I know we all have issues, you know, the world's upside down and it's getting scarier and we can see all of the issues coming ahead and bumping into each other and it's an exciting time. And so I would like you to share with me any whatever's on your mind that you would like to... Of course, you know, we say some questions are not Zen questions and other questions are, but it's the spirit in which we ask our question or whatever, and somewhat the content. But if the spirit is right, the content will be right. So please, I'm not sure, I can't remember who's on the list today, so you'll have to do something about that.

[01:09]

Okay. I unspotlighted you, surgeon, so you see the speaker, and Bika Andrea Heaton is up first. Who? Bika. Oh, okay. Bika? Where are those? Remember to unmute yourself, Bika. Thank you. Now I don't see Sojan, I see you, Gary. I could ask Gary a question. Go ahead. Oh, there we go. Okay, we're good now. Sojin Roshi. Nice to see you.

[02:10]

Nice to see you too. What is awakening? Awakening is what? What is what? What is what? Yes. Can I meet you in... Can I meet you in what? Well, what is it? It feels warm. Maybe kind of green. Vibrating. Feels loving. And feels like a place of refuge. Am I just making it up? Well, we're making it up as we go along. If we're not making it up as we go along, we just die. So how can I get my friends to make up putting extra effort into voting this year?

[03:27]

Oh, every day, I say, don't forget to vote. Don't say who to vote for. Yeah, no. Yeah, just say, don't forget to vote. Whoever you vote for, do it. And you just, everything has to be, anything you want to be remembered, mostly, is having it reiterated over and over and over. Yeah. Yes. Repetition is our practice. Okay. I always hear you saying effort. Yes, effort. Yeah. Yes, because, no, go ahead. Oh, just, it's not a passive thing. Effort is needed. Yes. People think that our practice of sitting on the question is just to relax.

[04:33]

That's one aspect. But there's another aspect, and the other aspect is effort. But when people think about meditation, they think of relaxing. Relaxing without effort is simply... goofing off on the cushion. So that brings his meeting halfway. Well, because I practiced with you at the Berkeley Zen Center, I never think about relaxing on my cushion without it. But you asked the question. So thank you for that. Thank you, Sojanoshi. I'll catch up with you soon. Okay. see you okay you too take care you have ben clausen on deck ben ben there you are hey sojin hi i think it was two weeks ago tonight that sue osher asked you a question and you said something like

[05:51]

don't worry, you can't lose me. It was in relation to... Yes, will I die or something like that? Something like that. Death or retirement or both or something. And I've also heard it said, I think, that what isn't born cannot die. Right. And so I wanted to ask you, Who are you really? That's what I keep asking myself, but I don't. That's a good question. It's really a good question, but I don't ask myself that because it's an endless, it's an endless answer. So I'm asking it all the time without expecting an answer. I don't want an answer.

[06:52]

I just want to keep asking the question. Because we should bring ourself up to ourself. And Sojin Roshi, in this time when we can't meet in person, the Sangha and with teachers, I... I think about the experience I've had learning to practice with people together in our activity. And I know, I think you had mentioned in a Dharma talk at San Francisco Zen Center a few weeks ago, and also I had read somewhere in Dogen about the importance of studying with the teacher. And I would say maybe also studying with the Sangha. So how do we...

[07:53]

How do we still have that intimate transmission when we cannot be face to face? How face to face can we be? To me, this is face to face. And in some way, you know, more face to face than face to face. I don't miss anything. You know, I can't say that I don't ever miss anything. Basically, I don't miss anything. I'm practicing at home. You know, everything is practiced. If everything is practiced, you come in and out of relationship with people that you practice with, and then you come into relationship with them. And I think that's good. You know, to appreciate what we have is great. Supposing this was happening without Zoom. It would be really hard. So I appreciate Zoom.

[08:58]

I really like it. And I can communicate with anybody just the same way that I always do, I think. And it's just a little different. You know, there's certain things that you don't. But by and large, I appreciate it. And I think it's really great that we have this. And so... I think the way to practice is to appreciate everything you have. Oh, sorry. Neighbor dogs barking. It's okay. I like to hear dogs barking. Well, thank you, Sojin. I will just say there is one thing I miss at least a bit, which is maybe seeing you in the shadows out of the corner of my eye as I face the wall as you go make an offering at Suzuki Roshi's picture in the morning. I miss that too. Thank you, Sojin. You're welcome. Karen Dakotis is next.

