I know we all have issues, you know, the world's upside down and it's getting scarier. And we can see all of the issues coming ahead and bumping into each other. And it's an exciting time. And so I would like you to share with me whatever's on your mind that you would like to, of course, we say some questions are not Zen questions and other questions are, but it's the spirit in which we ask our question, or whatever, and somewhat the content. But if the spirit is right, the content will be right. So please, I'm not sure, I can't remember who's on the list today, so you'll have to do something about that.

[01:08]

Okay. I've unspotted you, Surgeon, so you see the speaker, and Byka Andrea Heapton is up first. Who? Byka. Oh, okay. Byka? Where are you? Remember to unmute yourself, Micah. Thank you. Now I don't see Sojin, I see you, Gary. I could ask Gary a question. Go ahead. You may show yours. Oh, there we go. Okay, we're good now. Sojin Roshi. Okay, nice to meet you. Nice to see you too.

[02:12]

What is awakening? Awakening is what? What is what? What is what? Yes. Can I meet you in what? Well, what is it? It feels warm. Maybe kind of green. Vibrating. Feels loving. And feels like a place of refuge. Am I just making it up? Well, we're making it up as we go along. If we're not making it up as we go along, we just die.

[03:14]

So how can I get my friends to make up putting extra effort into voting this year? Oh, every day. Don't forget to vote. Don't say who to vote for. Yeah, no. Yeah, just say. Don't forget to vote. Whoever you vote for, do it. Anything you want to be remembered, mostly, is having it reiterated over and over and over. Yeah. Yes. Repetition is our practice. OK. I always hear you saying, effort. Yes, effort. Yeah. Yes, because, yeah, go ahead. Oh, just, it's not a passive thing.

[04:19]

Effort is needed. Yes. Yeah. You know, people think that our practice of sitting on the cushion is just to relax. That's one aspect, but there's another aspect, and the other aspect is effort. But when people think about meditation, they think of relaxing. Relaxing without effort is simply goofing off on the cushion. So effort is meeting halfway. Well, because I practiced with you at the Berkeley Zen Center, I never think about relaxing on my cushion without it. But you asked the question. So thank you for that. So Genoshi, I'll catch up with you soon. OK. It's wonderful to see you.

[05:23]

OK, you too. Take care. We have Ben Clausen on deck. Ben? Ben, there you are. Sojin. I think it was two weeks ago tonight that Sue Osher asked you a question and you said something like, don't worry, you can't lose me. It was in relation to Yes, will I die or something like that? Something like that. Death or retirement or both or something. And I've also heard it said, I think, that what isn't born cannot die. Right. And so I wanted to ask you, who are you really? That's what I keep asking myself.

[06:25]

But I don't. That's a good question. It's really a good question. But I don't ask myself that because it's an endless answer. So I'm asking it all the time without expecting an answer. I don't want an answer. I just want to keep asking the question. Because we should bring ourself up to ourselves. And Sojin Roshi, in this time when we can't meet in person, the sangha and with teachers, I think about the experience I've had learning to practice with people together in our activity, and I know

[07:35]

I think you had mentioned at a Dharma talk at San Francisco Zen Center a few weeks ago, and also I had read somewhere in Dogen about the importance of studying with the teacher. Yes. And I would say maybe also studying with the Sangha. So how do we still have that intimate transmission when we cannot be face-to-face? How face-to-face can we be? To me, this is face-to-face. And in some way, you know, more face-to-face than face-to-face. I don't miss anything. You know, I can't say that I don't ever miss anything, but basically, I don't miss anything. I'm practicing at home. You know, everything is practice. If everything is practice, you come in and out of relationship with people that you practice with, and then you come into relationship with them.

[08:41]

And I think that's good. You know, to appreciate what we have is great. Supposing this was happening without Zoom, it would be really hard. So I appreciate Zoom. I really like it. And I can communicate with anybody just the same way that I always do. And it's just a little different, you know, there's certain things that you don't, but by and large, I appreciate it. And I think it's really great that we have this. And so I think the way to practice is to appreciate everything that we have. Oh, sorry, neighbor dogs barking. Okay, I like to hear dogs barking. Well, thank you, Sojin. I will just say there is one thing I miss at least a bit, which is maybe seeing you in the shadows out of the corner of my eye as I face the wall as you go make an offering at Suzuki Roshi's picture in the morning.

