Hello, um, cause I... No paws, just feet. Um, so if I'm talking, you know, you see that basically there's not very much change. If we put this down to, kind of, two or three, um... Let's see, how does that, how does that work? Um... Sometimes if, you know, if... There is a way that, you know, this will be a little bit different to this. I'm not sure why that works, but... The other clever thing about this machine is it has a separate head for recording and playing back, which is a kind of thing you only get on professional machines. So if you listen to, or if you watch this very closely, if you listen with headphones, when you listen to tape it's actually a tiny bit delayed, because it's recording and then it's playing back.

[01:01]

So, um, it's a kind of thing that professional, you know, machines have all the time, so you can listen to the, what's coming and you can listen to the tape to make sure it's sounding good. So if, just be aware that if you do listen to it with headphones and listen to tape, you'll be hearing, you'll start delaying. And... What is that? I can't remember, there was a speaker... Yeah, I thought there was a way of getting it to come out of this speaker, I can't remember what it is. But Sony had those little purple speakers, you know, X-Pedge, you may have them again, which you can plug into this socket. And it may be... I don't want to try this out very much, but, um, you know, doing those big dining events where people can't hear it, maybe you can get those speakers just to help a little bit with the amplification, but will it just be just a little bit? And then again, we have to make sure that you don't have it set to tape,

[02:06]

because then it'll become, the speaker will be broadcasting a slight delay, which is... When you're speaking this tape, it's the best thing you can do, if someone's broadcasting a similar noise or a slight delay. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. I guess I'm going to give a little bit of a talk, but I hope there'll be plenty of questions. I'm Sandra. Can everybody hear me?

[03:07]

Okay. Buddhism is, in some ways, it's like a Chinese restaurant. It has three columns. Column A is Buddha. Column B is Dharma. And column C is Sangha. Buddha is... In the main rendition of this, we say Buddha is the perfect teacher, Dharma is the perfect teaching, and Sangha is the perfect life. Sangha, the term Sangha comes from a Sanskrit word, which has something to do with, like, aggregate. Is that true? No? Which, in the aggregate, they're talking about, of course, is the disciples of the Buddha, the monks and nuns. However, in the Mahayana, it's gotten kind of a wider, to everyone who practices, and sometimes it's even thought of in a wider sense, is everything in every entity is Sangha. So we can talk about the Sangha of rocks, et cetera.

[04:08]

I'm going to be talking about the first and second version, not about the Sangha as rocks. Though Suzuki Roshi said that the thought of Sangha as river rock, that river rock bumps up against each other and gets very smooth from us running up against each other. And those of you who have lived at Tassajara or within Sanghas know that that often happens, that kind of rough edges one way or another get bumped off, if we stay. So Sangha in a certain... I'll talk about Sangha in two senses, but Sangha in a certain way is very difficult, because it's very difficult to live with other people. Aren't they difficult? And of course we're difficult for them. And Sangha is not... Probably we wouldn't choose the people in our Sangha.

[05:12]

I mean, some of them we would, but it's their own intention and interest. And searching for the dharma that brings them here. Not necessarily that they're our type of person, whatever that is. So in some sense... And it's a little bit like our birth families, even though perhaps in some Buddhist sense we choose them. But sometimes it's hard to see why. But everyone has something to contribute. And one of the important things about Sangha is

[06:19]

we often learn something from... we learn as much from our peers in the dharma as we do from our teachers. A teacher can tell you some stuff that nobody else can. But the person you live with often knows something about you that your teacher doesn't know. And some people can do very well with their peers, but don't do well with people who are... with their teachers. And some people do very well with their teachers, but with their peers they're actually quite difficult. So these are all different ways that we can learn about things. The three treasures are also put so that any teacher can be correctable, any teaching can be misunderstood, and any group of people can go off. But the three of them together really help to correct each other. Hello. So this week is called Sangha Week.