[10:01]

Hi, Sojin Roshi. Hi. It's so good to see you, except right now I just see Gary, but it's good to see Gary, too. Well, Gary, Gary. There you are. Yes. You know. It's hard to bring one's suffering when we see this gorgeous, jolly face in front of us. And I'm so happy to be here. My question, recently a teacher said something about the practice of kindness. He said it's not a moral thing, like we should be kind. Kindness is like adding space and warmth to what's happening. Yeah, I like this. So my question is, where is the kindness in when I see places where it seems like there's no kindness in this heartbreak of a time? Where is the kindness?

[11:02]

Sometimes it's kind to be angry. Yes. So kindness is what you make of it. You know, compassion looks like kindness. But it is. But sometimes it's really harsh. Sometimes it's compassionate to spank your child. You wouldn't do that. Well, no, but I know what you mean. It's sort of like Manjushri's sword. Yes. Trungpa warned us against idiot compassion. Yes. So it's compassionate. to tell somebody to be quiet. It makes me too much racket. True, but there's so much unkindness going around. It's very heartbreaking, and I don't know how to, other than in my own heart and mind, add this space and warmth.

[12:10]

Does that do any good? Just prayer? Because when you when you have it in yourself, you have something to share. When you give in to despair, you have nothing to share. But when you let go of that and find your own space, then you have something to share. So the thing is not to let yourself get caught by despair or by other people's unhappiness or whatever. Cultivate your own practice. Cultivate your own kindness. And then you have something to give to people. But if you don't have anything, which is called desperate despair,

[13:15]

then you don't have anything to give. And you just sink. You don't want to sink. That would not be happy. That would make all the people around you unhappy and make them work harder. Yes, I don't want to make people work harder on my behalf. And it also would not be kind. No, it would not. It's very unkind to be despairing. Yes, it's quite selfish. I know what you mean. Yes. I don't feel despair, but I feel... heartbroken and concerned. Yeah. Well, see, I never expected more. You think so little of us. Well, but in some ways you expect quite a lot, which is good because it makes me put my effort forth. That's the other side. Yes. Keep the bar up. That's what it's like with you. There's always the other side.

[14:18]

There's always the other side. Oh, it's so refreshing. Yes. Good to see you. Good to see you. Good to be here. Yeah. We have Simba. Unleash yourself. Good evening. Nice to see you. Yeah, you too. So, Jin Roshi, for most of my life, I haven't eaten the right food for my physical body. Yes, yes. And that has nourished my physical body as well as my spiritual and also mental spirit. Yeah. So... now just much more recently i'm actually in the middle of a 40 day fast oh really how many days have you been there i'm 19. really you look great and i feel okay i feel great i feel really i feel great and um and my goal or my intent has been to cleanse my body but also continue to

[15:40]

move in the right direction towards eating the right foods and eating the right way. Yes. With that being said, my challenge is I'm not really aware or sure of what I should be eating or what the right food is. Yes. So could you share some guidance around what to eat or how to find the right audience? Great question. Yeah, I think 40 days, that's a long time. But as long as you know what you're doing, that's good. So, you know, diets change. Every 10 years, they're overturned. And what they say you shouldn't eat, they say you should eat. And then 10 years later, they say what you shouldn't eat, you should, what you're eating, you shouldn't eat. And so it all keeps turning over. Right? And so who's right and who's wrong?

[16:42]

So the rule of thumb is don't eat too much of anything. Leave the table a little bit hungry. That's the basis. That is the basis. So, and you're... your system will tell you what to eat, but often it fools you and says, I want more ice cream or something like that. So figure out what are the most wholesome things. So you want a balance. If you eat too much of this, then eat a little bit of that. And if you eat too much of that, eat a little bit of this so that Your meals are balanced. That's the main thing. I don't know if you know about Weight Watchers. Weight Watchers is a system of diet, but it doesn't prescribe any particular food.

[17:51]

It just is a way of measuring this with that so that your system's always balanced. It's simply about how you balance the things you eat so that you always feel comfortable. And you assume the right weight for your size, your tallness and your physique and whatever, right? So that's, I can't tell you what to eat. All I can say is don't eat too much of anything and balance the things that you eat. And I can give you a chart to show you how to do that. That would be really helpful. Okay. Yes. If I can follow up on that, my challenge is for most of my life, I grew up hearing that meat is good and eggs and milk, drink a glass of milk.

