Okay, so tonight is another night, I think we've had two so far, of remembering Sojin Roshi. My name is Ellen Webb, I think I know almost everyone here, so you probably know me too. And tonight we have three speakers, Raul Moncayo, Walter Kieser, and Jake Van Ackeren, and they're all longtime students of Sojin, and most of us are used to having them around, although they haven't been around quite so much recently, but I think most people know them, and for those who don't, they'll talk about themselves. So I thought we would do it in that order, Raul and then Walter and then Jake, and each one of you could take about 15 minutes to talk, and then at the end of all three speakers

[01:06]

we'll take questions or comments from everyone here, if whoever wants to speak. So Raul, would you like to unmute yourself and begin, and I'll tell you in 15 minutes unless you already have stopped, okay? Okay. Good evening, everybody, can you hear me? Yes? It's nice to see the familiar faces, I haven't seen you guys, many of you, in a long time. It's nice to see everybody. And I'll skip some of the, you know, the kind of biographical things, because we know each other, and maybe some of you don't. So I started practicing with Sojin in 1978 at Dwight Way, I had just arrived from Europe,

[02:09]

and I ended up living on McGee Street, half a block from Dwight Way, I went to San Francisco Zen Center, and they told me, oh, you should go to the Burpee Zen Center. And so I went, and so I started sitting in the afternoons, and started meeting with Sojin for Doku-san in that little space he had, you know, next to the kitchen, where he did Doku-san, and I was pretty, like a lot of us, pretty drawn in by him, you know, by his kind of purity and radiance and kindness. And so I took up the practice. And then I sat the first Sashin, five days Sashin in 1980, I believe that was Sashin when Daniel was being born, and Sojin had to leave the Sashin for some time.

[03:15]

And then, you know, pretty much since 1980, I practiced steadily ever since, you know, sitting Sashins and doing Rohatsu every year. And then I received lay ordination, and I couldn't be a priest at that time because, well, made a number of things, but one of the one because I was married, and that wasn't kind of part of the equation of the marriage. And so then after I divorced in 1994, then I got ordained in 1996. I'd already been Shuso, I was the third, fourth Shuso, after Mei-Li and Rebecca, and I'm forgetting her name now. Fran.

[04:20]

Fran, thank you. So I was the fourth Shuso after the three of them, and then, you know, I was ordained after that. And then I received Dharma transmission about 10 years ago. And, and then finally, you know, I left BCC, he encouraged me to start Blue Mountain. He wanted me to have the experience of being a teacher and having a sangha. And so, so I did that. And so now I kind of, kind of live a life similar to his, not only because, you know, he taught me how to sit, and he taught me how to sit the way he sat, which wasn't easy.

[05:26]

And I stuck to it. It was hard for a long time, very rewarding at the same time, but quite difficult. And but I stuck to it, and he helped me work through it and work through some of my delusions. And, and just, you know, suddenly and gradually shedding unnecessary attachments or, or clinging to things that are not useful for self or others. And our relationship also has some tensions, because, you know, you know, Suzuki Roshi didn't work and didn't think that priests should work. And Sojin didn't work either.

[06:30]

And he followed Suzuki Roshi in that he didn't handle money at all. He was not involved in finances of BCC as far as I know. But I had to work and I had to make a living and support myself. And, you know, I was interested in psychology and became a psychologist, you know, while I was practicing at BCC. I started practicing before I went to graduate school. And so, you know, I had to work and I had a profession. So that was different than his practice and different than Suzuki Roshi's. But other than that, the basic staples of the practice are the same and continue the same. You know, I've been at Blue Mountain for two years now. And we have a small sangha.

[07:31]

Luckily, you know, there's always somebody sitting with me on Zoom. And when we do sesshins, I've been allowing three people in the zendo in person. I mean, me and two people in person and the rest have to be on Zoom. I think that was the last guideline in terms of how many people could be in person. And we've served the guidelines, of course. But so my life now is, you know, I'm single. I live as a monk. And I go to bed at eight at night and I get up at three in the morning and I study or write from three to five in the morning. And then I prepare for Sazen after that, you know. And I do that every day except for Saturday. And then Sunday, we have a Sunday program.

[08:37]

And I've been fortunate to just have people joining me and supporting the practice and me supporting them in their practice. And I'm going to be ordaining a couple of people after COVID. Some are already sown and others are still sowing. But probably it's not going to happen until the fall sometime. Also, I changed my style of teaching the Dharma. I don't prepare lectures anymore. And I just, you know, speak without preparation or so many notes. I decided to do that, change the style. And so I've been, you know, using Suzuki Roshi's books to comment just like he did.

[09:42]

And now that he's passed, I'll start talking more about him. Like probably all of us will. And I didn't want to speak too much about him while he was still alive and people go and listen to him directly, you know. And I've also have developed relationships with students in China. And I teach, people have been contacting me from China. They've been very interested in my book on psychoanalysis and Zen Buddhism. And they're very interested because they're trying to, you know, learn from the West. And they have some feelings about the appropriation of Chan by the West. So it's a careful balance.