[07:42]

Of course, every week at Tassajara is Sangha Week. But in another sense, it's a time when we consciously invite people from other practice centers who are related to us to come so that the cousins get to meet each other. In some way, everyone who's come to Tassajara this week has had... there's been a whole web of connections that have brought you here, a whole web of dharma connections. And in a certain sense, realizing that dharma connections in the wider sense in which we're all connected is a very important part of practice. Sometimes we can be very self-centered and ego-centered and think, it's all about me. Do you ever think that? It's all about me. But it's not all about you. It's not all about me. But we're part of it. We're part of the web of what things are.

[08:42]

And just to notice our connection to other sanghas is just a little part of it. Tassajara may look like it's independent, but it really depends on its wider friends, on Greenarch and the city center, and on donors who don't even practice here, and on people who support us even though they don't know who we are. So realizing that wider connection is very important, and part of the way we can do that is to see past our particular sanghas and see the connection between all of them. So one of my jobs is to encourage Dharma groups in our lineage

[09:47]

to find out what they need, to see if there's something that they can help us with, and we can help them with, and they can help us with. And so that's part of what we're here to do this week. I'm here to listen, to see what your sanghas could use, and you and I are here to teach that which you can, the things that you need. But I think you all want to hear about the difficulties of sangha. Maybe I should tell some of the difficulties that I had. When I was at Tessa Highland, which was a long time ago for practice period, one practice period I was done, which was okay, I could chant well enough and hit the bells fairly well, but I couldn't hit the drum, the nail drum. How many of you hit the nail drum?

[10:49]

How many of you find it easy to do? Some people are good at it, but I was not very good at it. In fact, I would play it over and over again, and it still didn't sound very good, but I would keep practicing it. Of course, when you practice the drum at Tessa Highland, everybody hears it. If you can't practice it in secret, everyone hears it. And of course, if you're bad at it, you practice it a lot. And people come up to you and say, you know, you're not hitting the drum right. As if I didn't know. And I would just say, oh, is that so? And I would still practice. And of course, the more I practiced, I would get a little bit better, but I was really remedial. And then, at the time, Rabbit would come after about the first month,

[11:51]

and he came, and he heard me hitting the drum, and he said, he wouldn't let him hit the drum right. And I said, oh. And he said, let me show you. And he couldn't hit the drum very well either. So, I don't know, I learned something there. For me, it wasn't about how well I hit the drum, though I continued to try to hit it better, but about my engagement with it. And I didn't get upset if people criticized me, because, in fact, in this case, they were totally right. I didn't hit the drum very well. Another time, which is sort of a similar thing, during Sashin, I, well, you know,

[12:53]

sometimes during Sashin, you stay up all night. And this time, this particular time, I did. I didn't do it all the time, and sometimes it was difficult, but it was easy, I just slipped into it. And I was up all night, and I was awake, and it was wonderful. But then the wake-up bell rang, and I left the zendo, and I brushed my teeth, and as soon as I got back in the zendo, I was dead asleep. I couldn't stay awake. I mean, no matter what I did, I was just... And at that time, we had a junko, a person who carried a stick almost every period. And there were some people in the sangha who, you know, were a little enthusiastic about him carrying a stick. You know, they liked it too much, or at least that's how it seemed to me. So this time, it was one of those people. But I was so out of it. Any time she would come by me, she would hit me,

[13:56]

and for some reason, it was okay, because I was asleep, and it was her job to hit me if I was asleep. So she was doing her job, and I was doing mine. And the fact that every time she came around, she hit me, I thought, well, she's dedicated. But it's important. Well, I could have gotten into a grudge about her, and some of us get into that sometimes. Oh, the great gamassio wars. Do you know the great gamassio wars? During practice period, for some reason, I think it's some insidious reason, gamassio condiments are put every three people. So there has to be a passing of the gamassio from the first to the second, and the second to the third person. And at different times, there were rulings on this,

[15:02]

but for some practice periods, it wasn't certain as to when you were supposed to pass the gamassio. Was it after the second bowl was served, or after the third bowl was served? Yes? Gamassio is sesame salt, which you put as a condiment. And because you're seated in the same seat for the practice period, you're stuck in the first, second, or third position. If you're in the first position, there's no problem. In the second position, when you want to pass it, then it's the most stressful. And in the third position is the anger one. Is there a correct time to pass the gamassio?

