Good evening, everyone. So over the last few days, my old friend Hosan Alan Sanaki, Dharma teacher from Berkeley, has been here teaching in a few different contexts. And he spoke yesterday morning about his own difficulties with depression. An interesting topic. He's been practicing Zen for 30 years and is a noted Zen teacher. So it was an interesting talk. Several of you were here. And I wanted to comment on some of what he said, and actually Nathan sent a long response, and with his permission I'm going to refer to some of that, a little bit of that anyway.

[01:05]

So Alan talked about, well he talked about his own, well he talked about it in various ways, his own sense of I started off by talking about dread in some cases, and history of depression, and he talked quite openly and movingly about this. So one thing to say, first of all, is that our practice is about actually facing what is, and facing ourself. And one way to talk about this is in terms of, well, there are lots of aspects of this. And so I'll touch on some of them. But one way I think of to talk about this is in terms of the teaching of, well, what we chanted tonight, the metta sutta of kindness and intimacy.

[02:19]

And love and kindness to oneself is included in metta practice. And he talked about parental mind. And Alan mentioned, and Nathan mentioned the line, even as a mother at the risk of her life watches over and protects her only child, So with a boundless mind should one cherish all living beings, suffusing love over the entire world. And that applies to our own complex difficulties. And in some ways to talk about depression is to talk about, as Alan mentioned, dukkha, the first noble truth, the fact of dissatisfactoriness. And we can talk about all these things in various different ways. Another way that I think of to talk about this is in terms of the writing.

[03:28]

I thought about chanting it tonight, but I wanted to leave time for us to discuss this together. But Dogen's writing Genjo Koan, the 13th century Japanese monk who founded this branch of Zen, wrote one of his Essays, Genjo Koan, talks about to study the way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be awakened by all things. And then he says somewhere else, body and mind of self, another fall away and the original face is manifested. But this studying the way as to study the self, you know, as we sit here and not just in one period like tonight, but to do this practice, to really commit to settling into this practice and doing it over time, which is how it really works when we are willing to stop and sit and face ourselves over time and study the self, means to be willing to be present with the difficult aspects of being in this body and mind.

[04:44]

What it's like, not just our ideas or stories about ourselves, but what it's like to actually be here. this evening, this body and mind, on this cushion or chair, and, you know, tomorrow, and three days from now, and so forth, to study the Self, and not just analytically, or theoretically, or in terms of some constructs, but, you know, how does it feel? What is it like? And to be intimate with that, and to be kind, parental mind, to treat ourselves kindly, to become intimate and familiar with our own struggles. This isn't separate from how we take care of others, of course. compassion is to be, to feel how we feel with others. So Alan talked a lot about friendship, too. And this has to do with, to study the self is to forget the self.

[05:49]

This doesn't mean ignoring the self. It means actually opening up the self, to see that self and others are connected. So part of what happens as we settle into this kind of practice of actually facing ourselves, not running away from ourselves into some intoxication, some easy answer about the world and ourselves is that we see our connectedness, that we actually create all of this together. But we have to take responsibility for our part in this. And this is difficult. And we do have difficulty. And so, you know, Nathan made a number of comments about this that I thought were really good. So we talked about, so I wanted to share some of this and make some further comments.

[06:54]

Well, first of all, just this parental mind, this means kind of intimacy with our mental states as the best medicine. He quotes, Nathan mentions Uchiyama Roshi, The teacher of Shohaku Okamura is coming next month in September. What does it mean for the present-day person to become an adult? It is nothing other than each one of us becoming a bodhisattva, where we see every encounter as our child, and discover our joy and ardor in life through looking after each of our children. And that means looking at ourselves as our children. looking at all of the emotional conflicts as our children, being kind, but also taking responsibility, but being loving, like a mother to her only child.

[08:03]

So this word depression can cover a lot of things. Alan talked about it. openly and eloquently in terms of his own life. Nathan talked about how he's heard the word used to refer, and he gives a list of different ways the word is used to refer to a vaguely bad feeling, or to a crisis of meaning, or to general sadness. or to chronic low mood or low energy, or mental distress during life, difficult life transitions, or just restlessness, or persistent negative thought patterns, or any combination of these. Depression, he says, can also refer to states in which it is impossible to imagine any escape, or to make any plans to escape. And Alan was talking about some feeling of dread where he actually thinks about

[09:08]

running back home when he's traveling and being far away. So we may each relate to various aspects of that. So Alan talked about being a teen and feeling this deep pain. And this is something that I share with him as a teenager. What am I going to do with my life? And Alan talked about going to a therapist and asking that, and the therapist said, that's a spiritual question. And Nathan comments that actually there are now many, of different kinds of therapies now that actually deal with that, and therapists that deal with those kinds of questions and issues. And I know that's true, but for me, there were a couple of years where I was deeply depressed just because I didn't see anything worth doing.

