We'll talk this afternoon about attraction and sexual orientation. And those are just important topics, I think, for us to understand and to be aware of in our own lives, but also in the light of others. And really, we're all dealing with it at some level. So not to talk about attraction, Bruce, and I really don't have any handouts for this one. I don't have any slides I could bring in. But just to have a conversation with me about attraction and to talk about attraction. You know, what is it that happens? And just to name that, attractions to other people and so aversions to other people are pretty normal. You know, we like some people and we don't like some people. And again, what we do with those is obviously part of our calling, you know, to be healthy human beings and Christians, obviously. But it's normal to be attracted to some people and not to others. So what I'd like to talk a little bit about is why is it that we're attracted to some people? What is it about attraction? And we know some things. And we know, there's like five things I'd like to mention about why is it that I might be attracted to this person and not to this person?

[01:03]

Or in reverse, Why is it that this person is attracted to me and not to another one of the brothers in the house? What's happening there? And then this evening when we talk about boundaries, we'll talk about two other concepts of transference and counter-transference that also play in there. There's other things that come into play here about attraction. This we're just gonna talk about one of the five things that we know are related to how come some of us are attracted to each other and some of us might not be. The very first thing, has to do with situational variables. This is important for you to realize, especially with your own self, but also with other people. And what I mean by situational variables is there's two things. One of them is called proximity. And what I mean by that is that we feel more comfortable with people that we are familiar with. or that we know better. And so that's usually true. That it's also true we get attracted to strangers, but that's another piece. So one of the things about attraction is the more we see people, the more likely we learn to be attracted to them.

[02:10]

And so it's simply the principle of proximity. So the person who comes to the monastery, they come frequently. It's likely that you might become attracted to that person, not only for that reason, but there's a lot of reasons that were mentioned. So proximity is one. The other reason that has to do with the situation is kind of a little strange. It's called arousal. And what I mean by this is we're not talking about sexually being aroused, like you find a person attractive. We talk about easy on the eyes or something, that they're a beautiful woman or a good-looking man. It's not that kind of arousal. It's what's happening in you when you are aroused, and it has to do with things like loss, or something unexpected, some exciting thing happens. When we're aroused ourselves, then when we meet somebody, that person that we meet is likely to be more attractive than if we met them when we weren't in a state of being either sad or grieving or excited about something.

[03:14]

So it's an interesting phenomenon that happens to us. When we're kind of roused up inside, the person who comes into our life at that point will find more attractive than if we met them at another time, we might not have even noticed them. And so that's just a principle of arousal that has to do with... Yes, that has to do with my being excited about something that's totally different than the person that comes into that environment. Exactly. Exactly. Let's say, you know, something exciting happens for the monster, you know, something happens in the community that's really exciting and you're really enthused about, you know, and then somebody, some stranger comes up and visits the monster. They're likely to be more attractive at that given moment than had this been an ordinary day and calm, you know, nobody was really behind. So the notion of arousal, it doesn't mean, it doesn't mean erotic arousal. It means simply there's something going on in your life and it could be a cosmic thing. We're not so proud of them. That's the situational variables. Then we've talked to what we call person variables.

[04:14]

Who is this person that I'm being attracted to? And we're just doing this little section right here, right now. This is the outline for the central orientation piece, so just in case you're looking. When we talk about personal variables, we're talking, the very first thing we're talking about is their physical appearance. There's no doubt about it, but physical appearance does make a difference. It's interesting, the research says it makes more of a difference to men than it goes to women. Men are more attracted, more likely to be stimulated by physical than women are. And women look for other things other than the physical. It doesn't mean physical doesn't matter. It's simply that men seem to be more visually stimulated. And that's true, by the way, even with the internet, that visual stimulation, men are more visually stimulated. So we talk about the physical. and how important a role. Physical does play a role. But in addition to that, we talk about what's beautiful. Now, isn't that an interesting distinction? We talk about physical, and then we talk about what's considered beautiful.