[10:45]

But apparently, you know, I'm receiving the green light so far. And you can't do anything in China without approval of the government. But so far, so good. And maybe I will be allowed to start Chantang, Zendo. Chantang is the word in Chinese for Zendo. So I plan to go there after the pandemic. And I'm also teaching Lacanian psychoanalysis and I'm writing a book with a Chinese student, a Korean student that will be translated into Chinese and Korean, and on Lacan and Mahayana

[11:47]

Buddhist thought. And they're very interested in that over there. And, you know, it was China, you know, I mean, Marxism came from the West, right? So they're very interested in Western thought. And for them, it's a very intriguing possibility of somebody who is well-versed both in Chan and Lacan. And in this last book, I have unearthed, excavated, how Lacan came up with the Borromean knot, or the Psyche, which he attended as a year seminar of Mahayana Buddhist thought in Paris. With whom he called his teacher, his master, his teacher, who was the foremost Sinologist in France at that time.

[12:48]

And he translated all the Yogacara and Basubandhu. And so I've been able to establish how Basubandhu goes from, you know, I mean, the Yogacara goes from Basubandhu to Lacan. So, and of course, Lacan is part of the Western tradition of mind, European tradition of mind. So, but they don't have a lot of Lazen practice in China, other than monasteries. So that's something new for them. And they seem to be very interested in recovering their national treasures. So that's very interesting for me.

[13:52]

And, you know, very nice people, very warm. And so we'll see, that will provide an opportunity. And we'll see what happens, what comes out of that. And I suspect they'll be traveling back and forth to some extent. I have the painting here in the back that Sojourn gave me. I think it was for when I was Shusol. I have two paintings by him, this one. And then he gave me, when I opened Blue Mountain, he gave me one of his paintings of the angel escaping the fires of the Holocaust. I don't know if you've ever seen that painting. But it's in pencil, black and white. But it's pretty, has a very strong feeling to it.

[14:58]

And somehow I feel that he represents that, the angel escaping the Holocaust. So, probably it's about 15 minutes already, huh? It goes fast. About a minute and a half left. Okay. So I feel very happy, you know, now that I don't have problems. I do. But, you know, I work with them in ways that I've learned, both from my practice, but also from Sojourn, and not holding on to things. And carrying the practice forward, you know.

[16:03]

It still feels fresh to me every day, every time I sit down and, you know, it's like the first time. And it completely invigorates me and gives me the energy to carry forward. And to help a lot of people. I mean, I still, I mean, aside from the song, I still work about 20 hours a week with people in analysis, trying to help them make some deep changes. And I feel that that's a kind of natural extension of the ground of Dharma, of course, it's a different kind of practice. But, you know, my life right now, it's all wrapped around the practice. So, I think I'll stop there. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Raul. So, we'll move on to Walter.

[17:20]

Hey, thank you, Ellen. Yeah, thank you. Good to see you. Good to see everybody. As Raul has said, I'm going to tell a little bit of biographical material like Raul did there. But I'm going to do a little bit of a different twist of honoring our teacher, Sojin. I began practicing in 30, let's see, 20 years ago, in 2000 or so, when I had a medical emergency. And that led me to thinking about my life and wound up at BCC. And shortly thereafter, spent a week or so at Green Gulch with Sojin, a retreat where the Sandokai was being talked about. And so that was the beginning of my practice with Sojin. And I left, speaking of everybody going different places,

[18:25]

I moved back up to Sonoma County where I grew up in 2016. And I'm living up here with my family in a house that we built in Geyserville. And I am, at this time, leading a small Zen group here in Healdsburg that Meg Alexander, who some of you may know, started. And we are working together with the ENSO community to develop the practice that will be involved there at that retirement facility here in Healdsburg. I've been working on that project with Zen Center for a decade or more. And it's finally coming to fruition. And so I'm involved with helping them develop what will be their practice and forms. Anyway, that's what I'm doing just now. But what I'd like to do is do a presentation that I call Walking with Sojin.

[19:28]

As you know, if you know him well, that he loved walking. He walked a lot. And he never stopped walking until very, very near the end there of his life. And I imagine that he's still walking and walking still. And it's just that he did a lot of walking. And he did walking, obviously, in the streets of Berkeley, mostly with his dogs, as maybe some of you joined him with, walking the trails of Tilden Park, walking the mountains and streams at Point Reyes during our Rivers and Mountains machines, walking the streets of Kyoto and other places in Japan that he visited, walking around the Zendo. He did a lot of walking. I had the great opportunity to spend a week or so in Kyoto with Sojin years ago. And he walked my tail off. I was in pretty good shape at the time. At least I thought. Every night I was like, oh, my God.

[20:31]

I can't die if I have to walk this much again. But he really loved it. He loved walking around everywhere. So I hope some of you had that experience to enjoy walking with Sojin. It was one of the ways he taught, I think. And it was certainly a great pleasure to share that with him over those many years. And I mentioned the Rivers and Mountains Sutra. The backpacking Sashin that we did each year for a while, twice a year. And then after that, once a year. It was a Sashin style and backpacking in Point Reyes that actually Ken Nabb initiated and others have carried on with over the years. And as a part of that Sashin, the theme always was and what was taught or what Sojin taught was Sansuikyo.

