Well, I have a little list. I think it's Gilbert and Sullivan, right? I have a little list. My little list is a list of opposites. Good and bad. Right and wrong. Like and dislike. Hard and easy. Delusion and enlightenment. blame and fame, self-deprecation, flagellation. Those are not opposites. Obsessive guilt. This is no longer opposites. Excessive guilt, calm mind, composure, dualistic thinking, beyond duality, perfection-imperfection, success-failure, formal-informal, good Zen student, bad Zen student.

[01:14]

A good Zen student is a bad Zen student, and a bad Zen student is a good Zen student. The one thing that I'm not beyond being upset, I'll tell you that. Even though I'm a bad Zen student. When I hear somebody say, I'm a bad Zen student, I want to smack them in the jaw. Because they're a bad Zen student, not because of what they think about themselves, but the fact that they're saying that. There's no such thing as a good Zen student or a bad Zen student. It's simply an ego statement, egotistical statement. Oh, I'm a bad Zen student. So please excuse me for being a bad Zen student. because you think you should be a good Zen student.

[02:26]

And because you don't come up to the level of being a good Zen student, then you're a bad Zen student. Actually, there's no such thing even as a good Zen, as a Zen student, much less a good or bad one. Basically, we're just doing what we're doing. Sometimes, We don't come up to our expectations. Sometimes we think that we're doing well, but we're not. You know, as Suzuki Roshi used to say, we just do things one after the other, one thing after another. The most difficult thing is not to get caught in the realm of duality.

[03:39]

Right and wrong, good and bad. Sometimes we say to a person, you're just a person of right and wrong, always judging. this is right, this is wrong, this is good, this is bad. There is right and wrong and good and bad, but the problem is that if we don't have a foundation beyond right and wrong, good and bad, then we simply bounce between polarities. Sometimes if we are corrected, so to speak, we feel judged. One of the hardest things is for teachers to correct students. Correct means go this way instead of that way.

[04:50]

it's not a matter of judgment, it's a matter of if you step in that hole, if you're not watching where you're going you're going to step in that hole, that's called correction. If you're going this way when you should be going that way, you say this is correct, right, so that's correction, it's not we often feel that we're being judged according to right and wrong. So that's a good thing. It's a good thing because we have the opportunity to look at our self-centeredness, to look at how we judge ourselves and how we judge others. If we take a look at how our consciousness works, how we mutter to ourself, you know what I mean?

[06:06]

We're always muttering to ourself. And I find myself muttering to myself. Sometimes I go to the altar and I see how whoever put the things, straightened things out, they're not paying attention, and I'm muttering to myself. Can't they see that it's off? That's the mind, the muttering mind. And then I catch myself. I say, I don't want to criticize this person. But then my wife goes, mutter, mutter, mutter, mutter. We're always blaming our mother. So there's a sound that's coming off your mic that's rubbing on you.

[07:08]

Oh yeah, the rub. This is the rub. Thank you. That's better. Sometimes, you know, often we make excuses. It sounds like the sound is not so high. Sometimes we make excuses or rationalization. we rationalize our mutter. We rationalize our, when we're corrected, sometimes we, in order to escape feeling bad about ourself, we make a rationalization. And as soon as we make a rationalization, we put a clamp around our leg, like a trap.

[08:15]

And then, the more we rationalize our behavior, instead of simply accepting what it is, the deeper we get into our hole. The clamp gets tighter and tighter, and then it's pretty hard to get out. And then we, get caught in self-deprecation and various unwholesome ways of thinking about ourself and about others. Suzuki Roshi used to say, it's really good for a student to be mischievous, to show themselves. I like a mischievous student, someone who is out there Yeah, I did this, I did that, and I'm not so good at this, and I'm okay about that.

[09:20]

Simply seeing things as it is, and acknowledging our behavior as it is, because it reveals the person, and whether the person is difficult or easy to deal with, you know what you're dealing with. So I think that's important for us. People say, you know, all of us are in a certain kind of practice together, and we rub up against each other in various ways. Everyone is different and unique, and each one of us, and we cannot, we can conform to a certain behavior, to a certain extent, but not completely. So everyone has a so-called rough spot, meaning a spot that I don't like.

[10:26]

So when we're really open with each other, we can accept more easily who we are. And, you know, people say, well, these people are Zen students. How come they're acting like this and that? Right? Well, Zen students, you know, are just people. When they're an ordinary, life where people don't all live together or necessarily practice in a certain way together, they don't necessarily have the same relationships as Zen students. But if we took twenty or thirty people off the street and put them all together in this kind of situation, it would be interesting.