[16:09]

Well, now we pass it after the third bowl, because when that wasn't clear, we had gamassio wars. As recently as a year ago. I mean, it hasn't changed that much. So, and the reason is because if you pass it after the third bowl is being served and you're at the end of the line, you can't get the gamassio on before the meal begins, which is a grave concern. Since you have so little time. Of course, all this doesn't matter. If you're not in the situation, it seems silly. Pass it on the second or the third, you get the gamassio, you don't get the gamassio. But, you know, wars are started by such things. And better to work out the irritations of gamassio than other things.

[17:10]

What's also very important in sangha is it's important to have at least a few close friends in the sangha who can tell you the truth. To tell you the truth. Do you have some friends like that? Because often you have irritations with people and maybe the irritations have to do with them and maybe they have to do with you. And usually you don't think they have to do with you. It's those other people. But if you talk to someone and you say, you know, sometimes you don't do that quite right. I can understand how that person was irritated. Or maybe they don't tell you the truth, but they just listen carefully and ask you questions. What did you do? And what did they do? So that's very important to have some close friends in the sangha who you can open to

[18:21]

and who will tell you at least what they think. Because it's not about me. So sangha is an opening to it's not about me. So those of you who are part of sanghas that aren't living, that it's not quite the same intensity when you don't live with people but you practice with them. But even so you can be a resource for them. And you get to know people in a different way. If you are a zendo you can tell the way a person enters their kind of footsteps. Or the shadow they cast. Or their cough. There's an intimacy that you get with people to know them.

[19:25]

And like I was sitting at the table and one sangha mentor told another, well if you need help selling the rocks, I'll help. It's a way you can find a way to help and support each other. Of course there are also sangha wars where two people don't get along and then they try to enlist other members to be on their side. And then they try to do the same thing with their teacher. Which is very difficult. The teacher's job and the sangha's job is to create harmony. In some ways the sangha is a way to create harmony with Buddha and Dharma. So don't do that. If you have some problem with someone, work it out with them or get other people to help you work it out with them. Don't try to boost to your side to win.

[20:28]

That's a no-win situation. Let's see. One of the things I'm struck with when I come to Tassajara every year, and I come once or twice or three times every year, is it's the same people at Tassajara every year. They have different names, but they're the same people. And they're all wonderful people. And they're all transforming. And people often say, such and such is so bad. They make the same mistake. How could they be practicing for so many years and do that?

[21:29]

And I usually say, you didn't see them when they came. And I think one of the things that happens in the sangha is, the first four or five years you come to practice in a practice place, the quick changes that you can make, you make. The quick transformations that happen, happen. But after that, it doesn't seem like anything's changing. And you have to find some other reason to practice besides a quick fix. And one of the things that at least I notice is, I notice how people who I practice with change. Though it's very slow and infinitesimal, I do see the change in them. And I have some faith that probably I'm changing too, I just don't notice it. Because sometimes you can see the changes in others better than in yourself. So, there are two ways to be,

[22:38]

there are many ways to be helpful in the sangha. One is to be strict, and one is to be kind. And actually the best is to be strict and kind at the same time. When I say strict, it's to just say it the way it is, without any extra. And the way to be kind is to be on the other person's side. I've done a lot of work on Suzuki Roshi's teachings, and talked to a lot of people who have studied with Suzuki Roshi, and they all in one way or another say, the one thing that they have in common when they talk about Suzuki Roshi is, they all felt that he was on their side. Not that he agreed with them, but he was on their side. And when you give a comment or a criticism or a correction or a mirror to somebody, and you're on their side,

[23:40]

it's much easier to accept it, than if there's some axe to grind. Now what happens in the community of course is, many of us spend many years resisting comments. And after a while people stop making comments, and then when we begin to change, people say, no one told me that. But then when people see an opening, all of a sudden everybody gives you feedback all at once. And it's too much. But that's the way it goes. In fact, I think a good rule of thumb is, I've often heard people say, they didn't give me criticism in the right way. They didn't give me feedback in the right way. Well that may be, but it's your job if you're giving feedback, to give it the best way possible.

