Welcome, everyone. Can you all hear me? Great. So there's still a few people who are signed up. who haven't appeared, but I'll start in a minute or two anyway. And a couple of you have did not sign up. So would you please, so afterwards it's okay. Just go to our website and sign up for this. And it's all sliding scale. So don't let finances be an obstacle. Just checking here. Okay, well, I'll start.

[01:32]

There's still a handful of people who are signed up and may show up. But I'll get us started. So welcome, everyone. Today, we're going to talk about Huayen Buddhism. So there's a lot of material I want to present. And we'll see how it goes. So just to give you a sense of what the material is that we're going to be looking at. First, I'll just do it. Well, we're going to jump right in with looking at Huayen dialectics after a brief introduction to the Flower Ornament on the Tamsaka Sutra. So we'll look at the Huayen Fourfold Dharmadhatu, which is in some ways, the heart of Huayen Buddhism. Then I'm going to look further at the flower ornament of a Tamsaka Sutra that inspired Huayen Buddhism.

[02:39]

And I'll read some excerpts from that. And then I'm going to present the Huayen ancestors, the five great Huayen patriarchs, they're often called, but the five great Huayen ancestors who were scholarly commentators, scholar monks who present, who elaborated on systemic qualities of the Huayen Sutra. And so then after that, I'm going to do some readings from these Huayen ancestors, which in many ways is the heart of this presentation. So a lot of material from Fa Zong and some from Shen Guan. So we'll get to that. And then I want to talk about, at some point in there, we'll have a little break. We'll have some discussion.

[03:42]

So we'll have a couple of discussion periods halfway through and at the end, after the readings from the Huayen ancestors, I'll talk about the practice implications of Huayen. which is important to us as a practice tradition. And then I'm going to talk about Japanese Kegon. The Kegon is the, so just to introduce terms since for many of you, this is all familiar, but the Flower Ornament or Avatamsaka Sutra is translated into Chinese as Huayen. And then there's the Huayen school, which came from it. And in Japanese, Huayen is Kegon. So there's the Kegon school in Japan, which is still there. And then I want to talk about the impact of all of this on Soto Zen. So that's the table of contents as it were, the summary. So, Again, welcome everyone.

[04:45]

Still expecting a couple more people to show up. Okay, so just to say a little bit about the Avatamsaka Sutra as background. So the Avatamsaka Sutra is this massive very flowery, psychedelic scripture, the words of the Buddha, as it were, that presents Bodhisattva activity and teachings and This Avatamsaka Sutra is said to be the first teaching right after the Great Awakening of Shakyamuni Buddha. It was given under the Bodhi tree. Sometimes it said that it was given over 14 days. Again, it's a massive sutra in the translation by Thomas Cleary, which we're fortunate to have.

[06:00]

It's 1,500 or so pages. Very thick and there's a lot there, but it's not a didactic text at all. So Huayen school in China is based on it, but the Huayen school presents systemic digestions or expressions coming out of the Avatamsaka Sutra. But the Avatamsaka Sutra itself is a Samadhi text. It's very flowery. It presents the the teachings of the Bodhisattvas in all kinds of ways. But it also is full of names of bodhisattvas, names of samadhis, names of Buddha realms. And so it's kind of trance-like. It inspires samadhi states. We're doing readings of the Flower Ornament Sutra the first Friday night of every month here on this website.

[07:07]

And you're all welcome. It's from, I think, 7 to 8.30. Dylan and Jason who are here are kind of manage that so to get a taste of the Flower Ornament Sutra you can just drop in anytime the first Friday evening of the month. At any rate it's said to be as I said the teaching right after Shakyamuni Buddha's awakening it's often said to be have been spoken by Vairochana Buddha, the Dharmakaya, who we'll talk about more, who's the main Buddha of the Flower Ornament Sutra. There are many, many bodhisattvas in the Flower Ornament Sutra. Samantabhadra, the bodhisattva of practice and activity, is probably the foremost in there, and I'll talk about those figures. So there are two chapters of the Flower Ornament Sutra that are considered separate sutras. The Dasa Bhumika, which is translated often as the Ten Stages Sutra, which is one of the earliest Mahayana sutras.

[08:15]

It may be a little after 200 BCE. And that's one of the chapters of the larger Flower Ornament Sutra, but also a separate sutra. Also another separate sutra is the Gandha Vyuha, which is the last or 39th chapter of the whole Flower Ornament Sutra. It's the longest chapter. And I'll be talking more about that, that Sutra and reading, doing some readings from it. That Gandavyuha chapter clearly translates it into as entry into the realm of reality. So there were translations from Sanskrit into Chinese, various times of various sections of the Sutra, sometimes of particular chapters. But the two main translations into the Chinese of the entire Avatamsaka Sutra were from Buddha Bhadra, who states are 359 to 429, and from Sheik Shenanda, who was from 652 to 710.

[09:21]

There will not be a test, so I'm just giving this information for whomever's interested. But the translation by Thomas Cleary, which I just showed you, which we're very fortunate to have, the English version, comes from the translation by Sheik Shenanda. in the late 600s, early 700s. It's a little, that's a bit longer than the earlier one. So that's a little bit of introduction into the Avatamsaka Sutra. So as a process we will be having two Q&A or discussion sections, but if you have particular questions about anything, please feel free to put them in the chat as we go. Please try and keep them brief and concise so we can, and we'll have them as part of the Q&A. So that's a little bit about the Flower Ornament Sutra itself.

[10:23]

The Huayen school, which developed in China based on the Flower Ornament Sutra is a very different kind of discourse. And the Flower Ornament Sutra, as I said, is very flowery, and it's really a Samadhi text. It inspires Samadhi just because of its translate quality and its profusion of imagery. The Huayen school, based on it, is a very different kind of has very different kinds of texts. The Huayen school presents lots of systemic and systematic commentaries on the meaning of the Flower Ornament Sutra. So the Huayen school teachers, and I'll put them up in a little bit,

[11:26]

basically took from the imagery of the Flower Ornament Sutra many presentations, usually in sets of 10. 10 is a big number in the Flower Ornament Sutra and in Huayen. So there's all these 10, 10 lists of 10s throughout the Huayen literature. And the Huayen literature is vast. It's these six, well, five plus two commentators were scholar monks who wrote many texts about commenting on the Flower Ornament Sutra. So it's a huge body of texts. I'm going to be reading from a couple sources about them, but the main book that we have in English about them is from Tom Cleary, who did the Flower Ornament Sutra called Entry into the Inconceivable. And I'll be, we'll be posting a bibliography towards the end of various texts to look at.

[12:32]

So, yes, so, One of the main teachings of the Huayen school is the Fourfold Dharmadhatu. So am I going too fast for people? I wanna try and cover this material, but also have time for people to hear it. So the Fourfold Dharmadhatu is the key teaching of Huayen Buddhism. And its background, so Dharmadhatu means reality realms. Dharma is truth or reality or teaching. Dhatu means a realm, like the Dharmadhatu is, the whole Dharmadhatu is the whole universe seen as teaching, seen as awakening teaching. So the fourfold Dharmadhatu, from the Huayen teachers is based on the two truths doctrine from the Madhyamaka school in India which was the school of Nagarjuna and the teaching of emptiness.

[13:45]

So how many of you know about the two truths or how many of you do not know about the two truths? Okay. Sophia and Jason and yeah, several hands. Okay. So the two truths is a basic, basic, important Buddhist teaching. The two truths are basically this background. And first there's the conventional or mundane or phenomenal reality or truth. So that's our usual way of seeing the world. The second truth is the ultimate or universal truth. So the two truths are a basic format for understanding all of Buddhist teaching, and especially all of East Asian Buddhist teaching, and in some ways the basis of the Fourfold Dharma Tantra. So there are these two sides, conventional, ultimate, phenomenal reality, our everyday reality, the relative side.

[14:49]

And then there's the ultimate or universal underlying, or, well, they're simultaneous actually, but actually they're both true. They're both realities. And it's important to honor both the ultimate and the conventional. We get, have some, get some sense of the ultimate universal reality through our practice. through sustained Zazen practice, we have some sense of the underlying wholeness of things. This is the ultimate or universal reality. So some of you have heard me talk about this a lot. I'm glad to see so many people from ancient dragons that gate, but also people from all over other places Washington state and Virginia. And I mean, there's people from lots of places here. So welcome Texas anyway. Welcome all. So the two truths is this background.

[15:50]

Now the fourfold Dharmadhatu. And David, at this point, would you please screen share that? So I've mentioned the two truths as the background. conventional or mundane or worldly truth, phenomenal truth, and the ultimate and universal truth, which is sometimes said to be in the background, but actually they're both simultaneous. They're actually from Mahayana perspective, they're not separate. Okay, within the Huayen school in China, they developed this fourfold Dharmadhatu. It comes from Dushan, who was the first Huayen ancestor, and I'll post all of those. And Chengguan, who was the fourth, later added to that. So these four... aspects of reality, the four dharma dhātus. In Chinese, shì is the first one, which is phenomenal events.

[16:54]

This is like the one of the two truths, the mundane, worldly, conventional reality, shì. The second one in Chinese is lì, which literally translates as principle. But this is also a way of talking about the ultimate or universal reality or truth. So these are the first two which set up the whole thing. The third of the four Dharmadhatus is the mutual non-obstruction of Li and Xu. So this is very important. This is about how, and I'll be reading some things about this, how the ultimate, the principle, universal truth and the phenomenal reality that we all know are They're mutually non-obstructive is the way it's framed in Huayen, but this means that they're not separate at all.

[18:06]

There's a mutuality between the ultimate and the phenomenal or vice versa. And they don't obstruct each other either. So these four Dhammadhatus are based on a lot of the images and metaphors that are expressed in the Flower Ornament, Ravatamsaka Sutra, but then the Huayen teachers provided a systemic, systematic way of looking at it. So this third Dharmadhatu, the mutual non-obstruction of the ultimate or conventional, or the conventional and the ultimate, is a kind of preparation for the fourth Dharmadhatu, which is the mutual non-obstruction of shi and shi, that phenomena, the particulars of phenomena are mutual and don't obstruct each other.

[19:10]

So I think this is difficult for us to see in our time and culture when there is so much division and it's hard to see how the different phenomena and particulars of our world are totally integrated, so to speak, one with the other and don't obstruct each other. So this is the basic framework. of Huayen teaching, this Fourfold Dharmadhatu. And I'll pause at this point and, you know, ask if there are any brief questions about, about this. If David, if there's anything in the chat that's relevant to this or anybody else, mostly I'm going to just keep this to two discussions periods, but I wanted to just check in on this very important basic teaching of Huayen, if there's any comments or questions. We do have two questions that have come up in chat, Taigen.

[20:14]

The first one is from early on. The question is, is there, this is Reiren's question, is there a translation of the Avatamsaka Sutra into Tibetan? I am not certain. I believe there is. It's not, was not an important scripture in Tibetan Buddhism. It probably is part of Tibetan Buddhism, but it's not. This is developed in East Asian Buddhism, particularly, not Tibetan. And then the second question is from Risa Mandel, who asks, isn't the universal simultaneously expressed as phenomena with relative truth? Yeah, exactly. That's the whole point. That they're not separate. That the, you know, to put it in terms that Dogen talks about, delusion and awakening are not separate at all. awakening is the expression of delusion and vice versa. So the non-separation of the ultimate and the phenomenal or the particulars is exactly the point of Huayen Buddhism and actually of Soto Zen as well.

[21:21]

So yes. Okay. So I'm going to proceed then unless there's any, does anybody want to raise their hand if you have a brief question? Okay. Moving on then. I want to talk about interconnectedness. This, this is the third aspect of the Huayen Fourfold Dharmadhatu, the mutual non-obstruction or interpenetration of the universal and the particular. So just to say some things about this, the universal truth can only exist in the context of some particular situation. there is no abstract universal truth in some heavenly realm apart from its active presence in a particular circumstance and some specific causal condition. So this is fundamental, they're not separate as Rizu was asking about.

[22:23]

Every individual particular context when fully examined completely expresses the total universal truth. The particular being or event and its universal aspect completely interact and coincide without hindering each other. That's the mutual non-obstruction in the Third Dharmadhatu. So there are lots of images of interconnectedness from the Flower Ornament Sutra that are unpacked and discussed philosophically in Huayan school. So the Huayan Chinese teaching features a range of Samadhi instructions and metaphorical images coming from the Flower Ornament Sutra. These practices help clear away our limited preconceptions So we, even as we are engaged sometimes for a long time in spiritual practice, we tend to see the ultimate separate from the particular or from phenomena.

[23:38]

But the Huayen images from the Flower Ornament Sutra, which are mostly Samadhi instructions and metaphorical images, help clear away limited preconceptions and foster fresh perspectives on reality. So just reading the Flower Ornament Sutra, we have a whole different range of possible ways of seeing the world. So these images and metaphors and the systematic presentation of them in Huayen expand our mental capacities and express our deep interconnectedness. So that's basically from the third Dharmadhatu. I want to present some Huayen teachings that represent the fourth Dharmadhatu, the mutual connectedness and interpenetration and expression of phenomena with other phenomena. So one of the images that expresses this most clearly and that probably many of you have heard of is Indra's neck, which appears in the Flower Ornament Sutra.

[24:56]

How many of you have not heard of Indra's Net? Oh, so you all know Indra's Net? Should I not talk about that? Sophia, do you know about Indra's Net? Okay. Okay, well, let me, I'll say a little bit about it. So this is a core teaching of Huayen. coming from the flower and the sutra. So the whole universe and whole, all of reality is seen as a multidimensional net or network. And at every point where the strands of the net meet, there are jewels in each place where the meshes meet and each jewel reflects the light reflected in the jewels around it. And each of these jewels in turn reflects the light from the jewels around them and so on forever. In this way, each jewel or each particular entity, including each person, each object ultimately reflects and expresses the radiance, the wholeness of the entire universe.

[26:06]

So all of totality can be seen in each of its parts when we look more deeply. So to see the universe in a grain of sand, as William Blake says, is an example of this. So this is a basic Huayen and Avatamsaka teaching. So this Indra's Net is very helpful. So, okay, so that's one kind of Samadhi exercise, we could say. Another one, which is also from the Flower Arrangement Sutra is the Lion Emergence Samadhi. So in this way of seeing things, every single, on the tip of every single hair or blade of grass on numerous Buddha lands, containing a vast array of Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, and liberating teachings. So the Flower Ornament Sutra is full of lists of these, and it's kind of overwhelming, and as I said, psychedelic.