[09:46]

I miss that too. Thank you, Sojin. You're welcome. Karen Dakotis is next. Hi, Sojin Roshi. Hi. It's so good to see you, except right now I just see Gary, but it's good to see Gary, too. Well, Gary's here. There you are. Yes. You know, it's hard to bring one's suffering when we see this gorgeous, jolly face in front of us. And I'm so happy to be here. My question, recently a teacher said something about the practice of kindness. He said, it's not a moral thing, like we should be kind. Kindness is like adding space and warmth to what's happening. Yeah, I like this.

[10:47]

So my question is, where is the kindness? And when I see places where it seems like there's no kindness in this heartbreak of a time, where is the kindness? sometimes it's kind to be angry. Yes. So kindness is what you make of it. You know, compassion looks like kindness, but it is, but sometimes it's really harsh. Sometimes it's compassionate to spank your child. You wouldn't do that. Well, no, but I know what you mean. It's sort of like Manjushri's sword. Yes. Trunkpa warned us against idiot compassion. Yes. So it's compassionate to tell somebody to be quiet.

[11:47]

Yes. Makes me too much racket. True, but there's so much unkindness going around. It's very heartbreaking and I don't know how to, other than in my own heart and mind, add this space and warmth. Does that do any good? Just prayer? Because when you have it in yourself, you have something to share. When you give into despair, you have nothing to share. when you let go of that and find your own space, then you have something to share. So the thing is not to let yourself get caught by despair or by other people's unhappiness or whatever.

[12:57]

Cultivate your own practice, cultivate your own kindness, and then you have something to give to people. But if you don't have anything, which is called desperate, despair, then you don't have anything to give. And you just sink. You don't want to sink. That would not be happy. That would make all the people around you unhappy and make them work harder. Yes, I don't want to make people work harder on my behalf. And it also would not be kind. No, it would not. It's very unkind to be desperate. Yes. It's quite selfish. I know what you mean. Yes. I don't feel despair, but I feel heartbroken and concerned. Yeah. Well, see, I never expected more. You think so little of us. Well, but in some ways you expect quite a lot, which is good because it makes me put my effort forth.

[14:10]

That's the other side. Yes. Keep the bar up. That's what it's like with you. There's always the other side. There's always the other side. It's so refreshing. Yes. Good to see you. Good to see you. Good to be here. Yeah. We have Simba. Unmute. Unleash yourself. Good evening. Nice to see you. Yeah, you too. For most of my life, I haven't eaten the right food for my physical body. Yes, yes. And that has annoyed my physical body as well as my spiritual and also mental spirit. So now just much more recently, I'm actually in the middle of a 40 day fast.

[15:15]

Oh really? How many days have you been there? I'm 19. Really? You look great. And I feel okay. I feel great. I feel really, I feel great. And, um, And my goal or my intent has been to cleanse my body, but also continue to move in the right direction towards eating the right foods and eating the right way. With that being said, my challenge is I'm not really aware or sure what I should be eating or what the right food is. So could you share some guidance around how, what to eat or how to find the right... Great question. Great question. Yeah. I think 40 days, that's a long time. But as long as you know what you're doing, that's good.

[16:16]

Awesome. So, you know, diets change. Every 10 years, they're overturned. And what they say, you shouldn't eat, they say, you should eat. And then 10 years later, they say, what you shouldn't eat, you should, what you're eating, you shouldn't eat. And so it all keeps turning over, right? And so who's right and who's wrong? So the rule of thumb is don't eat too much of anything. Leave the table a little bit hungry. That's the basis. That is the business. And your system will tell you what to eat, but often it fools you and says, I want more ice cream or something like that. So figure out what are the most wholesome things.

[17:24]

So you want a balance. If you eat too much of this, then eat a little bit of that. And if you eat too much of that, eat a little bit of this so that your meals are balanced. That's the main thing. There's, you know, I don't know if you know about Weight Watchers. Weight Watchers is a system of diet, but it doesn't prescribe any particular food. It just is a way of measuring this with that so that your system's always balanced. It's simply about how you balance the things you eat so that you always feel comfortable. And you assume the right weight for your size, your tallness, and your physique and whatever, right? So that's, I can't tell you what to eat. All I can say is don't eat too much of anything. and balance the things that you eat.

