I want to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. Good morning. Good morning. This morning, I want to talk about the shuso. For those people who have been to a practice period before, you know something about what a shuso is. But for those of you who haven't, Shuso is the head monk for the practice period and is usually a priest. Here at Kasahara, the head monk is always a priest. In the city, And I think at Green Gulch, but mostly in the city, we also have a head student, which is similar to a shuso, but is not necessarily a priest.

[01:09]

If the head student is not a priest, then they're called the head student. And if they're a priest, they're called the shuso. And the shuso is at the occasion of the practice period, the shuso becomes the disciple of the abbot for that time. All of you are here as students. We're all here as students at the practice period, but not everyone is a student of the Abbot. While we're at the practice period, we all are students of the Abbot in a certain sense.

[02:14]

not in a formal sense. So this evening, maya, who I think most of you know that maya will be shuso for this practice period. She hasn't been installed yet. That's the 15th. On the 15th we will have a shuso entering ceremony where she will be officially installed as shuso. This evening we will have a precepts ceremony where I will give her the precepts. and a public ceremony where we all attend. And this precept ceremony will establish our relationship for the practice period as a student and teacher.

[03:36]

And after she is installed as a shuso, We should all respect her position as head monk and relate to her in that way. The head monk, the shuso, is a high position in the monastery. But the shuso's work is to turn the compost. And the shuso has an attendant called a benji. And the attendant helps the shuso to turn the compost and clean the toilets, empty the garbage. This is our wonderful training for someone in a high position. Unless we know how to clean the toilets without wincing, how to turn the compost without worrying about high and low, we have no business being in a high position.

[05:09]

we find ourselves in a high position without being able to accept whatever comes to us willingly, sooner or later we'll fail. So we should be careful and be thankful for the training that we receive in which we Just make an effort to find satisfaction in whatever position we're in at any one moment. This is the most important point of training. So that we don't get behind ourselves and we don't get ahead of ourselves. The most difficult thing in this world is just to be where we are.

[06:20]

Anyway, so the shuso sets an example for the practice. The shuso is a tone and example and encourages all of us in our practice. So, But the shusa doesn't necessarily do something special. This is an important point. Without having some special kind of understanding, or without doing some special kind of work, The shuso leads a kind of ordinary life, but sets an example for all of us. So, the shuso has a special relationship to me, and a special relationship to all of you, but it's expressed through ordinary activity.

[07:44]

The shuso will also give tea, serve tea, for people. And if you have something that you'd like to talk over with the shuso, you can do that. Toward the end of the practice period, we have a shuso ceremony. And the shuso ceremony is a very formal question and answer ceremony where you test the shuso's understanding. You can call it dharma combat if you want, but I prefer to call it dharma dialogue. It's not so much of a fight as it is bringing forth the dharma. But you try to really test.

[08:55]

It's not a battle, but a test to see if the shusso can deal with your question and how the shusso deals with your question. But that comes later, and we'll deal with that later on. So in the process, the practice period, everyone gets to know the shuso, and the shuso gets to know everyone. And by the time we have the shuso ceremony, you can express something from your intimacy with the shuso. So I would suggest to find some intimacy with the shuso during this time.

[09:56]

And if you need some help, please go to the shuso for help. There will be times when I won't be here. I'll go back to the city for a few weeks from time to time. And at that time, I would like you to rely on the shuso for guidance. At this practice period we don't have a tanto. Tanto is usually a teacher who has been shuso and has matured practice. But we don't have a tanto at the practice period.

[11:00]

So our shuso will be a kind of shuso with tanto overtones. I have a lot of confidence in her. Don't be afraid to go to her with confidence. And also, during this practice period, I'm going to be giving dharma transmission, doing a dharma transmission ceremony for Norman Fisher.

[12:02]

Some of you know him, some of you don't. So I think I have to talk a little bit about dharma transmission too. We have three stages in our practice for a priest. The first one is ordination. And the second stage is being shuso for the practice period. So shuso is a kind of stage in the career of a priest. And the third stage is dharma transmission, which is to become a priest, full priest. And dharma transmission has not so easy to explain because sometimes we give dharma transmission for different reasons.