[27:08]

So this line, Immersion Samadhi, is that each element, they say each atom contains vast numbers of Buddha lands with many, many Buddhas, many, many Bodhisattvas, many specific liberating teachings. Another model is the ocean mirror or ocean seal Samadhi. In this image, awareness is like the vast ocean surface reflecting and confirming in detail all of phenomena from the entire universe. And of course, on the surface of the ocean, there are waves, which the waves of phenomena arise and make it as the waves are larger, we don't see the reflection as clearly. So, and it doesn't the ocean surface doesn't mirror everything as clearly, but when the waves subside as the waters calm and clear the ocean mirror again reflects all clearly.

[28:09]

So our individual minds are like this often disturbed by turbulence, but also capable of settling serenely to reflect clear awareness of all phenomena. So this is a very clear kind of Zazen instruction or description of our reality of Zazen that often our monkey mind is racing around and we don't see wholeness clearly. But when the mind settles, then again, we can see everything reflected more clearly. So this is the Ocean Seal or Ocean Mudra Samadhi. And Dogen speaks of this. He has a whole essay in Shreveganza called the Ocean Seal Samadhi. And I'll just read. Actually, I'm just going to read Tom Cleary's who translated it amongst other people.

[29:16]

I'll read his introduction to this. Cleary says the ocean seal Samadhi or as it is sometimes rendered the ocean reflection Samadhi is said to be the Samadhi from which the Huayen Avatamsaka Sutra emerged. So this was the state of mind of the Buddha when, when, when the Avatamsaka Sutra was propounded. So one of the Hawaiian many, many commentaries is called the Return to the Source Contemplation. We'll have a little bit of that later. So that's popular work in Chinese Zen schools, as well as in Huayen. And it says that the, quote, the ocean seal is the fundamental awareness of suchness, of true suchness. When delusion ends, the mind is clear and myriad forms simultaneously appear.

[30:23]

It is like the ocean due to wind. There are waves. If the wind stops, the ocean water becomes calm and clear and all images are reflected in it. So this, this is a description of, uh, part of our meditative awareness. Um, So in terms of the mind, the ocean Samadhi concentration, the ocean seal Samadhi may be said to refer to holistic impartial awareness. So again, this is an image from the Flower Ornament Sutra that is taken up in the Huayan school. So I want to present a couple of other images used by Fazang. Fa Zong, and I'll post a list of these. Did I skip that? The list of ancestors.

[31:24]

I think that's, yeah, that's later. Okay. So Fa Zong, this will be posted later, but his dates are 643 to 712. He was the third of the five great ancestors of the Huayin school in China. He was a brilliant teacher and some, Descriptions say that he was actually the founder of the school. His many essays are so important, although the other four were also so. But Fosun was particularly skillful at devising models and metaphors to illustrate the profound Huayin truths to people. Amongst his students, Fa Zang, and he had other successors, but Fa Zang also taught the powerful Empress Wu, who was a dedicated patron and student of Buddhism. She lived 624 to 705, actually reigned from 665 to 705, but was also very powerful before that.

[32:31]

And arguably Empress Wu is, the most powerful woman in Asian history period. I don't know how she would compare to Catherine the Great or Elizabeth the First or somebody from the West, but at any rate, Empress Wu was tremendously important and she was a patron of Fozang. So Fozang tried to express to Empress Wu the Huayan basic truth of deep interconnectedness. So one metaphor he used was a golden lion that was sitting nearby them in her palace. So he explained the non-obstructing interpenetration of the universal in particular by describing in detail, and the essay about this goes on, but how the gold was like the universal principle, the ultimate, pervading the object of the golden lion completely. But also its particular unique form was that of a lion.

[33:35]

So we can see this statue either as gold or as a lion. It's both. Each part of the golden lion is completely gold. And each part of it is also completely part of the lion. So this book that I'm gonna be reading from, this cover is faded, but here's an image of a lion. And whether it's the mane or the teeth or the hoofs or whatever part of the legs, whichever part of the lion is there is completely part of the lion. And also, since the statue that was sitting near Empress Wu was gold, the whole thing was gold, both. So this is a metaphor that Fa Zhang used to express the deep interconnectedness of both the ultimate or universal or the golden quality of it all, and the particulars, the particular portions of the lion's body, and each of them are completely part of the lion.

[34:44]

So Fa Zong was very skillful. Another time Fa Zong illustrated this Huayen teaching for Empress Wu by constructing a hall of mirrors. So this is pretty neat. He placed, so maybe some of us have been in funhouse mirrors where the mirrors are warped and distorted, but this was, he put a mirror on the ceiling. He put a mirror on the floor. The whole floor was a mirror. All four walls were mirrors and the corners were also had separate mirrors. So, and maybe more than that, at any rate, there were mirrors everywhere. And then Fa Zang put into the center of this room, a Buddha image. with a lamp next to it to illuminate it. And standing in this room, the Empress could see that in the reflection of any one mirror, there were clearly reflected the reflections from all the other mirrors, including the specific reflections of the Buddha, the Buddha image in each one.

[35:54]

So this fully demonstrated the unobstructed interpenetration of the particular and the totality with each one contained in all and with all sustained in each one, all contained in each one. So it showed also the non-obstructive interpenetration of each particular with each other particular, as all the mirrors showed the particular Buddha and all around. So I've talked about this at Ancient Dragon. Some of you have heard me talk about it before, but this is, um, quite a skillful image of how everything is connected with everything. It illustrates Indra's net. And I actually saw on such a room, the city of 10,000 Buddhas in Ukiah, California. when I was living in the Bay Area, I visited. This is from the Chan lineage, the Chinese Zen lineage of Master Hua. It's still there. And it's a huge place, a huge compound of many buildings.

[37:02]

including the huge Buddha Hall, which was actually formerly a basketball court, but it has Buddha images on each of the four walls. And anyway, that's amazing too. But they had one room, a smaller room, which had these mirrors all around it and a Buddha in the center. So I was able to stand in the middle of that and see Buddhas everywhere forever. So this is a very skillful way of expressing this by Fazan of how each element connects to each other element. So I want to go back to the sutra itself and read some things from specifically the Ganda Vyuha Sutra, which is the last chapter, chapter 39. in the Large Flower Ornament Sutra. So, excuse me.

[38:07]

So, okay. So, okay, the story of the Gandavyoha Sutra, again, is the journey of the monk Sudhana, who was the leader of a group of students who came to hear about the Flower Ornament Sutra. And this, Sutra contains a description of Sudhana's journey to 53 different teachers. Each of them is a great Bodhisattva.

[39:08]

And there were all kinds of people and beings who were amongst these 53. Each one of them expresses this wonderful aspect of Bodhisattva teaching. And then it says, but I don't really, you know, I can't really tell you the whole thing. Please go and see so-and-so. And so he travels to these 53 teachers. And, So I'll just read some sections from this. All in the assembly that began this section, which Sudhana is part of, all of these students and Bodhisattvas were born from the practice and vows of Samantabhadra Bodhisattva. the Bodhisattva of Action, and we'll see pictures of these different characters a little later. They were born from the practice and vows of Samantabhadra with the eye of pure knowledge.

[40:08]

They saw the Buddhas of all times and listened to the cycles of teachings set in motion by all the Buddhas. These students had already reached the other shore of freedom. in each moment of thought, they manifested great psychic transformations and approached all the Buddhas with one body filling the assemblies of all Buddhas in all worlds. So again, this is from the Gandavya Sutra, one of the Avatamsaka. So they, with, They approached all the Buddhas with one body, filling the assemblies of all Buddhas in all worlds. In a single atom, they showed all objects in all worlds to teach and mature all sentient beings, never missing the right time.

[41:09]

From a single pore in their skin, they emitted sounds of the teachings of all Buddhas. They knew that all living beings are like illusions. They knew that all Buddhas are like reflections. They knew that all births in all realms of beings are like dreams. They knew that all consequences of actions are like reflections in a mirror. They knew that all originations are like mirages. they knew that all worlds are like magical productions and so on. So this is this, the beginning of the Gandavyuha, where we see the assembly of beings, including Sudhana in the Gandavyuha. Okay. So, into this concentration, revealing all Buddha lands in the universe, each containing an equal number of Buddha lands.

[42:14]

In each atom, the Bodhisattvas then witnessed the deeds of the Buddhists in all those lands and attained myriad profound Samadhis, whence issue myriad kinds of knowledge and power." So going on, again, this is from the Gandavyuha, Avatamsaka Sutra. These students were led by a youth named Sudhana. Manjushri, the Bodhisattva of Wisdom, looking into Sudhana's past development, expounds the teaching to him and sends him on a pilgrimage to visit teachers to learn all the various facets of Bodhisattvahood. The bulk of the Gandavyuha then recounts Sudhana's journey through which he attains image stages of bodhisattvahood. So again, this part is Cleary's comment on it.

[43:16]

Toward the end of his journey, Sudhana is directed to Maitreya, the Buddha to be personification of loving kindness. Sudhana comes to a great tower, the tower of the treasury of adornments of the illuminator Buddha, Vairochana. So I'll talk more about all these figures, which represents the cosmos as seen by Bodhisattvas. So as he enters and then Maitreya appears. He praises Sudhana before a great assembly and then extensively praises the determination for awakening. Finally, Maitreya has Sudhana enter the tower. And in the Sutra itself, Maitreya clicks his fingers and then the door to the tower opens. And the tower inside the tower is seen to be boundlessly vast. as extensive as space and magnificently adorned with all manner of embellishments.

[44:24]

So again, imagine a tower or a palace and you're inside it and it's as vast as all of space, all of the cosmos, all of the universe. It was all magnificently adorned with all manner of embellishments. But then Sudhana also sees that inside the tower are innumerable, similarly adorned towers, each one of those as extensive as space, not interfering with each other. So this image symbolizes a central Huayen theme representing time. And again, throughout this represented time. And again, throughout the Sutra, all things being interdependent, therefore imply in their individual being the simultaneous being of all other things. This is not the way we usually think about reality, but this is what the Sutra presents.

[45:27]

Thus it is said that the existence of each element of the universe includes the existence of the whole universe and hence is as extensive as the universe itself in space and time. Excuse me. At this point in the story, Sudhana enters unimpeded liberation. and perceives all kinds of inconceivable realms in the features of the towers, including the career and deeds of Maitreya Bodhisattva, as well as all manner of worlds and beings and all things in the universe. Then Maitreya enters the tower and asks Sudhana to rise from his Samadhi and explains to him, quote, the nature of things is thus, These are appearances manifested by the assemblage of causes and conditions of bodhisattvas knowledge of things. Thus their intrinsic nature is like phantasms, like dreams, like shadows, like reflections."

[46:35]

Unquote. So, Yeah, then after exploring all of these different images in this tower, finally Maitreya sends Sudhana to see Manjushri again. So again, Maitreya is the next future Buddha Bodhisattva. And Manjushri is the Bodhisattva of wisdom. And so when Sudhana appears before Manjushri, Manjushri extends his right hand over 110 leagues, pats Sudhana on the head and teaches him and enables him to accomplish innumerable teachings and to be imbued with the infinite light of great knowledge. empowering him to attain the boundless memory power, vows, concentrations, psychic powers, and knowledge of Bodhisattvas.

[47:43]

Thus introducing Sudhana to the site of the practice of Samantabhadra and also placing Sudhana in Manjushri's own abode, symbolizing Sudhana's actualization of both knowledge, which is the realm of Manjushri, and action, which is the realm of Samantabhadra. So wishing to see Samantabhadra, Sudhana develops a great mind, vast as space, an unhindered mind, relinquishing all worlds and free from attachments. So that's a little bit of the Gandavyuha Sutra. which is again, part of the Flower Ornament Sutra, just to give you some taste of the marvels of this Flower Ornament Sutra. So at this point, David, could you put up the pictures, please?

[48:47]

I want to kind of show you who these beings are. So first, yeah, this is, thank you, this is Vairocana or the main Buddha of the Flower Ornament Sutra. So Vairochana is the main Buddha of the Tamsaka Sutra, but also the main Buddha of Vajrayana or Tantric Buddhism, both in Tibet and in China, and very much so in Japan, where the Vajrayana Tantric Buddhism was very strong. And this particular image is from Longmen. which means Dragon Gate. And some of us have actually seen this image. So Debra's here somewhere. Deborah Callahan. I thought she was here.

[49:47]

I don't see her now. There you are. I'm here. Oh, yes. And Deborah and I went to see Northern Chinese Buddhist sites on a guided tour by Andy Ferguson back in 2007. And we went to Longmen, which is just south of one of the ancient capitals of Luoyang. And it's along this river. So it's part of a bank of stone images, many, many, many different many different Buddha images carved into the stone along the Yi River. It's huge, this statue, and David Ray told me he's also seen it, and maybe some of the rest of you have as well. So this is a version of Vairochana, the Dharmakaya Buddha, who's central to this whole discussion, because the Dharmakaya Buddha is the aspect of Buddha that is the whole universe.

[50:51]

So to talk about the Dharmadhatu, the realm of reality, from the perspective of the Dharmakaya, excuse me, the whole Dharma field of reality is awakened. So just as a footnote, there are three aspects of Buddha. The Dharmakaya is one of them. The Nirmanakaya or incarnation body of Buddha is like Shakyamuni or other historical Buddhas. Then there's the Sambhogakaya, which is kind of celestial cosmic Buddhas who are around and they have benefited from the fruit of practice. This particular statue at Longmen is 56 and a quarter feet high. It's immense. I think we actually walked underneath it, but then also if you see it from the other shore of the river, across from the river, you know, it's an amazing statue.

[52:01]

So next image, please, David. This is Vairocana Buddha in Nara, Japan, called the Daibutsu, the Great Buddha, and this is in a large building. This is in the temple Todai-ji, which is a wonderful, wonderful temple. There are many parts of it, but this Daibutsu, or Great Buddha, is the largest bronze statue in the world. And it's also in the largest wooden building in the world. So it's immense. I hadn't remembered it as larger than the Longmen by Roshana, but it's actually a little bit smaller. It's 53, a little more than 53 feet high. What did I say for, I think the one on Longmen, Longmen means dragon gate. So the one, the dragon gate, Viruchana is maybe a foot higher, but maybe because it's inside, I had thought of it as being larger.