[18:28]

And I can give you a chart that shows you how to do that. That would be really helpful. Okay. Yes. If I can follow up on that, my challenge is for most of my life, I grew up hearing that meat is good and eggs and milk, drink a glass of milk. So I actually got here. The reason I'm asking this question is as I was sitting, I haven't been able to breathe well as well as hear and also swallow well for the last, let's say maybe five, 10 years because I have a lot of mucus in my system. Right. And, and, [...] and because of that, it affects my, uh, my hearing and also my breathing as well. So, and I think It's most likely because of the diet that I've had in terms of meat and milk and eggs and all those things that are producing mucous in my body.

[19:37]

So my challenge is finding the right resources or the right troops. The right balance. The right balance. The right balance. Little meat, you know, but only in, there's nothing that's except if you're a vegetarian or a vegan or something like that, which I'm not talking about. I'm just talking about your eating habits. So just find about a little bit of this. If you eat too much of this, this happens. If you eat too much of that, that happens. So how to make a balance. So I would like to talk to you further, and maybe with a couple other people, to get you going on the right path after your fast. Are you doing this by yourself? I mean, is anybody else involved? One of my roommates, he's doing seven days and I'm doing the pass by myself for 40 days. Well, be careful. Don't get yourself into a spot.

[20:45]

There's a certain point where there's a weakness after a certain length of time. And you don't want to get into a weakness where you're falling off. You want to stay healthy. And the length of time, you've been doing pretty good. But watch out for any signs of weakness. And don't be too idealistic. If you say, well, this not so good now, quit. Rather than just kind of, you know, charged through because you said you wanted to do 40 days. I don't know if 40 days is right or wrong, but I'm just saying, when you feel it necessary, stop. But, you know, bless your journey. Thank you, Sergeant.

[21:46]

Okay. And we'll talk about it after you, when you're ready. Okay. Okay, thank you. We have Ross Blum. Good evening, Sojourn Roshi. Good evening, Ross. The sixth ancestor says you should save many beings in your own mind. Okay. There's something about your volume. Oh. Can you hear me now? Yeah, I can hear you, but it can fade. Oh, um, the six ancestors said to save the many beings in your mind, the beings of anger, beings of lust, beings of jealousy and so forth. Um, there's the, uh, so-called beings outside of our mind that people want to save. We encounter people and, um,

[22:48]

there's a desire that wells up that I want to help this person somehow. I wonder which person I should help. Help thyself because thyself includes all the other persons. Will they see that? Who's they? those people that I perceive to be outside of myself. How can you help people? Sometimes I feel I can't. Yeah. Accept it. Accept it. I can't help all those people. That's why I have the wish to help all people. And the one person before me that I cannot help, the feeling inside of impotence, and helplessness, what do I do with that? More practice.

[23:55]

Okay, thank you. Thank you for your honesty and straightforwardness and leaving me to find out for myself. Yes. I really appreciate that. You're welcome. Okay, we have Bud. Bud, please answer or ask. I don't have any answers. Good evening, Sargent. Good evening. Hi. Can you hear me all right? I can. Okay, I'm trying a new thing here. You're doing well. It's fine. Okay, right. A while back, you took a question from somebody who is new to reading Dogen. and was fascinated by fascicle uji. And what I find very interesting is how Dogen's writing can pull us in and be so fascinating, even when we don't understand what he's saying often.

[24:59]

At least that's been my experience, and maybe other people too. Dogen apparently put a lot of emphasis on the fascicle uji, And I'm wondering if you could say that understanding Uji is key to understanding Dogen's understanding of practice and realization. Well, everything that Dogen writes or says is key to his understanding. Okay. His key to his understanding is life is sufferings, unsatisfactory, or whatever you want to call it, and the other three. It's just basic Buddhism. He's only talking about basic Buddhism. He's not even talking about Zen.

[25:59]

It's just the basic Dharma is what he's talking about. And it's a commentary on Buddhism. It's commentary on commentary, but it's the commentary on the Four Noble Truths and how to deal with suffering. And dealing with suffering by understanding why we cause it, why we create it. That's what he's talking about. Somehow, when I'm reading Dogen, though, it seems that when he's talking about being time and is very similar to his conception of practice realization, his approach strikes me as being totally unique. And I don't see the parallel in other teachers.

[27:02]

Well, that's what makes Dogen Dogen. Because Dogen is unique in his commentary on Buddhism. He sees very deeply into what the Dharma is. And it's a commentary, it's really a commentary on Shakyamuni, and it's a commentary on the ancestors. Everything you read in Dogen, every fancicle has, he talks about the ancestors. He's always talking about the ancestors and what their contributions are. That's the whole of his thing, if you think about it. See, so-and-so says, and so-and-so says, it's all one big koan, divided into viewpoints. Typically, the first paragraph expresses what he wants to say.