[05:17]

In each culture, it has its own determination of what's beautiful. In some cultures, being a little bit rounder, being a little bit fuller, is a more attractive body than being thin and small and petite. So what's beautiful is culturally determined. And you have to know what's beautiful for you. If beautiful for you is very thin, and et cetera, then that's what's going to be attractive. But if beautiful for you is a more fuller figure, whether it's a man or woman, then you're going to be looking, that's what's considered more beautiful. And by the way, in our culture right now, for women, It used to be quite thin, and our models, for example, are like size four, which most women can't possibly be a size four. But right now, because of the Olympics and because of the women's sports things, to have a more muscular body, still not really a heavy person, but to have a more muscular body is considered beautiful. More beautiful than a thin, kind of frail look.

[06:18]

And so that's a shift in beauty in this country. The third thing has to do with character. The third thing that attracts us to people has to do with their character. What are the things that we like about them? So here's where we talk about honesty and love and generosity and whatever the qualities are. If you see those, there are certain qualities in you that you find attractive. When you see them lift out on another person, you're going to find that person more attractive. Or if you don't see them lift out, for example, if you value honesty, and you meet a dishonest person, the thing that you're going to want to do is back people away. You're not going to do it towards them, because it isn't what we matter. Okay, so that's, again, the whole notion of character, which has a lot to do with the audience, is important. Now, those are the person barriers. That's number two. The third thing that impacts our attraction to other people is what we call relationship variables. Relationship variables.

[07:18]

And they have to do with, the first one has to do with similarity. I mean, it's somewhat... similarity of interests, similarity of values. Interestingly enough, similarities of intelligence and similarities of psychological health. What we see is that people who are more psychologically healthy tend to want to be with people who are more psychologically healthy. And people who are a little bit more intelligent tend to want to be with people who are a little bit, you know, sort of meet them at the same level. And it's hard sometimes when the levels are not there because you can't, it's hard to communicate sometimes. So that's a similarity of interests, values, and background. And then the second one, he has to do with reciprocity. If the other person's attracted to you, you're likely to be attracted to them. If they wouldn't give you the time of day, you probably are not going to go there. You're going to shy away. And so if a person begins to let you know they like you, how do they do that? How do they do that? If somebody, you mean, if just somebody you started trying to advise to, they'd want to let you know that they like you, they're attracted to, how would they do that?

[08:25]

How would you know that somebody liked you in some fashion? I'm not talking about anything erotic or simply talking about who likes you. It's just an upbringing. How would you know? Absolutely. They kind of light up a bit when they know you're there. What else might they do? Compliments. Compliments. That's right. What else would they do? These are simple things that they let me know. They want to talk. They want to talk to you. Absolutely. So they're going to seek you out. They'll come and find you and say, if they have a question, they might ask you instead of asking somebody next to you. Again, showing some pictures, trying to make some connection, which is perfectly normal, healthy stuff that's happening. Okay, so that's... If you have a sense that they like you, it's going to be easier for you to be attracted to them. If you have a sense that they could give you the time of day, then you're not going to go there. That's what happens. We usually back off. And then finally, there's one last thing under relationship, and it has to do with needs, needs satisfaction, that we're attracted to people who are able to help meet our needs and who can help meet their needs.

[09:38]

And that sounds very utilitarian. The truth is that relationships do help meet needs. You know, that's not a bad thing. Now, if you're using people, that's another story. But that we meet others in each other's needs is normal. It's a human thing. Now, notice it fits as one element in a whole list of things. It's not, I'll be in relationship with you because you'll help me. You know, and that's all there is. It fits as one element, okay? So those are the relational variables. And then we have a fourth one. The fourth big category here is a readiness for the relationship. and wanting of the relationship and an opportunity to create a relationship, meaning you gotta have some time. So it will be conversations, a walk maybe, a private conversation. So that's that fourth element. The relationships, the attraction's gonna happen, and it has to be a readiness for it, you're interested yourself, you want to be connected to the other person, and as it says here, you'll also make some opportunity

[10:41]

to protect them. So by the way, you won't avoid them. You'll stay and meet the opportunity. And then the last five, the trick that he has to do with attraction. The fifth thing that he has to do with attraction has to do with just simply the notion of history. I can talk about all we want psychologically, of what we know happens in our relationship. And we just did. These are well-researched. The situations, the relationship variables, the person variables, the readiness, you can have all of that, and then can we explain all of the answers? No. There's a mystery. There's something else that happens. How come I, like you, and I'm attracted to you and would like to get to know you better, and I might nod to the person, I'm over here. How come that happened? Some of it is just plain mystery. So those are just some things about attraction. We're just simply talking about attraction in general to others. And what's really important is that you know, remember we talked about self-awareness this morning?