[21:33]

Rivers and Mountains Sashin. Rivers and Mountains Sutra, I should say. And if any of you have had an effort, made the effort to read that, it falls under the category of challenging. What the heck? And it was always amazing to me that Sojin would always stay with that text. And despite the fact that oftentimes in this Rivers and Mountains Sashin, people would come along that had very little experience with Zen or training whatsoever. And even those of us who did found that text, find that text a challenge. But Sojin persevered and stuck with it. And I've had the opportunity to participate in that Rivers and Mountains Sashin after he ceased walking there. By the way, he stopped walking to that Sashin when he could not or would not be able to carry his own backpack. He wasn't going to take any easy way out.

[22:36]

If he couldn't walk the whole walk and he didn't carry his backpack, he was done. But after that, it's carried on and I hope it still does. I thought it'd be interesting and an honor, Sojin, to read just a little bit of the Sansuikyo and just give a flavor for it and then give people an opportunity to understand a little bit about what he might have seen in this. I'm going to read three parts of it, not the whole thing. It would take an hour, take more than an hour. These mountains and rivers are at the present moment are the manifestation of the way of all Buddhists. Each residing in their Dharma position have completely fulfilled their function for these Buddhas. Because these words signify conditions that existed actively before the Buddhas disappeared into the realm of emptiness, they refer to something that exists here and now.

[23:39]

And because they signify the self before any sign of these Buddhas appearing, they transcend anything that manifests before our very eyes. These various spiritual merits of mountains are so vast and so far reaching that the merits of our practice of riding the clouds certainly be attained because of the mountains. The wondrous effect from our following the wind is completely liberated thanks to mountains. The monk Dorgai of Mount Gaeko in instructing his assembly said, the verdant mountains, dharmas or forms, so Jin would tell us, are constantly walking. And the stone woman in the dark of night gives birth to her child. The mountains are never lacking in spiritual merits which they are undoubtedly endowed. This is why they are constantly at ease and are constantly walking.

[24:40]

By all means, you must study in great detail the spiritual merits of the mountains walking. And the walking of the mountains is just like the walking of those who wander through life in ignorance. Even those of you may think that it seems different from the walking of humans, nonetheless, do not doubt the walking of mountains. The mountains walking. Switching to the rivers, comment about the rivers. As for water, it is neither strong or weak, nor is it wet nor dry, nor does it move or stand still, nor is it cold or hot, nor does it exist or not exist, nor is it diluted or weak. When frozen solid, it's harder than a diamond. Who can smash it? When melted, it is more yielding than diluted milk. So who can tear it to bits? This being so, we cannot doubt the qualities

[25:42]

of the various forms of existence that manifests before our very eyes as water. For now, just concentrate on learning to recognize through your training the moments when you are able to open your eyes and see water in the whole universe as the whole universe. And learning through training does not refer just to times when ordinary people or those in lofty positions see water. There is your learning through water training in which the water sees water. Because the water puts the water into practice in order to realize what the water is, you should thoroughly investigate the water expressing what the water is. In this way, you will manifest the pathways upon which we ourselves meet ourself. Until then, you must go back and forth. And that road of life upon which others are all involved with making a study of other until you leap free.

[26:46]

The fascicle also talks about or runs into the topic of teaching and there's a at the last part or near the last part of this sutra. It talks about teaching. I did want to say one other thing that I forgot earlier that the word sutra is used here, which is kind of unusual because it's usually associated with the words of Buddha. And of course, Dogen knew this. And he doesn't mean that this is a sutra about mountains and rivers. It's basically that mountains and rivers, this experience indeed is a sutra. Mountains and waters form an emptiness is a sutra. So in the teaching part, there's a transition of an ancient teacher which I will read. Dogen really liked this fascicle.

[27:52]

He and I spoke about it more than once over the years. Again, from ancient times, there have been wise ones and sages who live by the water. While living by the water, some caught fish, some caught humans, and some caught the way. All these traditional styles being in the water. Along with this, there will be those who catch themselves, those who catch the hook, those who are caught by the hook, and those who are caught by the way. Long ago, no sooner than had monk Dai Ching abruptly left his master, Yasheng, to go live by the Huating River, then he became acquainted with the sage of the river. Was it not a fish he hooked? Was it not a person he hooked? Was it not the water he hooked? Was it not something from the water he hooked?

[28:54]

That someone could see Dai Ching, is he being Dai Ching? Dai Ching's teaching someone is Dai Ching being someone. So those are just three pieces of this that I pulled out because I thought it was representative of the whole piece. These are all parts that Sojin particularly appreciated. So how is it that these mountains walk? And how is it that water doesn't flow? This is where people get a little caught. Mountains don't walk. They're just stuck there, right? Water runs downhill, right? So what does this mean? A lot of protests and confusion followed in our many discussions about this. Some years later, after struggling with this, Sojin said to me with one of his smiles, oh, it's fairly easy. And I said, well, that's great.

