the shuso ceremony, and about the three elements of our practice period, what we've been studying, the Heart Sutra, the precepts, and the koan, of which is the true Seijo. Those are the three elements that we've been working with during our practice period. So I want to talk a little bit about, to conclude the precepts with a little talk on the precepts. Precepts have been preempted by the Heart Sutra and Seijo's little tale. So, but first I want to talk about our attitude in the shuso ceremony.

[01:12]

As most of us have experienced shuso ceremonies before, and many of us have been the shuso, but I just I just want to remind us about questions and responses. Something's happening out there. Something big. So sometimes she saw ceremonies called dharma combat, has various names, but it's not a matter of being combative. We don't use that term.

[02:15]

Sometimes we say dharma dialogue, which is a little tame, because it is a dialogue, but it's not a dialogue. In other words, the shuso is not to explain to you what your question is, the answer to your question. It's a meeting of, it's like a capping verse. In the Koan tradition, there are capping verses. There's a statement, and then you, It's like arrow points meeting in midair, or like a cup, a cover fitting a bowl. It's like, there's the question, and then there's the response, and the response fits the question like the cover of a cup.

[03:26]

So it's a matter of how the shuso receives the question and complements the question, finishes the question. So it's not a matter of a long explanation of, you know, blah, [...] But it's beyond thinking. And it's not necessarily the first thing that comes into the shuso's mind, but it could be. That's very nice. Sometimes it's first answer, correct answer. So we don't expect the shuso to be perfect. And we don't expect the questions to be perfect, but I wish they were. So the shuso has never done this before, right?

[04:40]

And it's like a group dokusan or something. So how am I supposed to do this? I have no clues. That's best. No clues. So the shuso has no set answers for anybody. Best way is, huh? What? And then something goes by, and you respond to it. So the thing that goes by is called a question. And the response is, I don't know if I can explain it any better than that, but I probably can. So it's the energy exchange more than the information exchange. It's not about information at all, not that kind of response.

[05:43]

Sometimes a foolish question is the best, because a foolish question is usually not intellectual. stupid question can be really good. Like, what did you have for breakfast today, Shuso? Ha-ha. And then the Shuso can say, well, I had a big plate of zazen, and on the side, nine baos. something, like the energy capping the question, the energy response matching the question. What did you have for breakfast? She said, oh, well, I had bacon and eggs and da, da, da.

[06:46]

That's not it. So you can ask a question, and then the shuso will give a response. And then you can say, well, but what about da-da? And then the shuso will say, da-da-da. And that's it. But what about what? No. So it's not to satisfy your mind, it's to match your energy. so to speak. I mean, it can't be anything. It can be an intellectual response. You can answer, but nobody knows how it's going to go. It's up for grabs. It's improvisation, totally improvisation. So we have several themes that we've been studying.

[07:49]

We've been studying the Heart Sutra, and we've been studying the, at least we've been doing a little bit of the Heart Sutra, and then we've been studying precepts, and we've been studying Seijo and her soul. So those are a whole goldmine for questions. But it can be any question. In Japan, when they have a shuso ceremony, like at Eheji, the questions are all written down. And the shuso's supposed to know what the answers are to the questions that are all ready. And they're mostly about Buddhism, dharma, zen, you know. But it's more than just a performance, because you should know the answers to the questions.

[08:57]

But we've never done that in America. That's not our style. Our style is very freeform, because Americans are kind of freeform. Don't ask a question that has three parts. Or even two parts. Or even a big background. Sometimes the background, you know, is 15 minutes. None of that. Just simple question, simple response. To test the Jusos, not their knowledge, You're not testing their knowledge, you're testing their response, their ability to respond intuitively, so to speak. But intuition includes logic.

[10:01]

It's not just, you know, a hunch. But it's drawn from, it's a direct, more of a direct response. So, I know that our shushu is up to task. And in the evolution of our shushu ceremonies, so to speak, there are quite a few people who've learned to ask good questions. So, that's that. Do you have any question about that? Is there somebody's hand behind Alan's head? Yeah. Is it okay if you ask a repeat question? What kind? If a question already is asked.