[10:14]

What am I going to do with my life? And various things happened, and eventually here I am. And I still sometimes hear myself asking, what am I going to do when I grow up? Well, I guess I'm doing it. I don't know. Whatever this is. But you know, that was a kind of depression. And some of these general sadness. Alan spoke yesterday afternoon at DePaul about systems of suffering that are caused by things in the world. If you look at the way things are in the world, maybe it's a sign of sanity to have some general sadness. One aspect of my own sense of depression or sadness is just looking around the world and the difficulty we're in.

[11:16]

And then there's mental distress during difficult life transitions, and certainly when things happen and we have to, you know, when we have to relocate or we lose a job or lose a relationship or, you know, any major transitions, that's unsettling. So there are all kinds of of these states, one of them for me is just a general level of anxiety. I don't know if that's the same thing, but feeling like I have to take care of all the details of things around here. Sometimes I do too much, and the Dhawan says, hey, actually that was my job, why'd you light the candle? But a general, you know, some kind of general level of anxiety about things, and maybe that's okay.

[12:24]

Maybe we should be paying attention and kind of concerned about things in the world. My teacher, Reb, sometimes says, talk to me about the six realms. Hell realm, and hungry ghost realm, and animal realm, fighting, and God realm, and heavenly realm, and human realm. The human realm, he said, which is actually the best realm to be in, because you're not too intoxicated with pleasures to forget about suffering, and you're not too miserable to imagine practice. So human realm is the best realm to enter the Bodhisattva practice from. but he says the human realm is characterized by a constant vague state of nausea. So, you know, this is the First Noble Truth. Things are, you know, things aren't so, aren't the way we imagine them. But then there's also being depressed, and I think of that sometimes as deep rest.

[13:29]

You know, I can feel depressed and kind of, okay, I can just forget about, I'm just, I'm gonna take a rest. I'm just not gonna worry about all my responsibilities or whatever I think is my responsibilities, and just, you know, sometimes there's some comfort in, you know, we were talking yesterday, I think about wallowing in that. And that's too much. So anyway, part of studying the self is seeing the various qualities of suffering that we each have. Nathan went into some length about the mental health industry and all the ways in which depression gets labeled by pharmaceutical companies who can make a big profit off of marketing medicines for, so-called, for depression.

[14:32]

Anyway, sometimes those help. Anyway, this is about the Four Noble Truths. How do we respond to the difficulties of the world? And of the world that's on your cushion or chair right now. So there's this connectedness. How do we study the self? How do we let go of a self-obsession? So forgetting the self means that we see that we're connected to others. So letting go of self-obsession doesn't mean ignoring what's going on in the self. Being intimate and kind to the self means seeing our own patterns of self-obsession, seeing our own patterns of craving or frustration and anger, being intimate and friendly enough with ourselves to not act out based on those things.

[15:39]

But being kind to our self, what does it mean to be kind to our self? We each have our own particular patterns of all this. We each have to study ourself for ourself, and yet we each can support each other. So Sangha is how do we find a way to hang in there together while we study the self, while we engage in response. Nathan mentions creativity, and Alan was talking about that a lot too, and how do we bring forth each of us? There's some of you in the room now that I don't know, but I know the people I do know, and actually even the people I don't know, all of you have

[16:40]

great creative resources. Everybody here is a very creative person. How do we express, and that creativity is about how we express this, well, in some cases maybe it's a struggle with depression, depending on how you want to define that. But how do we express our response to the study of the self? and the study of our connection with each other as we do this, to our response to the life, to our life and the life of the world. And they're not separate, really. So, I wanted to just respond a little bit to some of what Alan brought up in Nathan's comments. Oh, and the other thing I'll add, also from the Gateway Co-op, And this is something I've been thinking about a lot, and I've talked about some, and I'm thinking about more. And that part of studying the self and forgetting the self is to shift perspectives on how we see the self.