[29:55]

How's it easy? He said, well, maybe if you just remove the hell. I said, what do you mean, remove the hell? And he said, well, maybe if walking becomes waking. Maybe waking. Maybe that makes a little more sense. The mountains walking is the mountain waking. The appearance of the mountain as a representative form, moment by moment appearing, vanishing, appearing again, always in the same Dharma position, but never fixed or permanent. Just mountain, mountain, mountain, mountain. And it's just like you. That's the walking. That's the waking. And as for rivers, no river flowing, but just river, [...] appearing, vanishing. So this is just a wonderful teaching

[30:58]

that is one of the strongest connections that I developed with Sojin over the years. Having spent so much time talking about it and going over it at those wonderful mountains and river sessions. And it was a wonderful, wonderful experience. And I'm still inspired by it today. Happy to answer any questions about this beguiling piece. And like I said, wonderful teaching from Sojin and his constant walking. Thank you. Thank you, Walter. And now, Jake, if you would remember Sojin Roshi with us. Oh, you're muted. Yeah, thank you, Ellen. Okay, so I'm gonna be kind of all over the place,

[31:58]

to start with the thing that Sojin's left me most with, I think is the idea, not the idea, of the practice of living in harmony with one another and with environment. And that what usually gets in the way of that is ego, is self. So with that statement, maybe that'll carry through as a kind of a theme as we go through some things. So I consider myself to actually be a newbie. I did sit after reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind in the early 70s. And I actually lived very near city center at the time. But I didn't want to go to any kind of an organized place that time of my life. But I did teach myself Zazen. And I sat for, I don't know, like 10 years. And then I drifted away from that in my 30s. And then in the mid 90s, I began sitting with Ed Brown

[33:03]

over at Green Gulch. He had a thing going on with my wife, Leslie. And eventually, we live in Pleasant Hill. And so we wanted something closer to say, oh, Berkeley Zen Center, that's closer. So I went there. And I remember having my first Dōkasan with Sojin. And back then, he was Mel. I think he became more Sojin in the early aughts, somewhere in there, like 03 or so, somewhere in there. But anyway, my first Dōkasan, I was a little nervous, very nervous. And so I made my bows and all that. And I'm sitting there. And he said, you know, you're very tense. Look at your mudra. And I looked down at my mudra. He said, look at your thumbs. They're really pressing against one another. He said, you want a light touch, just barely touching,

[34:07]

as if you're just holding a piece of thin paper between the thumbs. That's always stuck with me in Zazen. And that's one of the first things I check in my posture is, how are my thumbs doing? And when they're apart, I'm usually day drifting, daydreaming, and that sort of thing. And when they're really tight, I'm tense. So that's always stuck with me. That was my first Dōkasan. And I really felt, though, in that first Dōkasan that he saw me. And that's when I decided I wanted him to be my teacher. I had been in therapy for a while for various issues. And my therapist said, you know, I think you need a teacher. And I never thought of that. But that sparked me to think, well, maybe I need... And she meant a spiritual teacher. And so I began thinking about that. And I found Sojin. And sure enough, he was my match. And it wasn't so much what he would say to me as what he wouldn't say to me, what he left for me,

[35:08]

and how he didn't judge me in my various states. And also how he knew just when to put in a word or a cue that kind of led me on right. So that's kind of how I got into the Berkeley Zen Center and became my teacher. For lay ordination, sewing my rākosana, I was thinking, I told him about my travels in the mountains and backpacking. I was really hoping for this mountain name, you know, big mountain, hardy climber. And what he gave me was Hoshin Bokorin, which is Dharma faith, unadorned practice. And when other people were getting these other names, Deep Pool and all that, I thought, but I've come to love the name. He really nailed me with that. Because the first part, Hoshin, Dharma faith, I'm a faith type, and that's what I am.

[36:13]

Yeah, that's just kind of how I am. And the Bokorin, unadorned practice, he got right. Because I took that to mean, after many years and little ledges from him, is, you know, let go of all those things that aren't important. Let go of ego. Basically, let go of ego. Let it go. And that's been my direction, trying to let go when I get stuck on things so much. Then for lay entrustment, several years ago, I really like this. I'll read it to you. He wrote on the back, the true person is not anyone in particular, but like the deep blue color of the limitless sky, it is everyone, everywhere in the world.

[37:17]

And I believe that's from Dogen. He took that from Dogen. But I so treasure that. That's his gift to me. Um, I think Bob said in one of these things, he asked Dogen, what shall I say was your teaching when you're no longer with us? And Dogen replied, I think, Bob said, when I forget myself, I find myself. And I think that gets back to the harmony thing too. Letting go of the ego. A few things I want to touch on that I don't think some of the other speakers in the past months or weeks have talked about in no particular order. There's some things. Well, for classes, you know, we would have these classes from Dogen. And for those of you who haven't had his class, he basically pull out the book and just read sentence by sentence. And then every few paragraphs, are there any questions?

