, I do what I ordinarily do. I get in, I get my purse, because I didn't have any luggage, I had just gone up for the day in bed, and I walk, I'm halfway out of the plane, and I realize, and I turn around, and there she sits.

[21:29]

No tears. This kid was really spunky. There she sits, looking at me with these big eyes, you know, and I realize, you know, what was I in all such, all fire and hurry about, you know? And now we get our habits. The plane lands, you get up and leave, you know? And I thought, what's that about? And it really took me aback. I just kind of got up and went on my way out the door and there she sat, you know, by herself. That's the story. Now the question is, it's not a relationship. How could it be? It was only a very couple of hours. So the question is that. Would you call that an encounter, an intimate encounter? Because that's the word we're talking about here, intimacy. Would you call it an intimate encounter or would you not? How many of you think it is? Intimate? Why would you say that though? What makes it, what makes it, what happened between us that we might want to use the word intimate? Trust. Okay, and how did the trust, how did you know, what's trusting? What's happening that would make you say trust? The revelation of her parents, the taunt, the self-disclosure, right?

[22:33]

Anything else about trust? To reach out. Okay, so the touching part. And by the way, you know, kids have good radar until we mess it up. And so if she was not, if I didn't feel safe to her, okay, she would be at the window. She would not have come near me. So you're absolutely right. Trust happened, both in touch and in conversation. What else happened that would make you think intimate? We're trying to get into a mind and heart, the chalk. Yeah, I mean, there's that, that, it was, it was on a deeper level. Wasn't it something happened? It wasn't just, you know, peripheral stuff, but, but we were able to talk a little bit about, although I didn't disclose much, you know, but I did tell her I was really tired and that was, that was really true. I couldn't have told her my joke that was, that was more true than that. So there was something else that happened, something about the mind and heart. What else? Bonding. Bonding? Mm-hmm. And of us, there was a bonding that happened between us. What else did the lady say? Anything else? Acceptance. Acceptance. Acceptance. Really. Isn't this sweet?

[23:34]

This little seven year old could accept an adult saying, Look, honey, I'm really tired, can you just be quiet for a little bit? And she said, not only did she say okay, but I loved her joining with me. Okay, I'm cared to. And I don't know if she was or not, but I thought, what a terrific, you know. So acceptance was there. Mutuality. Mutuality, okay, there's a give and take between us. Now, we're gonna talk about mutuality in a minute, because it's somewhat mutual, but there is some mutuality, that give and take. Anything else? That you think of that would make you think about it? Well, no, openness is another thing. Being willing to talk about, being willing to say where you're at. Openness. So if you look at the handout, some of you may have peeked at that, Manager. Take a look at this. I noticed that. You're being good, though. Tell them something. But here we are. Trust is clearly there. There's no doubt about it. And by the way, if we're going to talk about trusting, then we're going to talk, we have to talk about self-disclosure.

[24:38]

If you want to build trust in your own community here, have the trust increase. It is about self-disclosure. I mean, they sing a piece. Remember now, this is being taped for posterity. There we go. So trust here. We're talking about trust, and in particular we're talking about fundamentally underlying trust is self-disclosure. So we're going to build trust and have that self-disclosure. Safety and a lack of fear. Clearly there was safety and lack of fear there. There's no doubt about it. And you could see it in her as she relaxed with me, and I certainly wasn't fearful of her. Acceptance, no doubt about it. I mean, think about a little seven-year-old saying, it's OK with me. Here you are being tired, and it's OK. Openness, clearly, availability, that we were available to each other.

[25:44]

And when I felt so stretched out in my mind that I just said, I need to rest a little bit so I could be available with her again. So notice that we're going back to a boundary issue here. I need some space. Can you cut me some space? And then we can come back and be available again. I just can't be available all this time. I knew I couldn't. I was too emotionally drained. And then the vulnerability, me saying to her, you know, I'm really, I'm tired. Now it wasn't, that isn't the most vulnerable thing I could have said to her. But I had to speak, we're talking seven, so you had to speak to a seven-year-old. So I tell her, I'm tired. And then she tells me about being fearful or being, you know, sad about her mom and dad and what's happening. So the vulnerability is there. Now, those are all clearly there to a fairly decent degree. On the other side, we've got three other things that are there. And these are the things that make me talk about this question, the whole notion of intimacy in this particular story. The one is when we talk about mutuality. Because although it's mutual, there is a give and take.