[13:06]

Originally, dharma transmission in its highest sense in the olden days was given by a teacher to a disciple who it was felt had exactly the same understanding. Mind to mind, so Dharma transmission is called mind to mind. No difference. Student understands completely the teacher's mind, and it's like water being poured into two vessels. But that's ideally the highest reason for giving Dharma transmission.

[14:16]

But in the course of 1,000 or 2,000 years. It's been done for various other reasons. And so sometimes in Japan, it's just a matter of course as a kind of graduation. But we try not to make it, to water it down that way. We try to keep it on a high level so that it has some meaning. But sometimes we give Dharma transmission to somebody as recognition of their long, steady practice. Maybe an old person. And sometimes we give Dharma transmission to someone who we think will be a very good teacher, who is a disciple. And sometimes we give dharma transmission just to recognize someone's understanding.

[15:23]

But this ceremony of dharma transmission is basically after the fact of dharma transmission. Dharma transmission itself is something that takes place between a student and a teacher, regardless of any ceremony or ritual or recognition. Then after this realization that Dharma transmission is already de facto, then you can have a ceremony which honors this understanding and puts it into the context of the lineage.

[16:43]

So in the lineage of one ancestor to another, it's very important to continue the lineage through dharma transmission. And all of the students who have actual dharma transmission, meaning mind-to-mind understanding, don't necessarily have a ceremony to acknowledge it. There are many of Suzuki Roshi's students who have Suzuki Roshi's actual Dharma transmission. But there was only one student that he had the ceremony with before he died. So it's important for us, I think, to have more, within Zen Center, to have more Dharma Transmission disciples, teachers, so that we're not left with one person.

[17:56]

You know, in Japan, as sometimes happens, a lot of teachers are very reluctant to give Dharma Transmission to their students, and they want to wait and wait and wait until the student really reaches a very high point. And sometimes the teacher starts to die before that happens, or before they feel okay about that. It's like teachers with their parents and children. The parent doesn't think the child is ever going to be ready. So sometimes the teacher does Dharma transmission on their deathbed. There's one part called Minjun in the Dharma Transmission Ceremony, which is just where the student asks very formally for the Dharma Transmission, and the teacher says, OK.

[19:04]

And that's actually a very important point. And in Japan, that's the beginning of the seven days of the ceremony. If that happens, then even if the teacher dies the next day, which often happens, still the student has the Dharma transmission, even though they haven't completed the rest of the ceremony. So it's a very funny business, this Dharma transmission. As you know, Rinzai, Lin Chi, when he gave his Dharma transmission to his head disciple on his deathbed. So I think it's good for us to give Dharma transmission to my feeling, people, students that I've known for a long time that I

[20:17]

feel real affinity with before they get too old, so they have a chance to mature in that position without too much responsibility. Ideally, after a person receives Dharma transmission, it would be nice for them to just go away for ten years. and mature their understanding more. There's no end to maturing our understanding. And if we only give Dharma transmission to old people, kind of like Russia, you know, where the old politburos, a lot of old men with old ideas, So I think that it would be helpful for Zen Center to have priests with Dharma transmission who are not so old and have a chance to settle themselves by the time they take more responsibility.

[21:44]

As I say, a priest with Dharma transmission doesn't have to teach, really. It could be just some recognition. But I think we have good students with good understanding in Zen Center, and I really think that we should help them. So anyway, Norman is coming down on Saturday, I think. And this dharma transmission really is supposed to take three weeks. This ceremony is supposed to take three weeks. And I really wanted just to do the three weeks here at Tassajara, which would be the first time that we do the whole thing in one place. the nature of the circumstances of our lives is that we can't really spend three weeks in one place together doing something like that.

[22:55]

So what we do is we break it up into parts, and we do the first part in the city, and the second part here, and then the third part back in the city. So the first part is where the The dishi is the disciple. They have to draw their dharma transmission lineage papers, and that takes a bit of time. And then they do a lot of bowing and chanting, certain things. So that by the time they come, he comes here this week. This week is the ceremonious part that he does with me. And each day we do something different.