[11:40]

I think we'll do pretty well, even though we have problems, and we all have these problems. Suzuki Roshi liked to emphasize that we practice within our delusions. Practice takes place within our delusion. Realizing that we practice within our delusions is enlightenment. And the enlightened person realizes, oh, this is delusion, or this is the way I am, and this is the way I act, and I accept the way everyone else acts because I understand that we all act according to our conditioning, and everybody's conditioning is different.

[12:49]

I remember when we started Tassajara, 14 miles into the middle of the jungle, in the middle of the mountains, where you can't go to the grocery store, you know, and you can't go to the movies. How do you feed everybody that comes from different backgrounds? So we had to create menus that everyone could relate to and be nourished by and satisfied with. And that's how actually we created our Zen diet, which had influence in the 60s and 70s on the healthy food movement.

[13:52]

It was a catalyst for the healthy food movement. But we had to, how to create a situation where everyone in that situation can find a common ground. So, we find this common ground by sitting satsang. Interesting. Just shut your mouth and sit down. But, you know, we get easily upset. by when we're sitting Zazen like Sashin, and we're building up a lot of energy that's not being released. So we're full of this energy that's not being released.

[14:54]

And so often we see some, you know, we see the person over there, the way they rub their nose, you know, I wish they wouldn't do that. And we build up little angst or cases against certain people. So, and then we also it's possible to start correcting people. They're not doing it right. So right and wrong is, you know, can be a kind of problem. When we're in a situation where we have a kind of formal practice, we think about right and wrong.

[15:58]

We do things in a correct way, and when it's not done in a correct way, we start criticizing. But I have to tell you, if I started doing that, I do that sometimes, but if I'm attached to that, I would go nuts, because I see everybody doing everything wrong. Except that it's not wrong. That's why everybody's doing what they have to do. But when I get into a judgmental state of mind, I can see that everybody's doing it. I look and see nobody is doing orioke completely correctly. It's true, but it's okay. It has to be okay, otherwise I go crazy. But we all manage to eat, you know, and watch the bulls, and everything goes very smoothly. you know, in its own unsmooth way. That's what's interesting.

[17:02]

Even though none of it's totally correct, it all works. That's our world. Even though we can't control the way everything goes, we have to flow with the way things actually are without getting upset. Yes. That's a good point about we can't control the world. So I like things in a particular order in space. And so when you're saying that you approach the altar and this impulse arrives or this voice comes up, you could, I'm going to advocate for this, you could leave things a little askew and live with that. Yet you've chosen to line things up according to a form that has balance and kind of brings to the visible what we're trying to cultivate inside. So I wonder if leaving things askew, like I try sometimes in my own apartment to do that, if that actually can be

[18:06]

I don't know if that's necessarily helpful or not. I think that's fine. You should go into my apartment. So, you know, yes, I adjust the articles on the altar so that they all are harmonious with each other, right? But it's okay if they're not, because I'm not attached to them being that way. It's okay if they're not, and most of the time they're not, so what can I do about that?

[19:15]

The thing is that everything is perfect the way it is. But that doesn't mean that we don't try to make an effort to make things work in the best way we can. So we make an effort to make things work in the best way they can. we can't control everything. So by doing, by creating a situation where we do the best we can, this lights up our world. But then a storm comes and wipes it all away. And then we start all over again. And then the storm comes and wipes it away. And then we start all over again. Then a storm comes once in a way. So, everything is perfect the way it is.

[20:18]

But that doesn't mean I have to like it. I have to accept it. Yes, I have to accept it. As Master Rinzai said, everything is going exactly the way I want it to go. And somebody said, well, what do you mean by that? everything is just as it is. Understanding that we're not attached to things being perfect, we still set up a pretty high standard for ourselves. Could you speak to the value of that higher standard that we don't necessarily achieve? Well, it depends on what we mean by high standard. If we think that a high standard means that everything has to be just so, that may not be a good high standard.

[21:24]

So a high standard may be just to let everything be as it is. The reason it's a challenge is because we haven't been trained. It's too hard to train everybody. We only do it once a week. We did it every day with training. Because the thing about Aoyoki is that there are moves that make everything move smoothly. when you know exactly how to do all the moves, everything moves harmoniously and smoothly, and that's the pleasure of orioke, is that you know, your hand, you make a move with your hand this way, and sometimes you make a move with your hand this way, depending on how you want to make the utensils go into the, you know, and so you do one thing after another in a harmonious pattern.