[26:45]

It's clearly a lot of reserve on my part. I am saying hardly anything about what I'm really experiencing. Why? What would a child of Senna understand? Even if it was my niece or nephew, what would they understand of what I was going through? You pitch it to the child of Senna. If it was an adult there, I would be saying probably, maybe I wouldn't say anything to an adult. But she ended up helping you. She did. Oh, there's no doubt about it. You didn't have to ride the back of a plane. You didn't get sick. You can lodge it and walk away. That's true. That is true. I mean, we kind of got engrossed in each other. That's true. But it isn't mutual in the sense of what we share, you know, and particularly the kinds of things we share. There's some mutuality, but not the kind you have with an adult. Or if one of the other team members was with me. Suppose the two of us had gone. We would have had a different conversation, although we may have been circumspect being in a public place. Empathy. That's the capacity to walk in another person's shoes. So critical. The capacity to feel what it's like for another person.

[27:47]

Now when I said to her, I'm tired, she understood tired and she did empathize with me. If I said to her, I'm emotionally exhausted, I'm not sure she would have gotten that. Really, you know, if I had said some other things. So here she is meeting me exactly with what I needed And it's helping, and that's true, but she's at that particular level. She is a child. And here's the last piece, the balance of power. There is no balance of power with an adult and a child. So therefore, that in particular is one where it's going to make me say, although this is a precious kind of interaction, I'm going to probably not withhold the word intimacy, because intimacy requires that the balance of power be there. And that brings us right back to the boundary conversation we had last night. That's why it's very hard to talk about having an intimate relationship with someone who is coming to us for any kind of help. Why? There's always an imbalance of power. So we can kid ourselves and think this is intimate when somebody's coming to us for help.

[28:48]

But it isn't intimate. It has a lot of the qualities of intimacy. But because of the imbalance of power, we can't talk about that as an intimate relationship. And it's clearly not a place to get your intimacy needs met. You need to meet your intimacy needs with your peers, with people with whom you have equal power, not somebody who's in an imbalance who's coming to you for help. So for me, for example, it would never be possible for me to have an intimate relationship with my client. Now, what happens there has a lot of these qualities, but it's one-sided. Why? Because they're there for my help. I'm not there dealing with my stuff with them. And if I am, I'm crossing boundaries. So that's why the balance of power is a critical issue here. We must, if there's an imbalance of power, you're in any kind of a helping relationship, you can't talk about intimacy, man. You can't, because it's not going to be mutual. It's going to be one-sided, and it's going to have a lot of these qualities, but it's not going to have the final couple of pieces, which is the balance of power and the mutuality in particular.

[29:52]

So that's why you have to be very careful here. People feel like, and one of the things with helpers that's very interesting is we often get engaged in intimate kinds of things. and we cannot get intimacy in our own life because why? Because we're always dabbling with intimacy with others but we never do the part which puts us in the picture and therefore you can live a non-intimate life and yet be very in a relationship with people that has a flavor of intimacy. It's gonna have a lot of what's on the left-hand side, but it's not gonna have mutuality, a balance of power. And so we can live a pseudo-intimate life, and that's the critical piece for helpers. Pseudo-intimacy, false intimacy. Or we can cross boundaries and do intimate kinds of things, which is a violation of trust and a boundary violation. So, therefore, intimacy needs need to be met with peers with people who are like you, not people whom you're serving. And that becomes really... Now, what's challenging about that is when we said... Remember we talked about dual relationships last night?

[30:53]

And we talked about a caster, maybe, who's really good friends with a couple in his parish? Well then, some of his intimacy needs are going to be met with them, but he's got a second hand on, and that's the dual relationship piece, which is very complex to keep it all straight. Do you have a question? Yeah. So you're saying in this particular case, they've met everything but this balance of power. In real mutuality. It's not, it's got some flavor of mutuality, but there's really a lot of withholding on my part. All right, let's, let's throw in mutuality. Perfect. Maybe mutuality. So balance of power, and you're saying to balance power because you were in a dullness as a child. Right. So then you're saying a parent doesn't have an intimate relationship with their child. That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm not saying it isn't special, it's privileged, it's got all kinds, you can use another name. I want to reserve the word. That's what I'm asking you to think about. You may not agree, but I'm asking you to think, I want to reserve the word. Come to the end. All right. When you say where does intimacy occur? And a couple of things that you do in this slide says it refers to the many ways that we have an opportunity to be up close to people.