[53:07]

It's humongous. It's 53 feet high and its ear you can see is eight feet long. So it's huge statue and a beautiful statue. And so that's in the Todai-ji in Nara. And the Todai-ji is actually a Kegon school temple. So in In the Huayen school, Huayen again is the Chinese translation for Avatamsaka and Kegon is the translation for the characters for Huayen. So I don't think there is still a formal Huayen school in China. It got absorbed by Chan and Pure Land and really was influential in all the later schools. In Japan, there is still a small Kagon school, or Hwaiian school, and Todai-ji is not the only, but it's one of their, it's their main temple. And so Nara, Japan, Nara is the ancient capital of Japan from the 700s, a little way south of Kyoto, which was the later capital.

[54:18]

And actually this huge Buddhist statue of Vairocana in in Todai-ji is smaller than the original one. There were civil wars in Kyoto and Nara based on different feudal lords fighting each other. And the whole Todai-ji temple was burned down. So they rebuilt it in the late 1100s. And it's a little, the building and the statue are a little bit smaller than the original one. So next image, please, David. Okay, this is another image of Vairocana, who in Japanese is called Dainichi, which means great sun, shining sun. And so this is a smaller statue, still larger than human scale, but this is an image by the great Japanese Buddhist sculptor Unkei, who I've talked about at Ancient Dragon. So this is another way of depicting Vairochana, the Dharmakaya Buddha, who is basically the whole universe as awakened.

[55:26]

I've seen other images of Vairochana where his chest is covered with planets and stars to express that this is the Buddha that is the whole universe. So that's a little bit about Vairochana. Next image, please. This is Samantabhadra Bodhisattva. So Samantabhadra is the primary Bodhisattva of the Flower Ornament Sutra. He represents particularly active practice, but also kind of aesthetics. This image is actually from the Closing Sutra of the Lotus Sutra, where he's also important. And Samantabhadra is depicted as riding on an elephant. And I don't know if you can see it in this image, but this is a magical elephant. It has six tusks. And this elephant is not stamping.

[56:29]

We lost the image. David? Ah, okay. You can see lotuses underneath the feet of the elephant, but it's not that he's trampling on the lotus and lotuses. It's actually that wherever he steps, a lotus springs forth. So it supports, these lotuses support the legs of Samantabhadra's elephant. Next image, please. So this is another image of Samantabhadra from the Shofukuji Temple in Kyoto. And you can see the elephant is laughing uproariously. I don't know that people in Japan had ever seen a real elephant when they started sculpting elephants, but they got the idea. Anyway, this Samantabhadra sits on top of an elephant usually, and it's very serene, you know, so. He's simple and serene and calm, but sometimes the elephants are very expressive.

[57:36]

Next image, please. Okay, this is Maitreya. Maitreya is predicted by Shakyamuni to be the next future Buddha. This is Maitreya as a Bodhisattva. So this is how Maitreya would have been in the section of the Flower Ornament Sutra that we read. And Maitreya, is predicted to be the next future Buddha after Shakyamuni in our world, in our world, in our world system. And he will become the next Buddha. uh, 5,000 years, or sometimes it's said in 500,000 years. So, um, it was a very interesting figure. He's waiting to be Buddha. And he's, this is one of the, probably the most famous Buddhist statue in Japan. It's in the Koryu-ji temple in Kyoto, Northwest Kyoto, a beautiful statue. And he's contemplating how to save all for sentient beings. and thinking about looking at how the mind of sentient beings works so that sentient beings are caught and confused.

[58:42]

Yeah, so there are many images of Maitreya as a bodhisattva. He's also the main bodhisattva of the Yogacara school because he's thinking about... Yogacara school is the school, sometimes called the mind-only school of Buddhism, where there's a kind of profound psychological teaching of the different aspects of mind, of reality. And so that's one of the things that he's doing. Maitreya is also the embodiment of loving kindness. So we sometimes chant the Mettā Sutta and Maitreya is named for Mettā in Pali, Mettāyā. So he also expresses loving kindness, sort of complex figure. But anyway, this is Maitreya Bodhisattva. Next image, please. And this is Maitreya Buddha, Maitreya as a Buddha, when he will become the Buddha.

[59:46]

This is another statue by the great Japanese Buddha sculptor, a little earlier than Dogen, but overlapping. He's late 1100s, early 1200s. Unkei I've talked about, so you can go to our podcast and put in Unkei and hear more about him. But this is an image of Maitreya after he becomes the Buddha. And then one more image. This is Manjushri. So Manjushri usually rides a lion as opposed to Samantabhadra's elephant. Manjushri often carries a sword to cut through a delusion. He also appears as a monk often and he's traditionally Manjushri is in the center of most Zen meditation halls or Zendos. So anyway, these are just, this is just some talking about some of the figures we've been mentioning. So thank you for those images, David.

[60:50]

So next, David, could you put up, please put up the, slide of the Huayen ancestors. So I've mentioned some of them already, but these are the great teachers and writers of Huayen Buddhism. So again, they all took parts of the Avatamsaka Sutra and then did these very dense discursive essays about the systemic approach to the Flower Ornament Sutra. So the Huayan School in China came about through the work of these five, first of all. And I'm gonna be doing some readings from particularly Fa Zong and Sheng Guan.

[61:55]

And David, if you could share this in the chat so people can keep it if they want to. Dushan was the first of the five Huayen ancestors, and his dates are 557 to 640. Again, there won't be a test, but Zhiyuan, I have the current pinyin transliteration, but also in brackets is the Wei Zhao, so you will see both of those ways of, of showing their names, but the second is Zhiyan, 600 to 688. The third, who's in some ways most celebrated, 643 to 712, Fazang. I'll be reading a long section from his writings. Then Chengguan is the fourth. 738 to 839. There's two different dates anyway. So these are not succeeding to each other like in the Zen ancestors.

[62:57]

These are scholar monks who wrote profusely about the Huayen teaching from the Flower Ornament Sutra. The fifth is Zongmei. who was also a great Chan master. So he wrote about Chan. He wrote many essays about Chan as well as Huayen. He was a successor to Huineng, actually a couple of generations later. He was actually a successor to the student of Huineng, the sixth ancestor, who the story that some of you know about the, poetry competition to see who would be the successor to the fifth ancestor of Chan or Zen, and that Huining was victorious. So he's from Huining, but he's not the main successor to Huining. Anyway, Zongmi is a very important figure.

[63:58]

in terms of presenting a systematized version of Chinese Buddhism. So he was a very, very important figure as well. So in addition to these five, who are considered the five great Huayen ancestors, if you could move that up a little bit, David. Li Tongxuan was not listed as one of the five, but he was contemporary with Fa Zang, and was actually a colleague of his. So he's in the eighth century and his writings are very influential in Chan and in many other schools. He was a lay teacher, not a lay scholar, not a monk. So I'll talk about them later, but he was, a great influence, particularly on Shino and Korean Buddhism, and also on Myoe, who's one important Japanese Kegon teacher.

[65:02]

Lee Teng-shuan emphasized meditation, maybe more than the first five. And then there's Dongshan, Dongshan Liangjie. So my book, Just This Is It, Dongshan and the Practice of Session, is close into a lot of material about Dongshan, who was considered the founder of Shaodong, the Chinese way of saying Soto Zen. And my teacher, Tianjin Rev. Anderson, senior Dharma teacher at San Francisco Zen Center, has said that Dongshan was actually the sixth Huayin ancestor. So the Song of the Jewel of Meru Samadhi, Hokyo Zamai that many of you know, and the five degrees or five ranks are attributed to Dongshan. So all of that came out of the teachings of these other Huayuan ancestors. So again, there won't be a test, but David, if you would post that, this list of ancestors to the chat so people can look at that.

[66:07]

And then scrolling down a little bit further, The Huayen school was tremendously important and central to Korean son or Korean Zen, Korean Buddhism in general. So I'm listing three of the formative teachers of Korean Buddhism. Weisang, 625 to 702, was a colleague, a fellow student with Fa Zang, and he brought this teaching of Huayen back to Korea. Wonhyo, was contemporary of his and a very interesting character and also an important teacher in Korean Buddhism. And then Chino in the late 1100s and 1200s kind of put together all of the Huayen teachings and was kind of formative to, excuse me, to current Korean Buddhism.

[67:10]

So these are the Korean ancestors who developed Hwa-yen or Hwa-om as it's called in Korean Sun Buddhism. So how are we doing time-wise? Yeah, let's keep going and talk about some of the writings of the Hwa-yen ancestors. Well, I see there's a number of things in the chat. If there's some short questions, David, maybe we can respond. I can respond to some of those at this point. Yes. Yes. Some questions came up. So there was a follow up question from from Risa, who says, I asked about, isn't the universal simultaneously expressed as phenomena with relative truth, that Risa says, I asked because the slide positioned phenomena with the conventional as though it was not also an expression of the absolute.

[68:10]

Oh, well, conventional is another way of talking about the phenomenal. Our conventional reality is totally coexistent with the ultimate reality. So this is such an important point. It's a basic part of Mahayana Buddhism that samsara and nirvana are not separate. The world of samsara, the world of suffering, Our usual world of greed, hate and delusion and so forth is according to Mahayana, but even more so, more emphasized in Huayen, is not at all separate from the ultimate truth. So yeah, conventional is another way of talking about the phenomenal particular aspect of reality. And then there's a question from Yuki who asks, at the City of 10,000 Buddhas, the lineage chart shows Baizhang, Waihei also.

[69:12]

Is this the same Baizhang as in our Soto lineage, which I am about to post in chat? Yeah, yes, absolutely. So the Chinese Chan, so this is a whole other seminar, but the differences between Chinese Chan and Japanese Soto, up until a certain point, they coincide. So Chinese Chan is basically, well, Okay, a little history break here. After the song, Chinese Buddhism totally incorporated all the so-called five houses of earlier Chan. which includes Soto and Rinzai, Saodong and Linji, as well as Yunmen School and the Fayan School. And anyway, all five of those were consolidated. And Chan, which is Zen in Japanese, the Chan School, which continued, actually also in many ways incorporates Pure Land teaching.

[70:20]

So, In Japan, after Dogen, after the Song period in China, Japan had many different schools. there's a kind of sectarianism that's part of Japanese culture. So there are lineages of different teachers, not just in Buddhism, but in flower arranging or in martial arts or in tea, in all of the different Japanese cultural forms. In China, they just kind of collapsed that all into one. So current Chan Buddhism, as expressed in the City of 10,000 Buddhists, also includes devotional Pure Land teaching, and it includes all the schools, all the lineages that we have, but I think Linji and Yunmen teachings were very important. in the development of later Chan. At any rate, yes, all the earlier teachings, all the earlier ancestors before the song are ancestors in Chan too.

[71:23]

So Baizhang is from the Rinzai side, the Linji side, but they're all part of Chinese Chan Buddhism too, just to answer your question. And there's one more question from Jason, who says, wondering if you could say a few words about the difference between Yogacara and Hualien schools of Buddhism, since there seem to be overlapping concepts like the importance of the Dharmadhatu. Also, is there something about the cultural translation of Hualien from India to China and Japan and Korea that makes this tradition different in these various cultural rooms? OK, so I missed the very beginning of that, David. Could you? Sure. Wondering if you could say a few words about differences between Yogacara and Huayen schools of Buddhism. Yeah, Yogacara is part of what fed into Huayen Buddhism. So the two basic schools of Mahayana in India were Madhyamaka, which emphasizes emptiness, and Nagarjuna is part of that, and Yogacara, which emphasizes psychology, I could say, or the workings of the mind.

[72:34]

Both are important in later Buddhism, both are important in Zen and Chan, but Yogacara I think is particularly important in Soto Zen, and it's a way of talking about phenomena. So Yogachara is also kind of phenomenological. It's look at the image of Maitreya, who's the one of the patron Bodhisattva, if there's such a thing of Yogachara, is looking at the phenomena of reality and how we see it. And there's a whole division of aspects of mind. So Yogacara is in the background of Huayen, but both of them, both Madhyamaka and Yogacara are in the background of all later Buddhism. So they're not separate, but yeah, Yogacara is, you know, Yogacara can easily be seen as a context for Huayen. What was the next part of the question, David? Oh, about India and China?

[73:35]

Yeah, the Avatamsaka Sutra was a sutra in India, but I don't think it was very important in Indian Buddhism as far as I know, and I said the same about Tibetan Buddhism. So, Yeah, Tibetan Buddhism has its own complexities and also takes from Indian Vajrayana, which is the so-called Tantric Buddhism. But the Avatamsaka was not as important in Tibetan Buddhism. I think Tibetan Buddhism more, and that's a whole complicated issue, but I think it more leans on Madhyamaka. In terms of the introduction of Buddhism to China, all of, you know, all of Buddhist, all of the different Buddhist teachings from India came into China through these various translations.

[74:40]

And a lot of what we know about Indian Buddhism is based on the Chinese translations of Indian Buddhism, because a lot of the Sanskrit texts have been lost, not all of them. but we know about them from translations into Tibetan and also from translations to China. But the Flower Ornament Sutra, the Avatamsaka, became especially important in Chinese Buddhism. Maybe we could say through the work of these Huayen ancestors who wrote these commentaries. So this Huayen or flower ornament context is especially important in China. And there were different Chinese schools of Buddhism, the Chentai, which became Tendai in Japan, for example, focuses on the Lotus Sutra, but they're not in conflict exactly. there are Huayen, there's a scholarly paper now about Huayen readings of the Lotus Sutra. So one might say, and this is to oversimplify a great deal, but in China, maybe we could say there are four main schools.

[75:48]

There was the, first of all, the Tiantai focused on the Lotus Sutra and the Huayen focused on the Flower Ornament Sutra, which we're talking about today. And then from those came the Pure Land Schools, and the Chan schools or Zen. So, but both Pure Land and Chan were very much influenced by the Huayan or Flower Ornament School. So that's a little bit about that. And I think the part of the question was about Chinese and Indian culture. And, you know, That's interesting. I don't know why the Huayen teaching was, or the Avatamsaka teaching was more pervasive or popular in China as compared to India culturally. Anyway, just historically that was the case. So is there anything else? I see a bunch of things in the chat, but I want to proceed

[76:53]

to actually the main part of this seminar, which is the actual writings of the Huayen ancestors. But if there's another brief question, David, no, okay. So we will, after this section, how are we doing in time-wise? Yeah, better than I had imagined. So I want to talk about writings of the Huayen ancestors. So along with the more accessible models that Fa Zang produced for Empress Wu and others, Fa Zang and the other Huayuan masters, and I'm going to mention also the fourth ancestor, Chenguang, developed many intricate philosophical descriptions of various aspects of interconnectedness. For example, the tenfold causes for realization of totality is one such essay.