[28:04]

And the rest is all commentary on it. That's a good approach for dealing with Dogen, is to understand the first paragraph. Then the rest, he takes each sentence and talks about that, and on and on. So it's all a commentary. And his way of understanding it, which is very deep, and what makes his him so unique is he's always talking from the point of view of non-duality. And that's what makes it so hard to understand, because we don't, you know, we're not oriented that way. The more we are oriented to understanding of non-duality, it's really hard to understand. The closer we get to what Tolkien's talking about, sometimes he uses duality, but the duality is based on non-duality. Okay, I think that's something to work on.

[29:14]

It's so good to see you. You too, especially how to read it using the first paragraph to realize that's what he's talking about and the rest is commentary. Just keep going back to line by line, basically. Okay, good to see you. Thank you. Your question. Tom Painter. Good evening, Sojin Roshi. Hi, Don. Hi. Can you hear me okay? I can. Okay. Good. First, I'd like to, early in the pandemic, you said, don't ask, when is this going to end? That's just me thinking. And that's been really helpful to me because I've been, well, I still ask all the time, when is it going to end? But I'm asking myself that question in a different kind of way. less desperate, not reading these articles about vaccines or cures.

[30:17]

And I had a dream the other night where a bunch of us dropped acid and I guess it was a bad trip. When is it going to start and when is it going to end? And then someone said, where's Sochin Roshi? We need to ask him. But I don't remember how it ended. It's a good idea though. I agree with it. Yeah. Yeah. The way I think about it is, What do I do now? I don't think about when's it gonna end, when did it start, blah, blah, blah. What do I do now? This moment. What do I do now? What if that is just waiting? There's no waiting. There's not waiting for anything. Absolutely no waiting for anything. It's just, what now? What? Somebody asked a question about what? Oh, it was Baika. What's what? What is what? This is it. I spend a lot of my time wondering, when is this going to start?

[31:20]

And when is this going to end? I like that better. When is it going to start? Yeah, you said once, or maybe it was Hozon, people spend so much time asking, what happens after you die? But then nobody asks, what happens before you're born? That's given me a lot of food for thought in the past year. Yes. So anyway, thanks for inhabiting my dreams and teaching me my dreams. Yes, that's great. I got the key. Open the door. There he is, lying down there. Thank you. But yes, when does it start and when does it end? That's the major question. When does it start and when does it end? We think it starts when we come out of our mother's womb, but it started long before that. When? Well, when is an endless question.

[32:23]

And what happens when it's over, right? So, there's no beginning or end. There's no final beginning. There's no inceptive beginning, and there's no final ending. Everything just is continuing and transforming endlessly. That's my understanding. Is that good news or bad news? That's the news. Okay, I guess I'll keep reading the newspapers. You know, what's happening now? What do I do now with what I'm involved with? What do I do now? So it's like, you know, the classic Buddhist experience, like when the arrow is shot into your chest, you know, and so you do all you can to pull it out,

[33:40]

but you don't say, where'd that come from? How come he did that? That may occur to us, but that doesn't help. What helps is pulling the thing out. So, you know, enjoy yourself while you're here. That makes people happy. Thank you. You're welcome. Joel, you're next. Sojin Roshi. Hi, Joel. Hi, good to see you. Yeah. Now let's sit up a little bit because I see your chin, you know, down at the bottom. That's better. That's good. Okay, great. So I wanted to ask you about something that happened recently, which was I had occasion to think about what was the koan of my life.

[34:51]

It was this thing with Santa Barbara. There was gonna be, anyway. And so I thought and thought, and I just felt, I don't know. I mean, Like, I just don't know. I mean, I can come up with all sorts of problems with which I've bored you forever, you know, sending music, but that's not a con. I mean, I just do the best I can. What's the con? Best I can do. The con is what is the question? What is it? Yes, ultimately. But, um, uh, I do what I can. Yes. When I can is the best I can. And I do. All you can do is the best you can. And right now. Right. Yeah.