[18:55]

So I actually got here. The reason I'm asking this question is as I was sitting, I haven't been able to breathe well as well as hear. and also swallow well for the last, let's say maybe five, 10 years, because I have a lot of mucus in my system, right? And because of that, it affects my hearing and also my breathing as well. So, and I think it's most likely because of the diet that I've had in terms of meat and... milk and eggs and all those things that are producing mucus in my body so my challenge is finding the right resources or the right truth the right balance the right little meat you know but but only in there's nothing that's except if you're a vegetarian or a vegan or something like that which i'm not talking about i'm just talking about your eating habits

[20:03]

So just find a little bit of this. If you eat too much of this, this happens. If you eat too much of that, that happens. So how to make a balance? So I would like to talk to you further and maybe with a couple other people to get you going on the right path after your fast. Are you doing this by yourself? I mean, is anybody else involved? One of my roommates, he's doing seven days. doing the past by myself, the 40 days. Be careful. Be careful. Don't get yourself into a spot. There's a certain point where there's a weakness after a certain length of time. And you don't want to get into a weakness where you're falling off. You want to stay healthy. And the length of time, you've been doing pretty good. But watch out for any science of weakness and don't be too idealistic.

[21:11]

If you say, well, it's not so good now, quit. Rather than just kind of, you know, charge through because you said you want to do 40 days. I don't know if 40 days is right or wrong, but I'm just saying. When you feel it necessary, stop. But, you know, bless your journey. Thank you, sir. Okay, and we'll talk about it after you, when you're ready. Okay. Okay, thank you. Okay. Yeah, Ross. Good evening, Sojin Moshi. Good evening, Ross. The sixth ancestor says you should save many beings in your own mind.

[22:16]

Okay, there's something about your volume. Oh, can you hear me now? Yeah, I could hear you, but it's very kind of faint. Oh, the sixth ancestor said to save the many beings in your mind. the beings of anger, beings of lust, beings of jealousy, and so forth. There's the so-called beings outside of our mind that people want to save. We encounter people, and there's a desire that wells up that I want to help this person somehow. I wonder which person I should help. Help thyself because thyself includes all the other persons. Will they see that? Who's they? Who's they? Those people that I perceive to be outside of myself.

[23:20]

How can you help people? Sometimes I feel I can't. Yeah, accept it. Accept it. I can't help all those people. That's why I have the wish to help all people. And the one person before me that I cannot help, the feeling inside of impotence and helplessness, what do I do with that? More practice. I'll continue. Thank you for your honesty and straightforwardness and leading me to find out for myself. Yes. I really appreciate that. You're welcome. We have Bud. Bud, please answer or ask. I don't have any answers.

[24:22]

Good evening, surgeon. Can you hear me all right? Okay, I'm trying a new... You're doing well. It's fine. OK, right. A while back, you took a question from somebody who is new to reading Dogen and was fascinated by Faskel Uji. And what I find very interesting is how Dogen's writing can pull us in and be so fascinating, even when we don't understand what he's saying often. At least that's been my experience. Maybe other people too. Dogen apparently put a lot of emphasis on the fascicle Uji. And I'm wondering if you could say that understanding Uji is key to understanding Dogen's understanding of practice and realization.

[25:25]

Well, everything that Dogen writes or says, is um uh key to whatever what it to his understanding okay his his key to key to his understanding is um life of sufferings unsatisfactory or whatever you want to call it and the other three it's just basic buddhism he's only talking about basic buddhism He's not even talking about Zen. He says the basic Dharma is what he's talking about. And it's a commentary on Buddhism. It's commentary on commentary, but it's the commentary on the Four Noble Truths and how to deal with suffering. And dealing with suffering by understanding

[26:27]

Why we cause it? Why we create it? That's what he's talking about. Somehow when I'm reading Togan, though, it seems that when he's talking about being time and is very similar to his conception of practice, realization that his approach strikes me as being totally unique and I don't see the parallel in other teachers. Well, that's what makes the Dogen, Dogen. Because Dogen is unique in his commentary on Buddhism. He sees very deeply into what the Dharma is. And it's a commentary, it's really a commentary on Shakyamuni And it's a commentary on the ancestors.

