to keep the social difference, and so the Hinduism is more powerful to the common people, and so just Buddhism is criticized by Hindu people, and then, you see, the next reason is the coming of Muslim people, Islam people, and Muhammadanists, they come and destroy, their image breaker, everything breaks, destroys everything, and then die out. Some Buddhists already started a mission in Ceylon, just after the death of Buddha, some disciples went to Ceylon.

[01:14]

So, in Ceylon, the original type of Buddhism has been preserved. Yes. I would like for you to say something about the practice of ordination, the ordained Buddha. I understand that any priest can ordain any other person. Oh, oh. This is what I understand. I would like some clarification of what is the practice of ordination in Buddhism. Well, I think that most sects are similar institutions, but I don't know very much about the other sects. I am telling you about Nichiren sect. Is that all right?

[02:15]

Well, the ordination, yes, I am an ordained priest, so I can ordain another man, but not privately, because we say, I say, you see, for instance, just now, I cannot, can I ordain you? No. This is some qualifications and some group watching, for watching, see? And so, we must have some ceremony, see, for that. And the first requisite is your quality, qualification, see? How many years you train yourself in chanting and other, you see, practices in temple?

[03:29]

And what school, how many, what subject you studied in school, to what kind of school you attend, you see, many other items. And then, when it was a requisite satisfied by some, you see, we have a book, regulation books, you see? Then I can ordain you, and then we must have ceremony attended by some people, see? Yes. In Japan, I don't know I can ordain outside Japan. It's very difficult, because we have not so much evidence for the ordination when we want to ordain outside Japan.

[04:50]

Yes. So, as far as Nichiren sect is concerned, nobody will ordain outside Japan. Is there different degrees of ordination, sir? I guess we have it in some... I mean by ordination, the acquiring or acquisition of the capacity of teaching Buddhism. Teacher, qualification for teacher, that means, I mean by ordination. When you mean by, that's initiation, that's different. Initiation into priesthood, into monkhood, that's different, see?

[05:56]

When we become, when we enter monkhood, we say just shammy. Shammy, that's usually the small boy becomes shammy, see? See? Ten or twelve years old boy becomes shammy and works in temple, and then go to school and train himself in some way, see, regular way, see? Then some years later, well, ten years or more later, he is ordained. He is given a teacher's certificate. Then you start some rank, see? Rank. First in lowest rank, and then so many years, according to his activities, merits, he promotes.

[07:04]

Yes. What do you mean by spirituality? Japanese Buddhists were more advanced in spirituality. They used the word spirituality. He said that from the spiritual level. He said that in Japan, the Buddhists were more advanced in spirituality. More spiritual than former. Oh, yes. You see, Mahayana Buddhism is more spiritual than Hinayana Buddhism. I mean to say, you see, the original form of Buddhism,

[08:13]

the original form of the discipline of Buddhism can be kept in India, but not outside of India. Why? Because, for instance, the rule says a monk must wear only three pieces of clothes, see? One for lunch, one for, see, coat, one for bed. That's only three are permitted. No more. But in a warm country, it can be done. When you go up, see, crossing the Himalayan mountains, you cannot, see?

[09:17]

So then, that spiritual movement comes out, see? We follow the Buddha. We follow the spirit of the Buddha, not the form of the Buddha, you see? We cannot follow the form, because this is too cold, you see? That's the development of spiritualism in Buddhism. My question is, do you mean awareness? Huh? Do you mean awareness? Awareness. Where? Awareness? Awareness. Huh? Awareness. Awareness. Awareness of what? Are they all, are you saying they're all aware? Ah, yes, yes. You see, just for the Buddha, me to say, see, that what is the point, see?