[11:47]

You need to know if you find someone attractive. First of all, it's very normal. It's very healthy. And then you have to say, well, what am I going to do with the attraction? And there's where you have to make good choices that fit with who we say we are. And it doesn't mean... that you don't connect with the person. For example, if you find somebody tragic who visits and comes, that you spend some time with them and have a conversation with them, absolutely, it's about connection. It's a good use of your sexual energy to connect with the person. The thing is, you have to remember who you are and that, you know, this is the date. You're not looking for some other thing in the relationship. You're talking about a friendship that has clear limits and boundaries, which we're going to talk about this evening. But you don't want to avoid the relationship. You just have to be aware of it and then make choices that fit in who we say we are. Now, when another person has a lot of attraction, what happens when a person is attracted to you and you're not connected? And that can happen, especially as you are here, while people come and want to connect with you.

[12:49]

And it's not possible to connect with all those folks, right? And it's just not physically. psychologically possible. So those are times when you might feel pressured or you might feel like men will be talking about boundaries. How do you deal with that when people keep coming at you maybe? And because of who you are in your own life and your own personal story, it's not something that's going to be reciprocal. And that can be painful people. People can feel hurt if you don't respond always. And so we'll talk about that tonight when we talk about that. Crucial power and attraction, just what happens to us is we're very human persons, very normal stuff. We should expect it, as we were talking about this morning, if we're not dead from the neck down, then we will experience attraction and other people will be attracted to us. for various reasons, including some unconscious stuff, which all of us are conscious that we're going to talk about tonight when we talk about transverse. That's an unconscious attraction that usually has to do with some unfinished business. So we're going to talk about that one tonight when we talk about boundaries.

[13:51]

Okay? Any questions on attraction? We're going to look at sexual orientation next. Anything you'd like me to just say a little bit more about attraction? It's fine. It's normal. It'll happen to us. It happens all along. I mean, to just be prepared, to be aware of it. First, be aware, and then secondly, handle it in the best, in a healthy way. Yeah. Oh, a quick one that has probably included, you know, the idea of supplying these, perhaps, that opposites attract, that isn't there a kind of theory, in the orientation theory, at least, that, uh, I see my fulfillment in another person. That's a very good point. That's a very good point. That is true. Sometimes that is, in fact, true. We're distracted to what we don't have ourselves, what we're looking for. And sometimes what people do with that is they mistake the messenger for the message.

[14:54]

And the point is there is sometimes if you find somebody attractive and they're quite different from you, What you may be invited to is to develop that thing in your own self rather than have them be in their life to supply it. You know what I mean? It's like if you're attracted to a person who handles their feelings well. And you say, wouldn't that be great? I'd love to be like Jennifer. I'd love to be like Mary, you know, who they handle their feelings well. They know what they feel very well. So there's a real interaction with this opposite person if you're not handling your feelings well. Let's just make that up as an example. So you want to be with them. The point is, though, you want to learn from them and be able to handle your feelings better. That's the invitation, not to have them be in your life so they can handle feelings, including yours. So you're absolutely right. We do get attracted to opposites as well. And sometimes it's the very thing we're being invited to grow in ourselves. So a good question is, it's called the golden shadow.

[15:57]

What do you admire in another person? And is that the invitation to develop that very aspect in yourself? It's good to admire. It doesn't mean they only have it. But sometimes it's an invitation for us to develop ourselves. So it's a good thing. If you admire something in somebody else, what is it? And is that the thing you're being invited to yourself? And it's the way God sends messengers to us. Really, the messengers that are right here inviting us to hope us, to loving ourselves better. And it's in one another. So what are you saying? But you bring that target. We do the opposite of stewardship. And then by the way, with couples, I've done a fair amount of couples work. The thing that they like most about the other person, they spend the next 25 years trying to change them. I mean, seriously, we try and make them like ourselves rather than continuing to admire and learn from it and develop that piece, you know? So it's a little tricky. What we do with difference is we start trying to change people, which I think you probably are wise enough to know the only person who has the slightest chance of changing is yourself.