[77:56]

The non-obstruction of space and of time is another. Another is the ten non-obstructions of totality. So there are many different, many, many, many, many different Huayen essays, discursive essays, systematic essays talking about the systemic quality of the Flower Ornament teaching. Often they're posed in terms of tens. So 10 was a very important number, both in the Flower Ornament Sutra and for Huayen. So these are conceptual presentations and really require lengthy study to fully appreciate and benefit from them. They're not new and separate teachings, rather they are They expand and elaborate on the Hawaiian dialectical philosophy of interconnectedness of the fourfold Dharmadhatu, interconnectedness of totality with all individual beings.

[79:00]

So there may be some more of these in scholarly writings. The main accessible English source for the Hawaiian ancestor teachings is, again, this book, which I highly recommend, even though it's very dense. This is the entry into the inconceivable, an introduction to Hawaiian Buddhism by Thomas Cleary, University of Hawaii Press, and I'll have the bibliography later on. So I want to read some, of the actual writings of the Huayen ancestors. I'm actually going to start with Chengguan was later than Fa Zang. And this is from another useful book, The Buddhist Teaching of Totality by Garma C.C. Chang. Again, there'll be a bibliography at the end for all these various texts for those who want to pursue this. But for Yeah, so let me find the part I wanted to read.

[80:06]

Again, this is from a writing by Cheng Guan. Yeah. So this is a translation of Cheng Guan, one of Cheng Guan's essays. If a claim can be accepted and denied at the same time by the so-called round doctrine of Huayen, how can it establish any order at all? The answer is that a principle of order is valid and effective only in a specific realm. beyond which it no longer applies. The orders of lower realms are renounced when they become insufficient, and then the orders of higher realms are evoked or sought. I'm not sure this is the part I actually wanted to read.

[81:08]

Wait a second, I'm on the wrong page. Okay, that was also from Cheung Kwan, but I wanna, instead read from Chengguan's essay, a prologue to Huayen. So this, what I'm gonna read is an essay from Chengguan. The non-obstruction of totality in complete freedom is to say that this very body of Buddha is principle, is the ultimate, and also is the phenomenal. So this is what I was talking about before. Zhongguan continues, it is one and also many. It is the dweller and also the world that is dwelt upon. So the one and the many, some of you may recognize from Gensho Kōan by Dōgen and also the Harmony of Difference and Sameness, Sandaokai by Shuto, an important teacher just before Dongshan.

[82:10]

So all of this is very much part of Soto Zen. Okay. It is one and also many, it is the dweller and also the world that is dwelt upon. It is the man who, or the person who teaches and also the Dharma that is taught. It is identical with this and also with that, the same as sentient and as in sentient beings. It is deep and also vast. It is the cause as well as the effect. which is not as how we usually think. That is to say, Shang Guan continues, that the true body of Buddha, Vairochana, is the great Dharmadhatu itself, the whole universe. Nothing is different from it. No divine revelation is required here to validate its simultaneous identity with all beings, since nothing is outside of the embrace of the body of Dharmadhatu, the whole universe as awakened.

[83:17]

It is one, and also many, can be interpreted in two ways, Jung 1 continues, either in the sense of the one body of reality, the Dharmakaya, like Vairagyana, being completely identical with the numerous bodies of transformation, Buddhas, nirmanakaya, historical Buddhas, incarnated Buddhas, or in the sense of the revelation of one Buddha's body in one location, necessarily implying the revelation of other Buddha's bodies in other locations, since the one is identical with the many Buddhas, the many bodies, because it is all embracing stretching out in every direction, like space, we say that it is vast and because it transcends all forms and shapes and even goes beyond the mark of emptiness, we say it is deep. It is cause and it is effect, means that there is no cause in the light of the mutual interpenetration of phenomena and phenomena, which can be regarded as truly different from its effect and vice versa.

[84:29]

So that's a little excerpt from Shangguan. And I'll just pause there and see if there's any comments or questions just about that, that reading. There's a hand up. Rayron's hand is up. Hi, Rayron. I can't hear you. You just said something while you were reading about beyond emptiness. I'd like you to tell us more about because Showako Okamura in his, and again to Kowani said, oh no, that was in a different book. Anyway, but he says, how could you go beyond emptiness? But we say that in our verse too, in our rope verse, we saw it be the great field beyond form and emptiness. So could you talk more about beyond emptiness? Well, so emptiness can be a synonym for the universal.

[85:33]

Emptiness can be a synonym for the whole Dharmadhatu, for all of reality. But also emptiness as a particular teaching, yes, go beyond emptiness. Emptiness is a particular kind of way of seeing reality as, excuse me, technically empty of separate individual existence. But from the point of view of Huayen and the ultimate, each thing, so the phenomenal as not separate from emptiness, So anyway, this gets technically into different aspects of the teaching like Yogacara and Huayen and so forth, Madhyamaka. So Dongshan, for example, talks about suchness rather than emptiness, which is a way, which might be seen as a way of validating the reality of all particular phenomena instead of saying that they're all empty of separate identity.

[86:35]

So, These words like emptiness and dharma, you know, in that particular context have different meanings. So maybe it means beyond emptiness teaching or beyond seeing things as empty. We can see things as wholeness also, or as non-separate from totality. And all of these are, you know, different ways of seeing reality. So in some ways they're all identical, but anyway, in terms of seeing different aspects of teaching, they're different. So I want to next give a longer reading from Fazang if there's no other questions about the Chengguan reading. And I need a little bit of water.

[87:39]

So next I want to read from a teaching by, an essay by Fazan called, Cultivation of Contemplation of the Inner Meaning of Huayen, The End of Delusion and Return to the Source. So this is from Cleary translation. And I'm gonna start with part of Cleary's introduction to this essay. So the two functions of the essence are the oceanic reflection, which we already talked about, the ocean seal Samadhi referring to the fundamental holistic awareness of thusness and the complete illumination of the realm of reality, which means action in accord with the awareness of reality, actualizing the truths of the universe.

[89:04]

The three universals are metaphysical correlates of the principle of universal relativity. Since each particle of the cosmos depends on the whole cosmos for its establishment, then quote, one atom pervades the universe, unquote. Since the establishment of the cosmos depends on each atom, then one atom produces infinity, unquote. In light of this relativity, Quote, one atom contains emptiness and existence. So emptiness and existence are part of the whole reality of each element of everything. These three universals represent both the mutual non-interference of the ultimate and the phenomenal, and also the non-interference of phenomena among themselves phenomena and other phenomena. So that's the third and fourth dharmadhatu. So you see this Huayen discourse gets very technical and philosophical.

[90:12]

Those universals show the setting and the scope of actions and hence the importance of being careful about what is done Since everything is related, Fa Zang thus proceeds in this essay to outline the practice of four virtues. The first virtue, so there's many different aspects of this essay and I'll read some of it, I'm not gonna read the whole thing. The first virtue is subtle or non-conceptualized activity according to conditions without conventional, conventionalized method. This refers to super conventional morality acting in conventional patterns. The second virtue is that of dignified regulated conduct, which refers to conventional Buddhist morality. The observance of certain ethical precepts, the main thrust of which is to prevent injury and deception.

[91:14]

The third type of virtue in this essay is mentioned That is mentioned as treating people with peace, harmony, and honesty. The fourth virtue is accepting suffering for all beings, which basically refers to the bodhisattvas remaining in the midst of the world, amidst suffering beings. not shrinking from his turmoil and pain in order to carry out awakening activity. So that's a part of Cleary's introduction to this. So now I want to read parts of this long essay by Fazza. Is everybody ready? Do you have your seatbelts buckled? Okay. Um, Okay, to plumb this ocean, this is Vassa, to plumb this ocean of essence and comprehend that forest of practice, I bring up six separate gates through which they all become a single view, different yet not mixed, clear all in one.

[92:24]

I hope that sentient beings will turn back from deluded ways in that the sun of illumination from Viruchana can dawn for all alike. Many civilized people who uphold the way, may civilized people who uphold the way be humbly thoroughgoing in this study. So I think we'll have discussion after this and have a short break, but here we go. So, So these six gates he goes into. So again, Fawcett says one, revealing one essence. This means the inherently pure, complete, luminous essence, which is pure of its own nature. So that's the ultimate of the essence. Two, activating two functions. A, the eternal function of the oceanic reflection of the web of forms.

[93:28]

B, the self-existent function of the complete illumination of the realm of reality. So that's the second. Three, showing three universals. A, the universality of one atom pervading the universe. B, the universality of one atom producing infinity. So each atom as it unfolds, it is infinity. C, the universality of one atom containing emptiness and existence. So again, as to emptiness, each atom contains both form and emptiness. Four, practicing four virtues and all. So each one of these six Fa Zang talks about in more detail in the rest of the essay, but I'll particularly talk about number four, which is practicing four virtues. A, the virtue of subtle function according to conditions without convention.

[94:37]

B, the virtue of maintaining dignified, regulated, exemplary conduct. C, the virtue of receiving beings with gentleness, harmony, honesty, and straightforwardness. D, the virtue of accepting suffering in place of all sentient beings. So again, these are all aspects of bodhisattva life. Number five, entering five cessations. A, cessation by awareness of the pure emptiness of things and detachment from objects. B, cessation by contemplating the voidness of person and cutting off desire. C, cessation because of the spontaneity of the profusion of natural evolution. D, cessation by the light of concentration shining forth without thought.

[95:47]

C, formless cessation in the hidden communion of phenomena and the ultimate. So you can see that each one of these aspects, one might contemplate in detail. One can spend a lot of time with each aspect of everything that, that Bazang is saying. Number six, developing six contemplations. A, the contemplation of real emptiness, returning objects to mind. B contemplation of the inconceivable existence of realms manifested by the mind. C contemplation of mystic merging of mind and environment. This is actually an important aspect of Zen and Soto Zen. D contemplation of the reflection of myriad objective conditions in the body of knowledge.

[96:49]

So this is all of the phenomenal objects incorporated in wholeness. E, contemplation of the forms of many bodies entering one mirror. So this refers to that mirror samadhi. F, contemplation of the imperial net. In other words, the Indra's net in which principle and satellites reflect one another. So in Indra's net, the ultimate is there and each one of the aspects in particular are included. So that's just the beginning of this essay. I'll just read the next part. The first gateway, the revelation of one essence means the essence that is inherently pure. complete and luminous. That is the essence of the nature of things within the matrix of the issue of suchness.

[97:55]

Since it is fundamentally complete of its own nature and is not inherently, and is not defiled in the midst of impure and not purified by cultivation, it is inherent pure, inherently pure, kind of from the beginning. Since its natural essence shines everywhere and no hidden recess is not lit up, it is completely luminous. So this is just saying briefly about the first gateway. Okay, I want to jump to another part of this long essay. It'll take a lot of time to read the whole thing, but a little later on, Fa Zang quotes the Ratna-Gatra Shastra, which is the commentary on the jewel family.

[98:59]

Ratna is jewel and Gatra is family, like the family of Buddhas. So he quotes that commentary as saying, quote, Bodhisattvas before the path still have three doubts about the real emptiness and inconceivable existence. So again, going back to emptiness and form, the first is that they suspect emptiness annihilates form and hence grasps, and hence they grasp nihilistic emptiness. The second is that they are suspect that they suspect emptiness is different from form and hence grasp emptiness outside of form. The third is that they suspect emptiness is a thing and hence grasp emptiness as an entity. So these three doubts, as this commentary says, are basic ways of misunderstanding.

[100:03]

emptiness and this word emptiness in itself in English helps to, may allow us to see these three. So I'm going to go over those. The first, the first doubt about real emptiness is that people suspect emptiness annihilates form and hence grasp nihilistic emptiness. That's not what emptiness is about. It's not, you know, overcoming form. The second is that they suspect emptiness is different from form and hence grasp emptiness outside of form. This could be translated as they suspect that the ultimate is different from the phenomena and outside of phenomena. So grasping the ultimate, and this is a misunderstanding. So this is very basic idea in YN. The third is that they suspect emptiness is a thing, and hence grasp emptiness as an entity.

[101:09]

So emptiness is not a thing. Excuse me. So Nagarjuna and other masters of emptiness teaching talk about the emptiness of emptiness. Emptiness is not some thing. but it could be misunderstood that way. Okay. So that's Fazan quoting this commentary. Then Fazan continues. Now I must explain this. Form is illusory form and necessarily does not interfere with emptiness. Emptiness is true emptiness and necessarily does not interfere with form. very important. If it interfered with form, it would be nihilistic emptiness. If it interferes with emptiness, it would be solid form. Since one atom contains true emptiness and inconceivable existence of form, as noted above, we should know that all atoms are also such.

[102:21]

If you can realize this principle, you will find that an atom contains the 10 directions with no abrogation of great and small. An instant contains the nine timeframes with extension and brevity being simultaneous. That is why we have excellent subtle words with a fine hair showing the complete teaching. and why we have extraordinary holy sutras with a mote of dust manifesting the whole of being. It goes far beyond the horizons of speech and thought. It penetrates the trap of words and concepts. So again, this is the basic oneness of form and emptiness or non-separation of form and emptiness.

[103:28]

And this gets pretty subtle and it's, we can get caught by it in subtle ways. So this is emphasized in Huayen teaching. Okay. Okay, so of those different aspects that, Fa Zang talks about, I'm going to give a more detailed commentary on some of them. First being the four virtues. Next proceeding from these three universalizing perspectives, practicing four virtues means cultivating four kinds of practical virtue based on the aforementioned perspective of the universality of an atom. Okay, first is the virtue of subtle action according to conditions without convention. This means initiating action based on reality for the widespread welfare of sentient beings.

[104:38]

Again, this is all about Bodhisattva activity, right? Sentient beings, faculties and capacities are not the same. So they receive understanding in myriad different ways. This is the basic practice of skillful means. Their inclinations are not the same. So they are given teachings according to their state of potentiality, like being given medicines in accordance with their particular illnesses. This meaning is thoroughly clarified in the Vimalakirti Sutra. Okay. By virtue of great compassion, Bazin continues, it is called according to conditions. And by virtue of great wisdom, it is called subtle action. And by virtue of not demolishing artificial names, and yet always liberating sentient beings, it is called according to conditions.

[105:42]

If you comprehend the inherent emptiness of sentient beings, there is really no one to liberate or to be liberated. So it is called subtle action. Moreover, because the real does not oppose the mundane, you accord with conditions because the mundane does not oppose the real. You function subtly. Further, you produce the branches from the root. So it is according to conditions and you gather the branches to the root. So it is subtle function. Okay. It continues with these four virtues. Um, This is difficult stuff. I mean, it's dense. Shall I continue? Okay, no response.