[35:53]

Yeah, that that's sort of that sort of eliminates. I mean, yeah, I mean, that is... It eliminates all the garbage. Yeah, right, exactly. So it eliminates all the garbage and just do what you can right now. And that's the koan of your life, you know. That's it. That's it. There it is. Genjo Koan. What's that? Genjo Koan. Genjo Koan. Koan. Genjo Koan. That's our practice. That's right. Somehow you're offline. Exactly. The computer has been very crazy. We're at this hotel and the internet connection is very bad. So I'm very grateful that we can have this. It's great, yes. It is great. So yeah, we're exercising our Koan right now. Yeah, the best we can. Yes.

[36:54]

Moment by moment, best we can. Moment by moment, we can. That's it. Do your best. Yeah. It's not even Zen, it's just, you know. It's common sense. It's common sense, yeah. And that's what Zen is, really, common sense. Right. Uncommon common sense. Yeah. Well, common sense purged of all the bullshit. Yeah, and so, oh, this is so great. Yeah, so, yeah, that, just. Just. You know, just keep going back to your center all the time. Don't stray from your center. And then you will be, actualizing the koan all the time. Don't stray from your center. Don't get strung out on trying to figure everything out, because that takes you away from your center.

[38:09]

And it makes the thing you're thinking about the center. Yeah, right. It makes manas the center. It's a substitute for the center. Yes. And so, how do I, can I work with always coming back to the center? Breathing is going on all the time. Don't stop. I'll try not to. Yeah, stop breathing. That's your center. If you breathe in from your center, But you should practice breathing all the way down as far as you can go. All the time.

[39:11]

It's like your rhythm, your natural rhythm. So be in touch with your natural rhythm, no matter what other rhythms you are dealing with. So your natural breathing rhythm is always underneath it. All right, so we've talked about this one time. I asked you in Tok San, are you thinking of your breathing? And you said, yes. Yes. I mean, not thinking of it, aware of it. Aware of it, yes. With it. Always. Exactly. Always. Right, and so that, is how you can be so totally with us. Yes. Yeah. And at ease. Yes. Yes. And centered. Centered. And calm.

[40:14]

My mind is calm. Mind is calm. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Precisely. That's how we do it. Well, you know all this, but you have to be reminded all the time. That's right. My job is to keep reminding you. Oh, do it, man. Just do your job. But you have to take your own responsibility. Absolutely. I don't take that responsibility. I just, you know, walk past and say, breathe. It's up to you because I can't do it for you. Well, of course not. So I can tell myself, breathe. Yes, all the time. All the time. All the time. Breathe. Breathe. That's what counting is. Of course it is.

[41:15]

One. On the out breath. Two. It's not counting sheep. Three. Because your whole body mind is the breath. Four. up to 10, and then you start again with one. But if you get to 100, just start again with one, without berating yourself. That's just something extra. Yeah, I just put a lot of extra things in there, extra digits. Exactly. Well, have a good time in your hotel room. Oh, it's awesome. You would love it. Yeah. We can play Bach. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Thank you so much. Okay. Uh, Raghav, you have a question? Oh yeah. Oh my God.

[42:16]

Hi. Your chin is missing. I'll hold this. That's better. I like to see your neck. No, you go down. You go up. That's it. I'm holding it, so I'll try to hold it just this way. Oh, I see. Oh, I'm sorry. That's OK. It's not very long. You're looking very handsome today. Oh, thank you. You too. I think you just answered what I was running through my head. But let me try to... Ask it anyway. Yeah. You might get a different answer. Yeah. So we stay with our center when things are great, when things are not so great.

[43:17]

And then We trust that, right? So we just stay with trusting that. Trusting what? Trusting with centering. Yes. Instead of trying to, when things don't go well, instead of thrashing around and causing more problems for ourselves and maybe others. Yes. And when things are great, not forgetting what the central point is. Yes, that's right. Not getting caught up in either side. And just by that trust, our relationship with others comes naturally from that rather than

[44:24]

taking on an idea of saying, I'm going to help others. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Let me just say something about Zazen. When we did Zazen, Zazen is very horizontal, very even, right? But things happen. We think this, and we feel that, and our legs hurt, There are all kinds of things that happen, but zazen itself just absorbs it all. So that's the baseline in zazen. And all the rest of it is either fantasy or wishing it was, wishing it's not, all those things. And then when we meet circumstances after we stand up, it stills us in, right?