[27:30]

Everything you read in Dogen, every fascicle has, he talks about the ancestors. He's always talking about the ancestors and what their contributions are. That's the whole of his thing. If you think about it, see, so-and-so says, and so-and-so says, it's all one big koan. Divided into viewpoints. Typically, the first paragraph expresses what he wants to say, and the rest is all commentary on it. That's a good approach for dealing with Dogen, is to understand the first paragraph. Then the rest, he takes each sentence and talks about that, and on and on. So it's all a commentary. So, and in his way of understanding it, which is very deep.

[28:33]

And what makes him so unique is he's always talking from the point of view of non-duality. And that's what makes it so hard to understand because we don't, you know, we're not oriented that way. The more we are oriented to understanding of non-duality, it's really hard to understand. the closer we get to what Dogen's talking about. Sometimes he uses duality, but the duality is based on non-duality. Okay. I think that's something to work on. It's so good to see you. You too. Especially how to read it using the first paragraph to realize that's what he's talking about, and the rest is commentary. So just keep going back to line by line, basically. Okay. Good to see you.

[29:35]

Thank you. Your question. Tom Painter. Good evening. Hi, Tom. Hi. Can you hear me okay? I can. Okay. Good. First, I'd like to, early in the pandemic, you said, um, Don't ask, when is this going to end? And that's been really helpful to me because I've been, well, I still ask all the time, when is it going to end? But I'm asking myself that question in a different kind of way, less desperate, not reading these articles about vaccines or cures. And I had a dream the other night where a bunch of us dropped acid and I guess it was a bad trip. When is it going to start and when is it going to end? And then someone said, where's Sojin Roshi? We need to ask him. But I don't know how, I don't remember how it ended.

[30:36]

It's a good idea, though. I agree with it. Yeah. Yeah, the way I think about it is, what do I do now? I don't think about when's it going to end, when did it start, blah, blah, blah. What do I do now? This moment. What do I do now? I wonder if that is just waiting. There's no waiting. There's not waiting for anything. Absolutely no waiting for anything. It's just, what now? What? Somebody asked a question about what? Well, it was like us. What's what? What is what? This is it. I spend a lot of my time wondering when is this going to start and when is this going to end? I like that better. When is it going to start? Yeah, you said once, or maybe it was Hosanna, people spend so much time asking what happens after you die, but then nobody asks what happens before you're born.

[31:36]

That's given me a lot of food for thought in the past year. Yes. So anyway, thanks for inhabiting my dreams and teaching me my dreams. Yes, that's great. I got the key. Open the door. Yes, lying down there. Thank you. But yes, when does it start and when does it end? That's the major question. When does it start and when does it end? Because we think it starts when we come out of our mother's womb, but it started long before that. When? Well, when is an endless question. And what happens when it's over, right? So, there's no beginning or end.

[32:40]

There's no final beginning. There's no inceptive beginning, and there's no final ending. Everything just is continuing and transforming endlessly. That's my understanding. Is that good news or bad news? That's the news. Okay, I guess I'll keep reading the newspapers. What's happening now? What do I do now with what I'm involved with? What do I do now? So it's like the classic Buddhist experience, like when the arrow is shot into your chest, and so you do all you can to pull it out, but you don't say, where'd that come from?

[33:44]

How come he did that? That may occur to us, but that doesn't help. What helps is pulling the thing out. Yeah. So, you know, enjoy yourself while you're here. That makes people happy. Yeah. Thank you. You're welcome. Joel, you're next. Sojourn Roshi. Hi, Joel. Hi, good to see you. Yeah. Yeah, let's sit up a little bit because I see your chin, you know, down to bottom. That's better. That's good. Okay, great. So I wanted to ask you about something that happened recently, which was I had occasion to think about what was the koan of my life.

[34:52]

It was this thing with Santa Barbara. There was going to be, anyway. And so I thought and thought, and I just felt, I don't know. I mean, like, I just don't know. I mean, I can come up with all sorts of problems with which I'll board you forever, you know, send them music. But that's not con. I mean, I just do the best I can. I mean. What's con? What is. Best I can. The koan is what is the question? What is it? Yes, ultimately. But I do what I can. Yes. What I can is the best I can. And I do... All you can do is the best you can right now. Right. Yeah.

[35:54]

Yeah, that's... sort of that sort of eliminates. I mean, yeah, I mean, that is eliminates all the garbage. Yeah, right. Exactly. It eliminates all the garbage. And just do what you can right now. And that's the Koan of your life. You know, that's it. That's it. There it is. And we'll go on. What's that? In Joe go on. Go on. Go on. Ganjo Koan. Koan. That's our practice. That's right. Somehow you're offline. Exactly. The computer has been very crazy. We're at this hotel and the internet is very bad. So I'm very grateful that we can have this. It's great. Yes. It is great. So yeah, we're exercising our Koan right now. Yeah, the best we can. Yes.