[106:49]

Rayren's hand is up. Oh, Rayren. Yeah, you want me to continue? I'm always having questions. We're both thinking about the word Adam that is used here. What does that actually mean in this context? I think it's sort of the same thing that the Greeks meant. It's the, I don't know that they knew about neutrons and electrons and all of that, but it's the smallest division of matter. The problem is that the early Buddhists also were talking about those indivisible building blocks, you know, there's those... And then Nagarjuna says they don't exist. Well, but they don't... Yes, and the Hawaiian people knew what Nagarjuna said, of course. They don't exist as ultimately real, but from the phenomenal mundane, perspective, which is totally not separate from the ultimate.

[107:53]

Right, because they couldn't be, otherwise they would be obstructing each other, right? And they don't. Yeah, exactly. Okay, good. So yeah, physics, it's not, it's not that kind of atom. It's not modern chemistry. But, but this is, you know, so again, this is that's an example of how the conventional and the ultimate are totally integrated in this teaching. They're not separate. They're not different, but they, you know, from the mundane perspective, they're different. Of course, from the perspective of phenomena and our conventional world, of course, awakening and delusion are separate, but from this perspective, There's no separation between each Adam and the ultimate, in this case.

[108:58]

I'll continue reading Fazan, this section of Fazan. There's another part I wanted to read. And this is a very long essay, but I want to continue with the virtues a little bit further. Indeed, because things have no boundaries, when they appear, they must be simultaneous. So it's not only in space and forms, it's in time. The principle of reality does not hinder myriad differences. So that's important, the principle of reality The ultimate reality does not hinder the myriad differences, Poisson says. Responsive manifestations are all in one space. The function is like waves leaping and churning, carrying on action with the whole essence of reality.

[110:06]

In essence, the mirror is clear, the water is still, In bringing up accord with conditions, we understand peacefulness. It is like beams of sunlight, endlessly illuminating myriad forms without moving. Therefore it is called the virtue of subtle actions according to conditions without convention. So are you ready for the second virtue? Yes, Richard says yes. Second is the virtue of maintaining dignified, well-regulated, exemplary conduct. This means the four dignified modes of bearing, walking, standing, sitting, reclining. In the greater vehicle, there are 80,000. In the lesser vehicle, 3,000 dignified manners. As a model for upholding and abiding

[111:09]

by to straighten the tangled thread of the six harmonies, a ladder out of the mundane, a swift boat over the ocean of suffering to help beings and guide the lost. Nothing is greater than this." And he goes on, and I'm not sure how much of this to read. You know, the main point is the profusion of illustrations of how it is that each atom or each element is totally coherent with the ultimate, non-separate from the ultimate. So this Huayen teaching is very dense. And, you know, each sentence of Fa Zong's essay, you know, one might spend some time contemplating. So, but this stuff is available.

[112:13]

And I, again, I recommend this book, Entry into the Inconceivable, where Tom Cleary has these translations of these essays by Fa Zong and others. I'll continue a little bit. There's some other sections I was going to read. And there's these dense readings about these different six virtues. I'll continue a little. Thus, but as the golden countenance of Buddha has hidden its light and the true teaching has declined, its transmission has become weakened. confused and guided by personal views until this has caused the teaching to lack cohesion and order. Dipping randomly from the pure stream, gain and loss arise together and falsehood mixes with true purity, therefore causing beginning students to go wrong in every event they encounter.

[113:23]

not relying on the scriptures and precepts, mixing the ordinary sentiments being the downfall of self and others." And Fosung says, this is utterly pitiful. So when he's talking about beginning students, that means all of us, right? From the point of view of Huayan. So these Huayan teachings are deep and I think can be informative and helpful in our practice. I'm going to skip to a little ahead. The third is the virtue of treating beings gently and harmoniously, honestly and straightforwardly. So this is the third virtue. This means that great wisdom, illumining the real is called honest straightforwardness. By virtue of great compassion, saving beings is called gentle and harmonious.

[114:28]

Moreover, direct straightforwardness is in terms of the immutability of fundamental natures, fundamental nature, gently harmony. Gently harmony is in terms of going along with the flow without lingering. Gentleness means subduing afflictions. Harmony means cultivation of action in accord with the ultimate. These tuning and harmonizing methods are used for the salvation of sentient beings. Honest straightforwardness also means that one's being is free from delusion and falsehood. One's words and actions match each other. and one accumulates virtue in the heart with no concern for fame or profit, considering gold as trifling as a clot of earth, valuing the teaching more than jewels, simply acting properly to harmonize the living, soon hoping for the complete fulfillment of self and others.

[115:34]

This is therefore called the virtue of treating beings gently and harmoniously, honestly, and straightforwardly. So that's the third virtue. I'll read a little bit about the fourth virtue. The fourth is, so again, this is Fa Zong's writing. Fourth is the virtue of accepting suffering in place of all sentient beings. This means, cultivating the various principles of practice, not for one's own sake, but only wishing generally to, excuse me, to benefit myriad beings, enemies and friends equally causing all to stop evil and fully cultivate myriad practices to realize awakening. Further, bodhisattvas with great compassion and great determination use their bodies as goods to ransom all suffering beings from states of misery in order to cause them to attain happiness.

[116:35]

This they do forever and ever without flagging, and they do not have the slightest wish or hope for reward from sentient beings. The Huayen Sutra, the Tamsaka Sutra says, quote, vast clouds of compassion cover all. They abandon their bodies in countless lands, and by the power of practice, cultivated through oceans of eons past, this world in the present has no defilements. So this is Fazang's teachings. Okay, I'll continue a little bit more of Fazang. He talks also about the five Gates of Cessation. I'll read something instead from the Six Contemplations.

[117:39]

Again, this is all from this same long essay by Faso. As for the six contemplations, first is the contemplation of true emptiness, returning objects to mind. This means that whatever there is in the world is only the creation of one mind. So you see here how Madhyamaka and Yogacara teachings are combined. Outside of mind, there is not a single thing that can be apprehended. Therefore, it is called returning to mind. It means that all discriminations come only from one's own mind. There has never been any environment outside the mind, which could be an object of mine. Why? Because when the mind is not aroused, the environment is fundamentally empty.

[118:48]

I'll say that again. Because when the mind is not aroused, the environment is fundamentally empty. The treatise on distinction of the mean and extreme says, quote, because they are based on consciousness only, objects have no essence. And therefore the meaning of true emptiness is established because since data have no existence, the original consciousness is unborn." So here's Fosung really referring to this Yogacara teaching of mind only. So I could go on talking about the five cessations. Skip to the second. Second is the contemplation of inconceivable, empty existence, manifesting the environment from the mind. So instead of emptiness, it's the inconceivable existence. That is phenomena do not linger in the ultimate.

[119:53]

With every phenomenon, there occur differences. That is to say, in the preceding approach, we return characteristics back to the essence. In this approach, the initiate functions based on the essence, fully cultivating myriad practices to adorn a land of reward. This is a Buddha land. just to give headings here. Third is the contemplation of the mystic merging of mind and environment. This is very important in Zen. Mind means mind without obstruction. All Buddhas realize this, whereby they attain the body of reality. Environment, means environment without obstructions. All Buddhas realize this, whereby they achieve a pure land. This means that the Buddha's body of reward and the pure land on which it is based merge completely without obstruction.

[120:57]

So just to say a little bit about this idea of a pure land, this is basic to Mahayana Buddhism that whenever a Buddha awakens, they manifest or create a pure land in their environment. The whole environment of that awakening Buddha becomes pure, becomes awakened. Dogen talks about this too, when one, when he says, when one person completely awakens, all of reality completely awakens. So that's the third. And he gives more commentary on all of that. But just to say the fourth is the contemplation of the body of knowledge, reflecting myriad objective conditions. This means that the essence of knowledge is only one and capable of reflecting myriad objective conditions. The characteristics of objective conditioning are fundamentally empty.

[122:01]

The radiance of the essence of knowledge is silent. The characteristics of all objective conditions ended thusness or suchness as such alone, subsists. This means that conditioning thing, conditioned things all contain the nature of reality. So all things in themselves are completely reality. Fifth is the contemplation, excuse me, of the images of many bodies in one mirror, the reality realm of non-interference among each and every phenomenon. So these are, and then there's a sixth. Sixth is the contemplation of the net of Indra. where principle and satellite reflect one another. This means that with self as principle, one looks to others as satellites or companions, or else one thing or principle is taken as principle and all things or principles become satellites or companions.

[123:15]

or one body is taken as principle and all bodies become satellite. So this is the image of the Indra's net where all things are part of the whole and interact. So this is a little bit of his, of Fosung's teaching about the six contemplations. And I'll just read one more little part from Fosung. This actually is from Norman Shrine's book. This is from a different writing by Fa Zong. This is from Fa Zong's teaching on the elaboration of the 10 mysteries. And there are all kinds of, there's different sets of 10 mysteries that he expresses. This is commenting on, this part I'm going to talk about next, is commenting on the mutual non-obstruction of phenomena with phenomena.

[124:22]

So Fa Zeng says in this essay, the mystery of simultaneous completeness means that all the above mentioned 10 principles or ultimates simultaneously established themselves in correspondence to form a total dependent arising without the differentiation of past or future, beginning or end. In this dimension, all and all establish themselves in perfect consistency and freedom. This establishment of totalistic dependent arising makes all things and principles mutually penetrate into one another. It does not upset their orders in any individual realm by the power of the ocean mirror Samadhi all and all in the Dharmadhatu now come into view simultaneously like reflections in a mirror. So this is about the way in which all phenomena

[125:28]

are inter-fused, interact and interconnected. So maybe we should take a break after that. I'm gonna go on to talk about the implications of practice based on Huayen and about Huayen's relationship to the world. its effects on Soto Zen. But should we take a break before or after a discussion period? Are people ready to ask questions now? We could take some before and some after the break. A few questions came up in chat, Taigen. OK, please proceed, David. Yes. Let's see. So I think the first one was from Dylan. I think that's right. So Dylan says, does Huayan or any Buddhist tradition explore the concept of dimensions and or multiple universes?

[126:35]

And if so, does that affect the meaning of wholeness? Well, the image of multiple towers of Maitreya, which I mentioned, implies that these are different universes or that they could be seen. So of course, when we talk about the universe based on modern physics and what the totality was in Huayen understanding of cosmology might be seen as different. But yeah, of course, this is talking about different dimensions. This is talking about different universes, in a sense. So could you read the question again, Dylan, please? I mean, David. The question is, does Huayen or any Buddhist tradition explore the concept of dimensions and or multiple universes? And if so, does that affect the meaning of wholeness? Well, the meaning of wholeness in Huayen is that there are multiple dimensions. and multiple universes, depending on how you want to define those things.

[127:40]

But yeah, that's what this is all about. And the wholeness is the wholeness of all the different dimensions and all the different universes. So each of the towers of Maitreya is a whole dimension or a whole universe, for example. And there are many, many other, many, many, many other descriptions in the Flower Ornament Sutra and in Huayen teaching. that could be seen that way. So thank you, Dylan. The next question is from Douglas, who asks, would Adam refer to Dharma as the most fundamental component of phenomena? Yeah, you know, that's a good question. I'm not sure, but I think we could understand it that way. So dharma, you know, means reality or truth. It also means the teaching of reality or truth, but in dharma's plural, as in Abhidharma, a dharma is an element of, or, you know, an aspect of a thing, you know, all things in the universe.

[128:45]

uh are are dharmas so yeah um I don't know I I don't have the I don't have the original clearly translates this as atoms and I think maybe maybe he's maybe in the original that is dharmas or in effect dharmas dharma uh but understood as atoms so I'm not sure I don't know if there's another Chinese character that he's translating as Adams. I'm not sure. And so of course the Chinese Huayen is in some ways influenced by Chinese philosophy and Chinese culture. So they may have a different category of Adam and Dharma, but it's a good question. I think one can see it as the same, but I'm not certain. Next, Ryushin wants you to know that they are so enjoying your cat's bell. And then there's one question from Risa, who I think has left, but I imagine it's a question that won't be useful in any case.

[129:53]

So the question is, does the dialectic approach of Huayen refer primarily to the intertwining of the absolute and the relative emptiness and form? Yeah. It's the, well, and then it's, it is elaborated in the Soto Five Degrees or Five Ranks, which we're going to get to later. But yeah, the dialectic is the dialectic of the ultimate and the particular, to put it that way. There's, there are many ways of translating those two. Li and Xue is the usual Chinese characters, meaning principle and phenomena. it's often presented as absolute and relative, which I'm a little nervous about because they have that way of terming it, to me implies some kind of Western philosophical context, which I think is not exactly what this is. But provisionally, one could say absolute and relative.

[130:55]

In Dongshan's presentation of the five degrees, it's the upright and inclined. which we'll get to, or the real and the phenomenal. So there are various ways of talking about these two aspects of our awareness. And, and actually they're not two, they are totally interconnected. That's the point of Huayen. But how they are interconnected is this elaborate philosophy of the Fourfold Dharmadhatu. And then, and then that's for, that is further unfolded in the Sutras and Five Degrees or Five Ranks. But yeah, there's these two aspects of, or two ways of seeing reality as universal truth and as provisional conditions truth. They're also sometimes talked about as terms of host and guest, which is one of the Rinzai Zen expressions or elaborations of this, which I'll mention at the very end for hosts and guests anyway.

[132:03]

Yeah, so there are many synonyms for these two sides of reality, universal in the particular or the ultimate in the phenomenal, whatever. So anything else, David? Well, I have a follow-up question on that. So those binarisms, whether it's upright and inclined or host and guest, always, it seems to me, have a little bit of a hint of hierarchicality. And I'm wondering, Is that just simply a function of language, that when language has a binarism, it sounds like one member of the binarism is on the bottom? Or is there indeed some built-in hierarchy in the thinking about absolute and relative or upright and inclined? Well, there is definitely the recognition that as provisional particular phenomenal beings, we start from a perspective of, of about, you know, valorizing the conventional particular truth.

[133:06]

And that as we, um, sustain our practice, we tend to see the ultimate or universal as primary, but actually they're not separate. And it's not a binarism necessarily. So there's a fourfold aspect in Huayen, the fourfold Dharmadhatu. In Soto Zen, in Dongshan's expression, in Xiaodong, and I'll be talking more about this later on, it's fivefold. So there's a pentamerism. So I talk about this in my book about Dongshan. don't shun the practice of suchness or just this is it, which will be part of the bibliography at the end. So yeah, it's not necessarily a binarism, but we see it in terms of binarism because we are creatures of, binary creatures. We have left and right, male and female, front and back, you know, so our, ways of conventional ways of thinking are caught in binaries, but actually that's not reality.

