I wanted to talk about two things this morning. The first is going over what I think we're studying during this practice period, that is to say, looking at a particular theory of how our suffering arises or how we get in this pickle in the first place. And the last thing is to deal with a particular actual concrete practice that one can use when we do find ourselves deep in suffering. And you know, in some way it's kind of strange to talk about the theory first, because it

[01:00]

seems to me that the theories come after you've been practicing. I think, at least I hope, I hope Vasubandhu, who came up with a lot of this stuff in terms of the five skandhas, I hope he practiced first. That would make it easier to trust. But at any rate, apparently he was able to slow down everything enough to be able to notice the subtlest changes in consciousness and what was going on in terms of the origination of the suffering, its continuation and its cessation. You know there in Buddhism, well in what we would call today Buddhist psychology, psychology being that word that only means the study of the mind, and certainly Buddhism is steeped

[02:03]

in intricate, beautiful, sometimes seemingly illogical to my mind, description of how the mind works. And so there are many, and we've been talking about just one of them, the five skandhas. It's one of the models. There are others, the Four Noble Truths, one model. The Five Omnipresent Factors, which describes the stages of an ordinary and enlightened mind. And the Twelve-linked Chain, which Paul's been alluding to. So in terms of the five skandhas, one of the things that we, I don't list that in here

[03:04]

at mention, but the first one, which is rupa, and of course we translate that as form, but I'm not so sure that it really means what we mean when we say form, because I can say that this is a form, and this microphone's a form, this glass is a form, that lamp's a form, as if those were real independent things from my mind. But I think the technical understanding of form is something that I have self-interest in. I was thinking about this last night, and how if the director and the ENO and the work leader were to walk down the path here, same path, same scenery, they would be seeing very different things. They would each have a very different experience. Director would see that roof, thinking, oh no, that roof has to be replaced, oh how much

[04:07]

is that going to cost? Work leader would see gutters full of leaves, thinking, oh no, oh no, oh no, we have to remove those before it rains, we have to. The ENO, what would the ENO be seeing? Where are they anyway? So, each of those things, for the director, the roof, for the ENO, wherever anyone's hiding, for the work leader, the leaves and the gutters, each one of those is a form, technically, because each of those has a so-called personal self-interest for the observer. I mean, I don't notice anything that doesn't have something in it for me. That could be a threat, that could be a treat, but if it doesn't have some self-reference

[05:08]

for me, I don't notice it. I think that's technically what we mean by form. What happens is that once I notice it, it becomes an it, and I become an I. There's the observed and there's the observer. All of a sudden, my ego has arisen to meet a situation that wasn't there just a moment ago. So there's a form, which happens automatically beyond our control, and then immediately comes the feeling, what we call feeling, which again is, I think, an unfortunate word. One teacher, Carolyn Brazier, has called it Vedana, this is Vedana, and has called it a gut reaction, an instantaneous reaction. And again, that also has my self-interest in mind.

[06:08]

I have my self-interest in mind, or it does, Vedana does. It reacts to whether it's pleasant or unpleasant or neutral, and we've heard that before. For example, an example of, I want to go back to Rupa just for a second, an example of that would be cookie, cookie, cookie. So that becomes a form for me, because of Vedana, I like cookie, cookie is pleasant. And in a way, I'm not really kidding, because I think it's as simple as that, I don't think it's complicated. So then, with Vedana comes cookie, I want, I want cookie. And if there's some reason, well, if I want it, I can do many things.

[07:14]

One is, oh, yeah, that would be nice, that would be nice, but I'm going to wait. Well, if I want it and I can't get it, or if I think I can't have it, then something else might kick in, and that would be the third skanda, which we call perception. But the word it comes from is samjhana, which means consciousness that arises with something. And this is where we get in trouble, because samjhana is where we get hooked, where we get entranced, where we get mesmerized, enchanted, cookie, must have. And you notice that the subject there is missing, I, it's no longer I must have cookie, it's must have cookie, which is a way of saying that when Vedana, which is the gut reaction comes up, I'm right there.