[17:04]

I mean... We have no gospel to change anything. Even people like me who are supposed to know something about behavior. We can't change anybody. We can only change ourselves. And that is difficult enough. Does that help? So right on time. Thank you for raising that. That's another component here about opposites and all. What about the attraction that a woman has towards the male who may be a father like him or a male like a mother like him, isn't it? And then when there's not, you know, what I've learned about, there's psychological... Well, that's probably very much related to the notion of transference, which is what we're going to talk about, is that what we do is we look for in a person because in some ways they resemble, and it's not necessarily physically, we sort of substitute them for a relationship that wasn't complete, for example, or it could have been a very private relationship.

[18:17]

For example, if you really had a good relationship, let's talk about you, we'll just make this up, you had a really good relationship with your mother. And so therefore, you really admired her and had a really good relationship with her. You could then be in a relationship with another woman who you see unconsciously. This is not conscious. You see as someone like your lover. And so you admire her and you really don't see her. You see who you think she is. You know what I mean? So it's really not a real relationship with a real person because in a sense, she's substituting. for the mother that you so invited. It could also be a member. It could also be in the negative. You had a terrible relationship with your mother. And so therefore, with other women, you're like, if they somehow resemble your mother, and I don't mean physically, no, somehow they come into your life, and you see them like your mother, you'll have a terrible relationship with her as well. And it has nothing to do with her. It's herself representing the unfinished business or the relationship that happened before.

[19:20]

So that's transference. The current relationship is related to an old relationship that's unfinished. So we're substituting one for the other. And you have to be mindful of that. And you have to really pay attention. Because all of a sudden you might find yourself reacting to the person. For example, you're reacting to the person and you hardly know them. And it's why. It's this old relationship coming in and playing itself out in the present. So that's called transference. We'll talk a little bit more about that. But yes, that can happen. So you have to be mindful. Is it this person that I'm reacting to? Is it this person I'm attracted to? Or is this an old relationship that's coming up in the person of this person right here? And that's very important to know. And it's good to know when you're reacting. If you find yourself reacting, especially maybe overreacting, you may want to pay attention. Is it really this person? Or is it something old from unfinished stuff that's being played out? Especially if it's a negative reaction, okay?

[20:21]

Okay, an attraction? Just good to know, and this is normal stuff, and it looks to the best of us. You will be very attractive to, I think, a lot of people, both men and women, And I'm not talking about it in a sexual or erotic way, but just because of who you are and who you represent and the goodness and the gentleness at which you come at life, people will become attracted to you. So it's important that you know and that you're aware of it and then what you do with it. And then also, we'll talk tonight, that you'd be aware of when it's about something else. It's really not about you. You just happen to represent those things. Those are tougher. Those transference ones are tougher to deal with. What I'd like to do now is just talk a little bit about sexual orientation. I'd like to talk about what is it, what causes it, as best we know. Something about discerning or discovering an orientation. Talk about some phases of coming out, of paying, and understanding your own orientation. And then the spiritual dimension, and particularly the real challenge of really walking with an orientation.

[21:31]

The first thing we'll say is everybody in the room has an orientation. Everybody has one. And what you need to know is this is what we're talking about. To whom are you attracted? And so we say, well, what is orientation? And I'd like to define it this way. And so we can keep it right. It really has to do with attraction. And now we're talking about gender gets in here. Now we're talking about its attraction to either the same sex, the opposite sex, or to both sexes. And what we're really talking about here is what I'm finding. We're talking about sexual orientation. It really refers to a person's emotional, romantic, affectionate, physical, and erratic. Look at all those ways of being attracted. It refers to a person's emotional attraction,

[22:33]

a romantic attraction, an affectionate attraction, a physical attraction, and an erotic attraction. So there's lots of components. It isn't always all of them at the same time. So it's an attraction to either members of the same sex, the opposite sex, or to both sexes. So those are the dimensions again. Emotional, romantic, affectionate, physical, erotic. Those are the parts. And so what we're saying is that everybody is attracted to, we're attracted to other people, either the same sex or the opposite sex or both sexes. And what it looks like, the best way we can talk about it is to look at a continuum. And so they drew it out here. Where we have some of us are predominantly, and that means more than not, but notice it doesn't say exclusively. because exclusively would be off the charts over here. So we're saying we're predominantly same-sexed, to have a same-sex attraction.