[38:20]

And once in a while, he would elucidate on some obscure Chinese thing or Japanese point, but basically it was just dry reading. And it was not really that interesting to my opinion, but someone would ask a question and his eyes would kind of light up and he would really engage the subject and get into a non-duality all the time with this and that. And it was a whole different class. And sometimes in the beginning, he would say, well, before we begin today's class, are there any questions? And there would be hands and we would never get to what he was going to go to. And it was great. It was terrific. Just his answers discussion and the questions was the best part. Another thing I want to mention is Don Rio. Don Rio is the, you know, practice of Fukudo, the drum, the Tokyo, the chanting and then the Don who does the bell.

[39:24]

And every so often he would call a Don Rio group teaching. And he would always say, well, the ones who are here, the ones who aren't here are the ones who really need to be here. He always said that. But again, with this harmony thing, he would call someone up to sound the bell and he'd say, no, [...] no. Almost like it. Like this, you know, like that. And then he would do that with the chanting and get really into the nitty gritty stuff. And he loved that stuff. And we did too. It was just like, that was great. We'd get into these obscure things about when the Fukudo does this and the Don does this and the timing with the Doshi. It's all a dance. The Don Rio, it's a dance. It's with the Doshi and the Don and the Kokura and the Fukudo, it's all together. And if you're off, if anyone's off, the whole thing kind of falls apart

[40:26]

or can fall apart. I remember, you know, when you're Don, sometimes he would turn around and just, what are you doing? And then with the Fukudo, sometimes people would be so off, including myself, he would start doing the beat. It was crazy. It was just crazy. But that's one of my favorite memories, that kind of stuff. And that had to do with the harmony too, because he felt, you know, it's not a performance. This is an enactment of a, it's like bowing. Another thing too, you know, I was on the board for 10 years and I'd like to claim that that's a record, except that I know Mary Dury, I think is in her 12th year altogether. So she holds the record probably. But when I was board president,

[41:26]

I got to see a different side of Sojin. At the time, the buildings were falling apart. That's a little exaggeration, but not too much. I think Walter would attest, they needed attention. And so we needed to raise big money. And to fix the buildings. And Sojin always liked to go back to the idea of, well, let's use volunteers whenever we can. That's the way he did it, you know. But we got to a point where we couldn't use volunteers. We had to pay people. And it was interesting to see how, with regard to money, Sojin didn't care about money when it came to himself. We would say, it's time for a pay raise. He didn't care about pay raise. He would say, I don't care. I will be taken care of. But when it came down to this doorknob or this doorknob, he was really interested in that. Or if you're dealing with the landscaping, rocks, very important.

[42:28]

What rock? He didn't go out and pick out rocks. So he got very engaged in that sort of thing. Another thing that happened while I was on the board, more of a dark side, is that there were serious, serious personality conflicts with some board members and non-board members and people who were kind of in the know. And things were happening where a small group, in fact, a fairly good sized group of people left. They left the Sangha. And that was very hard. And watching Sojin and talking to him, you know, he let it go. He said, they're doing what they want to do. Maybe they'll come back, maybe not. But he didn't let it eat at him that they left. And I also saw him. You know, we think of Sojin as fairly mild.

[43:30]

And I saw him yelling at people. I was in a room once with another person. And there's an argument going on. And they got started. This other person and Sojin were yelling across the room at one another. And I'm just sitting there. I was kind of in the middle of it. And what? And there were times when Sojin was not talking to other people. And I was an intermediary. And I was carrying messages back and forth. And he was relaxed about it the whole kind of time. And I said, well, doesn't this bother you? Well, yeah, but no. No. That was a good lesson for me to let it go. And when people would leave, sometimes he'd say, well, I'd like to talk to so-and-so. And he said, would you talk to so-and-so about maybe? Well, no, I'd like to talk to him. I said, well, why don't you do it? He said, no, I won't do that. No, they have to come to me.

[44:32]

I'm not going to go to them. But he let them know that I'd like to talk to them. Some enduring things, because I know time is getting close here. Most of you know, maybe most of you don't. He was a huge 49ers fan. I mean, huge. He didn't like baseball after the strike. You know, the player's strike that gave up baseball. Didn't like basketball particularly watching. But football, 49ers football. And he would watch football, he told me. And when the commercials came, because he watched live, he would read something, maybe some Dharma thing. Commercials off, and he'd go back to the game. And I asked him, why do you like football so much, the 49ers? It was the plays. I understood this. The intricacy of the plays and the options and the dance of the quarterback with the receivers and all that, he just loved that. And he was a Joe Montana fan. He used to have a Montana poster. Office. The other thing, politics.