[32:00]

A lot of people want it. When I say they have an intimate relationship. If you hear that in our current society, they have an intimate relationship, what does it usually mean when we use those words? They're having sex. We've equated intimacy with genital behavior. We've also equated intimacy with the last two things. Friendship and romance. What I'm suggesting to you is that intimacy can happen in many different ways. It happens when we're in cooperative relationships. It can happen even in a competitive relationship. It can happen that we have these intimate kinds of connecting. It happens when we collaborate, when we play, when we make decisions. And even if it's in conflict, especially if we deal with the conflict well, we'll be closer to one another than if we never had the conflict. It'll be a different kind of relationship. Our problem is we don't deal with conflict well. We get mired in the conflict and we wind up killing each other instead of being closer to each other. And it will also happen in friendship and romance. So notice, we're saying intimacy is bigger than

[33:02]

It's bigger than a romantic relationship. Therefore we can talk about intimacy in communities because we can say it's something that can happen among us. We don't even have to be friends for it to happen. It's a way of being in relationship that asks us to be in relationship with each other in a unique way. So what are we talking about here? Oh, this just says it's not about the beginning stages. It's not about intensity. And by the way, if you're counseling or walking with people, especially people who are following on the idea of this real intense thing going on, and they think that's intimate, say, no, it's often about intensity, this intense thing, and it may not be intimate at all when you eventually look at the relationship. And it's not related to friendships, romantic relationships, or marriage. That's a different concept than we're used to thinking about. If you look at this, oops, this next slide, you say, well what is it? You have, this is the three page, the three, I know the pen's a little small, you might get a little vague about it. Instancy means that we can be who we are in a relationship and allow the other person to be who they are.

[34:05]

Be who you are and allow the other person to be who they are. So we don't have to put on masks here, we don't cover up, we don't hide, we be who we are authentically. And then it gives an example. Talking openly about things important to you, taking a clear position, these are some of the more verbal ways of being intimate. Clarifying the limits, there we're talking about boundaries, what's acceptable, what isn't. That all of that happens in an intimate relationship. We're talking about openness, clarity, stating where you're at, and that you also have boundaries in them. And all of those are negotiated in an intimate relationship. Now, if you notice, it says if it's true for you, it has to be true for the other person. And then this last sentence on this slide is really important. Notice what it says. If it's going to be intimate, we stay emotionally connected to each other in the tough and anxious times. In other words, when it gets difficult and we don't agree, when somebody disappoints us, when we're frustrated with somebody who doesn't show up and do what they said they were going to do, whatever the issues are that happen, and they happen in community almost daily.

[35:14]

We hang in there, we stay connected, we don't rule the other person out, we don't throw them away, we stay connected. Now, staying connected may mean going and talking to them about what happened, if probably done, dealing with it, you know, whatever it is, but you stay connected to the other person in the tough and anxious time. You don't leave. and don't leave. It's tempting to leave, to say, oh, heck with it, I'm not going to deal with it. I'm not going to deal with it. I'm just going to go on my own very way. It's tempting to do that. In a more intimate stage, you hang in there. Now, it doesn't mean you always hang in forever. That's where sometimes relationships end. If you notice what it says here, that an intimate relationship is when neither party silences, sacrifices, or betrays, and I think it, I put a little adjective in here, their authentic self. So you don't silence, you don't keep quiet. I say, what do you think you're going to tell me? You don't sacrifice your real self. I say, would you do this? And it's something you really don't feel it's good to do or you don't want to do it.