[45:35]

So it helps us in relationships because if we have that attitude, we're just open to whatever. But no matter how difficult The circumstances are we don't lose ourselves because we're always one with our breath, one with not freedom from whatever is happening while we're engaged in what's happening. It doesn't mean ignoring what's happening, but it means being free within it, having our freedom within it. So that's kind of my response. I think you know this, but it has to be reiterated over and over. And one question that comes to my mind is, there is this natural response of whatever we do, we either hurt ourselves or hurt others, or we naturally help others.

[46:52]

What I keep thinking of is, so why did, I'm not sure if Buddha said, I'm going to go out and teach, but I wonder about it. So is there, you know, even in your life, you've said you did this because Suzuki Roshi asked you to. Yes, he asked me to be ordained. Ordained. And he also asked you to be the cat taker. Did he ask you to be the cat taker of Berkeley? Yes, he did. Yes. And you just... I just said, okay. Yeah. The reason he asked me is because he knew I would do that. Before I was ordained, I used to wear the same sweater every day.

[47:56]

One day he came up and felt my sweater and he said, this is your robe. So that kind of indication that he understood my mind better than me. So that was good for you and that was easy for you. It was easy because I was at a place where that's all I wanted to do. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't have any thinking like, Oh, maybe I want to do this or I have this responsibility or that responsibility. That wasn't present. It was just perfect timing. I was totally free without knowing it. Yeah. And what I think about is, should we each let that naturally develop?

[48:59]

And that is kind of like same as trusting in your center. Yes. Yeah. We should naturally let it, but the only way we can do that is to dedicate ourselves. So, you know, we say we get to practice through our pores and the only way you can do that is keep running. You know, your pores are open. You keep, you just do it every day. And then at some point, it all chills. But we don't know what that point is. So instead of saying, is it time for me to teach? I would say, instead of that, is it time for me to study? Yeah, so we don't ask for anything. We just keep studying and practicing, and that's it.

[50:01]

And then at some point, everything comes together, and someone says, maybe you could say something to people. Because it has to be our own. We can talk about a book or teaching or something like that, but to be a teacher, we have to communicate we absorb from, you know, the dharma, and then we have to digest it so that when it comes out, it's our dharma. We back it up with our life. Everything we say about dharma, we have to back up with our life. So if we just say something wrong, somebody can cut our head off. And if it's, if it's still the right thing, that's still okay.

[51:08]

I miss you. I miss you. I do. So do I, you know, in terms of our Friday evening talks and yeah, Saturday talks and Just sit by the pool. Yes. Thanks, Susan. Have a good evening. You too. We have a few more minutes. If somebody wants to ask a question. Sue. Sue. Sue? Yeah, remember at the beginning? She started to ask a question. Susan Marvin, you mean? I think it was Sue Osher. Oh, no, it wasn't Sue, it was Liz, Lynn. Lynn, do you want to ask a question? Okay. I think it was Lynn. Hi, there it was. I didn't realize we hadn't all started.

[52:11]

Well, I don't think so at this moment. It's very powerful, everything that's been said. Unabsorbing. Okay. Thank you so much. Okay. You're welcome. So good to see you. Yeah. Anyone else? They could raise their electronic hand or just, I'll try and find you in the gallery with your hand up. Follow-ups are welcome too. Oh, we got Rihanna. Rihanna, unmute yourself. Hey, Sojin. Hey. Nice to see you. You too. I feel afraid to ask this question. Oh, good. But it just showed up, so I'm going to ask it.

[53:15]

You just said that, referring to Suzuki, he knew your mind better than you. So I've had the chance to practice alongside you for a few years now. Do you know my mind better than me? I'm not Suzuki. No, you're Sojourner Oshii. I don't know if I do or not. I know something about your mind. Can you tell me about it? I think everyone knows something about everyone else's mind that they're not aware of. I think that's true. You know things about my mind that I'm not aware of and so forth. I know that you want to practice our practice, Sazen, a lot. And you also feel that physically it's too difficult.

[54:21]

So, but I would say there are ways to do that. That, you know, no matter how you practice, some things are difficult physically, some things are difficult emotionally, and some things are difficult mentally. And they can be barriers, each one, or all three, or two. And I think that you may be kind of a little bit struggling with how to deal with that. That would be my follow-up question is when that barrier presents itself as insurmountable, what does one do? It's insurmountable. You know, in order to keep practicing for a long time, Everyone that does that comes up against the insurmountable. And then we just walk through it.

