No one says, I have an amazing body practice. You know what I mean? And I know that's not how you feel all the time, right? But I think it's really a nice moment in time to be able to say that. And I'd like other people to experience something like that, or the possibility. It is possible. Yeah. So why don't you just tell me a little bit about which part of it you think of as practice? Practice used to be mostly a mental event for me. It was happening from my neck up. When I first came to the city center, I was always working with thoughts in my mind and such. But then, as time went on, I started to notice I had other body parts, especially when they went wrong, which I thought was wrong.

[01:07]

When I was diagnosed with Parkinson's, I thought, Oh my God, this is terrible. You know, until I started working with it. What do you mean by working with it? Letting myself feel it. letting go of the reaction to the feeling, and then dealing with the emotions of it, right? Because it had a real big impact on me emotionally. How do I describe emotions that are, well, they're connected with other people. I felt confused, because people weren't treating me the same way anymore. I used to be a pretty lively person, and friendly and outgoing, and then I had this whole thing coming down on me that was not friendly, not outgoing, somewhat depressing.

[02:29]

And I didn't know what to do about it. So for a few years, I really struggled. And struggled is mostly? Mostly it was trying to find a cure. Uh-huh. Trying to fix it. Yeah. Solve the problem. Which kept me occupied. Yeah. You like to tell people that it's normal It's okay. It's okay. Pain is a whole other thing to deal with, but there are ways. I remember Cohen was her first name, before she passed away. Anyway, she taught people how to deal with pain, specifically that one symptom. which I thought was pretty good.

[03:31]

Okay, Darlene, yeah, that was great. Did you get a chance to work with her? Yeah, yeah, I drive up to her place. So what other parts of this feel like practice to you? In the ups and the down periods of my life, they're happening at pretty high frequency. So every morning I get up and review what I have to physically do before I even get out of bed. Because once I get out of bed, I have to pay attention to where I'm going. And then I get up and see, test everything out. So, but practice is about awareness. It's about paying attention. Because it's all you've really got. Your awareness. And if you have it scattered about, or if you're doing things with your mind that don't have anything to do with what your body's doing.

[04:43]

Yeah. I could often do. Yeah. I used to live my life that way. You end up making mistakes that are not good. What I'm hearing you say is that illness pulls your mind to your body, but then that experience of tracking your body feels like practice. Yeah, it is. It took me a while to see that, that my practice was now going to center around my body. So it's a body practice, even though Zen is a body practice. It's different when you're forced into it. or you think something really bad is happening, and that once you get over that bad thing that's happening to you, then you can get back to practice, or then things will be okay. Meanwhile, you're bummed out, you're unhappy. Right, I really resonate with the thing you said about, then you can get, when this is over, then I can go back to practice.

[05:48]

Right. It's so easy to think that thought. For years. I, yeah, I remember in the beginning when I first was diagnosed, I could, I was just my normal self, but it very gradually, thank God, got worse. Right. So it started to pull you towards it more. It was just like the practice pulling me because I got more involved in it. And then I made a turn. Six months, a year ago, something changed in my practice. I gave it up. I gave up the struggle with Parkinson's. I gave up fighting it. I still do research on it just to see if there's anything new going on.

[06:52]

And I'm about to, hopefully next year, join a Parkinson's group so I can share my experiences with them because they are really lost. They are unhappy. They're living at the direction of their doctors, which I don't do. I make up my own mind based on what my body does. But I've been paying attention to my body for so long It's reliable. Intuition is reliable. So I have intuitive feelings way before something's going to change. And I get ready for it and then it comes and I change and it could be a simple thing like not eating something or picking up something else new to eat or little things. They all assist me in my decision making.

[07:57]

So you've, they give you information, but the location of the decision is in here. Yeah. Over the years, what I've observed is you've had turns. Remember when you said, well, when I got Parkinson's that I had to find true stillness? Oh yeah. That was really a turn, you know, it's like, oh, it's not about holding your body still. Because that's no longer an option for me. Yeah, where is stillness in a shaking body? There was only one thing that was not shaking. That was true stillness. So one thing that, and this is sort of between the lines of what you're saying, but like our identity is part of what we're dealing with, right, when something like this happens. Right. You have to give that up. Give up your idea of who you are because you can't do what you did to construct that identity.

[09:05]

And a lot of what we do is maintaining our identity. And if you can't maintain it, what do you have? So I became a painter. Mm-hmm. I had to do something. So it's not like you have no identity, but like you just, you whipped out some other identity. New one. And then you may have to whip out more. Right. Others. Yeah. See how this goes. I have no idea. All the materials I've read on is downhill slope all the way. What kind of encouragement is that? It doesn't necessarily have to be. I see so many discouraged people because they think that they believe it and yet there is no knowing.