[134:13]

And we have non-binary, so maybe we're catching up with YN thinking. Yeah, hopefully. So I think we should have a break, but if there's one more question that you have there in the chats that you want to provide, David, go ahead. I think that might be it, unless there's something that I missed in the chat, in which case, please raise your hand. Well, let's take a 10-minute break. or some of us can be back in seven or eight minutes. And then we can have a little more discussion before I launch into the practical implications of Huayen. But I really wanted to emphasize these Huayen discourses by the Huayen teachers. And then, so after this, we'll talk about the practical implications of Huayen, both in the flower and in the sutra and in Huayen teaching. And then I'm going to say a little bit more about Korea and Japan and Soto influences from Huayan.

[135:20]

So thank you all very much. We'll take maybe 10 minute break or so and resume and we can start with informal discussion when we get back. Thank you. Hello.

[146:54]

So some of you are back on Zoom. Do any of you have questions? You can just raise your hand or David can read things from the chat. Let's have a little bit of discussion before we launch into practice implications. Again, the main thing I wanted to convey is just the density and wisdom of these Huayen ancestors and their many writings. So I'm glad you got a taste of that. And again, please consult. Oh, you can't hear me. Wait a second. We could hear you. We can. Could you hear me? Yes. Okay. Well, I couldn't hear you cause I didn't have my earphones on. So, yeah, I just wanted to convey the quality of these Hualien ancestors' writings.

[148:02]

So there's a lot that we could talk about and I do want to get to the practice implications and talk about how this spread to Japan and particularly Soto, but comments, questions, any responses? Let's take a little time for that. Or David, if there's something in the chat. Rarin, is that your hand up? And then Brian's hand is up. Yeah. Rarin. Okay. We, you know, we say that the conventional way of looking at the world is illusion. So How are phenomena real or not real? Can you talk about that? Yeah, it's, it's the illusion is real. It's a reality. It's the truth. So if you think that illusion is just illusion, that's not the ultimate. The ultimate is only expressed, only appears in the illusory, in the conditioned.

[149:11]

So the conditioned is an aspect of reality. And Dogen says to be in delusion throughout delusion. And that ultimately delusion and awakening are not separate. At the end of delusion, we are awakened. At the end of awakening, we see delusions. But it also says that that doesn't exist. So existence is different, right? What do you mean by existence? Well, we talk about appearances. Yeah, there's the appearance and there's the true reality, but the true reality is not separate from the appearances. Right. Yeah, I know that. But how... Because when you were reading something, I just... I can't tell which is from my memory, but there was one section where it was clear that it said that doesn't exist or it's not real or something like that.

[150:12]

Anyway. Yeah, it's just a... Yeah, this is really tricky stuff. And we think that dilutions, that we should get rid of dilutions. we should end all delusions. And we say that in one of the Four Bodhisattva Vows, but actually the delusions is where... So Dogen also says, to study the way is to study the self, which means to study our delusions about how we think there's a self, and we do. But it's not about expunging um the illusory it's about seeing through not being caught by the by those illusory which are in fact is in fact awakening so but but the self is an illusion um you know there's also the maha parinirvana sutra where buddha says that uh that when he taught non-self and impurity and um

[151:23]

what are the four marks and impermanence and so forth, that that was just an expedient way of teaching. So in the Mahaparinirvana Sutra, it says very clearly, the Buddha says, there is self, there is permanence, there is purity. Um, I forget the fourth one. Now, um, there is bliss instead of suffering. Um, that's the reality, but he taught, he taught the other way because we don't see the reality, the reality, the total reality of self, which is Dharmakaya or the Dharmadattu. We think that we see these four, we see suffering, whereas the total reality is bliss. But of course we see suffering.

[152:26]

And of course there is suffering, of course. And we work to help lessen that. Anyway, we could talk about this for a long time and that's okay, but I wanted to see if there was anybody else who had a question or comment at this point. Oh, Brian had something. Please keep it concise and brief. I know. Yeah. Just a delightful quote from Buckminster Fuller in his writings, which I think is directly applicable to the integrative totality reality that the Hawaiian describes. Buckminster Fuller said, nature doesn't have a physics department or a chemistry department or a biology department. It's just nature. It's man through the conveniences and the conventions that has created those categories. But, you know, nature is a integrated whole. And I'm paraphrasing him, but I always thought that was a nice description of kind of what the Hawaiian is pointing to as well.

[153:29]

Good. Thank you very much for that. So is there another comment or question before we go into the practice implications of Hoyin? I have, I can't figure out how to put my hand up on my phone here on Zoom, but it's Nicholas. Hi, Nicholas, how are you? Hi, I'm very good, very good. I had a wonderful haiku workshop with Laurel today. And so anyway, my question is, do you find that this material maps to the psychedelic experience because I find a lot of resonance in some of these descriptions that sort of are really great ways to describe what I've experienced in like sacred ceremony. Right, yeah, you and I have talked about our experience of psychedelics, yes.

[154:30]

And I just find that, you know, I did a series of ayahuasca things a few years ago, but I find that it's like this material just feels Yeah, it really makes a lot of sense when I kind of correlate it to those visions, kind of to describe maybe what I was experiencing, but I just wanted to get your take on that. It's really interesting that you say that because the Flower Ornament Sutra itself I often refer to as psychedelic. I mean, the Sutra discourse is flowery and profuse and colorful and wow, it's just, you know, wow, it's all you can say sometimes. But Huayan seems to me, seems more kind of rational and systemic and discursive. But I appreciate your saying that because, you know, in some ways it's describing the dynamics of that experience.

[155:33]

So yeah, thank you for that. Again, the Huayen ancestors, their writings are very systemic and discursive, as I said, and seem rational. They're not, but they seem like that. So I appreciate your saying that. This is an extension of the Flower Ornament Sutra. and all its profusion of images, but it's a way of making sense. That's not the right way of saying it. It's a way of kind of entering into that avatamsaka experience. Yes, yes. I just thought the mystic merging of minds to environment was such a great description of the psychedelic experience. Right, and there are different elements within these different Huayen categories that are very resonant with Zazen experience or other kinds of mystical or ultimate experience.

[156:45]

So yes, thank you, Nicholas. Okay, thank you. Rarin adds, Samadhi is a psychedelic state. Yes. We could say that, yes. It's not always seen as such, but yes, sure. And then Sophia's hand is up. Sophia, hi. Hi. I was thinking about, so it seems like conventional reality is dependent upon the ultimate reality for its existence or its reality. And vice versa. Yes, I was going to ask about this vice versa, because I was thinking about the example of the golden lion. And in that case, it seems that rather than some platonic ideal of gold, of which every golden lion is kind of a degradation of that ultimate gold, it seems instead that in this case, gold only ever exists in this in form. And so it was making me think about the way that perhaps is ultimate reality mutually dependent on conventional reality?

[157:52]

exists in in conventional real phenomenal form or something? Yes, exactly. So this is an important point and this is a big difference between, well, Huayen and Zen and this aspect of Buddhist teaching and a lot of other spiritual practices and including in Buddhism, that the ultimate is not at all separate from each particular thing. There are lots of spiritual traditions where the point is to reach the ultimate and dismiss the conventional or the particular or the phenomenal. That one should ascend to, I don't know what, some heavenly realm and get rid of the mundane. In Zen and in Huayen, it's not at all about getting rid of the mundane, of the physical and the mundane and the everyday. And that's actually part of what I want to talk about in terms of the implications for practice.

[158:54]

So thank you for that. Maybe let's, let's move, move on. We have now maybe 45 minutes left. So I'm going to talk. So hopefully there'll be some, we've, we've, we've covered the majority of the material, but not all. So I want to talk about implications for practice, implications of interconnectedness. So Huayen teachings present these wonderful, inspiring visions of the wonders of the universal reality far beyond the limited perspectives caught within the physical details and forms and conditioned awareness of our everyday life. And that's what you were just asking about. This teaching, first of all, encourages the possibility of a fresh, deeper way of seeing our world and its wonders. I mean, Suzuki Roshi said the world is its own magic. With the encouragement of these teachings, we can sense levels of spiritual interconnection with others and with the wholeness of reality that lift us beyond our ordinary attachments and prejudices.

[160:01]

It doesn't mean that we get rid of or abolish or crush the ordinary world of phenomena, but it's about not being caught by that, going beyond our ordinary attachments. Such visions can help to heal our individual confusion, grasping, and sense of sadness or loss, which is also real, of course. YN teachings also offer guidance for more complete balance in practice. The emphasis on integration of glimpses into the ultimate or even deeper experiences of the ultimate with the particular problems and challenges of our everyday situations can help practitioners not get caught up in blissful absorptions and awareness of ultimate reality or in attachment to the particular problems. So this is, this is key. Attachment to the ultimate or attachment to non-attachment is considered the most dangerous attachment.

[161:04]

Varshna talks about this. So it's possible to get, if one has extended experiences of samadhi or of zazen, one can get caught up in non-attachment and get attached to that and try and stay there and get rid of the world. That's not what this is about. attending to the conventional realities of our world with some sense of the omnipresence of the totality helps to balance our practice and also further informs our deeper sense of wholeness. So in Soto Zen, one of the slogans of Soto Zen is Memitsu no Kafu, which is the house style of intimate connection with the particulars. with each thread of phenomena. So this is a basic sort of orientation towards practice and teaching. And it very much, you know, it's not that it comes only from Huayen, but Huayen is talking about that.

[162:14]

Among the Huayen tools for bringing the universal into our everyday experience are gatas or verses, which include many practice instructions to be used as enlightening reminders in all kinds of everyday situations. So this also is congruent with some of, you know, the Xiaozhou story about ordinary or everyday mind is the way not to try and go beyond ordinary everyday mind. So that's an important Zen koan. Anyway, the 11th, specifically the 11th chapter of the Flower Ornament Sutra called Purifying Practices includes 140 distinct verses to be used to encourage mindfulness in particular circumstances. So some of the following situations are cited, for example, awakening from sleep before, during, and after eating, seeing a large tree, when seeing flowing water, when seeing flowers blooming, when seeing a lake or a bridge, when entering a house, when giving or receiving a gift, when meeting teachers, and many various other kinds of people, or just proceeding on roads that are straight or roads that are winding or roads that are hilly.

[163:34]

Each one of these, there's a particular verse that one can recite to oneself as a reminder of this interpenetration of the ultimate in particular. A few examples, seeing grateful people, one should wish that all beings be able to know the blessings of the Buddhas and enlightening beings. Another, when one gives something, one should wish that all beings be able to relinquish all with hearts free of clinging. Another one, if it went in danger and difficulty, one should wish that all beings be free. unhindered wherever they go. So these kinds of gathas or verses are very common in monastic situations. When I lived at Tassajara, there was a, before the bath house, there was a verse that one recited before going into the bath.

[164:38]

And there were verses, there are verses that one recites when, when offering incense or when, you know, in all kinds of everyday activities. So, Yeah. So that's a little bit about how this teaching can be expressed or used in terms of informing everyday practice. You know, the Huayen essays seem like very philosophical and abstract and not, Laurel has a question. What is the verse for seeing a large, what is that? I didn't see the rest of it. What is the verse for seeing a large tree? Sorry, go ahead, go ahead. You said there was a verse for Encountering a large tree. I was wondering what that verse was. I can look it up later in the Sutra, and I will send it to you.

[165:41]

And I'm right now seeing the leaves of a number of large trees. So thank you for the question. That would come in handy. Email it to me so I don't forget, please. Okay. So yeah, okay. So that's, yeah, we have time for discussion. Just to say a little bit more about how this spread. It spread into Korea very much, and I already mentioned in the image about the ancestors, these three great Korean teachers, foundational teachers in Korean Buddhism, but who were all very much part of what's called in Korea, Gwaom, through their way of saying Huayen. So in some sense, Korean Buddhism is Huayen Buddhism, more than Japanese Buddhism is. Although all of Japanese Buddhism was informed by Kagon. Kagon is the Japanese Huayen school.

[166:41]

I already mentioned Todai-ji, where the great Buddha Nara is, which is a, which is a, a Keiko school temple. And it's really amazing, wonderful temple. If anybody gets to Kyoto area, go a little South to Nara, because it's full of amazing temples. I'll also just mention one of the great Kamakura period Japanese Buddhist monks and teachers, who's named Myoe. M-Y-O-L-O-N-G-E. He lived from 1173 to 1232. He was a Kegon monk, a Hawaiian monk. But also, he was also also Shingon. So, you know, we sometimes see these, these different branches or schools as mutually exclusive. And it's quite the contrary in practice in Asian Buddhism, and now in American Buddhism too, that one can partake of more than one style or approach or form of teaching.

[167:45]

But Myōe, we could do a whole seminar on Myōe. He's, I think, the most fascinating figure in Kamakura Buddhism, Buddhism of the 13th century, including Dōgen. Myōe is just amazing. model monk, he kept a dream journal too. I think 40 years he kept a dream journal where he reflected on the dreams, and a lot of the dreams have images of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. In the medieval Japanese way of thinking, Visions that occur in meditation are also like dreams, so he included those. But anyway, he kept a conscious dream journal, which modern Jungian psychologists are very excited about. He was also, his fascinating, fascinating figure, he tried to go to India because he missed Shakyamuni. He wanted to see where Shakyamuni was. And back then, it was very difficult.

[168:48]

He was in the late 1100s, early 1200s. And there's a whole no-play about how he was dissuaded from this by a mystical event in a shrine in Nara. Anyway, a fascinating figure. But also, Miao Wei, was devoted to the Flower Ornament Sutra. And he actually worked at trying to find practice, ways of practicing things from the Flower Ornament Sutra and putting the Flower Ornament Sutra into practice. So anyway, he's a very fascinating figure. So I want to, talk about the impacts of Huayen on Soto Zen. So, you know, the Fourfold Dharmadhatu that we talked about is clearly the background for the Sando Kai.

[169:49]

which some of you know, the Harmony of Difference and Sameness is our translation of it, which from Fushito or Sekito in Japanese, who was a few generations before Dongshan, and that's about the ultimate in the particular, to put it that way. It's about sameness and difference. So sameness is another way of talking about the ultimate or the universal, that all is the same. all is the oneness and many is also also can be talked about and then differences the particulars so the harmonizing of difference and sameness from the santa chi that we sometimes chant at our temple is about this integration of um the ultimate sameness of all things and the particular, the different particulars of all things and how they are, how they integrate or how they harmonize. So that teaching led to the teaching of Dongshan of the five, sometimes they're called five ranks or five degrees.