[11:02]

Yes, yes, you can. But yes, you can ask a question that somebody else has asked because the question is, even though it's the same question, it's not the same response. That's okay. Everybody can ask the same question. I like that. I like that. Because the response has to be fresh and different for everyone. Yes. You can ask that if you want, but don't ask me. Oh, yeah, I see a hand on the other side of the post. You said the shiso has never done this before. That's correct.

[12:04]

And there's also from time to time in lecture, you know, we have done this before. No, we've never done that before. We've done something like that before. That's right, we've never done this before. What we've done is history. Yeah, we've never done this before. We've had shuso ceremonies. Each one was, we'd never done before. So that's actually the spirit of this, is that we're doing something that's never been done before, even though the forms and the way we do things has some similarity to what we did before. So, Aja McMullin, who lives in Oregon, studied with his teacher in Japan.

[13:05]

Yeah. And it was time for a shiso ceremony. He begged his teacher, Please, can there be spontaneous questions? Can we not follow the script?" And his teacher said, don't worry about it. It's the same either way. Yes. That's true. That's very true. So, when I was just so at Tassajara, Tatsugami Roshi was my honchi, or not my honchi, but he was, Suzuki Roshi was sick, and he couldn't, this is 1970, and he was unable to come to Tassajara. And so we invited Tatsugami Roshi to come for the practice period, to lead the practice period. So he was the honcho, not the honshi.

[14:11]

And so when I went to, was that the night before, you know, Japanese monks always eat noodles, and they go, they don't chew them. That's the style. And that's a big treat, you know. And so he and I ate noodles. And he had the Jishi cook us some noodles, and we ate them. And he said, if you eat these noodles without showing them, you'll have a really good shuso ceremony tomorrow. Is it true? Yeah. No, actually it wasn't true. So then he said, when we have the shuso ceremony, you won't be facing the sangha.

[15:17]

You face to the side so that you're not looking at who's asking a question. Nobody's ever done that before since Zen Center. So it was very interesting, although you know people's voices, so you know who's asking the question. But he said it's like questions coming from all sides, and nothing personal. it's not really personal. So you're dealing with the question. You're also dealing with the person, but the question is the important thing, and this response is the important thing. So in the course of my responses, someone said, will you chant the Heart Sutra?

[16:22]

And I said, The real response is just take the shippe and go, boom. But I was too scared to do that. So I said, kanji. And then everybody started chanting. We chanted the whole satsang. And then Katagiri Roshi, who was Katagiri Sensei at the time, He said, afterward, he said, oh, there were some very good answers, but there were some really bad answers. And then he said, why did we catch a heart surgery? That was a ceremony. You know, Juso feels good about the good answers and not so good about the bad answers. That's par for the course.

[17:25]

James? Say that again. I didn't know which ones he was talking about. They all seemed good or bad to me. I didn't try to evaluate which were the good ones and which were the bad ones. I was 1970. I'd been practicing six years. And all of us were just novices. I started the Berkley Zendo, well, after practicing three years. We thought that was a long time. Now, if I see somebody who's been practicing 20 years, I don't think they've been practicing so long.

[18:32]

So I wanted to talk about precepts. There's so many aspects of precepts and so much that we didn't address in the class. But you know, in the history of our Zen practice, Gatas have always been ways of reminding ourselves about how to behave or about how to approach our practice. Back in the 80s or 90s, I don't know, way back there in the 20th century, There was a time when gatas were popular. And I'll read you gatas, and you'll see what I mean.

[19:43]

And Soto Zen has gatas for when you wake up in the morning, when you eat, when you go to the bathroom, when you do various things, to remind you of how you're practicing in various situations. And this is the little book of gathas that we had that are from Soto Zen. And this one is after waking up. This morning, as I wake, I vow with all sentient beings to attain awakening to everything without throwing off the world. So this is the essence of Mahayana practice. The thing is that the gatha thing never really took hold, although we enjoyed it while it was around.