[10:23]

He regulates the rules, but for what point the Buddha regulates those rules, you see? That's important, not only formalism, see? That's the main point, in what, see? So, these Buddhists interpret this way, these Buddhists interpret this way. Then many things develop. Yes. But I wasn't sure if you were saying that in Japan they were more aware, because they didn't, spiritualism is formalism. That's so, that's so formal. Huh? Uh-huh. I guess he's, I believe he's saying, wondering if you said the Japanese Buddhists, because they're more spiritual and less formal, are more aware of, perhaps, the fundamentals of

[11:31]

Buddhism than the Sovereign School, right? I guess he's wondering. Well, yes, I think that's why, you see, Buddhist philosophy is more developing in Japan than in southern countries. Southern countries study, they study sutras, and see, that's a Pali text, Pali text. And they learn many things, the thoughts of many spiritualists, yes, but there the Buddhist philosophy is not so developed as in, as in China or Japan, see?

[12:40]

So, in that sense I can say we are more aware, yes, yes, yes. Would you tell me in a sense what is meant by a priest of Buddhism? I would think that Buddhism would not have a priest. I said, would you tell me what is meant by a priest of Buddhism? I would think that Buddhism wouldn't have a priest. Would there be no worship of God? Ah, the priest, this is the English term, and we don't say, I think the priest is the Catholic term. So, I don't like the word priest, we say just so, so comes from sangha, this is Sanskrit, that's where, you know, compound, you see, noun, I mean, you see, this is a group, group,

[13:51]

you see, noun, one cannot be called a priest, so, because it means sangha, sangha is just community, see? Well, so, priest is not good for soul, I mean, the word soul, soryo. Soryo is a poor word. And, but now we use, we use priest, just priest for the convenience sake. You know, we sometimes use bishop and archbishop, those words are just Catholic, not Buddhist. We don't have any pope in Buddhism, you see?

[14:54]

No archbishop, no bishop. So, bishop or archbishop cannot be used in Buddhism, strictly speaking. Well, I mainly, I was not objecting because it was just for the matter of splitting over words, but as I understand the definition in English, a priest is one who makes sacrifice unto the God, and Buddhism doesn't make any sacrifice unto the God. No, no, no sacrifice. Now, well, there's another word, Bikku, Bikku, I mean. Ah, Bikku, yes, the Bikku, yes, that's a common noun, see, to, for one person, the Bikku, yes, this, yes, the Bikku is a mendicant, yes, Bikku means beggar, you see, that at the first stage of Buddhism, one Bikku, Bikku, many Bikkus compose the Sangha, see?

[16:06]

So, the monk of Southern Buddhism is called Bikku, but we are Mahayana Buddhists, very far from Bikku, so we cannot use Bikku. Well, in Japan, in Japan the word Bikku is not used, not used now. Sometimes Bikkuni, Bikkuni, that's a female word, see? That is used, yes. Not Bikku. What is Banzi? Is that Chinese term for... Ban? Banzi. Banzi? Yes. It's spelled B-O-N-Z. Banzu! Banzu!

[17:07]

Oh, yes, Banzu, B-O-N-Z, Banzu. That is a very contemptuous word for, that comes from Bozu. Bozu? What is that? Originally it means the chief of a temple, the Bo. But now it's a very contemptuous word, you see? That's Banzu. But in some countries, you see, for instance in Vietnam, they may not know the origin of the word. Anyway, they use, they use the great head of this monastery like that, yes. But many Japanese know that Banzu comes from Bozu. Yes.

[18:10]

It's very similar between mantra and... Mantra? Yes, but they both... Ah, is it mantra? You see, he may... It's confusing. Mantra and mandala. It is very different, you see? Very different. Mantra is just a, you know, some mystic chant, chant spell coming from Shingon mysticism, you see? Mantra. Mantra is, you see, in Japanese Shingon, two words, mystic symbol, symbolic words or letters. That's mantra. Mantra. See? And mandala. Mandala is very different. Another thing, eh?

