Good morning. So, as many of you know, our practice period here at the Roku Zen Center is cooking along, day by day, week by week, and we are supported in this practice by Soken Roshi and also John has set aside this time from his life in the wilds of Oregon to be down here for this practice period, and really sitting very strongly. And today, we have the opportunity to hear his second Saturday lecture. So we look forward to hearing the talk. Morning. Morning. Everybody hear me okay back there? A little up.

[01:00]

A little up. Okay. How's that? Is that good enough? Everybody here? Yes. Okay. So, you know, sort of preparing for this talk and thinking about it, I all of a sudden had this awareness that this is the fourth, end of the fourth I was really kind of surprised because it seems as if it had just started and at the same time it seems as if it's just been going on for a long long time and I've been down here not for four weeks but I've been down here for goodness knows whatever back when I used to live here and it just feels like this One of the things that I really have been appreciating is just how much I kind of feel, kind of support everyone here, and that we're all flowing along together, holding each other up.

[02:10]

And so it's been a really wonderful feeling. And I feel as if there's another the newborn, and Joshua, the line is like tossing a ball into a rapidly flowing river. And I feel that's kind of how this practice period has been going. So thank you all for being here. And I also wanted to sort of add a word of appreciation for Hoseon. and filled in a little bit more about who Joshu was and his practice. But I also really appreciate his bringing into his talk last week our family style and our practice here in the Suzuki lineage as it's been passed down to us through Sojo

[03:19]

thinking about that family style in terms of the koan that Sojin's given me and in terms of Joshu, where Joshu has this approach that's really just based on ordinary words, everyday activities, as how we express the Dharma, not getting stuck into fancy ideas and direction, and just this, just this, what's in front of us. And another little appreciation that really helped me in terms of thinking about what I wanted to talk about today is last week Stan Dewey asked me a question during Shuso Tea and he said, you know, what's your theme for practice period? And I hadn't thought about it before. And so I thought about it and I realized that the theme that's really kind of been developed

[04:24]

Not difficult, not easy. And it didn't even occur to me when he asked me the question, but that's kind of how I opened my first talk three weeks ago, talking about easy and difficult, simple and not. to use this as kind of the background and maybe the focus of going into this talk about the koan that Sojin has given me to work on in this practice period, which is Joshu, and the real way is not difficult. And so I'm going to start just thinking about just easy and difficult. When I think about these words I associate it with trying to accomplish something, some act, trying to understand something, but there's an idea of accomplishment, there's an idea of something that is being done that is hard to get to, easy to get to.

[05:42]

And, you know, I sort of think about, you know, with myself, there's some things that come easily, some things that don't. And so I have this notion in my head, okay, easy and difficult. And I started thinking about, well, what does that mean in terms of the dharma? What does it mean in terms of our practice? Our practice is not based on gaining So it's really hard to bring in these concepts of easy and difficult into our practice, our everyday practice. So these normal notions just don't seem to hold up too well. So when I look at myself, I look at my constant kind of thinking, ruminating, planning, trying to be in control of circumstances, and I also see when I'm doing that my anxiety, my worries, the confusion,

[07:07]

sticking to things, and kind of all the extraneous machinations of my own mind that make the simplest tasks into the most difficult. And it leaves me continually getting tangled up in my own Gordian knot. So looking at Joshu and this koan, Joshu is really trying to help us here. He's trying to help us presenting this line from the Faith and Mind of the Third Ancestor. The great way is not difficult, it merely abhors picking and choosing. In reading through the recorded sayings of Joshu, it's referred to in a lot of ways again and again and again.

[08:36]

So, at one point, I love this a little bit, so I'm going to just sort of quote it. Joshu was saying to his monks, as for the Buddha, I say it's easy. If you say it's easy, rather, it's difficult. If you say it's difficult, it's easy. Where I am, it is easy to see, yet difficult to know about. The third ancestor also in faith in easy, difficult. Things that we think of as two opposites. And the question that I sit with in this is, well, what is it that lies beyond this idea of easy and difficult?

[09:50]

What is it that's beyond our thinking and our concepts that seem to make what were presented as being fundamentally not difficult into something that is quite vexing at times. And as I was thinking about this, another part of faith in mind was coming to my mind and sort of weaving this in because I Excessive talking and thinking turn you from harmony with the way. Cut off talking and thinking, and there is nowhere you cannot penetrate." And this seems to be, well, it feels like it's Joshu's way.