[37:00]

Moment by moment, the best we can. Moment by moment. That's it. Do your best. It's not even zen. It's just, you know. It's common sense. It's common sense, yeah. And that's what zen is, really, common sense. Uncommon, common sense. Yeah. Well, common sense purged of all the bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so, oh, this is so great. Yeah. So, um, yeah, that just, just, you know, just keep going back. Just keep going back to your center all the time. Don't stray from your center. And then you will be, um, uh actualizing the koan all the time don't stray from your center don't get strung out on trying to figure everything out because that takes you away from your center absolutely and it makes the thing that you're thinking about the center yeah right it makes monos the center it's a substitute for the center yes

[38:25]

And so how do I, can I work with always coming back to the center? Breathe. Breathing is going on all the time. Don't stop. I'll try not to. Yeah, don't stop breathing. That's your center. If you breathe it from your center. You should practice breathing all the way down as far as you can go. All the time. It's like your rhythm, your natural rhythm. So be in touch with your natural rhythm, no matter what other rhythms you are dealing with. So your natural breathing rhythm is always underneath it.

[39:31]

Right. So we talked about this one time. I asked you in Tokusan, are you thinking of your breathing? And you said, yes. Yes. I mean, not thinking of it, aware of it. Aware of it, yes. Always. Exactly. Always. Right. And so that... Is how you can be so totally with us. Yes. Yeah. And at ease. Yes. Yes. And centered. My mind is calm. Mind is calm. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Precisely. That's how we do it. Well, you know all this, but you have to be reminded all the time. That's right. My job is to keep reminding you.

[40:37]

Oh, do it. Just do your job. But you have to take your own responsibility. Absolutely. I don't take that responsibility. I just walk past and say, breathe. It's up to you because I can't do it for you. Well, of course not. So I can tell myself, breathe. Yes, all the time. All the time. All the time. Breathe. Breathe. Well, that's what counting is. Of course it is. One. On the out breath. Two. It's not counting sheep. Three. Because your whole body and mind is the breath. up to 10. And then you start again with one. But if you get to 100, just start again with one without berating yourself.

[41:40]

That's just something extra. I just put a lot of extra things in there. Extra digits. Exactly. Well, have a good time in your hotel room. Oh, it's awesome. You would love it. Yeah. Yeah, we can play Bach. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Thank you so much. Okay. Raghav, you have a question? Oh, yeah. Oh, Raghav, hi. Your chin is missing. I'll hold this. That's better. I like to see your neck. No, you go down. You go up. That's it. I'm holding it, so I'll try to hold it just this way. Oh, I see. Oh, I'm sorry. That's okay. It's not very long. You're looking very handsome today. Oh, thank you. You too.

[42:48]

I think you just answered what I was running through in my head. But Let me try to ask it again, ask it anyway. Yeah. I get a different answer. Yeah. Um, so, so we, we stay with our center when things are great, when things are not so great. And then, We trust that, right? So we just stay with trusting that. Trusting what? Trusting with centering. Yes. Instead of trying to, when things don't go well, instead of thrashing around and causing more problems for ourselves and maybe others.

[43:53]

Yes. And... when things are great, not forgetting what the central point is. Yes, that's right. Not getting caught up in either side. And just by that trust, our relationship with others comes naturally from that rather than taking on an idea of saying, I'm going to help others. Okay. Let me just say something about Zazen. Zazen is very horizontal, very even, right? But things happen. We think this and we feel that. and our legs hurt, and then we, you know, there are all kinds of things that happen, but Sazin itself, it just absorbs it all.

[45:03]

You know, so that's the baseline in Sazin. And all the rest of it is either fantasy or wishing, or you know, wishing it was, wishing it's not, and so forth. all those things right so uh and then uh when we meet circumstances after we stand up it still doesn't right so um uh it helped that's it helps us in our in relationship because uh if we have that attitude we're just open to whatever but no matter how difficult the circumstances are, we don't lose ourselves because we're always one with our breath, one with not freedom from whatever is happening while we're engaged in what's happening.