[20:47]

There's a case of verses like that, the chant in the morning. We used to chant that only in Japanese at Sokoji. And one time I asked Suzuki Roshi, what is the meaning of that chant that we do in the morning? Nobody had a robe, so we didn't put them on our head. What is that chant that we do in the morning? Katagiri was there, and he started looking through the drawers to see if he could find a translation. And Suzuki Hiroshi just turned and he said, it means love. And then there's, of course, the gata that I reintroduced. Now as I take food and drink, I vow with all sentient beings to partake of the pleasure of Zen and to fully enjoy the Dharma. So that's the short verse that we use sometimes when we have an informal talk, a meal.

[21:54]

And then at the end, now that I have taken food and drink, I vow with all sentient beings to be full of pure practice and filled with the ten powers. I'm not going to go into what the ten powers are, because there are different ten powers, and it takes too long, and I'd have to have a book in front of me. And then the verse of opening the talk. And then the verse before going to bed. Tonight before I sleep, I vow with all sentient beings to still all things and to clear the mind of confusion. I like that one. Not too long ago, when Akin Roshi was still alive, he put together a book of his gathas, this book called The Dragon Who Never Sleeps.

[23:01]

It didn't get, it got published, but I don't think it got anywhere, I mean distributed much. But I'm going to talk a little bit about some of these gathas because they're all gathas about our daily life. And anywhere I turn in this book, there's some really good gathas. Preparing to enter the shower, I vow with all beings to wash off the last residue of thoughts about being pure. Preparing to enter the shower, I vow with all beings to cleanse this body of Buddha and go naked into the world.

[24:06]

These are about non-attachment to dharma. Turning to use the toilet, I vow with all beings to honor my body's knowledge of what to retain and what to let go of. James. The dragon that never sleeps. I think the gata is the same as the gata and tagata. That's the, what, tatagata? No, no. That's different. That's the Buddha. Tatagata is the Buddha. This is just a gata. A gata. Gata is G-A-T-H-A. Yeah. And that one you're asking about is just G-A-T-A. Something like that, yeah. Anyway, they sound the same, but they're not the same.

[25:09]

So, lathering up for a shave, I guess he used a razor, I vow with all beings to cut off my silly vanity and trust what is there underneath. And when I check my face in the mirror, I vow with all beings to present the original woman who preceded the Buddha Dharma, or the Buddha Tao. That's his mother. Offering rice to the Buddha, I vow with all beings to honor your gentle injunction that we keep our sustenance plain, plain food. So when a question threatens my thesis,

[26:31]

I vow with all beings to try it out as antithesis and see if a synthesis works. That's good, to look at both sides, all sides when you're challenged to see what really works. When people show anger and malice, I vow with all beings to listen for truth in the message, ignoring the way it is said. That's really good. Get behind the words. You know, we are so fooled by the appearance. And when the shuso is given a question, to get behind the words. to go beyond the words to the essence.

[27:36]

That's what I've been trying to say, to get beyond the words and respond to the essence of the question, which may not sound like an answer to the person asking the question. I think it can be just the other way around also. In other words, a person could ask you in an angry way or say something. And I think he's saying, that it's true. Yes. Well, yes, there is a message. So, what's the real message, is what he's saying, yes. When I'm worried about my attachments, I vow with all beings to remember interdependence.

[28:42]

If I weren't attached, I'd be dead. We worry about attachment, you know, and then we read the book. The book says, non-attachment, non-attachment, but attachment is necessary and important. The problem is not the attachment. The problem is our attachment to the attachment. When someone close to me dies, I vow with all beings to settle in ultimate closeness and continue our dialogue there. Interesting. When someone close to me dies, I vow with all beings to settle in ultimate closeness and continue our dialogue there. So what is ultimate closeness? I'm not going to explain that one.