[22:36]

And then it's very satisfying. But we can't teach everybody to do that. So that's why we just do the best we can, basically. And it works. So my desire would be that we all train. When you go to Tassajara, everybody doesn't say wait, because they're doing it three meals a day, right? That's very satisfying, but it's satisfying for me if I don't expect it to be anything other than what it is, and I'm perfectly satisfied. But the standard, so what is the standard, right? If I thought the standard should be that everybody should do it correctly, that doesn't, it's impossible. It's like Sisyphus and his rock, but we're gaining something by pushing the rock? Are we actually improving our spiritual center? Are we... Pushing what rock?

[23:38]

You know, Sisyphus pushing the rock until it grows down every day. That's his work. Yes, so Sisyphus... The answer to Sisyphus is the satisfaction should be in the work itself, not in the result. If Sisyphus is tied to the result, it's nothing but frustration. And that's what's happening to most people in their lives, is their Sisyphus-ing. So the satisfaction has to be in the steps, in every step. That's Zen practice. The satisfaction has to be in every step and not in the, not waiting for the result. So, just a minute. So that's why we just, Sashin is just living one moment at a time with the satisfaction being in each breath.

[24:46]

We narrow it down to just this breath, just this breath, just this breath, and then inhaling, and then exhaling. And then the minutia of moments, just this moment, just this bit, is the whole universe, covers the whole universe. So, but if the satisfaction was in something else, like, it doesn't lead to anything, right? It only leads to here. I'm glad you brought that up, that's really a good analogy. Sisyphus, yeah, frustrated because the rock rolls back down again. Then he has the great opportunity to push it up again, instead of the chore. But in the work, the hard work, is the satisfaction. Thank you for that. One thought, one breath, which is kind of what we experience and learn in Zazen.

[26:08]

And you alluded, though, to training. Training. And I think this is a living tension here, in a good way, that we are not at training Yes. Yes. Yes. People have the idea of Zen training, but Zen training is simply training to balance our ego with our true nature. That's our training. It's nothing else but that. And we have priests, you know, all priests do these other things, you know, special things.

[27:13]

To me, that's not training. What training is, is training, it's not training. But how do you see the altar? Yes, the altar, there's no one thing that's any more outstanding than any other thing on the altar. When it's out of kilter, then the balance is off. So, the altar represents balance and I don't want to say power, but it has a message, and the message is that each article is balanced with every other article in that space, with space around it, and each particle relates to every other part in balance, which is

[28:14]

And there's no one part that sticks out in an egotistical way that says, I am the. Every part is connected and plays a part on that stage. It's a kind of stage, right? And all the people up there, you know, the Buddha, Manjushri, and those little figures in the bowl. They're placed in a way that they interact with each other in a harmonious way. How do we learn that? How do we what? How do we learn that? What's that? How do we learn what is the proper relationship to be into each other? That's what we're doing. Yes, that's our training. That's what our training is. How do we relate to each other in the right way that's harmonious? and beneficial.

[29:16]

That's the training. Yes? I always want to say to you and to all the various teachers in my past, please don't say everything is perfect just as it is now. This is it. So I'll go from there too. How about, what happens use an example to talk about this question that everybody's talking about. Instead of an innocuous example, like whether you do your karaoke right, or whether everything is lined up on the altar right, what if you use an example like, or even Sisyphus, which is being presented as neutral, like up, down, up, down. What if we use an example like a higher standard of taking care things so that, for example, just recently somebody didn't take care of safety and 36 young people were burned alive.

[30:27]

A lot of huge harm is done, you know, if somebody doesn't do it right. Does that change the way of talking about it, like from when you talk about it, or Yoki, I don't know if your analogies really line up for me. Yeah, perfect doesn't necessarily mean right. Well, perfect means that there are two levels. One level is things are just the way they are. And the other level is things are the way I like them or don't like them, or should be or should not be. So everything is perfect, meaning everything is just as it is. You can't, that's, right? Everything is just as it is.

[31:33]

Everything is just as it is, and you cannot complain. I mean, you can complain, but it doesn't help. But on the human level, we have right and wrong, good and bad, like and dislike, want and not want, and bad and right. So there are two levels. So in our understanding, we have to present both levels. We have to be aware of both levels, not just one. So you understand, right? Yes. Yes. Meat has gone out of use, but doesn't it seem like it's meat that this should be so, that M-E-E-T, mind you. It's meat that it should be so. It's cloudy, it should be colder. It's sunny, it should be warmer. Yes, yeah. It follows, it follows. Yeah, it follows rather than should, but yeah.