[23:38]

So for me, if I was over here, I would be predominantly, more likely than not, attracted to women, persons of my same-sex. For you, you'd be more than likely to be attracted to persons of your same-sex. That's what this means. If you find yourself on this end, you can tell. The additional word that could use... for same-sex attraction is homosexual. So if we said a person was down here, let's say right here on the continuum, we'd say the person has a homosexual or same-sex attraction. That's all the word means, except it's got such a connotation. But the word means same-sex. So I like to use the the lived reality, attraction to the same sex, the term is homosexual. So some people are predominantly more than not attracted to people of the same sex. On the other end of the spectrum, we have persons who are predominantly attracted to the other sex, and we just use the word that says that, heterosexual.

[24:48]

And that's all it means, is hetero means other, just like homo means same. So the words are simply just trying to describe the attraction, okay? Heterosexual, homosexual. And then persons who are attracted to both senses, the term we use is bisexual. Bisexual. Now here's where, this is a controversial topic, at least for some, for other people, we've made some moves to say, here's what we understand about it right now. Notice I did not use the word preference. I use the word attraction or sexual orientation. Because the best information we have right now, and I think I read a lot of the scientific stuff is doing as well as psychological stuff, is that people do not choose where they are in this continuum. But there are a number of factors that come together to help create an orientation.

[25:52]

So I don't choose to be here, or [...] here. But I could be in any one of those places. So it's not a choice when we talk about orientation. What we're talking about here is discovering or discerning your orientation. And then, of course, accepting that and living with a technique. That's the journey, and that's a powerful journey of awareness, discovering one's orientation, accepting one's orientation, and living with integrity. Now, what I understand and what I would say the majority of the psychological community says is anything on this continuum is normal and healthy. or potentially not. But not just, in the old thinking, and for some people it still is, people consider this part of a year normal, and all of this deviant.

[27:04]

That's the old thinking I'd like to suggest. And newer thinking says that people can be any place along the continuum, and live a healthy life, depending on obviously the choices they make. So the point is, orientation is not a cause of health or ill health. It's how people live out of their orientation. And the journey of living out of it is one of awareness, acceptance, and living with integrity. It's a three-point. And by the way, that's true for this person here, for the heterosexual person, too. Once I'm aware that, oh, I'm attracted to women, I'm attracted to men, I'm attracted to the opposite sex. That's the awareness. Acceptance, a little easier to accept this orientation. Why? This is considered the norm. And we live in a heterosexist culture. And what that means is this is considered normative or healthy. And this is considered deviant by a lot of people. So therefore, it's easy to say, oh, I'm heterosexual and accept that.

[28:07]

It's much easier. These folks have a little bit more difficult journey because for a lot of people, they're considered deviant. So for them to say, okay, I'm bisexual or I'm homosexual, have a homosexual orientation, to say I'm okay is a more tough journey. And I'll read a little passage from James Allison. I noticed you have one of his books downstairs, Raising Abel, you know, the book on eschatology. But he's a moral religion and he's written a powerful book. If you want to read something about personal journey, and it's only part of the book, but it's called Faith Beyond Resentment, or Faith Without, yeah, Faith Beyond Resentment is one of his latest books, and it talks about this particular, I'll read a passage from it. Now, what I just said here gave me just totally an example to you. You may not believe, you know, and all I'm saying is, If you understand what I'm saying, you don't have to accept it.

[29:08]

It's just, this is what the current meaning is for the most part in the psychological, psychiatric community for most of us. Now, there is a group of people, including the Catholic Medical Association, that says, really, this remains debiant, and what we ought to do is try to change these people and bring them over here. I certainly don't hold that. That's not been my experience as a clinician. And it's not been the experience of many of the clinicians that I work with. What we want to say is, you discover where you are, you accept that, and you will limit everything. That's a more authentic journey, I think. There is some research that says you can change people. That's not been my experience, but there are some cases And we ought to look at those and honestly appraise them and look at them and to see, you know, this is still a learning area, but my experience has been that a person has to discover where they are in the interaction continuum and accept that and live with integrity.