[36:16]

You say you do it anyway. So you see this kind of acting contrary to who you are authentically. That doesn't mean we don't stretch, that we don't say yes sometimes when we'd like to say no, but I'm talking about contrary to who you are. You're doing things that don't fit with who you are. And then notice, or you betray your own self. So none of that happens in intimacy. So you're being yourself. And each person can be strong and vulnerable, weak and confident. So in other words, there's a whole person here. None of us has it all together. None of us is strong all the time. Or some of us sometimes we're going to be weak. We're going to need to ask for help. And by the way, in the article, if you're on events vulnerability, one of the big issues about men and intimacy is your inability to be vulnerable with one another. But the real fear and real not knowing how to be vulnerable. To say to somebody, I don't know, or I need some help. And it's not just physical help, you know what I mean?

[37:18]

We don't share as much as we need to, men in particular don't. negative about being vulnerable, about being intimate. And notice the second part of this. Genuine intimacy to man. And here's the big A word again. Awareness. And if you haven't heard one word from me throughout these days, it's the word awareness. Who are you? What are you thinking and feeling? What's happening in your life? And how do you share that with other people? That's what this says. That you're aware of yourself, your strengths, your limitations. You don't have to hide them. They can say, I don't know how to do that. Like somebody said, once in a while, somebody will ask me something, I say, you know, really, I don't know anything about that. You know, I'd be happy to help you find somebody who does, but I'm not the one who knows it, you know. You can say, I don't know. I mean, that's a really adult thing to do, you know. You can say you don't know, and you can like them then. And then also it says that we risk engaging with one another with our games. And then you might want to change this slide. I need to change the slide. You see where it says with the probable consequence?

[38:20]

You might want to cross out the word probable. Because to be truthful, if we engage each other without gains, we will change and grow. Why? We're going to help each other. We're going to see each other differently. We're going to be looking at the world in a different way. It's not going to be just stuck in my own world. So I will change and grow if I'm in an intimate relationship with you. And so will you change with me if that's happened. If we're having this kind of relationship, we're not going to stay the same. This isn't about being stuck. This is about growth. Now, I was doing this thing for a group of men formators. One congregation had 20 formators from all over the US and Canada. And I was working with them. And one of the guys said to me, we can't come. I said, pardon me? And he said, we can't. We said, this is women's talk. I said, really? Do you think that? And he said, yeah. And I said, well, why don't you think this is about women, this stuff called intimacy?

[39:21]

And he said, because it's kind of mushy, you know what I mean? I thought, it's kind of interesting trying to describe to me why it was women's stuff. And I said, Well, what do you mean by bushy? He says, well, you know, it's, it's not about, you know, men are supposed to be strong. And I said, oh, okay. Take a look at this next slide, which is Erickson's work. And listen to how Erickson describes intimacy. And then let's talk about it being not about strength or about weakness. Look at what Erickson says. He says it's the flexible strength. And notice from going right back to that word flexible that came out of the boundaries conversation last night. It takes a flexible person, a strong person, to be close to another person. And look at that next sentence. It expresses the ability to be close, but maintain a lively sense of yourself. You never lose yourself, but you put that self in relationship and grow and become a better person. Interestingly enough, the word communion, and we said, I said yesterday, the Holy Father called priests to be men of communion.

[40:27]

Real understanding of communion is to be one with without ever losing yourself. It's almost the same thing. That's what real communion is, to be one with. So there's a unity, but each of the persons remains their separate self. And that's what this is, exactly what this is saying. So we talk about communion and we talk about intimacy, it's a very similar thing. And then notice the second thing. It's a capacity to commit yourself to concrete affiliations. That means real people, you know, not, I like everybody in general, or I like everybody. You know, that stuff is crazy to say those things. We don't like everybody, you know. But we're in a relationship to develop the strength, notice, the ethical strength to abide by our commitments, even though they call for standard phrasing and compromise. So one of the things that happens in camping is experience of intimacy, where we abide by our commitments with one another, even though they call for sacrifice and sometimes compromise on our part.

[41:28]

So intimacy is much bigger than a romantic, friendship kind of notion, and it has to do with being authentically yourself and placing that self in relationship with other people. Being willing to be more open, more vulnerable, more self, Now, skip over a couple pages, if you would. You're going to find this slide. It's one big page. And these are some opportunities for intimacy that shows us how we can experience intimacy with one another in community, or with other people. It isn't just in community. You can experience this with friends that you have, or sometimes with family members, depending. When I'm working with the younger members, I say to them, look, 11 out of 12 isn't there. You know, because if you look at the first one, which is genital intimacy, that's the one that we don't participate in because it doesn't fit with who we say we are. So I said, you know, if you think about it, we have 11 other opportunities to experience intimacy with one another and in community.