[10:57]

So, what I want to do right now is just, you know, go back into the koan to read it with Engo's introduction and Setsuo's verse, and then start Ingo's introduction goes this way, the universe is too narrow, the sun, moon and stars are all at once darkened. Even if blows from the stick fall like raindrops and the katsu shout sound like thunder, you are still far short of the truth of Buddhism. Even the Buddhas of the three worlds can only nod to themselves and the patriarchs of all ages do not exhaustively demonstrate its profundity. The whole treasury of sutras is inadequate to expound its deep meaning. Even the clearest-eyed monks fail to say themselves. At this point, how do you conduct yourself? Mentioning the name of Buddha is like trudging through the mire.

[12:06]

is to cover your face with shame. Not only those who have long practiced sin, but beginners, too, should exert themselves to attain directly to the secret." I really appreciate the words, how do you conduct yourself? Again, it's a very important feeling that I have about our practice here, our family practice, which is, what are you doing? How are you conducting yourself, moment by moment, whether it's walking into the zendo, whether it's drinking your tea, or washing your dishes, or just simply walking, or meeting each other. How do you conduct yourself? So here's the case.

[13:11]

Joshu spoke to the assembly and said, the real way is not difficult. It only abhors choice and attachment. Joshu then adds his own statement to the quotation of the Third Ancestor. With but a single word, there may arise choice and attachment, or there may arise clarity. This old monk does not have that clarity. So we're kind of thrown with this question. And Joshua is really pointing out that you just can't sort of say, OK, the Great Way is not difficult. What happens when you do something or say something? You can either have choice and attachment, confusion, delusion arising, or clarity, enlightened activity. But this monk doesn't have that clarity.

[14:17]

This old monk doesn't have it. Otherwise it's translated as it doesn't abide in, or it's not within. So this monk is not stuck in clarity. Joshua is someone that monks. And one of the things I mentioned last time when I talked is that Joshu really puts emphasis on really getting stuck with a question and not getting off into analysis, trying to figure it out.

[15:17]

So in the Koan, a monk gets up and asks, if you do not have that clarity, what do you appreciate? And it's like he's trying to kind of catch Joshu perhaps, or maybe he was just confused. But Joshu just replies, I do not know that either. Just leaving him, it's like, you know, we're not going there, I don't know. And it's a kind of a not knowing that Joshu is expressing here, which is not the not knowing of ignorance. But more than not knowing that is most intimate. Knowing that's not about thinking and working out or not being able to think and work out. It's not based on ignorance and just plain stupidity. But a deeper not knowing which is when presented with kind of the way things work.

[16:30]

is that you can't really wrap your head around it, you can't give it an explanation, and you can't really kind of formulate it. So as Ingo talked about in his introduction, all the sutras, expounding by all the ancestors, you can't completely get it. There's something more, something vaster. So, in this case, then the monk, after Djoser said, I don't know that either, the monk said, well, if you don't know, how can you say you do not have that clarity? Again, kind of pushing at the same kind of approach vows and retire.

[17:41]

And again, asking the question is good enough. Joseph can't answer it for him. Joseph can't get him anywhere. That's what the monk has to do. He has to stay with his question and just be with it. You ask the question, work on it. That's your question. So the monk in a way seems as if he's trying to pin down Joshu and use his own words to catch him. And he probably didn't understand Joshu's not knowing, but maybe he did. Maybe he was just trying to be clever. But as I started thinking about this, I really, you know, an appreciation. And what first struck me after I just sort of got off this initial thing, well, you know, the monk just wasn't getting it, you know.

[18:59]

And that was kind of not great. But I realized this monk got up there. I mean, Joshi was not some sort of, you know, the major Zen masters, the Tang dynasty. And this monk had the courage to get up there and to question appreciation for this monk, really kind of putting it out there, just getting up there and exposing himself completely.

[20:01]

And in doing that, could be clarity. This old monk doesn't have that clarity. And do you understand that? And nothing else happened. We wouldn't have, I think, the richness and depth that we have in this dialogue. So I feel a great appreciation for the monk getting up, exposing himself, And that really allowed me to see another way in which joshu, just in a very simple way, can get cut off.

[21:26]

deflate this thinking mind, this discursive thinking that the monk was bringing forth. just sort of analyze this. It's something more. And one of the things that came to mind as I was reading this case again and again are the words in the Jewel-Mirrored Samadhi, that the meaning does not reside in words, but a pivotal moment brings it forth. this, you know, some symbol that I can get at.

[23:10]

So he just uses these simple words, you know, and again and again pointing out that the meaning does not reside in the words. It's something deeper, more vast, beyond. us to look at this in our daily life, every day, what we're doing. So, right now I'd like to talk about, go through Seto's verse, because I really like it. I like it a lot more than I liked Ingo's introduction, to be honest with you. And it catches a really nice direct speech.

[24:12]

And this is really kind of Joshu's specialty. Direct word, direct speech. Not talking about things, but pointing to something. One with many faces, two with one. And not one, not two. Form, emptiness. Far away in the moon sets, beyond the hills, the high mountains, the cold waters." And as I was reading Satcho's verse in this, another line from the Chulmir Whether practices and approaches are mastered or not, reality constantly flows.