[17:57]

So in Getchup Cohen, Dogen talks a lot about and seeing other options about how we see ourself and the world. And he uses many, many examples, being out in the middle of Lake Michigan and looking around and seeing it just like a circle and not knowing the specific details of the shoreline. And yet, it's not just a circle. There's a detail to each of our circles. just how do we know water, and realizing that we have one view of water as human beings, but the fish have another view. So being open to seeing that there are other perspectives. I think this is about forgetting the self. Maybe that's enough for me to say. So I'm interested in your comments, those of you who were here yesterday and those of you who weren't here yesterday, about any of this, about how we

[19:01]

study the self, how we respond to the difficulties of being here ourselves and together. Comments, responses, questions, please feel free. depressed first period of the day, the winter's nice, it's dark outside, five kids are in class, and it's easy to want to be somewhere else. Yeah. I remember noting some sense of record, the park, Just a brief part of it where, is it this mind itself is Buddha?

[20:08]

Am I getting that right? Well, there's an old saying, this very mind is Buddha. Right. Master's. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. So I think it's important to see that whatever is happening, is an opportunity to see that this mind is Buddha. Whether it's states of elation or states of depression, it's a real opportunity to wake up. Good, yes. Each situation is an opportunity. Dharma gates are boundless, you've got to enter them. So, even in difficulty, there's some opportunity. Yes, Paul. I think it's important to, and this isn't to diminish anybody's pain or suffering, but to draw a line between depression and sadness and the First Noble Truth, because I think these are very different things.

[21:20]

Depression is a, it's not, you know, a chronic, I'm sorry, depression is a chronic thing, such as alcoholism, or it's a, you know, it's a disease. And it's often overdiagnosed disease, I know that, but it is a disease that is not, not diminished, like Jeremy just said, but it's not something that you feel first period. and then later it goes away. Yeah, there are definitely, you know, neurological, biochemical conditions that are included in that term. I think, you know, I'm referring to depression in the widest sense of the term. But yeah, there are medical conditions that, yes, that's one aspect of it, absolutely. Yeah, I just find a lot of times people, I feel, The word gets stamped on so much when often times it's just a part of, you know, it's dukkha, it's a part of being alive, it's, you know, being uncomfortable or being anxious, but that isn't to me, to me that it isn't

[22:39]

Well, you know, I think we could say that all of this is part of DUCA, but I know people very closely who have serious, we could say, medical depression. I know people for whom medication has been tremendously helpful. So yeah, yes, what you're saying, I very much agree with. And I don't know how I was talking about it. I think from his perspective, he was talking about his situation. I think he didn't include that. He didn't talk about it in terms of, I think he talked about having tried medication. But he was talking about how he was practicing with his version of this. But yeah, yes, it's important to say what you just said. medical, biochemical, whatever it says, that can be helped with medication, definitely.

[23:42]

Yes, hi. You just mentioned that it should be mindful of how depression manifests itself. I started going to therapy for anger issues. How possible? After doing some techniques with therapy, I found myself not taking, not getting angered, not taking actions with more depression. And it turned out that depression was the real issue and not necessarily anger. Anger was just the reaction to the depression. Depression is the hardest part. It still is. Sometimes we think, I think there's a whole spectrum. So again, acknowledging what you said, Paul, about there are medical situations. There's also, I mean, there are situations of pain and sadness and damage.

[24:49]

That was something I said yesterday in terms of talking about this. I think everyone everyone I've really talked to is damaged. Maybe I should just speak for myself, but we all have suffered loss, and in some way or other, by being alive. And that's, you know, apart from biochemical situations, And maybe that contributes to that, I don't know. So situations of anger, or when we are dealing with someone who is angry or causing harm, or when we're dealing with fear, often there is some sadness or pain or depression underneath that. So this is a very practical, what you're saying is very helpful and practical, when we're having difficulty with

[25:52]

whoever, friends, family, co-workers, whatever, to look at someone, it doesn't mean to ignore the situation, but instead of just trying to oppose the person or being antagonistic, to look at what is the sadness or what is the pain or what is the difficulty that this person have this feeling underneath the anger here. You know what I'm saying? To add to that, I mean, something that came up is that I grew up in a very vibrant part of Chicago on the South Side, where you still see so many examples. Yes. So much of the paper of the day. And that could be an explanation of some of the causes that people don't have economic means or resources. Absolutely. some type of oppression that can manifest itself.