[29:46]

You have to find that yourself. Facing my imminent death, I vow with all beings to go with the natural process at peace with whatever comes. Hopefully. Watching my body get older, I vow with all beings to be absolute for dying and rejoice in my family and friends. And feeling toxic with aches in my joints, I vow with all beings to acknowledge we are all of us dying and take comfort in hot lemonade. When the doctor pokes here and there, I vow with all beings to concede that my cellular structure will all come apart soon enough.

[30:47]

When the dentist takes up his drill, I vow with all beings to welcome the pain and discomfort as doors to a steady mind. That's a good one. That sounds good. When it's hard to be true to my faith, I vow with all beings to trust that my little hobgoblin will find ways to help me hold fast. When it's hard to be true to my faith, when you have doubts, I vow with all beings to trust that my little hobgoblin will find ways to help me hold fast. Hobgoblin, find ways to help you. Okay. When the outcome proves disappointing, I bow with all beings to look again at my purpose. Was it dharma or something else?

[31:52]

In dealing with questions of sex, I vow with all beings to recall the perennial precepts. Don't harm. Don't steal. Don't exploit. So tell me when this is getting old. You're here. Do you have any gatha of your own? James? I'd like to hear about the precepts. Say that again. You said this was about the precepts and I'd like to hear something about them. That's what these are. These are all precepts.

[32:59]

This is your precept. The precepts that are coming from you that help to guide you. This is not something imposed from outside. That's what we were trying to say all along. Precepts come from within you. Because it's your own self guidance that you want to express and you express it in the gata. This is called the living precepts. You see where you need guidance and where you want to remind yourself. Precepts are to remind us of how we guide ourselves, not somebody else telling you what to do, although those precepts are also important. I will recognize it's the door to the universe.

[34:04]

That's good. Joel? Yeah. Vicky, Austin got me to doing presets before and after composing. I was saying, well, yeah, it's practice. And there's truth to that. and Bodhisattvas aid the slaver. And afterwards, I say, may the slaver be of benefit to all beings. And it's very powerful and helpful. Yeah. Some years ago, at a time when I was at Tessahara, and Thich Nhat Hanh came down for a while. Thich Nhat Hanh had a lot of... He had a proposal in our precepts. Yes. Yes.

[35:09]

That's right. I remember that. I'm sure I have taken out Hans' precepts in my office somewhere. I was too lazy to go find them. I'm sorry. I think this is probably a very pedestrian question, Precepts and gathas. Why is one a precept and why is one a gatha? What makes it what? Well, a gatha is just a certain, a precept is the basis. The way precepts are presented and produced are the particulars. So precept is just a general, a generic term.

[36:12]

But the way they're produced and thought about can be anything. Precepts are just the way we live our life. They're already there. Agatha is a way of expression. Agatha is just a way of expression in order to fit a certain situation. So these are all to fit a certain situation. to help you remember a certain situation. You know, in Buddhism, there are mnemonic devices. So, Agatha is just a mnemonic device to help you remember. You know, when you read the Pali Sutras in situ, is that right? They repeat themselves over and over again.

[37:17]

You get to say, well, God, get to the point, you know? But they're mnemonic devices in order to chant. Most of the old Pali precepts were devised to be chanted. So they're repetitious over and over again. They repeat the main line, and then they say the thing, and then they repeat again, and they're just very repetitious. Nobody wants to read them. But they were meant to be chanted by young boys. or whoever it was that were the monks. So they remember. Everything was oral in those days. And people had to memorize everything. So they trained their memories. And in the old days, they trained themselves to their memories so that they could express the Dharma.

[38:26]

Sutras, they memorized whole sutras. Speaking of old days, you said that you started Berkeley Zen Center after sitting just for three years. I think so. Yeah. And then you said that now if you see someone who's been sitting just 20 years, it's not so long. It's an exaggeration. I was just exaggerating for effect. Yes. There's a virtue to that because it's like with the duration of practice, at 50 years we're constantly publishing and learning and we could be maybe more grounded in establishing something versus maybe a useful enthusiasm early on. Yeah. So there's a balance there between the two. Yes. Granting, yes, please start Zendo, or maybe it's a little too soon.