[171:02]

And as I said before, my teacher, Reb Anderson, says that Dongshan is not just the founder of Sota Zen, but the sixth ancestor of Huayin. So David, could you put up the image of the five degrees or five ranks from Dongshan? I'm getting there, I'm getting there. Okay. So these five degrees, five ranks, sometimes they're called, sometimes they're seen as progressions from you know, stages of development, but actually they also arise all together. So they're just five aspects or degrees of reality. And I think, David, you asked about aggression and development.

[172:06]

And so this is, oh, and about, you asked about the binary, but this is actually a way of seeing the interfolding of, in his verses, Dongshan calls it the phenomena and the real, the phenomenal and the real. And so just to say the five degrees as Dongshan expressed them, there's the phenomena within the real, there's the real within the phenomena, there's coming from within the real, There's moving within both, and then there's arriving within both. So this is another way of talking about the unfolding of these two aspects of phenomenal and real, but it's a five-fold progression. And so in the Song of the Jewel Marrow Samadhi, the Hokyo Zamai, which some of you know, there's many different fives that are talked about. And so for Dongshan and for the Soto Zen tradition, this is, it's not a binary at all.

[173:16]

It's a five-fold aspects of reality. So again, to go back, the phenomena within the real is the first. That's within the dark and ultimate sameness of universal reality, beyond all distinctions, Dongshan depicts the faint remnants of particular phenomenal potentialities. So within the ultimate, within the real, as he calls it, there are these hints or remnants shades of the phenomenal potentialities, particular potentialities. That's the first. Then the real within the phenomenal, and this is, the realm of phenomenal includes partial images, yet something wondrous of true reality still lurks there. That's like seeing reality in a grain of sand.

[174:21]

So those are the first two, which sort of, they're not exactly the same as the first two of the Fourfold Dharmadhatu. There's a little more complexity. But then third, coming from within the real, emerging from serene, silent experience of the ultimate reality of equality beyond discrimination, arising from such an occurrence to meet phenomena, to enter the world of phenomena. So this is the third coming from within experience of the ultimate to enter into the busy marketplace as it's sometimes described. Then the fourth of these fivefold degree, five degrees is meeting within both. So this is active engagement with both the real and the phenomenon and they're interacting and using both. for beneficial activity, but still they're seen as separate sides.

[175:25]

They're somehow seen as separate. So when we talk about phenomenal and ultimate, we kind of just through our attachment to words, we think there's two separate things. We actually believe that form and emptiness are separate. The fifth one is arriving within both. The particulars and the ultimate are not at all separate, not settling into one aspect or the other. Beyond merely harmonizing two different sides, their integration is fully realized. So this is, these five degrees are fundamental philosophy of Soto Zen. And not just Soto Zen, they're also studied in Rinzai Zen. This is, you know, a dialectic as David was asking about, but not a binary dialectic.

[176:26]

So in my book on Dongshan, I talk about pentamerism and about starfish who have five appendages and five, actually five brains, five neural ganglia, anyway. So this is basic to Soto Zen. And there were particular Soto teachers, both in China and in Japan, who spent a lot of time studying Huayen. Not all, but many. One prominent example is Tosu Yiqing. We say Tosu Gisei Daiyosho. He's in the Chinese lineage after Furong Daokai, or no, before Furong Daokai. He's Furong Daokai's teacher. Anyway, Tosu Ising was a student of Huayen before he entered into Sōtō, and he's one of many Sōtō monks and scholars who apply this Huayen teaching and particularly the five ranks to

[177:42]

to Soto practice. So just to say all that, and then also just to mention that the Linji or Rinzai Zen, going back to Linji, going back to the founder of Rinzai Zen, Linji in China, have this fourfold relation of guest and host, which also in a lot of ways comes out of this dialectic comes out of the two truths, comes out of the fourfold dharmadhatu. So we can talk more about all of that. The last thing I wanted to show, David, if you will, is a bibliography. For those who want to, if you would, to want to read further about Huayen, again, this Thomas Cleary book, Entry into the Inconceivable, is the main source I know of an English of translations of the actual writings of the Huayen ancestors. There may be some more in some scholarly papers now.

[178:50]

It was published in 1983, so a while back. And then, of course, there's the Thomas Cleary translation of the Flower Ornaments Scripture, as he calls it, a translation of the Avatamsaka Sutra, and there are numbers of editions of that. There was a three-volume edition, and there's this one-volume edition, and then there was a separate edition called Entry into the Realm of Reality, which is just of the Khandavyuha. So, and then also Garma Chang, The Buddhist Teaching of Totality is a very useful book on Huayen. Francis Cook wrote a book, Huayen Buddhism, The Jewel Net of Indra. I haven't looked at it in a while, but I think it's also good. And then there's an article on our website, on the Ancient Dragon website that I wrote about Huayen Buddhism and the phenomenal universe of the Flower Ornament Sutra. And then I also mentioned my book on Dongshan, Just This Is It. And there are numbers of other relevant academic articles.

[179:51]

And Jin Y. Park has written a number of them, including one on Hawaiian reading of the Lotus Sutra. So David, if you would please put that, this bibliography in the chat for anyone who wants to look at it. And so, That's all the material I wanted to present, which means that we have a half hour for discussion and questions, and please feel free. I would really like to hear your responses to this or questions about it. We could start with some of the things in the chat if you want, David, but people can also just raise their hands. So please feel free. I'm interested in hearing your responses. So there's a question from Yuki who might no longer be here. So I'll read the question. No, she's here. Oh, there you are. Would you like to ask the question or would you rather have me read it?

[180:54]

Either is good. Well, I can ask it. The question is really about what happens when I engage with the Yavatamsaka Sutra, which is that sometimes I engage with it in kind of a logical, analytic mind. And other times, it just seems like an intuitive, visionary kind of text. And I start visualizing it. So sometimes I'm reading for logic, sometimes I'm reading for images where the images are just flowing. And I wondered if you could comment on that. Excellent. Yes, yes, yes. So the Sutra itself, and I was trying, I was sort of making a binary between the Sutra and the Huayen school, but of course, no binaries, but that, but yeah, the Sutra itself lends itself to this kind of, visionary experience from all of these profusion of images and metaphors.

[181:57]

And, you know, it's just, it's very flowery, the language of the Sutra. So yeah, intuitive kind of response is appropriate, but yes, it's also, you know, possible as we see from the example of these, you know, of at least a lot of the writings from the Huayen Chinese Buddhist teachers, that it's possible what they did is, pick systems of tense. There's lots of tense in the Sutra and in the Huayen teachings as a way of responding to the Sutra in a kind of rational discursive way. So I think both are both are fine. And you know there's some sections of the Sutra that are that you know There's just a profusion of expressions of images of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and all this flowery stuff. But if you can analyze that, great.

[183:02]

Or you can just let go and be carried away by the images. I think either is fine. You know, what we're doing, we've been Dylan or Jason, how long have we been doing these group readings on the first Friday evening of the month? It's been a while. Almost three years. How many years, Jason? Almost, it'll be three years in March. Great. And we're, I don't know, a little bit more than halfway through. So please, everyone, all of you are invited. Welcome. Just join in the first Friday evening of the month on this website, on this Zoom page. And we just have group readings. And you don't have to have the text. You can just you know, just listen, you know, or you can, if you have text or you, we can give you the digital text, you can join in the reading, but that's a traditional way of working with the Flower Ornament Sutra. Read it aloud. So yes, go ahead, Yuki. Well, what I wanted to say is how I first got into the sutra was, I was kind of chasing information on the paramitas.

[184:07]

And I heard that there were 10 of them in the Flower Ornament Sutra. So I thought, Oh, goody, I'm going to read that. And I got into that chapter, and the way that it was organized, you know, didn't exactly, it didn't exactly work with the way that I was approaching it. And so I kind of had to find another way to just take it in without trying to make it into a linear kind of thing. And I find it extremely enjoyable, but I, you know, formation and I, it just didn't work that way. Well, you know, I thank you for mentioning the 10 paramitas. So most of you know that in Zen traditionally, there are six paramitas, generosity, ethical conduct, patience or tolerance, energy or vigor, meditation or Samadhi and wisdom or Prajna, insight. So those yeah, that's the Reb's book about that. So traditionally there are these six, but in the flower ornament Sutra, there are 10, cause there's lots of 10s in the flower ornament Sutra.

[185:14]

So after those six, there is vow, skillful means, maybe that's the other order, I forget, powers or ability, and then knowledge, which is different from prajna or wisdom. Knowledge is knowing about things about the particulars in a way that you can use to help free suffering beings. So those 10 though, there's a chapter on the 10 practices, which is specifically about that. And I think we're in the middle of that chapter in our Friday evening monthly readings, or I think we're up to number eight or nine. Anyway. So those 10 practices, but, There's many other, oh my gosh, let me find all the tens. There are many other chapters, some of them fairly short, where there's 10, let's see, 10 abodes,

[186:16]

10 practices, 10 inexhaustible treasuries, 10 dedications, 10 stages. That's the Dasogamaka Sutra, 10 concentrations, 10 super knowledges, 10 acceptances, Maybe those are all the chapters about tens, but you can apply the 10 practices, the 10 paramitas to all of them. And they all in some way unfold each of those 10 paramitas or practices. So thank you for that, Yuki. Samantabhadra's vows, are there 10 also? I think there are also 10. Yeah, there are 10 vows of Samantabhadra. Everywhere in the Flower Ornament Sutra is 10. So 10 vows of Samantabhadra, yeah, many things. Thank you. You're welcome. So other comments, reflections, questions, responses? I was wondering about the six characteristics of phenomena.

[187:31]

You didn't talk about that. That refers, I think, to the barn and the rafters. I'm not sure, I can go back and find that in Fa Zang, but. Yeah, I think it's Fa Zang. He talked about the barn and the rafters. Anyway. Yeah. So the Hua Yans, teachings, the Huayan ancestors, they have, they all, there's all five of them, and actually six or seven, if you want to include Li Tengshuan and Dongshan, have these long essays, especially the five Huayan ancestors that go into elaborate many different tens and many different details and aspects, commenting on the Flower Ornament Sutra, but the, they get into their own expressions of the unfolding of everything. So, you know, I'm sorry that there's not, I mean, Cleary's book, Entry into the Inconceivable is the one place I know where there's a lot of these commentaries translated.

[188:39]

There's not a lot of Huayen studies. There's some, Jin Park is one scholar who studies Huayen, but there are others. And those are all mostly in academic papers, but, Yeah, they're so rich, these essays, and very dense. And really, as I said, you could stop after each sentence and contemplate what is being said. I mean, Doggett's the same way, of course. So thank you. Other comments, questions? There's a lot of things in the chat, David. Well, yes, there's a lot going on in the chat, and some of it is questions. There's one question, and that's from Dylan, who says, are there 10 10s? Please, yes. I don't know how many 10s there are. I think there's also in the Flower Ornament Sutra many thousands or hundreds.

[189:42]

So there's probably 100 10s anyway, whatever. powers of 10, and Charles's hand is up. And then Bryant. Yes, Tiger, you talked briefly about the four virtues. And I guess what I'm wondering is, is there a distinctive approach to the virtuous life that comes out of the Huayen school? Yeah, I think there were actually six virtues, and I just hit on four of them. But that's an interesting question. I, of course I would say yes, but I'm not, I'm not sure if I could distill it down. Um, you know, there are discussions of the precepts in the Sutra. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think the whole thing is about the virtuous life. The whole thing is about the unfolding of the practices and workings and, uh, impacts of bodhisattvas.

[190:44]

So it's all about virtuous life, but, uh, expressed in, in, in various different terms. But, but thank you for that. Cause yeah, that's, that's an important way of looking at the whole thing. And then I think that, I think, Bryant and then Yuki. Yuki, is your hand up again for a new question? Yes, yes. OK. Bryant, concisely, please. I hope to someday get to the point where you don't feel the need to preface that with concisely. OK. A quick note for anyone that's making notations on the six characteristics, Cleary's book has it on page 40 and the analogy of the house and the rafters as an analogy for describing those. Thank you.

[191:46]

And actually, my comment to share was from Francis Cook's book, Jewel Nut of Indra, Real briefly, I thought it was very interesting, he talks about a culture's art as it depicts its philosophy, and he has several paragraphs, but briefly, in the West, there was a predominance of focus on portraiture, and often the person is the predominant figure in the painting, and nature has about a tiny little window Whereas if you go to the art of the Far East, you see predominantly landscapes in which man is a small part, he's still a part, but you see the totality of the landscape, mountains and rivers and all that, which sort of evidences the Eastern sort of philosophical, cultural influence maybe of the Huayen in that sort of totality thinking.

[192:50]

Yes. And vice versa. Right. Good. Thank you very much. Yeah. So, um, actually there's not a word traditionally for nature in East Asian culture. Uh, that was a later word based on the Western idea of nature, but there is this term landscape. So the mountains and waters Sutra is the, of Dogen is called Sansui Kyo and Sansui mountains and waters is landscape. So yes, exactly. East Asian art is all about nature, the environment, the landscape. And then there often are little human figures as part of that. Whereas we tend to think of, you know, traditional medieval Renaissance painting in Europe, there's a, you know, the Mona Lisa, I'll just give her as an example, with all due respect to Leonardo, that there's the Mona Lisa, and then in the background, you see little elements of landscape.

[193:54]

So, yes, thank you for that, yeah. And, you know, That's an implication of YN, but I think it's also just part of the culture. Thank you. Other comments or questions or anything in the chat, David? Yuki, I think your hand was up. Oh, Yuki. Yes, yes, I think. I just wanted to mention that once upon a time I happened to be at the city of 10,000 Buddhas when they were doing this wonderful practice where they recite the names of each Buddha and each Bodhisattva mentioned in the Avatamsaka Sutra with a verse of praise that goes to each of them and they bow several times to each one and that entire practice takes them 10 days. Wow. It just gave the magnificence and scope of you, you know? Yeah, yeah, that's, and yes, that's wonderful.

[194:59]

And they do a lot of sutra reading in that lineage. And a lot of, when they're reading sutras, they often circumambulate the Buddha hall in and out of the different rows of seats. It's a, yeah, wonderful practice. Thank you. Rarin mentions Steve Oden's book, Process Metaphysics and Huayen Buddhism. Thank you. And Jason's hand is up. We have two Jason's. Hi, Jason. Hello. Firstly, thank you very much. That was a lot of fun. I took a lot of notes and I will be following up for the next few years with questions, I think. But my main question is, so there are a lot of portions in the Flower Ornament Sutra where they speak at times rather disparagingly about the body.