[42:35]

It isn't bad then to think about 11 out of 12. Nobody has it all, you know. So here are some ways of experiencing intimacy or opportunities for intimacy. If you notice the first one, it says the emotional intimacy, and right away, that goes right back to this conversation right here. That's right here. That we talk about interpersonal expressions when we talk about where we are emotionally. Now, a lot of people struggle with that. Even, you know, women struggle with that, but men seem to struggle even more with the ability to, first of all, to know what you're feeling, and then to share that at some level. So if you're feeling sad, First of all, do you notice that? And a lot of times we don't. You don't know how to put the name on the feeling. And then, in addition to God, what are you thoughtful about? And you say it to them, you know, for whatever reason, whether it's sad or frustration or happy about something or pleased or excited or, you know, it doesn't have to be negative stuff, you know, or angry or disappointed.

[43:43]

Who do we say those things to? If we don't express those as part of our sexual energy, where do you think that energy is going? It's being stuffed. And there's a great sentence I like to use, the opposite of Expression is depression. So if you tend to get a little flat, tend to get a little depressed, you may want to look at how you don't express what you need to be expressing, whether it's a thought or idea, or clearly some of our feelings. If we express them, we won't depress them. And this is a critical thing. And by the way, we're dealing with a lot of what we call low-grade depression in the kid's life. And part of the reason why we have so much low-grade depression or dysphonia is because we are not as expressive as we need to be. We never learned to be expressive. So if you tend to get a little flat, and by the way, most of us do. That isn't the worst thing in the world, that we tend to flatten out a little bit, you know. But the point is, we don't have to get depressed.

[44:44]

We need to get it out. So emotional expression, it's going to be very important. With whom can you do that in this room? With whom can you do that outside of this room? It needs to be a part of our life, emotional expression, how you do it. The second one talks about intellectual intimacy when we talk about the world of ideas. Again, it could be a good book you're reading and you share it with somebody and somebody said, oh yeah, I read that, I want to write, you know, you know, you share some article that you find important with somebody else who might be interested in something. So it's a great way to do it. So, you know, we have a great intellectual tradition in the Catholic Church. We have a great intellectual tradition. We don't want to let it go by goodbye. You know, we don't have to limit our heads for sure, but to share ideas. to read something that's really good and share it with somebody else and say, what do you think? That can be a real way of connecting. We're not saying it equals anything. We're simply saying it's a way of connecting that thing to them. I studied in Tennessee where you share experiences of beauty. I can just give you one quick example of when I was, several years ago, we were on our way to a congregational chapter.

[45:50]

Two friends, three friends and I drove across country. We drove 10,000 miles in 30 days. And it was one of the best trips we had ever had in my life. And there's four of us in this car, you know what I mean? And one of the things we did is we went to the Grand Canyon. And one of the people I travel with is a high S.J. in the Miami Springs, real ordered and structured. She managed to get us there at sunset. Don't ask me how she did it, but we wound up at the Grand Canyon on the south rim, just as the sun was setting. The most unbelievable experience, you know, the changing of colors on the... It was a sunrise. Yes, we did get up for sunrise, but here she managed to get us there, you know, this great thing, and we still talk about it. We still remember the day when we got there, nobody talked, you get out of the car and the door, all you could hear was the click of the doors, and the shutters of cameras, and 200 people in the South Rim watching this incredible sunset. Nobody speaking.

[46:51]

It was a religious experience, you know, that kind of thing. So we're talking about, there's times when we, but we walk by things, you know, we don't, you know, we walk by sunsets, we don't pay attention, you know, we don't share them with other people. Anytime we can, it's another way of being close, another way of having an experience of intimacy. The creative intimacy, when you do things together, I don't know how intimate it felt, but I've been intrigued by listening to the building of all the plans around your own monastery here. As we listened to them at lunch, the coming together of ideas, the hashing it out, and how profound It's really profound to listen to the planning of it, that it has a lot more meaning than just this, you know, big planned building there. There's a lot of thought went into that. The coming together on that and to having it mean something, it can be a way of connecting and being intimate. And for those of you who are there, who are there, if you weren't, I'm sure it was, Recreational agency where we have fun and play.