[46:17]

It doesn't mean ignoring what's happening, but it means being free within it, having our freedom within it. So that's kind of my response. I think you know this, but it has to be reiterated over and over. And one question that comes to my mind is there is this natural response of whatever we do, we either hurt ourselves or hurt others or we naturally help others. But What I keep thinking of is, so why did, I'm not sure if Buddha said I'm going to go out and teach, but I wonder about it. So is there, you know, even in your life, you've said you did this because Suzuki Roshi asked you to.

[47:24]

We ordained. Yes, he asked me to be ordained. Ordained. And he also asked you to be the cat taker. Did he ask you to be the cat taker of Berkeley? Yes, he did. Yes. And you just... I just said, okay. Yeah. The reason he asked me is because he knew I would do that. Before I was ordained, I used to wear the same sweater every day. And one day he came up and felt my sweater and he said, this is your rope. So that kind of indication that he understood my mind better than me. So that was good for you and that was easy for you.

[48:25]

It was easy because I was at a place where that's all I wanted to do. I didn't have any thinking like, oh, maybe I want to do this or I have this responsibility or that responsibility. That wasn't present. It was just perfect timing. I was totally free without knowing it. And what I think about is Should we each let that naturally develop? And that is kind of like same as trusting in your center. Yes. Yeah, we should naturally let it. But the only way we can do that is to dedicate ourselves. So, you know, we say we get to practice through our pores. And the only way you can do that is keep running. You know, your pores are open.

[49:28]

You keep, you just do it every day. And then at some point, it all chills. But we don't know what that point is. So instead of saying, is it time for me to teach? I would say instead of that, is it time for me to study? Yeah, so we don't ask for anything. We just keep studying and practicing, and that's it. And then at some point, everything comes together, and someone says, maybe you could say something to people. Because it has to be our own. We can talk about a book or a teaching or something like that, but to be a teacher, we have to communicate we absorb from the dharma, and then we have to digest it so that when it comes out, it's our dharma.

[50:39]

And we back it up with our life. Everything we say about dharma, we have to back up with our life. So if we just say something wrong, somebody can cut our head off. And if it's still the right thing, that's still okay. Well, I miss you. I miss you. I do. So do I, you know, in terms of our Friday evening talks and yeah, Saturday talks and Just sit in your room. Yes. Thanks, Susan. Have a good evening. You too.

[51:42]

We have a few more minutes. If somebody wants to ask a question. Sue. Sue. Sue? Yeah, remember at the beginning? She started to ask a question. Susan Marvin, you mean? I think it was Sue Osher. Oh, no, it wasn't Sue, it was Liz, Lynn. Lynn, do you want to ask a question? Oh, Lynn? Oh, okay. I think it was Lynn. There it was. I didn't realize we hadn't all started. Well, I don't think so at this moment. It's very powerful, everything that's been said. I'm absorbing. Okay. Thank you so much. Okay. You're welcome. Good to see you. Yeah. Anyone else? They could raise their electronic hand or just I'll try and find you in the gallery with your hand up.

[52:42]

Follow-ups are welcome too. Oh, we got Rihanna. Rihanna, unmute yourself. Hey, Sojan. Hey. Nice to see you. You too. I feel afraid to ask this question. Oh, good. But it just showed up, so I'm going to ask it. You just said that, referring to Suzuki, he knew your mind better than you. So... I've had the chance to practice alongside you for a few years now. Do you know my mind better than me? I'm not Suzuki. No, you're so generosity. I don't know if I do or not. I know something about your mind, you know. Can you tell me about it? I think every, no.

[53:46]

I think everyone knows something about everyone else's mind that they're not aware of. I think that's true, you know. You know things about my mind that I'm not aware of and so forth. So I know that you want to practice our practice a lot. And you also feel that physically it's too difficult. So, but I would say there are ways to do that. That, you know, no matter how you practice, some things are difficult physically, some things are difficult emotionally, and some things are difficult mentally. And they can be barriers, each one, or all three, or two.

[54:53]

And I think that you may be kind of a little bit struggling with how to deal with that. That would be my follow up question is when that barrier presents itself as insurmountable. What does one do? It's insurmountable. You know, in order to keep practicing for a long time. Everyone that does that comes up against the insurmountable. And then we just walk through it. Because everything changes. It looks insurmountable, but it may be, I'm not saying it's absolutely insurmountable, but most often it's insurmountable. It depends a lot on your intention.