[23:58]

So on the 20th is when we begin. But he'll come down Saturday, and while he's here, he'll be doing jundo around, he'll get up an hour before everyone else. and light incense at all the altars outside and inside and chant and bow. And that takes a bit of time. And also he'll be in the zindo chanting the names of the ancestors and he'll hit the bell. He'll chant the name of one ancestor, hit the bell and bow. And then he'll chant the name of the next ancestor, hit the bell and bow until he goes through all of the names that we chant every day. So that's part of just his, what he will be doing at that time.

[25:04]

And he'll be doing that actually all the way through the whole time that he's here every day. That's just kind of the basic stuff. And then starting on the 20th, each day we have a different part of the ceremony that's between just the teacher and the deshi. It's not the public part. And Reb will come down the 19th and help me do the ceremony. But he'll go back for a couple of days to do Sashina in San Francisco, and then come back again to help me at the end. So during that time, between the 20th and the 27th, my attention will be mostly on doing the Dharma transmission with Norman.

[26:05]

And I don't know how much I'll be available to do other things. I will be, but I can't schedule it. And I'll try to be as available as I can. Sometimes we have three teachers. and sometimes for these three levels, and sometimes the three teachers are all one teacher. But it's most usual for the three not to be one teacher, or for the same teacher not to be a teacher through those three levels. Maya's ordination teacher is Rev, Tenshin Sensei, and I'll be her shuso teacher, and I don't know who her root teacher will be, who will be her dharma transmission teacher.

[27:24]

And Suzuki Roshi was my coordination teacher, and Tatsugami Roshi was my shuso teacher in 1970. That's when we started the dowan ryo and the whole system of our monastic practice. It was a very interesting time. And then Suzuki Roshi's son, Hoitsu, was my Dharma transmission teacher. So I had three different teachers. Baker Roshi had the same teacher, Suzuki Roshi, for all three of his ordinations. So it can be either way. It was interesting when I was here in 1970 as shuso with Tatsugami Roshi.

[28:53]

Suzuki Roshi asked Tatsugami Roshi to come to Tassajara to establish a monastic way. Tassajara started in 67, but we had set up a kind of provisional way, a monastic way. but it didn't have the system that we have now. And so little by little, Tatsagami Roshi introduced the systematic way of monastic practice. There were a lot of people, a lot of different kinds of people at Tassajara at that time and in Zen Center. And in the early 70s, late 60s, it was the time of communes. And a lot of people felt that Tassajara was another commune. And when Tatsakami Roshi came, people said, well, you're just trying to turn this into another Eheji.

[30:03]

And I thought, well, that's great. I wanted to know as much as possible about what he had to teach. But a lot of people thought, We want to commune. And so I kind of divided the communists from the monastics. And it was a very interesting practice period at that time because, you know, when a change is introduced anywhere in this practice, it causes waves. If you change anything, if you change the time of something, if you change the way we do some little thing, somebody's going to feel hurt or depressed or something, insecure. And Tatsagami Roshi changed everything around. I mean, he just radically changed everything.

[31:08]

So it's a wonderful time. He established the system, the Doan system, and taught us how to chant, taught us how to hit the drum, taught us how to hit the bells. We had a lot of trouble establishing the Tenken, because before we had the Tenken, it's just the head student, the Shuso, we did have a Shuso at that time, The shuso would just go out and talk to the people who didn't come to the zendo. And there was a lot of controversy about whether we should actually have a person that does that officially. Somebody that goes and talks to people and gets them to come, you know, questions their non-attendants. And people were going to the kitchen, taking food, going to the walk-in.

[32:20]

In the middle of the night, we have all kinds of stories about people meeting each other in the kitchen, in the walk-in, in the middle of the night. And Tatsugami said, put locks on the doors. So our present system was set up by Tatsugami Roshi, and it's degenerated wonderfully ever since. But I remember a certain quality and sparkle that things had at that time. It's hard to reinstitute that, I think. The chanting was really strong. And the way everybody practiced it, mindfully and with a kind of energy, I haven't seen that since.