[45:34]

He was really into politics, and he loved to talk politics, and he knew all kinds of stuff. And he used to give a state of the nation report sometimes once a year. Usually toward the end of the year. And sometimes people would squirm a bit because you think, oh, he's going to get a little over the edge here with his feelings. But he always would end up saying, vote. That's the most important thing. I remember that. Another thing, I remember him driving in at 540 in the morning for Zazen, and he would invariably have NPR on. And that's what I had on my station. And I could tell he was going to listen to the final piece, even though I had to get in and get my seat. Oh, driving. He had this pedestrian driver relationship thing. I think it came from when he was a taxi driver in San Francisco. But if he saw a pedestrian, and he was driving, and he'd think the pedestrian maybe let the

[46:36]

pedestrian cross the street. No, no. He would go on. He would say, no, they have to wait. And he even gave a mini lecture once on that, saying it's inefficient to have the driver stop for a pedestrian because you're wasting gas. Pedestrians should wait for the driver. Well, that's one thing. But he rode with me once. And he would say, I'd be slowing down. I don't want to hit that pedestrian. Go, go, go. Don't let him go. That's how he would talk. Go. Don't. It was crazy. But that's a side of him a lot of people didn't know. He loved puns, wordplay. And I was thinking about walking. Walter was talking about he backpacked in mountains and rivers, but he didn't backpack other places. I kind of asked him once, well, why don't you backpack more? And he said, well, I went with Liz once, and we went to a place. We got a couple of miles in, and I thought that was perfect. I didn't want to go any further. I just wanted to sit by this tree and enjoy it. That was it.

[47:36]

She wanted to go further. He said, that's why we don't backpack together. I don't know. So those are a few things. Let's see. Jake, you're just about out of time. Out of time. You know, the big thing about Sojan was his intuition. He was the most intuitive person that I've ever met. And I suspect that a lot of that, he was just in his genes. He had that, born with that. And some of it, of course, was kind of through his long practice. But he's a super intuitive person. And I loved him and do love him. And now I will be saying, well, as he used to say, he would say, well, my teacher, Suzuki Roshi, used to say. Now I say, well, my teacher, Sojan Roshi, used to say when people asked me something. That's it. Thank you, Jake. And we feel very honored because we know there's a Warriors game going on that you joined us.

[48:39]

So now we're going to take questions and also comments from anybody who'd like to add something at this point. I think Janae wanted to read a poem. But if anybody wants to raise their hand. What? Did somebody say something? Oh, if anybody wants to ask one of our three speakers a question or just make a comment, please raise your hand. You can do that through the reactions button. And I will call on you. And the first person I see is Randy. Randy, would you unmute yourself or Charlie? I think I want to ask Raul about Sojan's love affair with the etiological dictionary. The etiological dictionary.

[49:43]

I've never heard of it. Etiological. Which dictionary? E-T-i-l-o-g-i-c-a-l. An etiological dictionary is a dictionary that shows the derivation of words. And he used to quote it during lecture. He says, my etiological dictionary says this about kindness. Kindness comes from the Greek or whatever. You don't know anything about that, evidently. Nope. Okay, I'll ask all of the other presenters. What do they have to say about that? He had a lot of dictionaries in the library. I mean, we had all kinds of etymological and antonyms and synonyms and so on.

[50:44]

So, you know, but I never knew that he was so interested in words or in language. So maybe that's something that he didn't want to share with me. Jonathan, I know what you're talking. I know what you're talking about. Oh, Jay. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. And he would do that all the time. Like with compassion, he would say, well, compassion is calm with passion. Then he would get into the Latin or the Greek. And I knew that so much that in my talks, I would try to throw that intentionally. And then see if he would be looking at me when I did that. He liked that. Yeah, he did. Okay, Ross, would you like to unmute yourself? Surely. Thanks, Ellen. I've got a question for Walter. Walter, I'm curious how the Mountains and Rivers Sutra helped inform your experience out in the mountains and rivers.

[51:46]

How did it shift your experience? Well, it was actually probably the other way around. Rivers and mountains. Right. I mean, to say that the Sutra just gave me another... So Dogen Zenji was a naturalist, right? He loved the mountains, and he loved the rivers, and he loved them as they were. And he used them and loved them as they were and as they are. But also, in this instance, was playing with metaphor, right? Okay. Kinds of things. So I have a similar, as Soji did, a similar love for nature and natural things. And to see this, the sansuikyo basically use these things that we love so much and understand

[52:48]

and are so intimate with as a way of teaching the Dharma, teaching about form, teaching about emptiness, teaching about impermanence. You know, it was wonderful. It is wonderful. It's a really wonderful, wonderful teaching. Thank you. And Ben, would you like to unmute yourself? Sure. Thank you, everyone. And thank you, Ellen, for hosting. This is a question, I guess, for any of the three that have shared so far, but maybe especially for Walter or Raul, if they want to share. I'm always interested in hearing any sort of turning moments or moments with Sojin where there was some answer and response or some interaction that was a turning moment. I have a couple that happened for me that I'm very grateful for and a couple that I've

[53:49]

talked to other people about. And so if anyone has one to share, that would be nice. How about you? Ben, do you want to share one? I don't know if, and I was going to add this during my question or comment, if you don't want to share something like this, that's totally fine. I don't know if I have a useful way of sharing right now, but I will think about that. Okay. Well, I have one. Shall I go? Yeah. So once when I was serving, I was serving Sojin's side. So I'm walking down and he said something and I couldn't hear it. And anyway, he had basically shouted eventually the whole group for Oreoke.