[26:55]

I mean, I was surrounded with violence all my life growing up. And I sometimes fail to see that connection between the violence around me and the violence within me. Absolutely. So there are systemic sources of suffering that have to do, and sources of all of these problems that have to do with not the individual's fault or whatever, but that there are problems in our society that have to do with discrimination, with bigotry, with class, the class warfare that's going on, I think that's an accurate way to put it, that lead to these kinds of situations. and that then cause individuals to feel anger and frustration and lack of hope and that causes all kinds of things. So there's that as well as you know, biochemical individual things.

[28:00]

It's just, there's a huge range of what's behind this. And again, the practice, our practice, is studying the self and looking at all of this. And it's, you know, there's a lot of It can be overwhelming, but how do we act so part of our practice is to settle and find enough stability to be able to study the Self over time and be kind to ourselves as we're doing this, because it's not easy. So you have to be kind to yourself and really to study the Self really Stop blaming yourself for whatever is going on, but look at it kindly, slowly, gently, steadily. Yes, Jim. the extent to which you're feeling broken and weighed down and there's so many people out there that are hardly heard from, that can be a manifestation of

[29:47]

a great deal of internal anger and you're directed against yourself. Yes. And the effort of holding it down and the energy that goes into it can't manifest Yes, thank you, thank you. Yes, so there's one reaction, which is rage and violence, and there's another reaction that you're talking about, which is feeling frozen or dead. And non-violence is not about that.

[30:51]

Non-violence is not passive. True non-violent response is very active and dynamic. And there's a kind of training in non-violence. It's not about being dead. And it's very easy to get stuck in what you're just talking about. And so creativity as a mode of active response means. How do we find each of us our own way to respond creatively where we cut through that deadness but don't, you know, are not just lashing out but find a vehicle, a way to respond. Douglas? that even in the middle of periods of clinical depression, Alan found value in sitting on the cushion and waking up and being intimate with those feelings of dread and that this is never going to change.

[32:03]

And I think it is important to remember something you said, that the Zazen isn't a fantasy and it's not going to cure clinical depression. I really was surprised, and I have certainly sat through really the worst periods of my life and through physical illness and found value there, but I really found it sort of surprising, actually, that, you know, that dread and sense of darkness, of clinical depression, that still he found some value in doing it. That was very moving to me, and you have way and not trying to distract myself or hide from it. It really did move me. Yes, as is the practice of feeling what we feel, of being willing to face ourselves, of being willing to just settle into studying, you know, feeling this body-mind as it is and staying with it.

[33:20]

And it doesn't fix it, it's not a panacea, it doesn't fix everything, but there's a kind of power and transformation that can happen when we can find our own way to be present right in the middle of whatever crap we're dealing with. And that gives us a resource to kind of respond. And again, it's not about fixing it, but anyway. Yes, Ben. I think sort of building on what Douglas said, what I found really inspiring about Alice's talk, and about the personal truth, is this idea that existence is suffering, is unsatisfactory, and that we don't magically get away from that. that doesn't naturally go away. And I think that that's a, it's a real radical statement, right?

[34:25]

We live in this world where you're told if you're not happy, there's something wrong with you, and you need a special kind of pill, or a new car, or a better personal trainer, or something to not make you feel bad. And I think in those moments of deep depression, there's a weird dynamic, at least there has been for me, Simultaneously looking around and thinking everyone else is happy, I'm not. Man, I'm really fucked up. And also sort of thinking this is never going to end. There's something about turning to it and saying, OK, well, let's acknowledge this and look at this and accept it. It doesn't make it go away, but it helps you relate to it a little bit differently.

[35:26]

And I really appreciated his honesty in talking about that as an ongoing process, and it's not something that you magically figure out how to fix yourself. There's a constant ongoing process of trying to be kind to yourself. Good, thank you. Other comments, anyone? Well, okay, just to close, please, all of you, please, please, please be kind to yourself. It's okay to be the person sitting on your cushion or chair right now. It's okay. As terrible as you are, as miserable as you sometimes are, as mean and nasty as you can sometimes be, don't run away from yourself.

[36:36]

It's okay. You are each wonderful as well. Truly. And just stick to it. Without, you know, trying to fix everything. Just enjoy how strange and weird and amazing you are.

[37:15]

@Transcribed_v004
@Text_v005
@Score_82.82