[10:06]

Look at Stephen Hawking. I just saw him interviewed and he said, oh they gave me two years to live and here I am so many years later and I have a big theory about placebo, that it's not just, you know, you take the placebo that's a sugar pill, but then you get better along with everyone else. So that was fake, but what is it really? Even if it's just short time. So I have a real strong reaction placebo. So I switch around all my medication, do all kinds of things to kick it in and it'll work for a while. When you think about these people who are so discouraged, is there anything else you'd like to say to them? They should get physical therapy, speech therapy, a whole variety of medications to dabble with, to try out and never stick with one thing.

[11:12]

That's my advice. So we talked about Parkinson's and you gave some specific advice on what about people with other so-called body practices that they could be doing or fear that they have about losing their aging, you know, just normal aging or they may have a chronic illness or they may have some other. I would say by the area of the teaching that resonates with them and that will change. I mean, because everything is always on the roof. But once they find an area they relate to, stay with that for a while until it's time to move on. Find another area of the teaching, but keep the teaching close because I would have drifted if it hadn't been for the teaching. I studied the Sixth Ancestor for a week, just one week, 10 or 15 years ago, and it had a huge impact on me.

[12:24]

You're encouraging people to use the Dharma teachings as some kind of anchor or some kind of, you know, touchstone. it doesn't matter what kind of illness you have or to what degree you have it or what's going on in your mind if you can slow down your breathing and enter into your body and be quiet long enough How long, I don't know. But as long as you can do that, then you'll see the connection between what you're rejecting and the other side of that.

[13:32]

Because there's two sides to every situation. including you being sick, or including you dying, everything is built like that. I have no idea why. I'd like to know, though. Is there anything else you've thought of that you want people to know? I'm happy. I have no idea why I'm so happy. I feel like your illness is some kind of... No, it's not a ball and chain around my neck. It annoys me at times and it hurts me to the point of crying occasionally. I will, if I fall hard enough, it'll cause me to cry. But it goes away really quick. As soon as the pain lets up, I'm okay.

[14:35]

I'm a big believer in taking pain medication if you need it. Sounds like you don't have that many rules in a way. Rules? Yeah, you don't have no drugs, drug, whatever. Oh no. You don't rule anything out. One of my monitors is my mood. Apathy or depression. Depression, mood, apathy, those are all non-motor symptoms of Parkinson's. But I know that there are also symptoms that are very common around regular people. I have a real sympathy for people who have depression or have apathy. And I have tried a couple of times to talk to some of our Sango members about that subject because there are ways to work with it. Yeah, I would never, if I had two days of apathy, I would ring an alarm bell that I could stay there and not move, and that would be bad.

[15:44]

It seems like there's a subtle line between when to do something, when to apply the practice, in what way, you know, like first you have to just say, oh, I'm having apathy, and so you kind of accept it in a way, but then, like you say, it's also an alarm bell. Right. It has to be dealt with. Even if it's telling Bruce to fire up the wheelchair and let's take a walk. Which fresh air will help, little things like that. Then I have this drug that helps. See I've learned all this stuff. So I try to tell people that they're afraid to veer off their doctor's plan. And their doctor is not in their body. It can't make adjustment for the changes that the body goes through. I discovered my brain changes a lot in terms of cognitively.

[16:48]

It goes up and down cognitively. So right now it's up to about there. This is about as cognitive as I stand. This is pretty cognitive to me. Yeah. That's why I have a hard time committing to stuff. Yeah, this is a lot easier for me to do than to have to give a talk with no feedback. This issue of feeling like something's wrong or something's wrong with oneself. Yeah, and having to fix it. And having to fix it. Yeah. That's where we kind of have to try to fix it. But your attitude has to change. Because if you think it's something bad, it isn't. It's just the other side of good. And those two sides play off each other in life.

[17:51]

Yeah, the frequency is what makes a difference. There is a frequency that I've noticed that goes faster and faster and faster until it's like a straight line. And that's stillness. That's, now I'm, you know, I'm into science. I'm looking for confirmation of that idea in science and in Dogen's Mooji. It's abstract. But I think it's meant to be abstract. Well, it also sounds like what you're talking about is not so abstract. When you talk about the other side, the two sides and all that, I can tell that it's not abstract for you. I'm not totally sure I understand.

[18:53]

I mean, I'm with you up to a certain point, and then it's like, what? The two sides? The other side of good? That kind of makes sense. But I can see that for you, it's not an abstract thing. You're like pointing at something you're looking at. Yes. Which is cool. That's great. Yes. It's not so much. I just think that it's the finger pointing to the moon, you know, at a certain point. Where is she pointing? Right. But up to that point, we're like, oh yeah, I see it there. Yeah. You know, you're going up and down. Right. You've been listening to a conversation between BZC practice leaders Alexandra Frappier and Laurie Sanocchi, recorded in August of 2017. We hope you enjoyed it.

[19:42]

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