[39:29]

Yeah. You know, when we were practicing with Suzuki Roshi, I had a great affinity for him. I absorbed his teaching, and that's all I... Because he knew that I had absorbed his teaching, even though I was a neophyte, he trusted that I would continue it. So that's all I did. I didn't really do something on my own for my own sake. I just was... continuing and presenting, or helping people to do what I'd learned. But since he's not here, it takes longer for people to absorb his teaching through me.

[40:33]

That's true. But we got his teaching very quickly. Well, it's neither good nor bad. When we were with Suzuki Roshi, we we just absorbed him through our body. And I remember Bill Kwong and I were teaching Zen at Sonoma State, believe it or not. And because he was living up there, he, again, Joji, he,

[41:38]

had started this class at Sonoma State, and then when he went to Bishuzo, Tassajara, he asked me to do it for him, so I did. But we were both there at the same time in the transition, and we gave a talk, and this woman said, you know, there's something about you two. that's something similar in the way you present this teaching. It's very similar. And where does that come from? And of course, it was we both took on Suzuki Roshi's characteristics, and we were teaching through his characteristics. And Suzuki Roshi was teaching through the characteristics of his teachers, and his teachers were teaching the characteristic of their teachers. And so that's kind of like the, you know, the way the teaching gets handed down. It's not through talking and this and that. It's through the student taking on the characteristics of the teacher, not just the way they talk and the way they move and all this.

[42:49]

And that's what gets carried down. reminds me, and I always quote this, my story about Dizzy Gillespie and Roy Eldridge. They're both trumpet players, and Roy Eldridge is, you know, wonderful trumpet player. And Dizzy Gillespie took on his style, and he learned it thoroughly. But then he Then he moved out from that style into his own style. But you can't say whether it's Roy Eldridge's style or whether it's Dizzy Gillespie's style. It's like the same with births and deaths. It's like an imprint. There's an imprint that happens, a seal. And it's neither one nor the other. What continues is a new birth, so to speak.

[43:55]

And that's the way the Dharma is transmitted. But the people who study with Suzuki Roshi has absorbed his characteristics, which was a very subtle teaching. from Suzuki Roshi, but when Greg was asking me about what's the future of Soto Zen in America, and whether that practice will continue in other disciples, it's hard to say. It's really hard to say what will be not preserved, but continued as authentic and what will not. Alan. I want to avoid being long-winded, but it's very deeply moving to me to hear you reading the words of Abraham Lincoln.

[45:09]

transmission that I received from him was primarily in the context of Dharma and language. And so you're bringing his words alive, and it just deeply moved. And I hear, whenever I sit down and write, I hear some of his voice. in the spirit of what I want to say. So maybe that's enough. It's very moving. And you had your own relationship. That's right. He was very eloquent. When I read his stuff from Aiken Rush, he's so eloquent. It's almost too much. He did have a critique of our school, yes.

[46:23]

He did. Yep. No. I don't have any disagreement. The only I never did have any disagreement with him. But the only disagreement I had with him was in his first successor. But I always disagreed with that. from the very beginning. We were an affiliate of Zen Center, and Richard was always there with Suzuki Yoshi.

[47:35]

he sent Richard over to discuss with me what kind of affiliation we should have, whether we should pay dues to Zen Center or whatever. And then Richard came over and he said, well, you know, I don't think you should pay, I don't think, whether we should be supported by Zen Center in some way. That was what it was. And he said, I don't think Zen Center should support you. He said, if you're really authentic, you should be supported by the people who come there. And I thought that was a double message for me, because I thought, well, why wouldn't you be generous? Why shouldn't Zen Center be somewhat generous, you know, even in a token way? But then I also thought, you're right. the members should support the temple without trying to get outside help. And that's the way we've always operated.