[47:54]

Most of the time we don't play. Men in particular are terrible about the word play because if there's any winning and losing, it's not play. Win play has no winners and no losers. It's a way of being together in an easier way than somebody's winning and somebody's losing. A quick example, when I taught the novices in Albany, every Wednesday night we would play volleyball. Anybody who wanted to come would play volleyball and the novices would be there. And we're talking about male and female novices. from several congregations, and I was one of the teachers and some of the novice directors. And one night we were there, and really everybody came to play, and I mean literally to play. This was not a serious game. And one day one of the novices, the male novices, brought with him a friend who was not in a religious life, and he didn't know. So he gets there, he's spiking the ball, you know, he's pounding the ball. People are, you know, saying, what's going on here, you know? I mean, and this guy wants to win, so his friend says to him, what are you doing?

[48:54]

He had kind of a nice way, and he says, what do you mean what I'm doing? I'm winning, don't I? And he said, this isn't about winning and losing. Because we just come here and fool around. And we did play, and there was some mild scorekeeping. But this kid was just totally out of the picture, trying to beat the ball. People were banging the ball, and he was like, give me my hair, you know? Because it wasn't about winning and losing. It was simply about having fun. And by the way, it was very healthy for them. And it was also a way for touch to happen, because why, you know, you dive into the ball and touch the ball, there's touch, there's grabbing, and it was all healthy fun of really where you could touch one another, male and female, and it was a real healthy way of them expressing some of their sexual energy in a game, and it was a lot of fun. And we had to teach this young man how to have fun. Work intimacy when you share common tasks. Sometimes when you share common tasks can be a little challenging. You know, I mean, it can be some conflict there, but if we can share, we work together, make something happen. I'm sure you'd like to have an opportunity to bring in the hay, rather than having it sitting out there getting wet.

[50:00]

It's that kind of thing, when you can work together, it can help. Crisis intimacy, when you cope with problems and pain. Truly, I think 9-11 is a perfect example of that. When we experienced 9-11, we were a kinder, gentler people. We were together. The whole country was, the world pulled together with us to kind of mourn and grieve and to try to help us. I had the opportunity, I volunteered and went to New York to help and was there for several days working with people who got out of the town. It was mind-boggling to be there and to listen to their story and to try to accompany them, you know. And I just felt compelled to go. And I was one of hundreds of volunteers, psychologists and things, who went just to offer some relief to these folks who had just experienced this horrible thing, you know. So you can, there's a sense of, but they were so, and they were so grateful. And so it keeps me wanting to say thank you.

[51:01]

You know, we're there just, just trying to be there to comfort it, to try and help it. And we just, we got more out of it than we even made it, you know. Conflict Intimacy, what we face and struggle with differences. The other side of conflict can be a better connection than if we never had the conflict. Our big difficulty is we mess up in the conflict. We don't know how to deal with conflict, so we wind up separating or disconnecting instead of connecting in a better way. Let me say one sentence about conflict that's important to remember. It's always disruptive. It doesn't need to be destructive. It's always disruptive. Nobody likes it. It's always kind of get your guts rolling, you know. But it doesn't need to be disruptive. It doesn't need to separate us if we get better at dealing with conflict. Our struggle is we're not as skillful. Look at the article again I gave you of Martin Campbell. One of the things he talked about is conflict. We need to deal with conflict in a better way. All conflict says is something isn't right here. And we're just poor at dealing with it.

[52:03]

We wind up hurting each other and having more problems because we don't deal with it well. Spiritual intimacy where we share ultimate concerns, we talk about who God is in our life, we talk about how God is inviting us to whatever. Let me give you an example that goes back to the issue you were raising, and that is the notion of I just was on retreat for a week, you know, in Connecticut. And my retreat director, there's no doubt about it, I'm speaking to her about one of the most intimate things of my life, that is my relationship with God. And talking, she's doing all she can to coach, to invite, to help me hear God's invitation. It's not mutual. because she's not doing her work with me. She's helping me do my work. So it isn't intimate. It feels intimate. And I'm certainly pouring out the spirit, the stuff, but it's not a mutual sharing that's going on there. So it's one-sided, which it needs to be. She's there for me. I'm not there for her. And so that's what I'm talking about, about the balance of power.