[196:00]

I think one of the lines that's coming to mind is thinking of the body as a corpse. And you had at one point in time said that that's sort of a carryover from Indian notions or Theravada traditions and perceptions about the body. I'm wondering in hearing this and what you've said about this school and where we sit as Zen practitioners, that there's not this sort of same disgust at the body. When did that shift? Like what has shifted in between the beginning of Flower Ornament Sutra and when it was starting to be written to us now? Yeah, well in traditional Buddhism, both Theravada and early Mahayana, there is this

[197:03]

you know, there's this practice of sitting in the charnel ground. It's talked about in the Vimalakirti Sutra and just to see bodies, literally bodies decomposing as a way of cutting through lust and desire. And it's a part of Buddhism. It's part of the Buddhist tradition, but there's also, and it's seen in some of the Huayen and it's seen in uh, some of, uh, Japanese Zen, this sense of, um, you know, there's not the whole idea of, uh, nirvana is right in samsara, uh, not in, not in terms of trying to get rid of the physical, but actually celebrating it. And I think, you know, one of the things that's happening that's is happening has been happening in Americans and, is a celebration of, or seeing as realms of practice, relationships or families.

[198:11]

So what was called lay life in Asian Buddhism, and particularly in Soto Zen, you know, Soto Zen clergy can't be married and have children. some of us do that, not all. So yeah, the to see those as realms of practice rather than as something to be avoided, I think is part of the development of Mahayana Buddhism. And historically, we can see it, you know, there are parts of both in the Flower Ornament Sutra, I think, and in in the Vimalakirti Sutra and in other Mahayana Sutras. The Lotus Sutra maybe is the one that includes body more. I don't know. So yeah, it's an important issue in terms of how do we bring real Buddhist practice into our culture

[199:22]

which is not to disparage the monastics, but to see that there are various modes. And of course, the Sangha that we have in Chicago, Ancient Dragon Sengate, is a non-residential Sangha. So we live, we practice in the world and with relationships. But, you know, it's really a koan. How do we not get caught by the physical or the ultimate? So thank you for that. Can I ask a follow up to that then? Absolutely. Cool. Um, so, in the four Dharma dhatus, it sounds like in that dialectic, when you get to the neutral non obstruction of she and she. it almost sounds like that is the shift in some ways, like to get, when you stumble into that or realize that or practice with that, then you're opened up to both like, well, the body is a corpse, but also like we get a dance too.

[200:39]

Right. Yes. Dancing is important. So, um, I think it's in the third also that the ultimate is in all of the phenomenal expressions, in the physical. So they're not separate. But then when you get into the fourth Dharmadhatu, To see the mutual non-obstruction of forms and forms is, I think, pretty challenging for us in some ways. How do we see the mutual non-obstruction of... I could give political examples, but I won't. How do we see how each of the forms of the world are interpenetrated with each of the other? And then how do we practice with that? It's not enough to just see all this stuff. So the Huayen teachings do provide a kind of practice context, but it's easy to see, to look at it at first and see it's just these philosophical descriptions.

[201:53]

but to put it into practice as Mioe tried to do in Japan. How do we have this sense of the interconnectedness of all things and all things and the ultimate and, and, and, and actually practice with that. See, see how that is part of how we express awareness in our lives. So thank you. Ririn. Yeah, I'd like to speak to that because that's all, the phenomena is actually the tricky, you know, tricky part. And so the six characteristics of phenomena speak to that for me. So that when we see the, let's see if I can find it. It's universality, Okay, let me just read it.

[202:56]

The six characteristics of phenomena. The universality, particularity, identity, difference, integration, and disintegration. And they are all interconnected. And when we look at the barn and the rafters, we can see that, that the rafters, you know, you cannot have the barn without the rafters, or you cannot, the rafter without the barn is, you know, is not a rafter. It's just a, piece of wood, you know, so that, that makes it, I think, much more clear. And for me, that's a practice to visualize this and, and actually see, yeah, it's, they don't obstruct each other. It's, they're both, they're phenomena, they're, you know, particulars. And at the same time, they're also universality. Yes. Thank you. So on that note, I'm suddenly curious why there are only five, I forget the names of them, but why there's no coming from within the phenomena and only coming from within the real, number three of five?

[204:10]

Well, in some ways the phenomena within the real is coming from the phenomena. But yeah, emerging from experience of the ultimate is, actually gets to our practice. So when we practice in Zazen or an extensive Zazen experience, we get this taste of the ultimate. How do we bring that back? So coming from within the phenomena into the real or into the ultimate, would be like thinking that the point of practice is to merge with the ultimate or something like that. That, I think, could lead to attachment to emptiness. That's really helpful. It's a kind of transcendentalism that might not be helpful. That's really helpful. So some people have to leave.

[205:19]

We're kind of, we're almost at 4.30 when we were supposed to end, but I'm happy to hang out for a little while longer if there are, and I haven't looked at the chats. There's a question in the chat. I hope you'll look at it. Which one is it? So I'm just opening the chat for the first time. So could you read it to me, Yuki? Uh-huh. It says, Taigan, how has knowing the Huayen affected you personally in your practice and life? Oh, wonderful. Thank you. Well, yeah, of course. It's about not being caught by our perspectives to see, you know, how intricate our reality is and how intricate our ways of being caught by parts of reality are and so not to hold on to some idea or some perspective or some

[206:33]

perception or some opinion, um, which, you know, sometimes we do, it is, that's what attachment is about. So not to, not to hold on to non-attachment either, but to, uh, you know, it's about balance and flexibility. So, um, that's a little bit. Thanks Brian. Anybody else who hasn't spoken yet? Any responses to all of this stuff or comments or perspectives? Please feel free. I know that Robert's hand was up at one point. I don't know if Robert's there, but. Yeah.

[207:35]

I guess I would maybe ask the difference between the How do you say, like, like, is the difference between the absolute and the relative in the way that wants to express it just about like what consciousness is doing at any particular time? Hmm. Well, the Hawaiian perspective on the absolute or relative or the ultimate in the particular, however you want to say it, is that they're not separate. And that's what the five degrees are about too. But of course we do get caught in one or the other. So how to see when, you know, to not stay caught so much or to see when we're caught and to see how all of it is interactive, interpenetrating, is not mutually non-obstructing is the way the fourfold Dharmadhatu puts it.

[208:40]

So we can see have an attachment to some particular or to some universal, and it's not obstructed by other viewpoints and vice versa. Go ahead. Because Suzuki Roshi will talk about big mind and little mind in his book. And maybe I'm too quick to identify big mind with the sort of absolute that we're talking about here. And I'm just misreading Suzuki Roshi. But, but it, but it seems like those are, those are mutually exclusive of each other for any like individual, like stream of continuous conscious experience. Well, Huayan would say, no, they're totally connected, but Big Mind refers to like Dharmakaya, like by virtue of the Buddha, like, like awareness or the Buddha in all of us being totally, totally inter,

[209:42]

with everything, big mind, the self as the whole universe. That's not how we think. That's not the ego, the ego, which is necessary. This is the conditioned particular sense of our own self. And, but to not be, but to see it as, to see ourself, our small self, to put it that way, as totally interrelated with everything else. So the small self and the big self, you know, from a Hawaiian point of view, depend on each other or interconnect with each other, to put it that way. Do they maintain distinct, like what we're saying that, they're like not separate. Right. Oh, that's an important point. They're not, there's still the distinction of the particular and the distinction of the universal. They're not exactly, it's not like everything melts into one, you know, piece of silly putty or something.

[210:49]

It's, it's that each, so the respecting the particulars, which is like respecting the physical, the bodies, The physical is not just an expression of the ultimate. The physical has its own distinction, but it's not separate. So not separate from is a better way of seeing it. So it's not that they're identical. They harmonize, they integrate. It doesn't mean, like the melting pot as everything is the same. One can express one's own particular identity or ethnicity and fully express that without seeing that as I have to kill all the others, you know, as there's a mutuality as well as the particularity.

[211:51]

Does that help? I've got to sit on it, but yes, it does help. All of this is material to sit with. It's one thing to just hear that this is the teaching of Huayen, and it's another thing to actually digest how that is for each of us in the varieties of experience. Anybody else who has not spoken yet, or maybe there, David, if there are people. You should hand us up. Okay. This is, this has just been helpful to number one. Thank you so much for today and for all that you've given and everybody has given. But, uh, A while ago, a teacher of mine told me to start getting daily things from NASA and daily shots from NASA to expand, to expand my mind to stuff that I have no, absolutely bearing with.

[213:07]

And it took me a while to start reading the descriptions, which, you know, but two books that I've read, three books really have helped me, um, It just always seems like there's a limitation using my human brain with other humans and words to explain this or to try to understand this. But Si Montgomery wrote a book called The Soul of an Octopus that I just finished. Oh, I love that book. mind-blowing, mind-blowing to me. So now I'm reading The Entangled Life, How Fungi Make Our Worlds Change Our Minds and Shape Our Futures. Once again, once again, and last year at this time I read a book, and I can't remember the author's name, but on world migration of birds and what they're finding out about the little, the computers they can put in the birds and find out about how they exist. And it's been referenced here in talking especially about the Japanese paintings where man is little, or men and women are little.

[214:14]

I don't know, your words mean, and everybody's words, I just try to listen because these books, yeah, like the soul of the, just explode my mind. And my mind needs exploding because on a day-to-day basis, I've been born human. And to live in a human world, somebody in something I was listening to yesterday said that David Hume started, the philosopher kept trying to get to a point where he had a thought that wasn't perceived, that didn't have anything to do with perception. And I don't know whether this is true or not, but it was said in this talk. And that he finally couldn't do that. He realized that he couldn't, there was no thought in his mind that wasn't a perception. And so he gave up philosophy and just became a backgammon player. Now, whether or not that's true or not, it sort of helps me with this thinking of ways to explode my constrictions.

[215:23]

There are times where I've just been in it, and then there are times in which my mind gets boggled by the words, and I realize that I don't know that I can find my way out. So, I thank you immensely. Soul of an Octopus. I'm glad you've read that, Taigan, because it's mind-blowing. It was just beautiful. It was just so beautiful. Well, I would also mention in connection with that, I mean, this is some, you know, points to modern science and how it's so illuminating of why and truth to put it that way. There's also a movie called my octopus teacher documentary, which is amazing. I highly recommend it. And, you know, it turns out that octopus, the octopuses are extremely intelligent.

[216:29]

I mean, you know, we think we as humans own intelligence and that's just, so that's another way of thinking about all of this. There are books, The Overstory is one of them, about how forests are intelligent beings. And so this is something that's been discovered by modern quote-unquote science. In addition, the octopuses are, just to go back to that, octopuses are extremely intelligent. They can problem solve, they can communicate. This movie, My Octopus Teacher, is about this relationship of this guy in South Africa with a particular octopus. Unfortunately for us and for octopuses, they have a very short lifespan. So, you know, they haven't developed the capacity to write books or whatever. But forests also, and this is, again, modern science and a lot of you know about this, the mycorrhizal undergrowth of forests, the fungus that underlies a lot of forests, or maybe all forests, is a conduit or a network by which

[217:45]

different trees in a forest can communicate with each other, including trees of different species, and share nutrition, and share warnings of, you know, human encroachment or whatever. So forests are, as a whole, are intelligent beings. And to piggyback on what you're saying, and I just have to say it, is that perhaps it's not unfortunate that they don't live long lives. That's our humanness putting a, because the other side of their transition or where they came from, who knows? Okay, right. To know that there's so much we don't know is very important to practice. Or to know that there are limitations of our human, perceptions, you know, I, I can't see behind my head, except that I see it on the background of the zoom, but you know, we all have limited human perceptions and faculties and consciousness.

[218:49]

And so part of the Hawaiian thing is to see other possibilities beyond our usual ways of perceiving and thinking and so forth. So, yeah, thank you for all that. It's getting to be a while after 4.30, but I'm happy to, if anybody else has something you would like to say. Bryant? To add hopefully to the octopus discussion, there's a movie called Arrival, based on a science fiction short story, which has aliens coming to Earth, but the aliens are similar to octopi, And those aliens have developed a completely different way of communicating than we as humans know. And one of the themes of the movie, based on what's called the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, is that the way we think in terms of our language shapes the way we perceive reality.

[219:54]

So our very descriptions of reality shape it in our mind in a way that isn't necessarily representative of the way reality really is. And I think that gets right into what the Huayen is also all about, is the multiplicity of, or the infinity of perspectives on things. Yes. And, uh, David Ray, it looks like he left us, but, um, uh, I was talking about, uh, dualities and binaries and there's a section in my book on Dongshan, just this is it, uh, where I talk about biological pentamerism. I already sort of mentioned this, that, uh, starfish have five neural ganglia in each of their arms. And so I talk about the five degrees or ranks in terms of the biological impact of that and how

[220:55]

we are used to seeing things in terms of yes, no, front, back, and so forth. But other beings, there was, I read a science fiction story about this a good while ago. If anybody knows it, please let me know or knows of it. It's a, and I forget who wrote it, but it's similar to what you were talking about. It's an alien comes and the humans, are trying to understand its language. And it's, um, I forget if it's five, I think it's five fold, but it's, it's kind of a circle. And as, uh, so it, the, it's books, it's writings are circular and as they expand, the circle just gets larger. And. Might be actually the story that I was referring to called the story of your life by Ted Chiang. Maybe. Because in this movie depiction from the story, circles are used by this alien race almost in a pictographic way.

[221:59]

Yes, I remember. I saw that movie, yeah. Yes, it's good. The Arrival, is that what it's called? Yeah, or just plain Arrival, I think. I think Amy Adams is in it. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I loved it. Recommended, yeah. Anyway, good. So hopefully this exposure to Huayen can break down some of our limited conditioned ways of perceiving and thinking and open up other possibilities. And that's in some ways what Huayen is about. And so again, in terms of just the writings of these Huayen ancestors, this Cleary book, Entry into the Inconceivable, is very good. There are excerpts of them in other books like The Teaching of Totality and I think in the Cook book as well. Maybe we'll stop there. Thank you all very much. Please feel free to go to the Ancient Dragons Engate website and enjoy our podcasts and other opportunities.

[223:07]

Oh, and the one important announcement I wanted to make to all of you, and some of you are in other states, which is great, is to please vote. The democracy itself and the right to vote and persecution of women and many, many other important things are all on the ballot now. So that election is coming up. So thank you all very much. Thank you. Thank you very much. Bye-bye.

[223:38]

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