[24:42]

And if you're receiving feedback, to figure out what the real feedback is, even if it's embedded in a lot of noise. So it's also important to be strict and kind with yourself, because you're a member of the sangha. The sangha isn't everybody else but you. The sangha includes you. And that means you need to be kind to yourself, in other words, in order to have the endurance and strength to be strict. I am not going to do karaoke, even though it looks like it.

[25:51]

Are there any questions so far? Are there any sangha problems that you... Okay. Okay. Yes? What do you do when you need to give feedback to somebody, but you really don't feel on their side? Yes. And you're aware of that in yourself, so you don't want to go... She asked, what do you do if you really feel you need to give feedback to somebody, but you're not on their side? In other words, you're angry at them. It's best to wait. Well, actually, there are many different styles. Some people do well with giving feedback when they're angry. They get angry, and they drop it, and it's fine.

[27:01]

For me, it's cleaner if I have a charge to wait. And sometimes you have to wait for the right opportunities to say something to somebody, because often you don't have to give them feedback. But sometimes you feel you have to give them feedback for you, because you feel like you're not taking care of yourself or something or other. And then you can do that, but... You can do that. It's not as effective, but sometimes you need to do that. Is the strictness and kindness model that you're talking about the same as the wisdom, compassion, the mantras, shriya, bhagavad-gita, complementing one another? It could be. It could be. Yeah?

[28:06]

I was just wondering if you have some reflections on American sanghas in particular. Well, this is difficult because Japanese sanghas are hard to read, if you're not Japanese. In so many cultural things, I can talk all at once about America, but I'm not sure I really know what America is or Japanese is. But I will... That doesn't stop me from saying something. But I do take it with a... I'm not sure about this. It's just my impression. It's my impression that we as Americans have a difficult time with authority, and that we have a difficult time with institutions, and we like being independent. That's my impression. And some of those things are okay. I mean, it's okay to be warned to be independent. Authority sometimes needs to be questioned,

[29:09]

and institutions can get calcified. But I think if you're... If you come into a situation being distressful with institutions and think that you're right and the institution is wrong, and then you become an individual, the institution loses the people who are... You constructive criticisms of it, and you become isolated with your own self-righteousness. How about that? And then authority... Authority is a difficult thing. Authority is both something that is earned and you learn about, and you question, and you... It has a lot to do with intimacy. Real authority. So in some ways, you know, Suzuki Roshi liked us, that we were independent, but he didn't like us in that we were independent,

[30:11]

in that we thought more highly of our own opinion than of others. So there's a lot to learn. And I think each... Like, Tibetan Buddhism is Tibetan culture's engagement with Buddhism, and it's different from Chinese Buddhism, or it's different from Southeast Asian Buddhism. Buddhism does like us to engage in the environment that we come from. So part of it is for us to make out what it is. And I mentioned that the sanghas from the three main traditions have gone different ways. The Tibetan sanghas have mostly not adapted to America, have mostly kept their Tibetan teachers. I mean, there are exceptions. But have mostly kept to the traditional way

[31:13]

and the traditional language and the traditional practices, and haven't empowered some of the Westerners. So they're very conservative, which is a good way to go. And the Zen tradition has pretty much... The teachers have come to America, and the teachers have empowered Westerners, but told them to change the forms and practices slowly, not to change them radically. And the Theravada tradition, for the most part, there's exceptions in each case. The Western teachers went to Asia, studied with Asian teachers who empowered them, who then came to America and tried to adapt to what they thought would be an American form. So it's actually good that those are three different ways for sanghas to develop, and we'll see. And probably it's great that there's...

