I'm very glad to introduce our speaker, Karen Sundheim. And she has been practicing here almost 40 years, since 1976. She was Shiseo in 2006. She's been Tenzo. She's been Sashin Director. And a lot of her practice is where she is employed, at the San Francisco Public Library. So she's married to Nancy Sue, and she is a very wonderful lady, and I'm very glad that we get to hear her. Thank you, Karen. Thank you. Can everyone hear me? I'm gonna start off by reading something. This is from the book Returning to Silence by Kadagiri Roshi.

[01:03]

The main purpose of Buddhism is to form the habit of practice as a vow forever. This is just taking a journey in the universe, day by day, step by step. It is like walking in a mist. We don't know what the mist is, We don't know where we are walking or why. All we have to do is just walk. This is Buddhist practice. Actually, the first sentence of that paragraph is, actually an earlier paragraph in that chapter says, attaining enlightenment is not the main purpose of practicing Buddhism. That puts it in the conceptual world of before and after. So the main purpose of Buddhism is to form the habit of practice as vow forever.

[02:08]

We take a lot of vows in our practice here. In fact, we just took a vow a minute ago. The chant right before the speaker speaks is that we vow to listen to the words. So we vow, many times we vow in the morning when we sit Zazen and we put on our robes or our rakasu or we have just, if we don't have a robe or a rakasu, we have taken a vow as we practice Zazen. Zazen is a vow. When we have meals, we take vows. And you'll see, I don't know if anyone's new here today, but after the talk, we take vows again. And those vows, as many of you know, are to save all beings, to practice amidst delusion and the suffering in which we all live.

[03:19]

And I think a lot about this because of my work. I lead a very busy life of a civil servant at San Francisco Public Library. I'm a librarian. I have very rigid, long hours. And when you include commuting into the city every day, it's a really long day. So that's where a lot of my practice takes place. and I work in the Tenderloin. Some of you may know exactly where I work and some don't, but working in the Civic Center area, it's a seven floor building and it's full of people who have nowhere else to go. Certainly we operate as kind of the traditional library that you think of where you go borrow books But a lot of the people who borrow books, they put holds on online late at night after they read the book review from the newspaper or something like that.

[04:31]

And they come in and out and they pick up their books and they leave. They don't do as much research as you might think or that they did in the old days, really working It's really administering to people who have nowhere else to go. That is really what I do most of the time. So, for me, taking a Bodhisattva vow is something that I do every day. So, in Zen, we As practitioners, we take vows to live the life of a bodhisattva. And what that means is that we vow to help others. We vow to awaken others. But for me, being a bodhisattva is often smiling at someone who hasn't had any communication all day long.

[05:41]

or helping someone learn to use the computer, listening to someone's story. And a lot of the people are very poor, unemployed, often have serious either mental health issues or substance abuse or both. But I want to talk a little bit about the Bodhisattva vow. Traditionally, in the old view, you know, Buddhists wanted to get off of this wheel of life and enter nirvana. And that's kind of a That's kind of an old way of talking about it. We don't talk about it that way anymore.

[06:43]

The path of the Bodhisattva is to continue to live in this world until all beings are freed from suffering. And the key word to me in this is the word this. We are committed to living in this world. When we practice the Buddha way, we agree to live by vow rather than by karma. And what I mean by that is karma is what we do when we're motivated by greed, aversion, delusion. And when we practice by vow, we practice non-greed, non-aversion. So when we're sitting zazen, we work with our minds to come back each moment, and that means letting go often of thoughts that involve uncontrollable desires or hate or fantasies.

[07:59]

Now, We also, before we take vows, we practice something called repentance. I never liked that word because, you know, it kind of rings of old judgmental religious beliefs, you know, that one is a bad person and that you have to flagellate yourself in order to really practice. However, what I have learned understood and I just want to mention the other book that I consult often about the life of vow is living by vow by Shohaku Okamura Roshi He comes here about once a year and does a teaching and what one thing that he says is Repentance really means realizing one's own incompleteness.

[09:11]

And it's the origin of Shakyamuni Buddha, his original search for the way, the search to find an answer to suffering, how to live amid suffering. So, Repentance is really an acknowledgement that we aren't perfect, that we mess up all the time, that we cause trouble, that despite our vows, we continually make mistakes. Vow and repentance are two sides of the same coin. And I had some trouble with this Mostly because I always thought bodhisattvas had to be better people than I thought I was.

[10:16]

We don't need to compare ourselves to an ideal of a bodhisattva as a perfect person. As bodhisattvas, we live in this world of suffering and we continue to suffer with everyone else. Now, I often think of how my life was saved by some particular people who I consider, I've thought of them as my personal bodhisattvas. And when I was very young, I was kind of a troublemaker. I went to school and I was repeatedly punished for bad behavior. And I'm not, some of it was playful, but some of it was mean.