[55:59]

Well, I'm hearing you say, I mean, insurmountable is just as much of a delusion as something being surmountable. It's just another hill. Some hills are really steep. So... That's, for me, that's a really important part of our practice is that we come to, you know, it's kind of like a medieval journey, you know, you meet dragons and passable, you know, big gaps. You know, how do you get around them, and how do you get over the mountain, and how do you cross the river? It's like that. You come to these, like, really insurmountable barriers, but they're all surmountable.

[57:03]

You have to believe that I can do this. It's surmountable. So that's what I have to say about it. I just have to... Kind of cure yourself without hurting yourself. But sometimes you have to hurt yourself. Life is not so easy, you know. And this path is difficult. You said when we were talking about my research for Leslie James about being willing to die for this path. Yes, I did say that. Right. So yes, it's do or die, but it's really do and die. So that's what you can expect. It's the past that kills you, but it also brings you to life.

[58:06]

Great. Thank you. You're welcome. Chris Evans. Oh, thank you. Sojourn Roshi, can you hear me? I can hear you very well. You've got a lot of plants around there. I like the oxygen. We are fortunate that we read about and sometimes even discuss or study Dogen. But I'm also curious about one of Dogen's teachers, Ru Jing. Is there... a dharma that is associated with Rujing that we should know that's not perhaps as told as often. Please share something about Rujing and his dharma. Yeah, you know, Rujing was a very obscure abbot.

[59:13]

And Dogen kind of upped him up, you know, pumped him up as... you know, this great guy, but research doesn't verify that. So he looked a good, you know, obviously you could have an, obviously he had a great relationship with Dogen and so forth. And I think, but Dogen is telling the truth. But whatever Ru Jing's Dharma was is expressed by Dogen. Yeah. So Dogen, you know, expresses what he's saying, basically. I'm expressing Muji Ustama. So that's... Okay. There is some, you know, you can research that. But I think that's what you'll find. May I have a quick follow-up? Of course.

[60:13]

Thank you. So those of us who laugh a lot and forget a lot, what is your dharma to us that you would like for us to remember? You don't like anything. You just cover it up. Yes, don't cover it up. You're like nothing. I'm genuinely curious with a greedy follow-up question, personal. When I was about six, I sat in front of a Santa in Korea, and I thought, this guy's long beard. I think it's fake to myself. So I yanked at it, and wow, that was not fake.

[61:14]

And I got a taste of his anger, kind of anger that's really inappropriate for kids. Fortunately, I ran away faster than he can get up. But it also makes me wonder, although you look handsome in your beard, at one point when you took the ordination for a priest, you shaved everything off, right? I looked even handsomer. Yeah, okay. So... But aside from the distraction of your comeliness, you did at some point, as a symbol of non-attachment, shave everything off, right? Yes. At what point, you know, is that a symbolism of that you have been trained enough that you sport a beard? I'm just curious. Well, the reason I'm sporting a beard is because now that we're in lockdown. Yeah. There's no need to shave it. So, yeah, that's all.

[62:15]

I'm not trying to do anything. I'm just doing something. I'm not doing something, right? So my head is shaved. But actually, strictly speaking, I should shave the beard and the eyebrows and the ears. And the eyebrows, I don't know. Yeah, that's what Taravata monks do. They shave the eyebrows. Okay, now I have a favor to ask you. Yes, sir. When we're in the same room together in Sashim, would you administer the Kiyosaku compassion stick to me, please? Even if I'm not tired. Wait, we'll get back there. I don't know whether you like it or not. There's a theme here. Yeah, there is. We're on. Okay? Thank you. Okay. Take care. You too.

[63:19]

Ed Herzog? Hi. Good to see you. I just have a I want to bring us back a little bit to politics and For the last few days, I've been really struck by the words of our leaders and how close to fascism he is. And I've read a lot about Germany and Europe and World War II and and How people survived during those periods and I and I feel myself I just I noticed that and you know fear comes up and and anger comes up and I wonder how I React if Some of the ideas that

[64:37]

he is talking about actually comes to pass. And so I, it's a, it's, I'm not really, I don't, I don't know how I'm going to, how I'm going to react to that, but I'm, I, I, I feel like all, I mean, I'm doing a lot right now, but that to me is a whole different ball game. And so I'm wondering how can I find my own peace in the face of what I perceive as fascism, and how do I keep on my path in the face of these ideas? Well, this is your path.

