Good morning. It's a glorious spring day. So I appreciate that you're all willing to come inside and listen to the Dharma. I'd like to welcome Sojourn Roshi back. You're just back from Sishin, right? Sishin in Tassajara and there were a number of other people in the Sangha who were It was the 50th anniversary session of the incorporation of Zen Center. And Brad Anderson and I did it together, led it together. So it was becoming together the two streams of Suzuki Rishis transmission. That's great. Could you hear that? I think he said it was the coming together of two streams of Suzuki Roshi's tradition, Sojin Roshi and Tenshin Roshi, on the 50th anniversary of Sin Center's incorporation.

[01:13]

So, an auspicious occasion, which I could have seen Sojin and Tenshin co-leading. So, the other thing by way of preface is just to remind you that next Saturday we are beginning our spring practice period which I believe is the 24th practice period that we've had here at Berkeley Zen Center and there'll be a one-day sitting on Saturday and there's information on the bulletin board and you're encouraged to sign up and you're encouraged to take part in the practice period, which then unfolds for the following six weeks. And Sojin Roshi will be leading this, and our shuso, our head student, is Marie Hopper. There she is.

[02:17]

She's not raising her hand too high. But she will be sitting in that front seat where Ross is sitting, facing out. being an example of practice for all of us for the practice period. So again, you're invited to really participate and join in a big six-week party. Well today, we just had Bodhisattva ceremony and we recited the precepts, we took them in, And I wanted to talk about one area of the precepts, essentially communication. But I've also been thinking about the overall meaning and essence of the precepts. And this goes to the area of speech and communication as well.

[03:22]

It's a wonderful little book that Robert Akinroshi wrote maybe about 10 or 15 years ago called Zen Master Raven. Has anyone read that? It's kind of told in the voice of sort of totemic animals. So the raven, the bear, the owl, the snake, and they're little sort of capsules of dharma but told as very short fables. And one of the fables, Owl says, what are right views? And Brown Bear said, we're in it together and we don't have much time. I think this is the message of the precepts.

[04:27]

If you think about the precepts, not killing, not stealing, not misusing sexuality, not lying, and so on, what you realize is that these precepts are about our relationships. They're completely about how we relate to each other. One of the teachers that I feel very close to, a Japanese teacher, Shodo Harada Roshi, once said to me, we were talking about the precepts, and he said, well, if there were no other beings, there would be no precepts. There'd be no need for the precepts. there would be nothing to relate to. You'd be like, I imagine this to be like one of those B-level science fiction movies from the 1950s where your brain was actually in a bottle on the shelf and it was just kind of bubbling, it was oxygenating, but there was no relationship.

[05:49]

Fortunately and unfortunately we have bodies and those bodies relate to each other. We're filling up the room now. Those bodies turn towards the wall and practice in relationship to ourself. We live in relationship to the sky and the ground the wind that you can hear rustling through the curtains, the bird that you can hear chattering outside, all of this we're in relationship to. So the utility of the precepts is to guide us in our relationships, to give us some tools for looking at ourselves and looking at our conduct with each other and what's interesting in the system of precepts that we recite the bodhisattva precepts the precept of speech is so complex that it's

[07:17]

broken out into several several precepts that are pointing at very specific places where we can get ourselves tangled where instead of connecting with each other we're divided from each other because of those actions being the actions of speech in this case. In fact, you can think of all of Buddhism as a teaching about relationship. The non-separation of relationship between self and others and between self and self.

[08:19]

As Dogen says about giving, we give ourselves to ourselves and we give others to others. It's a little mysterious how we do this, but there's not a distinction. And yet, as soon as we speak, there is the possibility of inside and outside. I once, I remember hearing, I was driving with Lori and we were listening to the radio and there was a woman was talking about early childhood and the unconditional love that a mother feels for a child. And the person was in an interview, and the person said, well, does that change at some point?

[09:21]

And the woman who was explaining this said, yeah, it changes as soon as the child learns their first word, which is often no. It's very easy to merge with beings if they can't speak, and particularly if they can't indicate, no. If they're always saying yes, which of course, as good Zen students, that's what we're supposed to do, always say yes. But we fail. We're not good Zen students, or at least some of us aren't. I'm not. But these precepts give us some tools for how to work on this. So we recited these a few minutes back. The fourth precept is, I vow to refrain from false speech.

[10:28]

And it's interesting. The way we do it is we all read this precept together and then the doshi recites commentary by Dogen. In this case the commentary is, the Dharma wheel turns from the beginning. There is neither surplus nor lack. The sweet dew saturates all and harvests the truth. There's another set of commentaries which comes from Bodhidharma and I'll read you those So, I vow to refrain from false speech. Bodhidharma says, self-nature is subtle and mysterious. In the realm of the inexplicable Dharma, not speaking a single word is called the precept of not lying. As soon as you say a single word, you're veering into, at least veering into the possibility of untruths.