[19:11]

But Nam-myoho again is different. No, Nam-myoho is connected with mandala. No, is it? Is it? Ah, yes, yes. Is it connected with mantra? No. Oh, you mean that Nam-myoho is a kind of mantra, you mean? Yes. Oh, yes, yes. Some elements of mantra. Also, Namo Amida Butsu has sometimes a kind of mantra, in some cases. What does Nam-myoho again mean? That's just the address, you see? Nam is just honor to... We, in Japan, we understand, we devote ourselves to, see? But originally it comes from the Sanskrit word namas.

[20:12]

That means honor to. But in Japanese, in Japanese, we just follow, we devote ourselves to, see? For instance, when Namo Amida Butsu, we devote ourselves to Buddha Amitabha, like that. Nam-myoho-renkyo is the name of the sutra. Now, I was told by someone in Tsugaru Kikai that in one devotion, in one devotional praise, all devotional praise are the same. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Usually, usually, yes. Oh, yes. They told me that the mantra, the last part of the mantra, mystic sound, mystic, all mystic sound, all, all mystic sounds of the universe.

[21:15]

That Nam-myoho-renkyo meant all mystic, all, I believe, in the Buddha, in the universal law and all mystic sounds of the universe. All mystic, mystic sounds of the universe. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Usually, you see, the mantra is interpreted that way. That's a, that's a mantra, see? That is the mystic. But, usually, the mantra is expressed in Sanskrit, you see? In Sanskrit, you see? Sanskrit is just a derivation from Sanskrit. But, Nam-myoho-renkyo is not Sanskrit, that's a translation of Sanskrit. So, that's the difference, you see?

[22:19]

Nam-myoho-renkyo is also Sanskrit, you see? But, Nam-myoho-renkyo, myoho-renkyo is not Sanskrit. That's Chinese and Japanese, Chinese-Japanese. You see? Well, if there were such a thing as universal sound, then it wouldn't matter what language it was spoken in. I say, if there were such a thing as a mystical sound of the universe, it wouldn't matter what language it was spoken in. You mean the mantra? Mantra, Nam-myoho-renkyo, such as it was chanted here, in a certain sense. Well, I see. I am Nichiren, I say Nam-myoho-renkyo.

[23:27]

And, in the Nichiren, according to the Nichiren sect, Nam-myoho-renkyo is the sacred title of the sutra. And, when we say Nam-myoho-renkyo, you see, the... Well, I shall put it another way, see? Nam-myoho-renkyo, that we call the wotime of the sacred title. Nam-myoho-renkyo. And, I think this is thanks to the ignorance of the original meaning of Sanskrit, part of Japanese people, see?

[24:32]

Nam, when we say Nam, this is also a set of Nam-amida-butsu, see? When we say Nam-amida-butsu or Nam-myoho-renkyo, Nam means we devote ourselves to, see? But, at the same time, it can be written in the center of the altar, you see? When it is put in the center, it becomes an object for worship, you see? In that case, the Nam means the most honorable, like that, you see? So, this way of using Nam as just the honorific adjective,

[25:39]

and, in other case, the verb comes from the ignorance of the original meaning of Sanskrit, Namas. When we say Namas in Sanskrit, that means always, honor to, adoration to, glory to, you see? That's the development of Japanese Buddhism, a very peculiar way of development of Japanese Buddhism. So, when we say Nam-myoho-renkyo, that means we devote ourselves to the sutra. When we put Nam-myoho-renkyo in the center of the altar, it becomes an object of worship, yes. This is very frequent. This can be said of Nam-amida-butsu, yes.

[26:45]

It's a peculiar way of interpreting Buddhism. The same thing is the object of worship and the way of worship, yes. Do you have any particular impressions of American Buddhism? Oh, yes, yes. To what extent do you think of it as different from... You named Buddhists from different countries and different traditions in Buddhism. To what extent do you think of American Buddhism as being distinct? American Buddhism. It's American, yes. I don't think there is such a big organization to be called American Buddhism.