[32:15]

And there's probably, in each one of the traditions, there's one of those forms that's happened. Shiva? There are groups of sanghas, and that's, I guess, the most sangha case. There are other groups, and those groups have some dynamics. So I was wondering if there's any experience out there where that has been either helpful or not helpful. Disagreement in the sangha? Groups, right? Well, it must not necessarily be disagreement, but, let's say, some people have self-opinions, and they get that one group, and other people will have a tendency of... Sure. Well, I think one of the reasons I chose to stay at Sun Center... Well, I came here, and I like the teachers, and I like the teachings,

[33:16]

but I really like the people practicing. What I liked about them is that... One thing I liked about them is that there were a variety of people. There was outrageous people like David Chadwick and conservative people like I won't mention. There were all kinds of people. And I liked that the sangha could include that diversity. And the fact that there's disagreement in the sangha is fine. It's actually good. It's just it shouldn't polarize. But it does in smaller sanghas. Yeah. Well, it does. The sangha is mostly often polarized around the teachers. It's often what happens, and that's difficult. But I think you should either work it out with the teacher you're studying with or find another teacher. You should work it out. If you have a teacher, you should give it your best shot. But if it's not working out,

[34:19]

and you find yourself avoiding him or her, and you're not going to get closer, then try somebody else. I think it's best to work it out with the teacher you're with, but if you're not going to, then you should try something else. But I want to say one other thing. It's quite likely. I've talked to Gregory Chopin, who's the leading scholar on the Mahayana in India. I don't know if he believes this, but he says it's quite likely that what later became the Theravada sect and the Mahayana practiced in the same temples, and that they didn't become separate. They weren't as separate as the writings were.

[35:20]

They all practiced together, and maybe they did different practices, but they were all in the same temple. So in a certain sense, for a big temple like Zen Center, you can see there are different tendencies from different students and different teachers toward different teachings, and it's fine. It makes it richer. Did I help? There's a part of it that I'm not answering. Would you? Well, maybe for the sangha as a whole, I mean, as a teacher, I can see that maybe the sangha is a group all by themselves. How can it be that the sangha group divisions for another? I mean, that's one of the concerns or something that can happen. I don't know. But I think that to create a schism in sangha...

[36:21]

Okay. How many of you from sanghas feel that that's a danger in your sangha? What's the danger? Schisms. Yeah? It's like the question about when there's little groups within sanghas that form to support members of the sangha in a way that's beneficial, but there's this balancing thing where one group leads to another and another, and before you know it, there's like bunches of groups within the bigger group, and how to address that. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah. Does that happen a lot in Europe, or are you thinking that... That happens a lot in Korea, and I think it must happen when we're all living together. And so one group divides into two or three different groups, and do they become separate? I think sometimes there's groups

[37:22]

that could actually form in response to other groups. Okay. Well, I'm not sure what to say about that. One example would be if people are around one teacher and then that teacher moves on or dies, or something, so the new teacher... Oh, yeah. That happens all the time. In Asia, that happens. If the teacher dies, and then the... It depends. You see, there's so many different ways of choosing the teacher and whether there are multiple teachers in the temple or not. But there are temples that you choose the master until he can live all his life as the head of the temple. That's when there are many different styles, and often a lot of people will leave. But in Korea, which is maybe...

[38:22]

I don't know if this is true, but maybe... It's my impression it's a little feistier there. And the monks aren't committed to being at any particular temple. There's often a big to-do about who's going to be the... I'm not sure if it's the abbot or if it's the head teacher. I think it may be a little different. Yeah? It's probably significant that one of the five instant karma sins of Buddhism is causing schism and sangha. Yes. So that's been an issue somewhere. Yes. I think there are ways in which we can contribute to schisms in the sangha and ways in which we can try to prevent them. And if we see them developing, respond in a way that could be helpful rather than adding to the fire of it. And I think for all of us,

[39:24]

developing skills in conflict resolution and right speech could be beneficial. And I know that's one of the things that is in the works at Zen Center for at least residents of the three centers to have access to training in conflict resolution. Because I think conflicts do arise. It's inevitable whether we're living together or not if we're in a sangha. And it really makes a difference how we feel about those conflicts or how we relate to the conflicts, whether we're contributing... There's a lot that can be learned from conflict. If you never have conflict and you always agree with everything, I don't know if you're engaging. And sometimes if there's conflict with something, you need to question your stance and say, well, maybe, what's true about this? It's very important. But...