[11:52]

And I'll come back to that. These are pretty good. So the second precept that we recite in relation to speech is the sixth, which is, I vow not to slander. I vow not to use malicious speech or harsh speech. And Bodhidharma's commentary says, self-nature is subtle and mysterious. In the realm of the flawless Dharma, not expounding upon error is called the precept of not speaking of the faults of others or not slandering. He didn't say there's no error which you can see if you were coming from some position of say the absolute you might say well there's no error so how could you speak of it?

[12:59]

He's not saying that, he's saying don't expound upon an error even though I might see something that is mistaken in my own activity or in someone else's activity not to speak of it This is very interesting. There's also... I was studying a few years ago the Talmudic commentary, Torah commentary on right speech or on wrong speech actually. It's called Lushan Hara, I think. Does anyone... Is that right? Lushan Hara. Yeah. That means... It means staying evil. Right. And if we think the way it's broken down in the commentary is it's microscopic the kinds of things that you don't speak of even if you know them to be true even if you know that they'll make a difference if it's the whole essence of it and that's the essence of these precepts well is

[14:13]

Do you want, well, as our friend Karen Dakotis was here yesterday, a long time practitioner here, and she once said to Lori, do you want to be right or do you want to be in connection? And the whole thrust of this Talmudic commentary is about being in connection. with the notion of right or righteousness as being something that at least potentially divides us. We'll come back to that. The third precept is the vow not to praise oneself at the expense of others. In other words, not to elevate oneself above others.

[15:20]

And Bodhidharma's commentary here is very clear. Self-nature is subtle and mysterious in the realm of the equitable dharma. So right there is an interesting word, the equitable dharma, which is the dharma in which there is no in which all things are equal in which there is no valuing one person above another so in the realm of the equitable dharma not dwelling upon I against you is called the precept of not praising self at the expense of others so Yeah, I'm sorry for this hum, I don't know what it is. So the precept of, well the practice of not dwelling upon I against you is akin to what Eken Roshi was saying is we're in it together.

[16:39]

we are all creating this world. Can you still hear? Yeah, no. Welcome to the electronic age. So, these are the precepts in speech. In the Buddhist teaching, he also, he gave some guidelines for, within this, he gave some guidelines that, when do I speak? What are the conditions for speech? And they're quite interesting. There are five of them. And they're laid out in the earliest of the Pali suttas, the early Buddhist suttas.

[17:41]

So these are the guidelines and I have found them to be pretty useful. I don't always follow them but when I can stop and think about it they can make a difference. Is this the moment to say something to someone? Perhaps the question comes up, if I see a mistake, say in the zendo, do I say it in front of everybody? Is that the right time? Sometimes that's the right time. Or do I step aside with the person afterwards and address them privately, that might be the right time. The second one is, do I speak in truth or not?

[18:48]

I'm going to come back to all of these. So, the admonition is to speak truth, not to speak falsely. The third one is, is my speech gentle and kind. Well, gentle. Or is it harsh? The fourth one is, am I speaking in a way that is going to be helpful to the person I'm addressing? Is it beneficial? And the fifth one is, do I speak with a heart of loving kindness or with a kind of inward maliciousness. So these are really interesting conditions. You know, at first glance, like, well, this is pretty straightforward, you know, to figure out what's timely, figure out what's true, to figure out how to speak gently, and that it's going to be useful to a person.

[20:04]

So just stopping on those first four, the more I think about them, the more I realize I haven't any idea. How do I know what's the right time? You know, what's the right time for me may not be the right time for Peter. You know, I can only make a guess and a supposition based on some overview of the conditions and my reading of the situation, but it might be mistaken. Truth? Boy! Is there something that's absolutely true? It's very, it's pretty conditional. Gentle?

[21:08]

I know from my own experience that even the gentlest intended words can have a very different impact on people, no matter how careful you are. and beneficial, you don't know. You could say something with the purest intention of benefit and a person can turn around and run the other way. In the long run, they may come back. But you can't, these are subjective standards. and they involve relationship. All of those, those first four, are about the subjectivity is about how am I related to, how am I in relation to the person I'm speaking with.

[22:19]

Does that make sense? The fifth one is a little different. Do I speak with a heart of loving kindness That's the only one that's not necessarily relational between myself and another person. It's relational, it's my relationship to myself. So the question there is, what is my intention? That's the only one I come to think of as that I have the ability to know with any kind of servitude. If I'm not sure if I'm not sure of my intention then I come back to Bodhidharma's first instruction which is

[23:29]

not speaking a single word, that's the safe position. If I don't know whether my, in essence, if I don't know whether my motivation is to connect, then it's probably better for me to remain silent. If I feel like my motivation is to connect, and my evaluation is pretty clear on the other four principles, then I'm willing to take the risk. It's always a risk. Everything we do risks failure. it risks an outcome that is other than the one that we might be longing for.