[55:28]

Because everything changes. It looks insurmountable, but it may be, I'm not saying it's absolutely insurmountable, but most often it's insurmountable. It depends a lot on your intention. Well, and I'm hearing you say, I mean, insurmountable is just as much of a delusion as something being surmountable. It's just another hill. Some hills are really steep. So, That's, for me, that's a really important part of our practice, is that we come to, you know, it's like a, it's kind of like a medieval journey, you know.

[56:41]

You meet dragons and possible, you know, big gaps. You know, how do you get around them, and how do you get over the mountain, and how do you cross the river? It's like that. You come to these, like, really insurmountable barriers, but they're all surmountable. You have to believe that I can do this. It's surmountable. So that's what I have to say about it. I just have to kind of cure yourself. without hurting yourself. But sometimes, you have to hurt yourself. Life is not so easy, you know? And this path is difficult. You said when we were talking about my research for Leslie James about being willing to die for this path. Yes, I did say that.

[57:43]

Right. So, yes. It's do or die, but it's really do and die. So that's what you can expect. It's the past that kills you, but it also brings you to life. Great. Thank you. You're welcome. Chris Evans? Oh, thank you. Sojin Roshi, can you hear me? I can hear you very well. You've got a lot of plants around there. I like the oxygen. We are fortunate that we read about and sometimes even discuss or study Dogen. But I'm also curious about one of Dogen's teacher, Rujing.

[58:45]

a dharma that is associated with rujing that we should know that's not perhaps as told as often. Please share something about rujing and its dharma. Yeah, you know, rujing was a very obscure habit. And Dogen kind of upped him up, you know, pumped him up as, you know, this great guy. But research doesn't verify that. So he worked a good, you know, obviously a good, obviously he had a great relationship with Dogen and so forth. And I think what Dogen's telling is true. But whatever Rujing's dharma was is expressed by Dogen. No, so Dogen, you know, expresses what he's saying basically.

[59:52]

I'm expressing Eugene Starman. So that's, there is some, you know, you can look, research that, but I think that's what you'll find. May I have a quick follow-up? Of course. Thank you. So those of us who laugh a lot and forget a lot, what is your Dharma to us that you would like for us to remember? You don't like anything. You just cover it up. Yes, don't cover it up. You're like nothing. I'm genuinely curious with a greedy follow-up question, personal.

[60:57]

When I was about six, I sat in front of a Santa in Korea, and I thought, this guy's long beard, I think it's fake. Myself. So I yanked at it. And wow, that was not fake. And I got a taste of his anger, kind of anger that's really inappropriate for kids. Fortunately, I ran away faster than he can get up. But it also makes me wonder, although you look handsome in your beard, at one point when you took the ordination for a priest, you shaved everything off, right? I looked even handsomer. Yeah, okay, so, but aside from the distraction of your culminance, you did at some point, as a symbol of non-attachment, shave everything off, right? Yes. At what point, you know, is that a symbolism of that you have been trained enough that you sport a beard?

[62:02]

I'm just curious. Well, the reason I'm sporting a beard is because now that we're in lockdown, There's no need to shave it. So, yeah, that's all. I'm not trying to do anything. I'm just, instead of doing something, I'm not doing something, right? So my head is shaved. But actually, strictly speaking, I should shave the beard and the eyebrows and the ears. And the eyebrows, I don't know. Yeah, that's what Theravada monks do. They shave the eyebrows. Okay, now I have a favor to ask you. When we're in the same room together in Sashin, would you administer the Kiyosaku Compassion Stick to me, please? Even if I'm not tired. Whenever we get back there, I don't know whether you'd like it or not. There's a theme here. Yeah, there is. We're on.

[63:04]

Okay. Thank you. Okay. Take care. You too. Ed Herzog. Hi. Good to see you. I just have a, um, I want to bring us back a little bit to, um, uh, politics and, um, The last few days, I've been really struck by the words of our leaders and how close to fascism he is. I've read a lot about Germany and Europe and World War II and how people survived during those periods and I feel myself, I just, I notice that, you know, fear comes up and anger comes up and I wonder how will I react if,

[64:32]

some of the ideas that he is talking about actually comes to pass. And so it's, I'm not really, I don't know how I'm going to react to that, but I feel like, I mean, I'm doing a lot right now, but that to me is a whole, different ballgame. And so I'm wondering how do I, how can I find my own peace in the face of what I perceive as fascism? And how do I keep on my path in the face of these ideas? Well, this is your path.