[11:38]

So I could be really mean to other kids. You know, this is when I was like eight or nine. You know, I liked picking on people. And I got a bad reputation. And teachers just loved to throw me out in the hall and send me to the principal's office and all that kind of stuff. But when I, became, when I was 10 years old and I went into fifth grade, I got a different kind of teacher. And she used to, this was 1965, and she used to sit at the front of the class with this guitar and sing Joan Baez songs. Okay, so 1965, the civil rights movement is heating up, the anti-war in Vietnam movement is heating up. My parents had the distinction of being the only Jewish Republicans in our community.

[12:39]

So they were actually very conservative and not in favor of all this kind of anti-war stuff. But she took a liking to me. And rather than throw me out of the room, she put me as the on center stage so I could carry on in front of everyone. And I became the class comic. So my life completely changed at that point because she liked me. And my I went from someone who was very unhappy to a much happier person because of the kindness of this one woman. So over the years, okay, you know, fifth grade went by, went to, you know, junior high school and of course lost contact and all that.

[13:51]

But I've always talked about her as being, you know, my bodhisattva. And I've looked for her for quite a few years, looking on the internet, asking the few people I knew from high school or elementary school who I was able to contact. So about six months ago, I found her on Facebook. And I sent her this message saying, were you my fifth grade teacher? And now she's living in Texas. This started in Philadelphia. Now she's living in Texas. And she says, oh, this is great. Let's be Facebook friends. And I tell her all she meant to me, you know, that if it wasn't for you, I don't know what would have happened to my life. And she was really happy to hear that. And we had a couple of messages, because I kept talking about the Joan Baez songs and how much that uplifted me and all that.

[15:03]

And she says, I just have to warn you, I hate Obama. And I thought, whatever. So we become friends on Facebook. And all of a sudden, I'm seeing these posts of extreme right-wing political views. Not the kind that you might read in an editorial where someone actually has an argument that has some logic to it. This was pretty hateful. There was the subject of Israel, which is always controversial, but, you know, very much hating Palestinians, which upset me greatly.

[16:06]

Then there was an issue about guns, you know, I put up something and I don't I don't rant or put up heavy political stuff, I'm just not really into that on Facebook, but I had said something about there being too many guns everywhere. She blasted off at me on Facebook, and it went on for a week about how we needed to have guns to protect us from immigrants who were gonna shoot everybody. So anyway, I won't go into all the details, but every time I went on Facebook, I was afraid I had to duck because this stuff was coming pretty relentlessly, and a couple people who were close to me said, well, you know, why don't you block her? But I couldn't because I felt, number one, I don't... I feel I need to at least know how other people think, and not put up this huge wall.

[17:10]

I just did not want to do it. And second of all, I felt indebted to her anyway, because my life is still better because of her. So... I... Things continued. I tended to click like on Jewish Voice for Peace and stuff like that, which a lot of people don't like. And then I hadn't heard from her in a while, so I decided to look on her Facebook page and I found out I had been blocked. So anyway, my bodhisattva threw me out. But it brings me back to this whole point.

[18:17]

I mean the way I understand it is, you know, bodhisattvas aren't perfect beings. She did one good thing and she probably did a lot of good things. And I don't know what happened over her life where it sounded like it became full of fear or something like that because she's, you know, carrying on the tea party line. But I still feel indebted, and I still have received the benefits anyway. She couldn't change what she did to me in fifth grade, even though whatever she is now, I don't know. I also think of something that, in this book, about our meal chats.

[19:35]

When we have formal meals in the zendo, we chat. Probably not everyone here has been through formal meals, but there's a part where we unwrap our bowls and we lay them out in front of us in the zendo before we receive our food. We are served our food by a member of the Sangha who comes around with a bowl. We raise our bowl and we are served. We have a particular four-line chant, but this is another version of it that just illustrates the point. Now we set out Buddha's bowls. May we, with all living beings, realize the emptiness of the three wheels, giver, receiver, and gift. We vow to save all beings, but the ocean of suffering is immense.

[21:01]

One thing that Okumura Roshi says that vowing to save all beings is like our practice and study are like trying to empty the ocean with a spoon, one spoonful at a time. So it's kind of an endless thing. We talk about how our practice is endless. Our karma of past greed, hate, and delusion is beginningless and endless. What time is it? It's about... 13 minutes to 11. So you have... You can talk more or whatever.

[22:09]

15 minutes. Yeah, 15 minutes or so. Well, maybe someone has a comment or a question. Dean? Can you read the voice out of the mouth, please? Did I... Is this something I just read or something... Or the one we are going to say after? Thank you. You'll hear it, but beings are numberless. I vow to awaken with them. The old version was, I vow to save them. But I think we say, beings are numberless. I vow to awaken with them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable.