[53:04]

I wouldn't call that an intimate relationship either. Although... I wouldn't call that. No. But a parent, child, or a mentor, a protege, or a coach, You know, I think some of those can be. Well, I'm going to be real sticky about saying I would prefer not to use the word because of the imbalance of power. I understand he has a lot of the qualities we're talking about here, sure. Then the last one, the communication intimacy, which is the way we really connect with one another. It's really the source of a lot of the other stuff. These are all opportunities for intimacy. Whatever you're talking about, we're talking about being our authentic self, being real, no masks, being able to be where we are without, we feel comfortable being there and inviting other people to do the same. They say, why is it so hard to develop? And by the way, I think we're shipped back to a couple of pages we said in the second page. I hope you have this, okay? Why is it hard to develop? By the way, when we talk about intimacy, you know, we talk about it with laypersons, laymen and women, you know, a hundred people will show up on a given night because they are also trying to figure this out.

[54:11]

What is it? They know they search for it, they use the word, but they're not really sure what it is. And one of the things we talk about is, why is it so hard in our culture today? And here's some of the reasons. And again, we try to list a few more. Lack of commitment to do the work of relating. We have a very romantic notion about relationships. And if you look at the advertisements, which I'm sure you don't spend much time watching TV, but if you look at the advertisements, it says, if you have the right toothpaste or if you have the right pair of jeans, Or if you're in the right place, if you have the right house. It's all about external things. If all those things exist, then you'll have an intimate relationship. But none of those things are really going to work. So we have to work at relating. And that includes, as you know, you have to work at our communal relating. If we're going to talk about intimacy and community, we're going to talk about work. It's not going to just happen. Which means you've got to focus on the relationships and community, not just hope that you'll connect with people. Culture does not support too much going on. It's crazy.

[55:11]

We're running to the next thing and many women religious at least The active religious men and women are out running from one thing to the next to the next. We hardly engage one another in the community. We miss each other in our own community settings. We don't spend time with our friends or family sometimes. So it's too much going on. The pace is just crazy. And we're not going to end into the city if we keep up this pace. Also, the excitements and unbridled consumerism. I always say, you know, we're taking our children to Disneyland at age three. What else is there? I mean, if you think about it, we take little, little kids to one of the biggest, most exciting places you could go to Disneyland or Disney World, you know, where everything is just kind of like, wow, you know, we take them to three. I mean, what are you doing to that? You know, I mean, it's, what else do we show them? I mean, it's just an example, you know, we just, we have too much excitement going on.

[56:12]

And then consumerism, we own too much, we want too much, we have, we're into the next upgrade or the next this or that, you know, we're doing this all the time. Non-intimate living spaces, a lot of space, not much space and a lot of noise. You know, our apartment complex, if we live on Cumberland with the people who live in apartments, you know, sometimes our communal spaces, for women anyway, our communal spaces are very small. We don't have enough space for a really more quiet community. You can hear somebody talking on the phone down the hall, for example. And then we had 1,000 substitutes, and here's where all the compulsive behavior, drugs, food, alcohol, TV, media, ice pack, the internet, cyber sex, we have all of those substituting for intimacy. And they just kind of soothe the, take the edge off of the disconnection and we just go there and go there and go there. When we say, what does intimacy require? I'm not sure you have this one. Do you have it?

[57:12]

Okay. What does it require? Again, this first sentence is, I sound like a broken record, because it's true. We need to have a clear sense of who we are. We need to be self-aware. And it says that I'm like self-focused. I could misinterpret that, meaning self-centeredness. It doesn't mean that at all. It means we don't be our... today and tomorrow and the next day. I mean, you know, you're paying attention to your journey. It's not a question of being self-centered. The furthest thing we need is more narcissism, more self-centeredness in our culture. We've got enough of that, and including it will be fine. Open communication, and open communication needs to be, we need to be much better expressing, much more open about where we're at, more self-disclosing, and we need to be better listeners, too. The stay connected during the anxious and difficult times when things aren't going well, we don't leave. We hang in there, we work it out, you know, and sometimes you may need a break. You know, you may need to step away for a little bit. I'm not saying you can go immediately and resolve something, but we eventually had to go and deal with it.