[65:44]

It's not a different path. That's true. Yes, how do I apply, how do I stay on the path given this situation? Yes, yes. The path is constant. Yes. The situation keeps changing. Yes. It's always the constant. And the situations are the unconstant, inconstant. You never know what's going to happen next. And that's right. These things start coming to pass and you know, and you have to deal with them. But you never lose sight of the past. So that's how you do it. I can't tell you the particulars, of course, you know, we don't, if I told you the particulars, you know, wouldn't make any difference, right? So you have to figure out what you're going to do. Yes. And it's okay to get scared or whatever. You know, there's this tension in the air.

[66:46]

Right. You can't deny. And, you know, you're going to be here longer than me. I guess in my 72 years on this planet. That's not very long. And in my years of being politically aware now, I've never experienced something like this before. This is the worst, yes. Yes, this is the worst. You know, the past 40 years have been building up to this. Yes, you're right. Definitely been building. You just see it, you know, it gets more and more out there and feel it in the feelers or other. How can we actually do this? The fountainhead, you know, the guys that could actually do this take over because every country that's big enough wants to take over the world.

[67:54]

China wants to take over the world. Russia wants to take over the world. We want to take over the world. And so, The only way to do that, according to them, is through suppression. And from our point of view, the only way to do that is through love. So we have these two opposing, one is through oppression, the other is through love, and bringing everybody together as one. So that's your goal, right? Your goal is to bring, the world together as one so that we can all exist together harmoniously, which will never happen. But that's still our goal. We can't give up the goal just because it's never going to happen. That's what keeps leading us on. So we have to have a goal that's bigger than ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, you know, basically think in big terms and then you can think in smaller terms.

[68:56]

People criticize me for thinking you're big derps. But the particulars, you know, they come with how you meet them as they appear. You can't meet them until they appear. So no reason to get over-anxious. There is some anxiety, but there's no reason to get over-anxious because you don't know exactly what it is that's going to appear when. That's true. Yes. You're just ready for whatever is going to happen. You're prepared. You have an opening, right? So, this is the best time in the world since I've been, because we often think that, oh, I have to do something. Yes, yes, thank goodness we're practicing. I'm really grateful that we're practicing in this time. In fact, I'm sitting more now than I ever have before. It's very powerful and so needed, so necessary.

[70:07]

Thank you. You're welcome. Let's stay in touch. You bet. We have time for one more question if somebody has one. If not, I'll ask it. Go ahead. Okay. Last time Dean asked a really poignant question about questions, and I'm wondering if you can say something about your answers. Yes. I'll stop talking. You know, there's the question and then there's this response. I don't like to call them answers. but it's a response. And so I tell Dean, don't focus on the question so much, even though it's stupid or whatever.

[71:11]

Focus on the response from the teacher. Because what you want to hear is the dharma, right? So the question is, you know, whatever it is. But the response should be, coming from the teacher's dharma. And so that's how you get the dharma from the teacher, is listening to the response to questions. If you're not getting the dharma from listening to the, or taking in the teacher's responses, then, and it doesn't matter, There's no reason to do this, except, you know, a teacher doesn't give you necessarily what you want to hear. The teacher gives you what he thinks you should hear.

[72:13]

And we're showing ourselves, too, right? Yeah, we show ourselves, and hopefully we expose ourselves, and the teacher exposes herself. And getting the Dharma is, you know, all involved in that. That's what it's about. Not just answering people, you know, like, where do I get my teas made? Or, you know, what's for breakfast? It's not that. Although, those questions can be turned into dharma. As a matter of fact, a lot of the koans are like that. the student visits the teacher, and a new student comes to the monastery, and the teacher says, well, you've eaten your breakfast. Did you wash your bowl? That sounds like an ordinary question, but it's a loaded question.

[73:17]

It's all about what does the student really understand, and what is it that he really wants? and the teacher tells him to empty his mind, which is a bowl. Go wash your bowl. Go wash your mouth out with soap. You have to look at what's underneath what the teacher's saying as a response. You have to look underneath what the teacher's saying as a response and not just take it at face value. That's how the teacher's talking to one person, but he's addressing everybody. Thank you, sir. You're welcome. Thanks for hosting. So, Kika, you did have your hand up.

[74:21]

Did it change your mind? I was just so generosity. Why did Bodhidharma come from the blah, blah, blah? Well, because the blah, blah, blah was already at the blah, blah, blah.

[74:39]

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