[23:10]

I vow to become it. So we say this every day after lecture. But every morning in the zendo after the road, at the end of the road chant, we vow to save all beings. So we do this every day in many ways. Yes. I'm just thinking about the concept of vocation or calling and how that's different than karma, and if one is on a path to discover what one's calling is, or what one's talent is, or whatever, then that sort of like keeps the job of being a bodhisattva, saving all beings from seemingly like really impossible what teaspoon you're going to use to empty that ocean.

[24:18]

Do you think there really is such a thing as a vocation or a calling? Well, I think we have that choice to do that whatever we're doing. So whether you have a vocation that feels like a calling or if you feel like you're doing grunt work, I think you have that option to do it by vow. Now vow, when we practice by vow, we're dropping our self-centered focus. So we can do that in every action. The other night at the library, I was working late, and the same people are there usually, and a lot of them want company. Actually, I was at work trying to compose this talk, because it's quiet.

[25:22]

I have to say that I didn't really want to chat about... I didn't really want to keep somebody company. I mean, that's my karma. You know, I really had a... You know, I was at work, I was supposed to be helping people in addition to the fact that it's a vow to help people. So I had to really, you know... consciously let go of what I really wanted to do in that moment and help someone else. I mean, I think some people are brought into professions, you know, that require a lot of helping other people and there's an obvious opportunity there. I guess your vocation is to be a librarian in a civic center. Well, I feel very fortunate, even though the job is extremely stressful, I feel lucky every day that I do have an obvious opportunity to make someone's life a little bit better.

[26:33]

I saw a hand up. Yes? I was wondering how you feel like you're Well, you use the word will, and that's a factor, but there's also acceptance of oneself. So all the time we run into our imperfections, which we have to recognize and have compassion for.

[27:41]

So will is kind of like setting oneself back on track without self-criticism or harshness. Is that... I'm not sure if I'm responding to your question, though. No, I think so. Thank you. Okay. Peter? Well, Karen, thank you for your talk. And as one of those people that reserves his books online, runs into the library to pick them up, I, on occasion, I use the restroom in the library. Yes, our most popular resource. And it's like another world. And every time I do that, I think about you. Thank you.

[28:48]

And I wonder. avid reader using the library, what sort of extra training were doing the librarians receive any kind of extra social work type training to prepare them for what you describe as one of their primary tasks? Well, actually, in the past few years, they've taken that much more seriously. And we have probably three trainings a year from the public health department, learning about certain kinds of mental health issues, you know, schizophrenia, bipolar, OCD, because there are a lot of people who are really debilitated from these things in the library. And it can be mistaken for something else.

[29:51]

So we do have trainings. Certain things are kind of hard to get used to. For example, the all-pervasive smells. And that's all over the building because a lot of people haven't showered in weeks. That really, you know, that's a tough one. Some people know this, but I did start a meditation group at the library, and it's every Wednesday at noon. And it's quite well attended, and it has helped me to have a more benevolent attitude and to really see people as all part of the sangha. So some days I walk out there, and I think, you know, I see the same people with their huge pieces of luggage and clothes on the floor, and I think, oh, that's my family. So it does, you just kind of adjust to whatever is present.

[30:57]

Jake? Thank you, Karen. I'm wondering when you first contacted your former fifth grade teacher, if you asked her what was it that you saw in me to treat me in this different way from other teachers. Not seeing you as the bad kid. I didn't ask her that directly. She said that I was a lot of fun. And funny. Now I have to say that she was clearly different and I could see it from the other teachers because they were very stern. They were kind of You know, they like to punish people, they never laughed. This woman laughed all the time, which put me at ease. So, that's as far as I got in that conversation with her. Megan, you had your hand up. think about the degree to which our surroundings influence us.

[32:16]

And she's where she's never hearing anything. Plus, I'm surmising, but I mean, a lot of the newspapers, the radio, and what she's getting is reinforcing a kind of way that we're fortunate not to have. I have a cousin who came from Georgia very conservative when she arrived in New York, lived in New York for 40 years. Now she's gone back to New Orleans to live. Every time I see her, she's getting more right wing in her opinions because that's what she is all the time. So I feel like I kind of have to hang out with people that help me along my way. Yeah, I think that's true. You know, I had said she had gone really right-wing. Well, my parents, who had been really right-wing, went the other direction.

[33:18]

So at least, you know. Andrew, did you have a question? Yeah, Karen, thank you very much. I love hearing the stories out of your life, and I see how deep they are to mine. So you raise questions for me in your stories that I'm going to lay out and see what you do with it. You said that your fifth grade teacher liked you, that that's kind of a connection. And I wondered if bodhisattvas operate out of liking. What makes a bodhisattva a bodhisattva if we, when we think about it, are coming out of a vow? I see your point. And somehow that's also connected with the phrase you threw out, but I would have loved to hear you open it a little bit more about the emptiness of what transpires in an act like that, that we're always doing with each other.