[24:34]

And everything we do involves taking that risk. To take it with the best intention, to take it with the most clarified understanding that one can have, and to take it with the understanding that whatever occurs may have an outcome that's different from what I expect, while I'm willing to take that risk if my intention is one of wholesomeness and loving-kindness, if I believe that it is. So, this is all in the active realm, and before I open it up, What's interesting is that the emphasis in these precepts is all on speech.

[25:38]

And there's another element, which might be more important, which is just listening. The ability, not the ability to speak, but the ability to listen. Here, I think that the instruction that I really value comes from Thich Nhat Hanh, whose precepts he, this one, he frames as deep listening and loving speech. And this is of the suffering caused by unmindful speech and the inability to listen to others. I vow to cultivate loving speech and deep listening in order to bring joy and happiness to others and to relieve others of their suffering.

[26:51]

Knowing that words can create happiness or suffering, I vow to learn to speak truthfully with words that inspire self-confidence, joy, and hope. I am determined not to spread news that I do not know to be certain, and not to criticize or condemn things of which I am not sure. I will refrain from uttering words that can cause division or discord, or that can cause the family or the community to break. I will make all efforts to reconcile and resolve all conflicts, however small. Really the principle tool for resolving conflicts is listening. So the first thing we have to do is listen to ourselves. This listening is It's sometimes what we're doing as we are sitting zazen.

[28:00]

We're listening to the flow of mind that comes up without being caught on any one moment, but just listening, noticing, and letting that flow through. The same thing is true as we are talking to others, although there it's a different activity, it's not Zazen in the same way, because actually we have to evaluate, we have to pay attention, we have to listen with our whole body, not just with our ears. We see, we listen to people's energies, We listen to their tone. We listen to the way they're holding their body.

[29:02]

At the same time, as we're listening that way, we are also listening to ourselves. If someone is speaking to me, I also need to be paying some attention. How am I holding my body? Am I kind of leaning back? to get away from it or stealing myself to that, to what I'm hearing. So listening is incredibly subtle. And it's perhaps the primary skill. How do we listen to our teachers? How do we listen to our family? How do we listen to our friends without immediately coming back with a word? but actually taking it in and seeing where does another speech actually reside within me.

[30:05]

This is a very, it's an interesting and difficult practice that gets all the more difficult the kinds of things that are being spoken to us are critical or painful, not what we want to hear. So that brings forth another one of the Bodhisattva's qualities, the quality of patience. Can I just accept it? Can I just listen? Can I just listen to what is being said? For me, what I do in a difficult conversation is I'll try to listen and I will try not to come back real quickly.

[31:11]

My predilection is to come back. That's just kind of... That's how we did it in the part of the country that I come from. Come back real quickly, defend, strike back. Not so helpful generally. It doesn't usually work to connect. Sometimes it does. So I try to learn to listen, not react, and step back in some way, whether symbolically or actually, or just take that space. And with the assumption that there's something this person is telling me that's true.

[32:17]

And there's something that's useful. So it comes back to those principles. There's something even that's beneficial for me, whether I like it or not. And can I distill from out of what is painful, find what is valuable before I defend? This is really important practice. It's really distinct from the practice of saying no. And it's not exactly the practice of saying yes. It's kind of like maybe. Maybe there's something in here that I can really learn from.

[33:21]

And I think that's an extremely useful tool. We're talking about communication in the broadest sense and that's beyond words. I remember being in Japan I don't know, about almost 25 years ago. And our teacher for this practice period at Rinzowin was Paul Disko, the builder, whom some of you know. And we were at Susan Hiroshi's temple, Rinzowin. And he was trying with, we were very trying to him, a bunch of, it was all guys. you know, all American guys. And, you know, he was trying to explain something about what it was like in Japan, what we should pay attention to, because we were kind of clueless.

[34:37]

And he said, well, go down to the, go down to the corner, almost like a 7-Eleven, a little market and a kind of crossroads for the village. And he said, well go down to the, by the store there's a bridge and just hang out on the bridge and watch the old ladies walking by in the course of the day and just watch them. You can't understand them anyway because they're speaking He said, well, they'll talk about the weather and their health, but just watch their bodies, which are constantly bowing towards each other. He said, it's not in the words. The words are just a medium to connect.