[40:28]

It's also very possible to say, I want to be on this side and I want this side to win. It's another version of me. Yes? I can think of two situations where smaller subgroups form that aren't necessarily... They have a positive basis that can be challenging. One is about... ideas about different strictness of practice or different forms of practice. You don't have to choose which forms to be. The other is affinity groups, whether it's race or class or gender. And I think both of those come from feeling that the practice as it's presented is not completely mirroring what's arising within itself. So I think there's really a tension between wanting to find others to practice with

[41:32]

when you feel met and mirrored and having... moving toward the support of the entire sangha. And I don't think... I think you don't have a real model for how to do that. So I find that when groups like people of color want to have groups, that there's some fear that comes up around that. Sure. There's resistance on the part of some people feeling that that's causing schisms and causing separation. There's a fear around that. A good example, which is... I hope you think is successful, is... integrating of women ancestors and feminism into Buddhism in the West. There's been some tension and I think there continues to be some tension and there may be some tension about maybe we're the only gender time we say he or she is when we say she.

[42:32]

But anyhow, there's working through that and making it an expression that doesn't deny other people's experience and can be inspiring to everyone. Yes. I think Zen Center's made huge strides in including women so that now women are leaders maybe as often as men including the Acharyas. But there are other groups that are not so well represented and I think we have a lot of work to do in that area. And I think what Linda said is true that when a group... Last practice period we had a people of color group meeting. We had gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender group that met a couple of times. We had a men's group and a women's group. Yes. And I see that as very healthy but not everybody does and I don't think it necessarily creates schisms that can help one feel

[43:33]

that there are other people to relate to about certain issues that you feel maybe difficult to talk about or where you feel underrepresented. But I think that is something we have to learn how to work with. And once again, this I think tends to be an American issue more than a Japanese issue which tends to be more homogeneous and they assume that everyone has the same background. And when you don't... We often have different projections coming from different backgrounds about what something means. And if you're non-verbal, that's a particular problem because not everybody sees the non-verbal cues the same way. But it is complicated and sometimes I get a headache with all this. Now, which group can I go to? But, you know, this has been talked about in the Sando Kai,

[44:36]

the merging of difference and unity. And it's... Are we different? Yeah. Are we the same? Yeah. Yes? I just wonder... This is such a big feature in American Western Buddhism to have the psychological impact. Yes. And I wonder if the teaching might not cover all of it, all the needs that arise. So if there could be some form or are some forms that are already creating, knowing, which are, for some, more helpful to... You mentioned about the conflict resolution programs that are happening for people or people going to therapy a lot. And also those are features which might be more and more like be included as an offering for people who are in the Sangha

[45:37]

to say, this is part of what we have to do to keep speaking in a Buddhist environment. Well, yeah. I don't know. I want to say two different things about that. One is, you can also talk about just traditional Buddhist teachings. The fourth... The fourth scandal has to do with cultural and habit nature, which can often get at some of this stuff. The other thing I wanted to say is, oh, quite right, but they're the closest things. So, I don't... I feel... I feel kind of balanced about how much we psychologicalize the teaching. I mean, we have to do it some,

[46:38]

but I'm afraid about doing it too much. It would seem like taking a really good look at the impermanent nature of our existence is certainly a unifying effect when it comes to gender, sexual orientation, or color. And when we really begin to understand that, it's... it's very unifying. Yes? Very important. Yes? Yes. Yes. Should I just be quiet,

[47:43]

or should I, you know, stand up and say, don't talk about someone, you know, just go to them, or something? I mean, it's hard for me. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Thank you.

[48:45]

Okay. Okay. It's a little bit of a complicated answer, I'm sorry. But I think religion has two very important factors. One is tradition, and one is adaptation. In the modern world today, most people are either bound to tradition, or adapt religion off their consciousness. What's most important is we take the wisdom of the past and deal with the present. Thank you. Thank you. We've got five more minutes.