[32:37]

It wants, it follows. Yeah, it's meat. It's in the old Zen writings. Yeah, it's meat, that's okay. That's good. Peter? I'm kind of wondering whether or not this question that you were trying to raise, there's a dimension to looking at the question, which is, you say everything is as it is. everything is as it is, is that I'm responding to something which is not right. Yes. That's part of the mandala. That's part of the what? That's part of the mandala. Meaning? In other words, what's balanced in the situation is, is that it is exactly what it is, and I'm responding to something that I think... Yes, that's the human... That's right, that's... That's part of the balance. In the human realm.

[33:37]

Yeah, in the human realm. You're not outside the mongoloid. Well, that's what I just said. Well, I didn't catch that. I know. I did say that. Yes. There are two levels. One is the human level. Good and bad. Shouldn't, shouldn't. Right and wrong. But I think that the distinction between one example and, for instance, the example of the altar, the way you talked about it, was that I come up to the altar and I see the altar is not in balance. But actually, you're part of the altar, too. And so, in that response, you're bringing the altar into balance with yourself. I'm bringing myself to balance with the altar. Yes, of course. Without me, there wouldn't even be one. But to think about the circumstances that are in or out of balance, outside of one's own perception and participation in that, I think is where we get caught. That's over my head.

[34:47]

Sorry. Okay. I'll work on it. It's to be avoided, I think, is what you're saying. Well, whatever we interact with, whatever we observe, we interact with. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And we change whatever, but the thing itself doesn't change. The equation changes. Yeah, in the context of what's happening. Yeah. You know, do you narrowly or do you more broadly? You know, to adjust things on the, if the altar is askew, right, it means we're not paying attention to the harmony of our, the symbol of the harmony of our practice. Yeah. So no matter how we're feeling or what we would like to keep the symbol of our practice in balance, sends us a message.

[35:54]

Even though we don't perceive it consciously, it affects us. Yes. I think one of the things that we get stuck on words, I mean I get stuck on words and it took me a very long time to say, oh this is perfect the way it is. And it's like, no it's not perfect. What has happened to deal with, it's almost like there's a, I mean it sounds so petty to put it this way, it's almost like it's attitude dependent. It is what it is. It's a big sort of, you know, it is what it is.

[36:55]

It is what it is. I left the election party, I went home and I had some ice cream, I went to sleep, and I didn't watch the news for several days. And that was so less costly to me. And now, with dealing with caretaking my mother, that I have to tell her over and over. And what's happened is I've realized it is what it is. Whether it's good or bad, I like it or not, I just have to, every time, say the same thing over and over. And the cost comes from me putting that judgment on it, or, oh, I wish you wouldn't do this. Well, that would be great, but that's not what it is. And I think the thing with what happened is, it's not that it's perfect, what happened, but that is what happened. the way that it's for me I'm finding it's so much less costly for me when that's what happened and I wait and I see what I can do or how I can participate but the cost of it like being irritated oh yeah I can't be that person they breathe so loud all the time well you know what they just do it it's my job to not

[38:15]

not get so committed to it. Yes, yes. You know, the practice is to come back to the calmness of our mind. Things happen, and the way to control is to come back to the calmness of our mind. Because what there is to control is our self. And when our self is, when we have enough self-control, meaning not trying to control, then we can flow with whatever's going on without losing our composure. That's what our practice is.

[39:18]

That's our training. Our training is to be able to maintain our composure. We get angry, we have all these emotional upsets, and to maintain our composure within all of that is our practice. That's what our training is. And living in the world, and dealing with the high power and contradictions that are continuously flying back and forth to maintain our composure within all that is our practice. Doesn't mean we don't get upset, doesn't mean we don't get angry, doesn't mean we don't get frustrated, but how we maintain our composure within those difficult emotions, difficult problems, is what our practice is. And then we can act out of our bigger mind, our big mind, instead of out of our emotions.

[40:28]

And then the emotions can be transformed into action that's beneficial instead of harmful. I just had a very nice experience because I was very much following along what you were saying. And before Ross asked this question, it kind of just rolled around and I was attached to acknowledging our behavior as it is. And I was getting a little bit upset that we couldn't get back to the subject that you started. Although everyone's questions were interesting, I was still attached to that thing. And just as you were answering Dean's question, I did let it go, and I did return to my calmness, and I'm open now to the remaining 10 minutes. Whatever you can do, whatever you can do. I'm grateful for this practice, just for that very moment.