[48:37]

And so I always appreciated that. I always appreciated everything that Richard did to me, or toward me. toward me that ordinarily would be perceived as insulting. But working with that really helped me. We should all have adversity. We should all be working with adversity. And so I totally appreciate Richard for presenting me with so much adversity. honestly. And so, when I came here, when I opened the zendo with Suzuki Roshi's blessing, I just said to myself, you know, I'm just here to sit zazen.

[49:46]

If everybody wants to come by, that's fine. If not, Anybody can come and go, and I have no attachment to anyone. And so, here's what we have. And my attitude is still the same. I think so, even though I don't know anything about them. Well, you can pick up any gata that you want. Not too many. Don't get too confused. But if you have one gata that you work with,

[50:48]

That's good. And you do it like when you wake up or when you go to the bathroom or whatever. And then if that works, pick up another one. So ease into it so that, you know, our tendency is sometimes to pick up a big load of stuff, you know, and then it gets kind of heavy and then we put it down. That one thing at a time, that's the way also we talk about progress in our practice. Progress in our practice, very slow. Yes, and so, you know, people want to do things, right? And so our practice is to slow us down. and take everything away. Sorry. So practice goes against our grain because we want to go ahead.

[51:53]

Practice slows us down. Just this, just this. Don't try to get ahead. The fastest way to get ahead is to not try to get ahead. The person that doesn't try to get ahead is usually the one that's promoted. over a long period of time. James again. This is the last one. You've got to speak to me, not speak to the floor. Yes. This is the greatest opportunity we've ever had. Turn off the radio. You know what?

[53:01]

What you can't avoid, you have to face. Yes. You're welcome. We're dealing with one brief story about y'all taking Suzuki Roshi to the Summer of Love human being. Oh yeah, the human being. Well, you know, this is, what year was that? 67, the year we opened Zendo and the year we started Tassajara. Tassajara and Berkeley Zendo opened at the same time, same year. You know, it was the year of the hippies. I think it was hippies, there were the Bohemians, then the beatniks. I was in the beatnik era, and segued into the hippie era, but I wasn't a real hippie, I was a beatnik. More than that.

[54:03]

But anyway, then the flower children and all this, right? So, but they were, anyway, it was one of those eras. And they were gonna have the human beat in, which was, you know, and so many of Suzuki Roshi's students were beatniks, and some hippies, because the hippies started with studying. And they all wanted, they say, hey, Suzuki Roshi, we'd like to take you down to this thing. We don't know what it is, but we're doing it in Golden Gate Park. And Suzuki goes, oh, okay. I mean, he wouldn't say no. He didn't know what was going on exactly, but he liked the beatniks. He really liked the beatniks. because he felt that these were people who were not content with the status quo and were looking for something vital.

[55:08]

You know, society bogs down into depravity. And these were people who were trying to get out of that. And so that's what he appreciated. Those are the people that came to him. We all went down there to the BN, and I think he gave a little talk, as I remember. Yeah, he gave a talk, and I can't remember exactly what he said, but he said something positive, you know, something really positive that he hoped everybody would, you know, find their freedom or whatever it is. And I think after that, a lot of people came to Zen Center. Because there was a, 67 was a time when young people started flooding Zen Center.

[56:13]

And as Seki Roshi said, we have to be careful that we don't have a Zen boom. A lot of people coming in a superficial way. And just because a lot of people doesn't mean that the practice is thriving. It can mean various things. So he was interested in sincere people following the practice and not just sightseers. But sightseers are important too. Somebody will be introduced to the practice and go away and then 10 years later, they come back. That happens all the time, because not everybody is mature enough to take on the practice right away. But they experience it. That's the thing about giving dazen instruction on every Saturday morning.

[57:16]

Nobody comes back, except sometimes. But then, years later, they remember, and they come back. So you don't know what the far-reaching result is of giving zazen instruction to people. You just do it, and that is the basis of our practice. You just do it without any expectations. If it's one person, you give them zazen instruction. If it's 20 people, you give them zazen. It's all the same, and you expect nothing. but things happen. So, that's the end. And let's remember to keep our mouths quiet till the end, the very end.

[58:17]

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