[30:12]

And that's not an easy journey. Now, if people say to you, well, what causes this? How come there are two people in the same family? I just noticed there's a new book out by Richard Chamberlain, you know, the man who played Shogun and Dr. What was the name? Dr. Shogun. Shogun. Shogun. You know, these are the books that talks about his being a gay man, but it talks about his story. And it talks tremendously about a father who was very harsh and dismissive of him and an alcoholic and he talks about a very difficult family life. And so he said, some people say, well, see, he's in this, the article they're trying to say that he's really not, you know, that's really the cause of it. And if it was addressed early, he wouldn't be a gay man. Well, let's talk about cause then because it's really important. Here's what we know up till now. Remember we said we're going to be learners together and learn. Here's what we believe up till now. So what causes not just this orientation or this orientation, but any orientation,

[31:15]

What are the factors that come together to create an orientation? How come somebody will line up here, not here, or here, or here? That's the question. Here's what we understand so far. And by the way, I wish this were clearer, but it's a little muddy, but this is what we understand so far. More than likely, there is something in the genetic line, and it doesn't mean there's just particular gene that exists, and therefore a person is going to have a same-sex or bisexual orientation, but in fact there's probably something that we call a predisposing factor, that there probably is something in the genetic area that is likely to predispose this person differently than this person. There is something, but can we identify, do we know its exactness and the answer as far as I know it, no. The second thing that happens, so by the way, the predisposing factor is also a predisposing factor here.

[32:20]

There's a predisposing factor to be at this point of the conclusion and predisposing to be here. The other one that has to do with biology has to do with hormones. And the endocrinologists are working now to talk about the impact they believe of perhaps the mothers, the hormones during the pregnancy that a woman has impacting differently on a child. And so that one child may be born with a same-sex orientation and another child here, why? Because the mothers hormones during the pregnancy were different. So the endocrinologists are looking at hormonal influences. on the developing fetus, on the developing. That's another factor. Another factor that seems to be true, by the way, those seem to be the predisposing factors. So we've got some things that predispose. And then here comes what we talk about is the nature stuff. Excuse me, the nurture stuff.

[33:22]

And that is, there are some experiences that can happen that seem to influence. One of them, interestingly enough, is that atypical interest pattern. Let me say those words again. Atypical, not typical interest pattern. So if you have a little girl, for example, who is, you know, we used to call one of the old days tomboys, into sports, into climbing the trees, doesn't want to doubt, doesn't want anything to do with doubts, wants to climb trees and be into sports. That would be atypical for what we consider a girl's thing. Then we have boys who are atypical. So we have the boy who is a quieter. He's not as aggressive. He's a little bit more interested in music and art. So we have an atypical interest pattern. He's just interested in different things. Depending on how that's responded to could be an influence. So he has an atypical interest pattern, but how it's responded to could be another factor here.

[34:25]

And so part of what we're seeing here is some combination of physical biological, predisposing kinds of things, plus some factors. And the factors that still seem as one is this acypical pattern, plus any kind of abuse or neglect. And that's some of the newer data, that abuse, physical abuse, neglect, or sexual abuse is having an impact on sexuality in any of the games sexual orientation as one of the aspects of its impact. It impacts other aspects of sexuality as well. And that's some of the new research where they're talking about not even physical abuse, but we're talking about neglect or, excuse me, not even sexual abuse, we're talking about neglect or physical abuse having an impact on women's sexuality. One of the areas could be sexual orientation if other factors are in place.

[35:27]

So you notice I'm saying if this plus this it will equal some place on this continuum. Very complex. It's not a simple thing. And basically what I would like to say is the best information that I have and I wanted to share with you is it's not a choice. It's a question of discovering what my attraction, to whom I'm attracted, and then accepting that and living with integrity. And it's a complex set of factors that come together. We stopped for a minute and said, Any questions so far? We just talked about what is it and what the causes are as best as I understand. So let me say, well, you'd have to admit, if you're in the majority or what's considered normal, then this person living out of their life is going to be a little easier. A person who's considered, who is a heterosexual person.

[36:28]

will have a little bit easier time. I didn't say easy, but a little easier time in dealing with their attraction and being in relationships. People who are here are going to have a little bit more difficulty. Why? Because they're considered deviant. They consider themselves deviant sometimes. They don't like themselves. So the struggle, it's a tremendous journey. a transformative journey, and you may be involved in a journey. And I don't mean just because of your personal journey, but people may be coming to you to talk about this. So it's such a critical thing that we understand it and have some real understanding of how to be hopeful. So I'd like to talk about three passages, three major passages that persons here are more likely to engage in, and they may be inviting you into this passage. And if you can understand it, it might be quite helpful. The first passage, and we're talking about the passage of awareness and acceptance. That's what we're really talking about here. The first passage is what's called the interior passage.