[54:53]

And he said, don't walk on your heels. And what he was getting at was the harmony part of treat this as a sacred kind of thing we're doing here. Don't just clomp down on your heels and make so much noise. It's disruptive. I never thought of that. Ellen, I would speak. Sure. Actually, it's an interesting question, Ben. It's good to see you. And just when you were saying it, I began thinking about it. And the first thing that came into my mind was not any moment, but rather something that he would say about teaching, which was that he said, and I think he might have been quoting Suzuki Roshi or perhaps some Chinese ancestor. I'm not sure. He said, when you walk in the fog, you don't sense getting wet.

[55:54]

But when you get home, you're soaking wet. And for me, that's a little bit like my relationship with Sojin. I can't spot a particular moment when he may dump a bucket of water on me. But I do. But walking with him, walking in the fog and slowly absorbing that water is more like what I would say my teaching experience with Sojin was like. And I'm going to call on Mary Janee. I think it would be nice maybe to end with your poem. Does that sound good to you? That's fine. Thank you, Ellen. OK, Mary. This is directed at Jake. There's a wonderful story, Jake, that you told. It's not a story, an experience that you talk about. And I wish that you would share it about when you first asked about sewing a rock suit.

[57:00]

And what strikes me about it is that it demonstrates how seriously he took it. There wasn't something to be done lightly like, oh, I put in two years or I really want to or something like that. And so I wish you would tell that story. OK, thanks, Mary. So I've been practicing at BCC for a couple of years and coming very, very early to Saturdays and Mondays and all that and doing classes. So I asked Sojin in Dokusan if I could sew a raka suit. And he said, no, because he said, you have faith in Buddha and you're interested in dharma. But he said, what's lacking is sangha. You don't do anything. You don't know people.

[58:01]

You come and you leave. I would like you, Jake, to start engaging in sangha practice, sign up for some positions and do things and talk to people. And so I took that advice. And then the next year I sewed my raka suit. That's the story. Dean, would you like to unmute yourself? OK, here I go. Um, I have one story and I don't know the depth of this story. But it meant a lot to me. I'm not exactly sure why. I love Sojin's sense of humor. I kind of like anybody who has a pretty simple sense of humor that can segue into something really interesting. But we were working on this project one time.

[59:02]

And Ross and I had gone up to the, um, you know, I seemed, am I still online? Yeah. Yeah. OK, because I see me two or three times on the screen. Anyway, so Ross and I had gone up to the tool lending library at the at the street to look for some things. And while we're standing up there, we saw this thing on the counter that looked like a tape measure. But when you open it up, there's no numbers on it. It's just like a metal tape measure. But when you pull it out, it's just blank, except there's one little part and there's a little mark that someone put and it said about an inch and then a little bit further, about a foot. So anyway, we're out there measuring these stones and seeing, I think it was for the, when you're looking at the Zindo off to the left, those big, big stones that are on the patio there. And so I just was just so excited about this idea. So we were all going to move these stones and he was going to come out and direct.

[60:03]

He said, no, no, go ahead and do it. I said, no, no, no. We need you. We need you to make sure we get these stones where they're supposed to be. He said, OK. So he comes out and I handled this thing that looks like a tape measure and it's not. So I hand it to him and he said, oh, it'll fit. And I said, well, you know, we don't want to get this thing up and have to move it and then it doesn't. So he takes this tape measure thing and he walks over to the doorway or the stone or the gate. He pulls it out and he stretches it out so far and he says, well, I think it'll about fit. And that was it. He just kind of turned around. And to me, everything about that was perfect because it was so simple and it was so just what right is in your right, right was in front of him. And I have no idea. But that was a lot of years ago. That could have been somewhere 15, 16 years ago. But I really remember that. And I love that. I shared it with Ross. I love that.

[61:03]

I shared it with about 15. Yeah, it was about 15. Yeah. Anyway, it was really, really a delightful little thing that somehow to me embodied. Kind of everything he was to me. So anyway, thanks for letting me talk about that. It makes me very happy to just think about that whole thing. So thank you anyway. Thank you. It's a good story. Thank you, Ellen. Yeah. One thing I didn't mention that I just very briefly, you know, when we had the 50th celebration for BCC, it was ostensibly about BCC, but it was really a celebration of Sojin's life. And that was, oh, such a remarkable evening, if anyone was there. And he just loved it. You know, he didn't like big events often. But this one wasn't about him.

[62:07]

And yet it was about him. And so I think he could enjoy it more. But that was a real capstone, I think. That's great. I remember that. Raghav, would you like to unmute yourself? Thank you, Ellen. So I wanted to ask a question to Rahul. And if it's not too personal, Rahul, it's good to see you. I saw you for a second and now, oh, there you are. Hi, good to see you. I haven't seen you in a long time. So you touched upon, like, that there was tension between you and Sojin regarding your work. And I think I know what you're kind of touching upon, you know, doing one thing fully, maybe. So I just wanted to get, if you want to go into it, like, what you got out of it from him?