[34:21]

Do you want to put those together in some way? I used the word that she liked me, but I really think what I meant was she saw what was good in me. So it wasn't so much really that she preferred me over other people. She tended to see what was good in a lot of people. So I wasn't teacher's pet or anything like that. She saw what was good in people. About the emptiness of the giver, gift and receiver. Traditionally, when we are having, when we are receiving meals in the zendo, we see something go into our bowl, but it's not exactly what we think it is. We may see rice going into our bowl.

[35:23]

But really, it's soil, it's rain, it's people who've worked, planted the seeds, people who've gathered the seeds. So, when we talk, when I refer to emptiness, and I think this is one way of interpreting the Buddhist term, is that it's not a solid conceptual thing. That it's really, many things in motion at all, you know, going on and on. Now, when I think about her, I had kind of a solidified idea of who she was. I thought she was still my hero. You know, here I am, I'm gonna be 60 soon. She was still my hero, you know? And then, look what happened. You know, she basically kicked me out because I didn't agree with her.

[36:25]

So I could get into being critical about that, but it just shows that people are continually in change. And I also, I think I made this point, but I still receive the gift. There's something about the giving and the gift that's neutral. It comes out of her seeing and her vocation or whatever or her personality as a teacher to respond to what helps and she just did it. Irregardless of your political views, or where you came from, or her political views, she just came from that place. And it was really completely human.

[37:31]

Thank you for the question. Linda? Yeah. As always, I enjoy your talks very much. Please write that book. I just wanted to comment on the statement you made about karma somewhere in the middle of the talk. I think you said that karma is where we act out of greed, hate, and delusion. And I just think that's not quite accurate, not quite useful enough, because actually it means all of our actions. When they come out of greed, hate, and delusion, or they come out of love, and so on. And the way I like to think about karma, the sort of gripping, enslaving way that we often think of it is that it's repetitive.

[38:35]

It has a tendency to repeat itself no matter what, so we're not free. But something like vow that you were talking to us today, every tradition has a way to get free of that inexorable, cyclical, self-repeating karma. And one of the ways is what you were talking about today, that vow. So anyway, that's my big election. Now I think that is a good point. When we chant, we refer to karma as greed, hate, and delusion, but really, it's far, much more than that. All my ancient, twisted, tangled karma born of greed. So we're talking about that side, that way kind of karma. But we also have karma, you know, it's California good karma, bad karma. We also have good, you know, stuff that comes out of moments like your fifth grade teacher. That was good karma.

[39:36]

But even that is not freedom. So vow gives us to freedom. Also, we in California tend to think we're really good people. And I think that can be problematic. So, anyway, what is the time situation? It's five after. Is this when we stop? You could take maybe another question. I wanted to ask you, in the night time you're at the library and it sounds like the regulars are there and you're working on your talk, do you think, or whatever you're doing, like you're at a table or a desk or whatever, do you think that that is a kind of intimacy and a teaching as well, like being able to be in company

[40:40]

or moving around, but also modeling how to tolerate that maybe? Yes. I think that's a huge part of it. Just being gracious and calm and pleasant. I mean, a lot of these people spend all their time being shooed away. I'm sure it makes a huge difference. Isn't it a bodhisattva act to provide that kind of nurturing sangha, really? I think it is, you know, and there's some people who have nothing. What they do is they come up, they want a Kleenex, they want a pencil, they want a paperclip. You know, they don't have anything, and so it's really helpful just to be real friendly and say, of course, you know, and just have some interaction. You know, Sojin, I wanted to ask you a few, wanted to add or comment on anything?

[41:47]

I'm going to be around for tea afterward. I do have to go back to work. But I am going to have a cup of tea back there. So I'd love to talk to you. I see some new people here today who I think are new. I could be wrong. Would you mind a quick comment? Yes. My original training is as a town planner, and it just struck me the last time I was in the public library, it reminded me, it seemed very institutional, almost like a penitentiary, just in the design, but that it is very much a safe space for people. Contrarily, I try not to travel, but the last decade ago when I traveled, I recalled that at least two major cities had showers, facilities for international travelers, and that's kind of an icon. The other thing about safe space is I wonder, if you happen to be in Texas next time, would you consider, if you were in your old teacher's town, to call her up for a cup of coffee? Because Facebook, which I'm not on, is not really a real space.

[42:59]

I've never been to Texas. She lives outside of Houston, I don't know. I'd have to think about that. I feel some trepidation given the harshness. I think it's a great idea. Virtual spaces are not really very indicative of real human interactions. Yes, that's true. I don't know. It would be interesting if that happened. Anyway, thank you all for listening to me today and for coming, and I'll see you just outside.

[43:42]

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