[35:42]

Watch what they're doing with their bodies. And this is, it's not that the words are insignificant. Are they connecting? Are the words to connect or are they to divide? Is your body to connect or to stand apart from? Do you stand apart from yourself? Do you stand apart from your friends? Do you stand apart from... How do you stand with the people that you find yourself in disagreement or opposition to? This is the challenge of practicing in the world. This is the challenge of listening, the challenge of speech, and the challenge of communication. So I think I'll stop there and leave a few minutes for

[36:47]

for discussion and I think we'll have Q&A this morning as well, but if you have some thoughts or questions here, we can begin. Ross. Thank you very much. Regarding the area of the country where you came from, there are a lot of people there, there are many different people there who actually do communicate and do have understanding and intimacy and relationship. And I wonder if you can talk about what that stylistic difference is that seems to work for them that you brought up in a sense that may not work all the time. Yeah. Well, you know what? I love it there. I come from New York. And there's just a mode of communication that's very direct. and I think there's a lot of intimacy and what I found I mean I found this a number of things about not just not just here it's just like there's a different you go to different places and there's a different cultural milieu and they don't understand you know it's not like

[38:14]

any mode of communication is absolute. I feel like, quite honestly, a New York mode of communication doesn't work so good in California. I'm a musician, I perform, and I would tell jokes on stage that would be very funny in New York and in California. What did he say? Did he really say that? I don't understand. And this is true, I think, in a wider sense. Americans, period, are the New Yorkers of the world. So when I go to Asia, and I've really learned this because I go to going to Asia most most every year it's like we are as a nation we're cursed with uh this uh attitude that we know and uh you know what people don't appreciate that for the most part and so you have to learn yeah well an attempt to bridge

[39:35]

bridge between West and East. You know that? Which West and which East are we talking about? I'm getting there. OK? You know that New York expression, forget about it? Forget about it. Isn't that another way of saying, just let go? Yeah. Yeah. Sort of. It could be. It could also be used as, it can be used in a variety of ways. It has an infinite, an infinite envelope of meaning, probably. But I think it, yeah, I think it's let go. Jake? Two things. First, for me, I thought Seinfeld helped me a bit. It's not my approach, but I feel like I understand New York a little better having watched Jerry Seinfeld. It's pretty good. But anyway, my question is, you spoke about hearing, deep hearing. Deep listening. Listening, yeah. You also spoke about hearing. Yeah, listening, okay. You didn't talk so much about deep seeing relating to being sentient and unsentient that don't have voice and yet we're in connection with them.

[40:49]

Would you say a bit about that? You should hear with your eyes. Peter? and kindness, and you're hearing words which land in a way which are kind of like, you don't understand, and they're difficult. Are not these other four criteria a way to kind of unpack, or maybe help the person unpack what they're saying in a way that's useful to you, to bring to light how they're saying is useful, kind, truthful, in a way that they recognize too. It's very tricky. Yes, it could be.

[41:50]

And that seems to me to veer close to telling, trying to instruct people on how they should communicate with you. okay maybe i misunderstood it kind of like i don't understand you uh-huh what can i what can i find out from you that reveals both to me and you at the same time how uh how can you help me uh understand yourself me help me understand you in a way that you understand yourself at the same time You're not listening to me. I don't know what the hell you're talking about. I think that's likely to be the response that you get to that. No, the question, I think you're right. I think the question is, is one of a kind of infinite subtlety of trying what's going to work to clarify that so that you understand.

[43:01]

For me, I may not trust my ability always to be able to do that. What I do trust is really stepping back and letting it sink in on my own time as best I can. And usually I find something It may take me days. It may be really painful. But when I can find it, and I know this enough from experience, there's a gift in there somewhere. And when I can find it, then I have appreciation for the person who's actually given me something. But it may take me a long time. Regarding speaking the truth, since I never know what the truth is, basically I'm speaking about what's going on in my body and what's going on in my head.

[44:10]

So the only thing I can say is like, this is what's up for me now. This is what's going on right now. This is the mind picture that's come up for me. This is the body feeling that's come up for me. That's all I can really say. So if I say it that way or give it that way, then I'm not saying I know the truth. Right. I think that's good and where I see sometimes people a problem that occurs is perhaps believing too much in what you're experiencing in your body and that usually for me the red flag of that is when people start talking about my truth. Yeah. You guys never do that, right? One of my favorite terms. Right.

[45:11]

So that's just a real red flag. And also that's, of course, reifying the self. That's digging, it's really, it raises a red flag because The flag has been planted in the territory of self. It's very sweet you guys are sitting next to each other. No, I'm not kidding. There's also a larger self that mysteriously extends between you, between Jerry and Paul, and that's self too. So what happens in one body is not apart from what happens in the other body that one is in intimacy with.

[46:12]

And that, in any exchange, whether it's loving, angry, joyous, sad, The principle of connection is to look for the one body in that. This is what our late friend Darlene Cohn used to call body-to-body practice, and that's the essence of

[46:50]

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