[58:16]

Whatever's causing us to disconnect. This next one is so critical, a profound respect for and valuing of differences. Notice, it doesn't say tolerate the differences. It says respect for and then valuing of the differences among us. Are you familiar with the work by Beatrice Bruteau? Do you know her? She has a book out. Her newest one is called The Grand Option. The Grand Option. And what she says in there is she says that the profound understanding, I think, she says to us, up till now, really the whole world has evolved with life attracting life, atoms to atoms, molecules to molecules, and we've had this incredible growth in this incredible evolving world. She said we are now at a point in time in history

[59:18]

where human person is faced with the ultimate or the grand option, which is we are being asked to connect across differences. Will we do it or won't we? And if you think about the world that we're in right now, whether we're talking about Muslim and Christian, whether we're talking about across other races, white and white, whether we're talking about men and women, this profound invitation to connect across differences. That the tent is big enough that can hold us with different viewpoints, different ideas about certain things. They think she's right on target, and it's a profound challenge for us. So the notion of differences, we're not going to tolerate them. We're going to value, appreciate them, and honor them, and welcome them. Mutuality, that give and take of self-disclosure and empathy, compassion. And if you like alliteration, the supple sense of self, that's translated in like three words.

[60:23]

You expect to change. That's what supple sense of self means. That when you're in relationship, you expect to change and grow and become better and more of a person. and more whole and more human by the interaction. So we want to be in intimate relationships with people. It's going to help us to become who we've all been meant to become from the very beginning. You know, we become who we're called to be in relationships. not in isolation. And remember that's the definition that, bring back to Ron Roheiser, that we've become, we are, it's James Nelson, it's God's invitation to become authentically human in connection, not in isolation. And that's exactly what this is saying. We're going to become authentically human in connection with one another. It's not a mistake that this group of men is here together. That part of your journey to becoming authentic is with one another. and with more intricacy in my work. That's what it says to me.

[61:26]

And then finally, the ability, notice these skills, these are other skills, to negotiate better, to compromise when necessary. Compromise isn't a dirty word unless that's all you do. I mean, if you're just one big compromise after another, you don't have a self then. But we do need to compromise sometimes, and we say, okay, for the good of the community, or for the good of the, that's all right, let's go there. It wouldn't be my first choice, but let's go. You know, we can do that, we're big enough to do that. And then finally, the notion of sacrifice. When we take on roles, This is not in any way to pat myself on the back, but to be truthful, the last thing I wanted to do was to be the major superior of my foundation. I didn't need it. I just wanted it. And it was clearly one of the huge change in my life to say yes to move from New York to St. Louis and to respond to that call. But I felt it was right to do it at the time. It was right to do, but it certainly was not a choice. It was nothing I ever wanted to do. It was not in my horizon.

[62:28]

But sometimes you sacrifice, and sometimes they're huge sacrifices, to take on a leadership role or to take on a formation role or to do any role that you do for the community. It requires that. Now, I want to show you this, and I don't think I did give you this, but this, just because we want to be fair, These are the rules for avoiding intimacy. So if you'd like to avoid intimacy, here they are. Here are the rules. We want to be fair and you get the other side. So you're ready? Here's the other side. The first one is always be pleasant. Now, I'm not saying to you, always be miserable. We're not talking like that. But if you're always pleasant, you know what I mean, then basically, I want to know, when did you stop being real, you know? Because some days, you know, you wake up and you've got a bad neck or whatever, or things didn't go well, or it's raining from the third day in a row, you know? I mean, those are... I mean, not that we're going to become miserable people, but, you know, it's sometimes things are not... things aren't pleasant. So, but if we always have to be... Notice that all in loving words, always.

[63:32]

You know, gets us into trouble. If conflict threatens withdrawal, leave. Go away. You know what I mean? Get out of here. Versus hang in there in the help and anxious times, which is what we're trying to say. When conflict happens, we need to deal with the conflict in a better way. Always keep busy. If we always keep busy, we don't have the ability to be authentic ourself. We don't have intimacy with self.

[63:55]

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