[50:03]

Maybe there'll be five more minutes in which you can talk to each other. Yes? When? Have you heard my Buddhist math? You start off with duality, seeing things as different, as different. Then you see how they're one, and then they disappear as none. Buddhist math, two, one, zero. Yes? Yes. I feel like it would be easy for me just to be disinterested when others have this conflict, but I would rather try to help them resolve it. Well, there are other ways to do that. That was just one way. Another way is to say, is to try to change the subject. Another way is to say,

[51:12]

you know, I don't like this kind of talk, but to do it in an even way rather than one which shows how good you are and how bad they are. Michael, the last time I was here, the last time I was here, you mentioned something, and I remembered it for quite a while, and then I forgot it. And it's coming back to me now, but it was the perfect teacher, and the perfect talk, could you repeat that for me? The five perfections. The perfect time, which is? The perfect place, which is? The perfect teaching, which is? The perfect teacher, which is? And the perfect student, which is? And what's so good about that teaching

[52:17]

is that there's no excuse. You know, most of the time we say, if only, if only I was at Tassajara, if only I was back in the city, if only I was in a committed relationship, if only I was out of this goddamn relationship, if only I had a job, if only I had free time, if only I was retired, if only I was in school again. If only I was free. Chris? Well, as you know, I've been doing this very long, and so I'm a beginner, but also I realized I was more a person than a beginner in mind. And I see myself in other people more now than ever. And I, having this thing that I'm working on,

[53:19]

seeing myself in other people, and then seeing that I want, it's not my place to tell somebody that I realized that it's this way, that I'm not a teacher. But I feel myself compelled to teach. I realize I should be pointing back at myself and teach myself. So I work with this, but I have this sort of twisting going on between us and them, but I also realize the concept that there is no other. And so I have this skill line, I don't know if you can have it. Well, you can teach as long as you're not teaching. You know, if you're teaching somebody, it feels like

[54:22]

you're doing something to them. But if, you know, if the relationship is right, if the time is right, you can be, you can tell people what you think. But I don't ask my, it's always been in my nature to just say. I'm finding myself more as a being to just say, but I don't really feel like I have come up with the skills to go any further. Sometimes I feel like now I'm better. And I understand action sometimes is better, but it seems like action often goes nowhere. Well, I guess what I would give to you as a gift is to reflect on the compulsion. It's the compulsion

[55:23]

which you probably tell people things that they should listen to, but if you do it with too much, if there's too much need from you happening in it, they'll say, oh, that's Chris. Thank you for that. Okay. Oh, I was supposed to make a couple of announcements. The way I think that fits in one of the little hearts of the funeral samadhi, that line. And I think it's kind of like, that's kind of, I think it's an expression of Dingshan's subtlety. That's how his realization was. And one thing that's kind of helped me approach it is a quote from the Surangama Samadhi Sutra. And let's see.

[56:24]

In India, I have no idea if Dingshan ever saw this. So let's see. When the Bodhisattva resident mind questioned the God manifest mind, if a Bodhisattva wishes to attain this samadhi, what dharmas should he cultivate? And the God replied, a Bodhisattva who wishes to attain this samadhi should cultivate the dharmas of the worldly, or the dharmas of co-ordinated people. If he sees those dharmas of the worldly and he is united with, or separate from, the Buddha dharma, or the Buddha dharmas, or the dharmas of the Buddha, then he is cultivating the Surangama Samadhi. So, so for me this is this expression of non-duality and that you know,

[57:26]

you can't say it's different and you can't say it's the same. And you know and you know, you can't say it's both or neither either actually. And for me this is actually really helpful and I think it's hard to grasp, but it actually, I think it's what really works and and if if, you know, if our life is the same as Buddha's life then it's like you know, then they say, like, why do we need to practice? Why would we ever separate? And if they're and if they're really different, or really separate, then, you know, no amount of practice can save us. So so one way of understanding this is

[58:28]

they're intimate, you know, that that and so this kind of one way you can express this is that the wheel is intimate with the seeming or the apparent. And that positions, but I think we should, maybe I'll stop for a little while before getting into that and and see how how you're doing. So are there any kind of questions or comments so far? Is this making sense? So if if well different things Yeah, that'd be one way to say it. Our life and Buddha's life, or what we work with and what Buddha's live with or or, you know, I think in the Jonah's mind it just becomes you and it you know, you are not it it actually is you and the it is like

[59:30]

I think the form of suchness No, it's not well So that's making sense? Kind of? Okay Thank you So

[59:53]

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