[27:56]

But, you see, here in America, you have Buddhism, and there are two kinds of Buddhism. One imported from Japan, one imported from the West, Europe. See? And so, these two kinds are not so mixed up well, but they influence each other to some extent. And this is also found in Japanese Buddhism of today. For instance, in Shinsetsu, until quite recently, they never celebrated the Hanamatsuri in Japan.

[29:06]

Because the Shinsetsu teaching is just exclusive faith in Buddha Amitabha. They never worshipped Buddha Shakyamuni. But nowadays, no. Nowadays, it's different. See? In Japan, they celebrate Hanamatsuri. Here also, they celebrate Hanamatsuri. They change, they change very much. And so, this is a kind of alternation of Japanese Buddhism into American Buddhism. Yes. And so, I think some points may be pointed out to characterize American Buddhism.

[30:27]

Yes. Could you tell me, I went to a place, and I don't believe it was a Buddhist service at all. But they were having a special commemoration. Could you tell me if Shonan Shinran was a Buddhist or a Shinto? Shinran Shonin? Shinran Shonin? Yes, I think that's right. Did you say Shinran Shonin? Shinran Shonin, I think. Shinran Shonin. Yes. Is he a Buddhist or a Shinto? Yes. He's a Buddhist. But this meeting I went to, I don't think it was Buddhist. It was called Konkokyo. Konkokyo? Yes. Konkokyo is not Buddhist. No, I don't think so. No. They were telling all about Shonan Shinran. Shinran Shonin is Buddhist. I don't understand that. Ah, well, well.

[31:29]

What is the difference between a Buddhist and a Shinto? Well, I don't know about that. There is a clear difference between them, but many similarities too. And, you see, in some cases, Japanese Buddhism or Japanese Buddhist function, ceremonies, are just Shinto. Yes. Because, you see, Shinto is spirit worship.

[32:35]

Spirit worship, I say. See? Spirit worship comes from Shinto. And, well, the way of... Is that what you call Kami? Kami, yes. Kami is a Shinto word. It's a very national, primitive concept, religious concept, you see? In every... Everything has its soul, and it's called Kami. And, for instance, a tree. In a tree, there is a Kami of a tree. See? Like that. So, the natural worship comes from some natural worship or some hero worship. Like that. So, this is found everywhere in primitive Buddhism, you see?

[33:41]

And, many Japanese Buddhist festivals or ceremonies have many such elements of Shinto. But, not purely Shinto, of course. And, the Buddhist idea changed some ideas of Shinto into more, you know, heartful, you see? In Shintoism, just the spirit is scared, fear. But, in Buddhism, it is given more heart, more warmth, you see?

[34:49]

That's interpreted with compassion of Buddha, like that. See? So, it changes, modifies. Yes. But, in the core, some Buddhist ceremonies come from Japanese Shintoism. Yes. So, for instance, the same thing can be practiced, either by Shinto or Buddhism. See? Yes. Yes. Oh, yes, dharma. As regards dharma, this Roshi living here is more intelligent than me. But, dharma is two meanings.

[35:53]

Dharma is just the Japanization of the Sanskrit pronunciation of dharma. Dharma. Dharma. It's the name of Bodhidharma. Bodhi. Dharma is coming from Sakyamuni Buddha. It's a founder of Zen Buddhism. Dharma has nine years, nine years of facing the world. So, the world is in the root now. See? See? Lord. Bodhichitta. He came from India. I think he is... I think we should end the talk here.

[36:58]

I think that we'll start the questions now. Mr. Murata says that if anyone would like this booklet, I welcome you. You will get copies for yourself. If any of you want it, you can leave your name, and I'll see that you get it. Also, what I think is an excellent Buddhist magazine, Young East, which he is the editor of. It only costs two dollars a year. It's an excellent magazine. If any of you are interested in that, you can get the information from one of the magazines. Thank you. Thank you very much. So, it changes...

[38:04]

I see. That's interpreted with compassion of the Buddha, like that. See? So, it changes, modifies. Yes. Thank you.

[38:26]

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