[65:42]

Yeah. It's not a different path. That's true. Yes. How do I stay on the path given this situation? Yes. The path is constant. Yes. The situation keeps changing. Yes. There's always the constant. And the situations are the inconstant, you never know what's gonna happen next. And these things start coming to pass, and you have to deal with them. But you never lose sight of the past. So that's how you do it. I can't tell you the particulars, of course. Even if I told you the particulars, it wouldn't make any difference, right? So you have to figure out what you're going to do. Yes. And it's okay to get scared or whatever.

[66:44]

You know, there's this tension in the air. Right. You can't deny. And, you know, you're going to be here longer than me. I guess in my 72 years on this planet, That's not very long. I haven't, and in my years of being politically aware now, I've never experienced something like this before. This is the worst, yes. Yes, this is the worst. You know, the past 40 years have been building up to this. Yes, you're right. Definitely. I mean, You just see it, you know. Everybody gets more and more out there in the feelers. How can we actually do this? The fountainhead, you know. The guys that could actually do this take over because every country that's big enough wants to take over the world.

[67:55]

China wants to take over the world. Russia wants to take over the world. We want to take over the world. And so the only way to do that, according to them, is through suppression. Yes, yes. And from our point of view, the only way to do that is through love. So we have these two opposing, one is through oppression, the other is through love and bringing everybody together as one. So that's your goal, right? The goal is to bring... the world together as one so that we can all exist together harmoniously which will never happen but that's still our goal we can't give up the goal just because it's never going to happen that's what keeps leading us on so we have to have a goal that's bigger than ourselves yeah yeah so that's you know basically you think in big terms and then you then you can think in smaller terms

[68:58]

People criticize me for thinking of big derms, which I always love. But the particulars, you know, they come with how you meet them as they appear. You can't meet them until they appear. So there's no reason to get over-anxious. There is some anxiety, but there's no reason to get over-anxious because you don't know exactly what it is that's going to appear when. That's true. Yes. You're just ready for whatever is going to happen. You're prepared. You have an opening. This is the best time in the world to sit us in. Because we often think that, oh, I have to do something. Yes. I'm really grateful that we're practicing in this time. In fact, I'm I'm sitting more now than I ever have before, and I really appreciate it.

[70:01]

It's very powerful and so needed, so necessary. Thank you. You're welcome. Let's stay in touch. You bet. We have time for one more question, if somebody has one. If not, I'll ask it. Go ahead. Okay. Dean, last time Dean asked a really poignant question about questions. And I'm wondering if you can say something about your answers. Yes. I'll stop talking. You know... There's the question, and then there's this response. I don't like to call them answers, but there's a response. And so I told Dean, don't focus on the question so much, even though it's stupid or whatever.

[71:12]

Focus on the response from the teacher. Because what you want to hear is the Dharma, right? So the question is, you know, whatever it is but this response is should be coming from the teacher's dharma and so that's how you get the dharma from the teacher is listening to the response to questions if you're not getting the dharma from listening to the or taking in the teacher's responses, and it doesn't matter, well, there's no reason to do this, except, you know, the teacher doesn't give you necessarily what you want to hear. The teacher gives you what he thinks you should hear.

[72:14]

And we're showing ourselves too, right? Yes, we show ourselves, hopefully. We expose ourselves and the teacher exposes his or herself. And getting the dharma is, you know, all involved in that. That's what it's about. Not just answering people, you know, like, where do I get my keys made or, you know, what's for breakfast? It's not that. Although those questions can be turned into dharma. Yeah. As a matter of fact, a lot of the koans are like that. The student visits the teacher and a new student comes to the monastery and the teacher says, well, you're eating your breakfast. Did you wash your bowl? That sounds like an ordinary question, but it's a loaded question.

[73:18]

It's all about... Where is the, you know, about what is the, what does the student really understand and what is it that he really wants? And the teacher tells him to empty his mind, which is a bowl. Go wash your bowl. Go wash your mouth out with soap. You have to look at what's underneath what the teacher's saying. as a response. You have to look underneath what the teacher is saying as a response and not just take it at face value. That's how the teacher is talking to one person, but he's addressing everybody. Thank you, sir. You're welcome. Thanks for hosting. So,

[74:20]

Kika, you did have your hand up to change your mind. I was just Sojan Roshi. Why did Bodhidharma come from the blah, blah, blah? Well, because the blah, blah, blah was already at the blah, blah, blah.

[74:40]

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