[33:20]

Although he had a lot of strange personality quirks, Still, he had a very strong sense of monastic practice. He was the Ino at AHAG for about 10 years. And his chanting voice was, I've never heard anything like it. We have some tapes of his chanting that the Doans sometimes use, but they're really not the same as really hearing him chant. So there was a lot of emphasis at that time on how to do these forms and bring them to life. There was no mechanical way of doing things, no falling into mechanical way of doing things. It was all very full of life.

[34:30]

So I would like us to, like to somehow encourage us to bring these forms to life, to really put yourself into what you're doing. I wonder if you have any questions about what I've been talking about. Does dharma transmission only get into priests? What's that again? Does dharma transmission only get into priests? Yes, because it's a priest's lineage. There's some people bringing up the question, well what about dharma transmission for laypeople? I don't know of dharma transmission for laypeople.

[35:36]

I don't say that it shouldn't be, or it's not something that couldn't be done, but when you have dharma transmission, then it puts you in a position where you can be the head of a, you can be installed as an abbot, you can ordain other people. So if a lay person had dharma transmission, how would they ordain other people? How can you ordain someone if you're not ordained yourself? So it's hard to see that, but I think there should be some kind of recognition. That's our language. What's that again? You mean in our particular language? It may be possible to give a layperson dharma transmission, but then how would you give them a robe if they're not ordained?

[36:56]

So somehow it doesn't follow. There could be a lay transmission, but I don't know exactly what it would be, just our kind of recognition. So dharma transmission kind of goes together with the system. Although, you know, the sixth patriarch was given dharma transmission by the fifth patriarch when he was just a lay person. He was given the Dharma transmission. Then he went away for 20 years. He came back to teach. But when he came back, he was ordained. In what way do you suggest that we find some sense of participation in the Dharma transmission,

[38:05]

or group events where we can express them? Well, there's no participation in the ceremony, but since he's going to be here, I think it would be good if we could get together with him and feel something together. include us all together. I don't want to do something, to take this time to do something secret. This situation is too intimate with everyone. So in some way we do all have to participate. So we have to find out how to do that. Pardon me.

[39:36]

Well, these are not definitions. I think we have to be careful. I think that actually our priesthood is not well defined. And given the nature of the way our practice has developed, which is not quite lay practice, not quite priest practice, and there's meeting in the middle, and yet both are still there. For a long, long time we've left it undefined, and so there's been a kind of leeway or experiment in how we do this. So it's not defined, and so to think that to feel that the ways that that's happened are definitions is a mistake. I think there is a leaning toward making more definition.

[41:15]

There is. But if we look at the ways that that's happened and call those definitions, that would be a mistake. Because I don't know if we want to do things the way we've always done them. I think there have been some mistakes in the way we've done things and we really need to think about it more. What is the layperson? That's why right now I'm very hesitant to ordain people because of We need a little more definitions as to what it means to be a priest. That's what I feel. We need to have more definition before feeling okay about saying to somebody, yes, you can be ordained as a priest.

[42:22]

Lay ordination is an ordination. You have to realize that lay ordination is a kind of ordination and very meaningful. And there should be some recognition for lay teachers, including people's understanding, recognizing understanding of lay people and recognizing what that practice really is. which is a tremendous practice. The other side of priest practice is lay practice. In Pasahara, when we're all together, it's not lay practice. And so the term lay and priest don't make such a big distinction.

[43:35]

Here, we're all monks. We're practicing as monks. All doing exactly the same practice. But some of us are lay people, some of us are priests. So the difference is not so pronounced. But when the lay people go back into lay life and so forth, the priests will still always be priests. Sometimes the lay people will always be practicing as priests. Some lay people will always be practicing as priests, but not all lay people. So my feeling about it, when a priest is ordained as a priest, it means that I have nothing else in this world to do. There's nothing left for me to do, except this.

[44:40]

Would you consider then, someone who's been ordained as a priest, who is, they have a spouse and children, and they have a job, It's sort of interesting now that we've all confused actually. It is, because that would be very, what you're describing would be an advanced practice for a priest. That would not be a novice's training. So to work, to have somebody who is a layperson

[45:50]

who has no real training and then wanting to be ordained and still continue to work and have family, I wouldn't ordain a person like that. There has to be some standards, there has to be some definition. But someone, most of the teachers in Zen Center have families, right? I have a family, but my family is part of my practice. And It does not keep me from being at Asahara, sitting Zazen every day, teaching Buddhism. But it limits my activity with my family, so that my family has to concede a lot, or consider my activity as their family life, to a large extent.