[37:32]

The interior passage. And when we say, well, what's the interior passage, Bob? The interior passage is the person's awareness, that striking awareness that they are attracted to and they are attracted to. And it really is a significant passage. that oftentimes they'll want to talk about it, they'll seek somebody, they might be very ashamed about it, if they hide it for years, and then they might talk about it in confession, for example, sacrament of reconciliation, or they might, if they turn to trust you, talk about it face-to-face, especially in culture that says, this is deviant, this is not okay, there's something wrong with you, if you're attracted to persons of the same sex, or if you have a both-sex orientation. But the interior passage, what's interesting about the interior passage is it's absolutely an essential passage because it has to do with identity. It's part of one's identity to know to whom you are attracted.

[38:45]

And that's a critical journey that we're on. I'm going to just show you, just stop for a minute, and I want to talk about four human needs and to show you how important this passage is. When we talk about us as human beings, you know, the original, the basic human needs of safety and trust, those are very important, and those are bottom line, food, shelter, clothing, safety. Most of us have, we all have those, you know. But then there are a little bit higher order needs. There are four human needs that we need to meet. And by the way, you need to meet them in community. And I don't mean that they're all met. But these are human needs, adult human needs. These are adult needs. And these must be met for people who are the healthy ones. And the first one is this one. Is identity. So... It is important that in our journey to be whole, to be healthy human beings, and the people who come to talk to you, that they know who they are.

[39:49]

And one piece, only one piece of knowing who they are is their sexual orientation. One of the difficulties in our culture right now is we equate identity with sexual orientation, don't we? Even little people say, I'm gay, or I'm a lesbian. So they equate themselves with their orientation. They make them equal. Identity is bigger than my orientation, but it includes my orientation. Does that make sense? So part of what our journey is, is to be aware of what an orientation is, but not to make myself equal to my orientation. It's about part of who I am. But knowing what your orientation is, is a part of the identity journey, and it's an important one. You need to know. So everybody needs to ask and answer the question. Let me show you the other four human needs, though. The identity is another one. Achievement is the second one. And when we're talking about achievement, we're talking about our lives mattering. We want our lives to matter.

[40:51]

We want to make a difference. You know, we want to not just live here and we come and go and pass and we die and make a difference. Now, that doesn't mean we have to build buildings. It doesn't mean we have to get all kinds of awards. But we need to know that our life matters. Remember I said we give our gifts and service. So achievement, you need to know your life matters. So how does your life matter today, when you're washing with dishes? You need to know that your life matters. So this is an important need, and usually we need it in our ministry, the work we do, making things happen, and if we don't, we'll compete with one another in community. We'll find about where the sunshakers go on the table, or how the dishes go on the dish wall. You know, I mean, those are the kinds of things we get into battles with each other because we're not achieving in our, we're not feeling good about what we're doing. The third need, and this is the one we're going to talk about tomorrow, is intimacy. It's not optional. Remember we said that.

[41:51]

It's for human beings. And then the fourth one, because we're going to talk about it, is generativity. Generativity is where we foster growth in life of younger people and the next generation, you know. So even when we recycle, and I noticed that, you know, strict recycling once, I was reading my notes down there, getting the stuff in the right bins, you know. But even when we do that, why didn't we do that? We do that because the environment needs to be protected. Why? So we can pass it on. Those are acts of generativity when we do those things. So generating new life, when we mentor a new member, or we mentor younger people. So these are very important human needs that we have in our life. We don't get rid of them because we join religious life. So going back here, the reason why this interior passage is important is it fits under identity. It's a part of a person's identity. They need to know to whom they are at.

[42:52]

Make sense? And they need to include that in their life. But we don't want to equate that with their life. That's one of the big mistakes I think that's happening now. Henry Nileland talks about this passage. Listen to the sentence he says. He says that this interior passage is a passage from self-denial, which is the most, it's very un-Christian, to self-availability. So self-denial. His self-availability. This is a part of pain. And he says it's unchristian to deny your peace of yourself here. So this is the interior passage. And then the second passage that we talked about is called the social passage. The social passage. And what this means is, and listen to this, how carefully I would work this. It says, somebody else needs to know about this part of me.