[63:11]

And did he help guide you in a way? Yeah, I mean, I think that the, you know, Sojin was very intuitive. And he wasn't too keen with the intellect. And so he was kind of, and I have a kind of intellectual, I'm also very emotional, but I have an intellectual inclination. And so that was a kind of an edge between the two of us a little bit. He was often critical of that. And I think the way I took it, I mean, I wasn't going to about to renounce the intellect. And maybe he wanted me to do that. But given where I come from, and the culture I was raised, and I couldn't do that, because I

[64:21]

just enjoyed studying a lot. And, but, you know, sometimes I thought he was a little, well, no, I don't want to get into the issues, actually, I don't. Because I just took from him not to get attached to the intellect with your ego, you know, that's really the basic thing that I thought that he was right in insisting on that. And so I gave him the benefit of the doubt. But it wasn't always easy. And now I, that's not so much of an issue anymore, because I feel like I'm not so, I feel more like I can be myself and don't have to be closeted in different ways. And just, you know, express and share, you know, who I am, and what I have to offer.

[65:24]

Thank you. Okay, we just have a few more minutes. But actually, somebody has put in the chat, would you each, I think, tell a turning moment that you experienced in your relationship with Mel? Yes. Raul, will you share a turning moment? You know, I didn't think about, I'm sure there are many. The only one that came up was one early on in Doku-san with him. The, you know, came in, we sat. And then I looked at him. And he looked like, like a mummy.

[66:31]

And the mummy started, his face started contorting, you know, all these different, like, demonic faces, you know. And it was very intense. And so I wasn't sure what was going on. And so he asked me, well, is it me? Or is it you? Are you seeing something in me? Or are you seeing in me something in you? And, and I was just left with that question. I told him, I took responsibility for it, because my experience. I said, well, maybe it's, you know, I'm, I'm seeing my demons in your face. And your, your face is, you know,

[67:35]

not a, it's hard to say. I can't really express it exactly. But that was a very poignant moment between us. Yeah, thank you. You're welcome. Okay, maybe we will end tonight with a poem that J'Nai has offered to share with us. Will somebody spotlight J'Nai and she can unmute herself? I'm unmuted. Okay, not quite spotlight, but. Oh, hi. Okay. Hi. So really, just a little, a little brief backlighting, I guess. So 47 years ago, a friend brought me to the dawn sitting at Dwight Way and Mel and everything

[68:45]

began. Five years sitting at Green Gulch, five years practicing with him at Berkeley Zen Center. Then I moved to LA and Zen Center San Diego. So 37 years away, visiting him when I returned. And I, I feel a profound heart and mind flow with him still. So I want to share with you and with Sojin, since I never was able to do that with him when he was here with us, the poem that I wrote about him in 2017. And it almost feels channeled in a way. It's about his extraordinary, ordinary manner of teaching, though it's not about Berkeley Zen Center. So imagine for the world of the poem, Sojin as the long-term habit of a very different, distant Zen monastery.

[69:46]

And I want to thank you, Walter, for Mountains and Rivers, and Jake and Dean for talking about stones. And I also want to disappear and have you just see Sojin. For Sojin Mel Weitzman-Roshi, the Dharma Master, nearly 90, speaks. The young monks stifle their discontent. After all these years, they seek teachings with a different twist, novel fables, fresh commentary. His words, they think, have lost their surprise. The Dharma Master speaks steadily in his stern and gentle voice.

[70:49]

He speaks the words of stones. I'm sorry. He speaks the words of water trickling down a mountainside to pool in a slowly rising stream. The words of stones that have sat through brute weather, wild and tender seasons, black nights with no stars, the crucible of fire. Infinitely patient, he speaks these words time and time again to the young monks who, dreaming of newness, still have not listened. Thank you. Thank you. It's beautiful. So thank you also, Raul and Walter and Jake and everyone who is here tonight, and

[71:54]

particularly also Yoni, who served as our excellent tech host again. And we don't know if there is going to be more of these evenings or not. Oh, there are. OK. Two more. And I suspect there will be every other Thursday, but I could be wrong. And so I think we'll say good night. And if you want to unmute yourself. Thank you for hosting. Let me just say something about the next one. The next one that we're going to have is on the 25th of February. And officially, Sojourner Roshi's 49 day memorial ceremony would take place on the 24th. So we will have one on. We'll have a small ceremony on the morning of the 24th. We'll also have a ceremony on the evening as the first presentation on the 25th so that a lot of people can participate. So it's an important, dharmically, it's an important turning.

[73:01]

And so we invite you to be there. And then we have another one scheduled for the 11th of March. So thank you. And thanks to all the presenters and to Ellen for doing a wonderful job. Okay. And Janay, somebody has asked if you would send out your poem to the community. I would be so happy to. Thank you so much. Great.

[73:27]

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