[46:53]

It's difficult. It's difficult to be married and be a priest. It's very hard. I don't suggest it. I don't recommend it to anyone. I think Okasan pointed out to one of the brides at a city ceremony, it's difficult to be married to a priest. And a priest, maybe. Oh, yeah. It's very difficult to be married to a priest, as well as... Right. Maybe one of the hardest things. Well, I've been thinking of one of the ways of seeing the word definition is something that has very clear, sharp edges to a boundary. And what David brought up is one of the reasons why we don't have that feeling of clear edges. The reason why we don't have clear edges is because Zuki Roshi was married and the tradition that he comes out of is a temple tradition where priests, after they go to the monastery, come back to their home temples and become the priests of the home temple.

[48:16]

which takes care of a lot of people and so they lead a kind of lay priest life in the temple. That's the system in Japan. The young priest, the young men who are going to be priests go to the monastery for three years or one year or two years or four years and then they get their training and then they come back and they help the father or whoever it is at the temple, the teacher at the temple, and taking care of the home temple. They don't sit zazen much anymore, but they become kind of parish priests. And that's the tradition that Suzuki Roshi came out of, except that he wasn't satisfied with just being a parish priest. And he really wanted to introduce zazen to everybody.

[49:20]

So we have a kind of mixed definition of what our practice is. And he welcomed everybody. And he didn't make a lot of distinctions, and he didn't start ordaining people for a long time. So in the beginning, we had a wonderful lay practice for everybody. And then he started to ordain people, and then that was still okay. And then after he died, Baker Roshi started eating a lot of people and made a big distinction between priests and lay people and made the priest ideal dominant. And so the thing kind of shifted, the whole balance shifted. And now, you know, it's a little strange. But So we have all these elements that are part of our practice. Nothing's really rejected.

[50:22]

And to try and sort out definitions is difficult. And to really make lay practice be strong and meaningful is important, very important. Myself, in Berkeley, For 20 years, I just worked trying to make a lay practice for people. Because I was the only priest for a long 20 years. And I was very much interested in lay practice and promoting it. So I have a very strong feeling about lay practice. But I think that both lay practice and priest practice are okay, should be. But how to make them work together, is what we're still groping around with. Do you study something about the distinction between lay practice and Buddhist practice?

[51:30]

No, I don't find a statement about the distinction. As I said, when we're here in the monastery, we're all practicing the same. This is monk's practice. I think that, I see again, you know, in order to make a distinction, we have to define what priest practice is. So I can't make a distinction because it's not defined. It can be a lot of different things. Sometimes priest practice looks like lay practice. But if you're a priest and you're practicing, and your practice looks like lay practice, it should still be priest practice. You have to know how to practice in the world as a priest anonymously. That's important. That's the mature stage of practice, I feel, is to be able to just practice in the world with everybody without being noticeable as a priest.

[52:38]

If you're a priest, you should be able to do that. So that's why I'm not so interested in definitions so much. I think a priest is a priest from the inside out. The priest is behind the eyes. And whether a priest is wearing robes, or has a family, or is in the monastery, you should always feel that it's whatever you're doing, that's priest's practice, and you don't forget that. It has to do with roles, but it also has to do not with roles. We have to also be able to forget our roles, and just be ordinary persons. So my feeling about a priest is that a priest should be like Avalokiteśvara. When whatever is needed, you respond to.

[53:49]

And you change colors, and you change clothes, and you change positions, and you just transform according to circumstances without any hindrance. To me, that's a real priest. And also a layperson. So when priests and laypeople act that way, they are Bodhisattvas. So a priest acts as a priest from knowing, from the inside knowing, I am a priest. That's all. And sometimes it's putting on robes and giving lectures. Sometimes it's changing diapers. VINCENZO!

[55:15]

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