[25:14]

Out there, it's just continually circular, even if you don't realize it. The skull has no consciousness, no delight. The dead tree sings in the wind, not yet rotten. The dead tree sings in the wind, not yet rotten. dragon murmurings. And Sosan wrote a verse on this. In the dead tree the dragon murmurs and truly sees the path. When the skull has no consciousness, only then are the eyes clear.

[26:21]

And Dogen, in the Phasical Dragon song, also speaks about this dead tree and the dragon marmarine. But he talks about it in a wonderful kind of way, as he often turns things. He talks about, even though the tree seems withered, and dead, like in winter. In the spring, buds begin to form, new life comes through. And you know, that feeling of like, you know, think of a, again, like a dead tree. It's like, well, okay, it's all finished, but the dogma really turns it around. No, it's just part of this continuous life that you just can't extract you know, life from death, birth from death.

[27:44]

So each year what seems like a dead tree comes back to life. So Setso finishes his verse with, Difficult, difficult. Attachment and clarity watch and penetrate the secret the way through. So coming back to the beginning we started with here is how do we make what seems difficult not difficult? falling through space and time, the way in the autumn and autumn breezes, leaves are just fluttering down and just blowing in the wind.

[28:58]

Just not difficult, but it's also not easy. So I would like to just sort of end at this point and open things up for comments and questions. I'm sorry. What keeps Joshua from getting stuck? He's not carrying out any baggage.

[30:07]

He's not carrying around any baggage. He's not looking for anything. So, what does he think about the absolute and the relative? I don't think he thinks about it. If he does think about it, what does he do? Just let go. Thank you, John. I wonder, to me it seems like an enormous effort that Shusos go through to sit in that head student seat for six weeks.

[31:12]

And does this, do you use this koan to help get you through or let go of getting through or how do you, how does this, how does this koan, how do you work with it? when you're sitting? Actually when I'm sitting I'm not working with it. What gets me through the six weeks is everybody here. It's an extraordinary feeling. And because I think so much, I really have to just sort of focus on just letting go. And in a way, that's how, by practicing letting go, that I can begin to kind of give a sense.

[32:18]

we pick and we choose, and within that, is there a great way? But I thought you just spoke about without picking and choosing. So the great way is not difficult at all if you don't pick and choose. And that's the kind of picking and choosing that's easy, because it's not really picking and choosing. It's just you do it. Thank you. You quoted that the meaning is not in the words. That reminded me of another kind of well-known Zen

[33:30]

passage where the guy says, my talking to you like this is like gouging a wound in healthy flesh. And with those advices in mind, how do you regard the activity of giving a lecture? You know, it requires a lot of thinking and organizing. Organizing? Well, you know, putting it together kind of is that. And it's, we talk about it again and again, you know, it's a pet phrase, but, you know, making a mistake on purpose. Yeah, because it's a... How do I pick and choose words?

[34:49]

You know, you have to get up and you have to say something. And either picking and choosing can arise for clarity. And it's usually a mix. Thank you, Shuso. I wanted to do something. When you're thinking, mind, when you let go, mind. What mind? No mind. How do you know? Joshu seems to be a pretty balanced individual, centered individual.

[36:27]

How does balance relate to letting go, or how does centeredness relate to letting go? In a way, balance is something that you only have when you let go. John, thank you very much for your talk. I really appreciate your sincerity and your sweetness. So Joshu says, the question is enough. So I wonder, over the course of the practice period as you've worked with this koan, how your relationship to the question has changed and how you understand it has changed.

[37:30]

You might start by articulating I'm not sure how to answer. The actual form of the question is less and less the question. The question is, what is the question? So, in What is that question? And then coming to where it could have been any question.

[38:44]

What is the question? So that's the question left with is question. So how do you, what do you get your teeth into then? If there's no particular question that is I mean, it's not the teeth, it's just like it just sits here. And... What's it? Hmm? What's it? Yeah, what's it? What is it? It sits right in here. The question. And there's no answer. So, you quoted part of what Joshu said. He said, to know is difficult.

[39:48]

I believe that's one of the things that you said. You said, such as that, to know is difficult. And so, that implies to me that you can know, but it's difficult. So, what is knowing? It's difficult to know about the Dharma. Just direct experience. What is it? It's not knowledge. It's just a deep experience. This is what it is. When he says, I don't know, it opens everything up. It's an opening to every possibility.

[40:55]

It's not a matter of knowing and not knowing. It's nonsense said to him. It's beyond knowing and not knowing. But then he says to know is difficult, which is the same. To know about it, talking about the dharma of this place, to know about it is difficult.

[41:38]

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