[41:34]

I have a Sisyphus story. I was aggravated with sojourn. I've seen one time, this was a long time ago, and we were doing something with bricks, and we had a pile of bricks behind the zendo, and you had us moving the bricks during one period from that behind the zendo over to here, and then the next day you had us moving them back. Oh, that was really good. Sounds like Milarepa to me. But I don't know the story behind it, so he might have had a real reason, but he might have also just been training us. So why did you get mad? Well, it seemed kind of existential. There was no point in the thing.

[42:39]

But then, you know, I think I talked to you about it in Dogasan, and you said, you know, close it like this, and that kind of cleared it up for me because then I could just do. Just do. Huh? Just do. Just do, yeah. Yeah? Well, yes, just do. That's our training, actually, just do. I remember Suzuki Roshi talking about washing the windows and brushing your teeth. You get up in the morning, you brush your teeth. You don't brush your teeth to get them clean. You simply brush your teeth to brush your teeth. You simply drink water to drink water. You simply wash the window to wash the window. Not because it's dirty. The window is always clean. If you take that literally, you have a problem. Water is always pure.

[43:46]

It's true. Water is always pure. When it's impure. Even when it's impure, it's pure. Because it's not the water that's impure, it's what's in the water that's impure. Water is everywhere. Q. You had said, as I heard you, that we practice within the ocean. So it serves a function. Yeah, delusion is important. So in that same spirit, this question of what is training, what is balanced relationship, could you connect the dots in terms of the bodhisattva vow? Because I feel like that's the juice, that's the fuel that, you know, in the midst of adversity,

[44:48]

anchors, but sometimes it naturally arises and sometimes it has to be brought in. Well, you know, the four vows are the counterpart of the four truths. Beings are numberless. I vow to, whatever, save them? Awaken with them? Or whatever. according to the Four Noble Truths, beings are, life is difficult for everybody. That's one way. Life is difficult because we all suffer in one way or another, right? And it's, there's always something that makes us unhappy, even when we're happy. So, and that's the answer.

[45:50]

I mean, that's the response. Beings are subject to suffering. I vow to help them. My reason for being alive is to help them, right? Even though I don't know what to do. So, and the second truth is, the reason is because of desire. We say delusions, but strictly speaking, it's desires. And then the second truth, the second vow is, being so numberless, I vow to say, desires or delusions are I vow to do something about that. I don't know what it is.

[46:52]

And then, so the first two are the problem. The second two are the response to the problem. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them all. Even though the gate is endless, the gates are endless actually. You can actually enter the gate anywhere. You can enter the gate of nirvana any place at any time, but we keep walking past the gate. Where's the gate? Where's the gate? That's why we said zazen. Where's the gate? Where's the gate? Well, it's right here, if you just stop everything and let go. And the fourth is the path, you know, like the stereotype is the eightfold path, or it could be the six paramitas, or it could be zazen, or it could be whatever the path is.

[48:01]

So that's the response to the four vows, the response to the four truths. So if you study that, that will help you to understand A question? What's the point of life? Well, that's one way that somebody put words in his mouth, yeah. I mean, we have to understand that. But, you know, he said many things.

[49:06]

Sometimes he didn't say anything, right? And there are stories about certain Zen masters who get up on the podium and, Don't, boom, like, get down and go away. That's my talk, right? So sometimes someone would ask a question of Buddha and he wouldn't say anything, according to the history. Very similar, actually. It's like, it leaves you without anything to hold onto. And then you have to do something. It's beyond all talk, it's beyond, you know, talk is great, study is great, but, and various activities are great, but just leaving you with nothing is the greatest. Because it's the most difficult, and it's the most true.

[50:11]

Well, it's like you said yesterday, Sudhikar, she said you have to find your own way. Yes, you have to find your own way, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't have companions and mentors. You should have a mentor. It's great to have a mentor, and it's great to have companions, and you should find your own way. That's really important. Just wandering around, finding your own way, very difficult, you know. So we help each other to find our own way. So the whole Sangha helps each person to find their own way. That's interactive, that's the one and the many. You know, one and many is, all of Suzuki Roshi's talks are about the one and the many.

[51:11]

It's all about expressing the Heart Sutra. expressing the Sandokai, expressing the Hokyo Zamai, one and many. That's what it's all about. And all our questions are based on that, even though we don't know it. All the responses are based on that. Otherwise, it's just dualistic stuff, just talk. And what makes it difficult is that it's hard to walk the line between oneness and duality, even though they're the same thing. I didn't turn my paper over. But anyway, good conversation. Thank you.

[51:59]

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