[43:54]

I want to share this with somebody else. Now, it didn't say go stand on a corner and work a sign. But it said it's important that I be able to share this part of my life with significant people. Not everybody, but with some significant people. So what this second passage is about is a passage of intimacy. Because part of what it means to be infinite is to be able to speak the truth, to be able to be emotionally honest with somebody else. So it doesn't mean you shove it in somebody's face. It doesn't mean, but it is, can I say this? And it would be part of a relationship. You know, you wouldn't just put it, say it. So you'd be saying, you know, I find myself attracted to, and it would be part of a relationship, and you can do that, and it's part of the passage of intimacy. It's very important. And so what I want to say is, by the way, the Whiteheads, you know you're with the Whiteheads? They've been around for years. Evelyn and Jim Whitehead, do you know them? They do a lot of work in the area of marriage and sexuality.

[44:59]

Jim and Evelyn, they're the ones who talk about these three passages. And they say, and I agree with them, that these first two passages are absolutely essential for every person. Knowing my orientation, identifying myself, and accepting its identity and acceptance. is sharing that with significant people when it's important to do that. Then the third passage is the one that not everybody should do. Of course, it depends on who you're talking to, whether everybody should do this. This is the public passage. The public passage. That I'm really out, and I tell people, I tell everybody and anybody, and I might publish that, you know, I might say, do a lot more public work about that. If I was a lesbian woman, I would say, I'm a lesbian woman. You know, I would tell you all of that. Every time I did a presentation, I would identify myself that way. He said, well, why would a person do that? Especially in a culture that's quite anti, you know, it has some real feelings about this. Well, the person would do it. They couldn't do it because they don't care.

[46:00]

It's self-destructive. Or they might do it, as some people do, to really force the conversation that says persons with the same-sex orientation are normal people. I'm not the... I just want you to know that. But this public passage, each one of them is more risk-taking, isn't it? This is just me, or maybe me as a spiritual director, me as a counselor. This is me and some people. It's more risky. And this is me and anybody. And so it becomes more and more risky. You're more vulnerable the more you do those things. So my experience has been, and I've walked with a number of people who have a same or bisexual orientation. The first two passages are very, very important. The third passage is for a few people who are willing to take the risk, and it's a huge risk, especially at this point. I wouldn't recommend it unless you've really thought that through that loss or be ready to do. So that's the important. I'd like to share just two little readings, and then we'll stop and see what kind of questions you have. Then two little sharings.

[47:00]

One of them has to do with the public passage, and it has to do with This was published in the U.S. Catholic in February of 2003, so last year. And it says, one gay priest's story. And he talks about being a priest and his journey to be a healthy, homosexual priest who lived a life, particularly. And this is his latest paragraph. He talks differently. He says, I apologize for using a pseudonym. He uses a false name when he writes the article. When he said... Coming out is a very personal and sacred decision, an expression of profound trust. I've openly discussed my sexuality and my spirituality with people in person, but these are dangerous times of struggle, and I will not empower those who seek to harm us. So he's saying, I refuse to identify myself publicly.

[48:04]

because of the backlash that things that will happen. So he chooses not to, but he still writes the story, what it's like to be a gay priest in the stories that he hears. So that's one thing, you know, it's public passage, it's challenging, you would not do that unless you were really thought that through thoroughly and are willing to live with the consequences, so there are some, you know. Right now, the whole notion of same-sex orientation in seminary is up for grabs, depends on where you are. There are some bishops who have made it very clear, if you let us know that you have a same-sex orientation, you're gone. You will not be ordained. You will be dismissed from a seminary. Other bishops have not said that, and now working with seminary staff to say a person with a same-sex orientation needs to be the same criteria as a person with an opposite-sex orientation, and we need to take the one at the time. So it depends on where you're at, you know, what diocese you're at and whether you can talk about it or not.

[49:05]

Some religious congregations are very open, know that some of their candidates are homosexual or have the same sex orientation and are working with them. A critical question is, and Donna Markham from Southbound wrote a good article, she said it shouldn't be a question of orientation, it should be a question of integration. Have they integrated their, can they live a celibate life?

[49:27]

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