[08:16]

Excuse me. This may sound terrible for a moment. So when Vedana comes up, I'm there. In other words, manas, consciousness, is in action. And manas, consciousness, for those who know, is I think Vasubandhu's invention. I think so. It's where the I resides. It's where the manager resides. It's where the one who takes charge, who thinks it has control, who, it's the I, it's the ego, in other words. And that's all fine until that ego is frustrated. And then, the sanjna, the local perception, pops up, the manas consciousness disappears, and the alaya consciousness arises, which is a very uncolorful way to say that Vedana wakes

[09:28]

up the ego, sanjna puts it to sleep. Vedana awakens self-consciousness, and the habit energy, the mesmerization, puts that asleep. In other words, we disappear, and we're on automatic pilot. Have you ever noticed this? I'm not just making this up. The sanjna, I think it's really great to call it the being enchanted, because if you've ever been in the throes of an addiction, could be for cookies, could be for anything, we lose our minds. We lose our minds. We lose manas. We lose a sense of myself, of what's good for me, what's bad for me. And we go on, as I said, automatic pilot, in order to get what we know will end the

[10:30]

suffering of craving. We know it. It's a contract that we sign as kids, that there are things which will end your suffering if you only have them. Of course, it never works. It never works. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't stop trying. So, some of the qualities of this sanjna, the addicted habit-driven patterns, are when associations come up. For example, some of you have heard this before, but when I came to Zen Center, I noticed that I really didn't like bald-headed people. I didn't like them. I didn't like them. I didn't like it when they came near me. And I didn't wonder why. That's just the way it was. Reality is that bald-headed people are bad.

[11:33]

They're dangerous and to be avoided. And it didn't even get to that level of thought. It was just how one behaves in the presence of bald people. Later, I realized that... I remembered that when I was little, I was at a bowling alley with some... Very good, but you're too fast. ...with some relatives that I didn't really know so much. And one of the relatives was married to somebody who... You know how they sit in this little chair and keep score with a pencil on a sheet? And there's a light on it, and it's kind of a neat table. Well, whenever that chair would become vacant, I would run sitting there. I don't know why, but I liked it. I seemed to enjoy it.

[12:39]

And one of the men there, one of the husbands, at one point picked me up rather harshly. You know, he applied a little too much pressure and lifted me out of the chair and sat me down. He was bald. I learned something that day, which stayed with me until I realized that it was mistaken. In other words, it became habituated in me. What Buddhism calls it are bijas. I love that word, a bija. A bija is a seed. I think it's a good analogy. It's a good... Is that a metaphor? I guess it's a metaphor. For something that gets stored, a behavior pattern, a certain point of view, a prejudice. And you never have to think about them. Because when you need them to rescue you from suffering, they're right there.

[13:40]

If it hurts enough, they come to the rescue to put out the fire of suffering. They're also often mistaken. And in fact, they create, in the end, more suffering than they were supposed to destroy. As you probably know. In fact, any time we really lose our minds, we're probably in trouble. And these things really only come up when we do lose our minds. If you've ever tried to argue with somebody when you were in the throes of anger, you know how rational you are. Oh, you aren't later. Passions, as I've said before, passions have their own logic. And anything we call logic serves the passions when they're around. Same thing here. In fact... Okay, so then the fifth one is vijnana, which means divided consciousness.

[14:44]

The divided vijnana consciousness. And that's where you are you, I'm me, we're not the same, we're not even close. That's an altar. I'm not. This isn't me either. And what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. Black, white, the whole business. Dual reality. Which we have a lot of practice. And it has, by this time, grown into a very powerful skill. Not so helpful. But it does have its merit. Like getting out of the way when the Benji truck is coming. That's dualistic consciousness. If we didn't have that, that'd be trouble. What I wanted to talk about by way of example is anger.

[15:46]

And I think somebody asked once, why do you always talk about anger? Why do we always seem to talk about anger when we think of an emotion? Well, I think because it's really, really powerful. Most of us experience it. It seems to be, it can get completely out of control. I don't deal with it well. You probably don't deal with it well. Groups don't deal with it well. Nations don't deal with it well. So it's a very, very powerful part of our life. And I've never found, really, any kind of practice that helped me deal with it. Until I got to Buddhism. And lo and behold, the Buddha gave a lot of attention to it. By way of my background...

[16:52]

By way of my background, I've been well trained in evoking anger. My father was, he's not any longer. A massive heart attack pretty much softened him up. But before then, he would be very, very prone to anger. And of a particularly vicious kind. Because I didn't realize this at the time, that this was the way everybody was. But it was the kind of anger that didn't just say, what you're doing there upsets me. It was, you're no good, I never have been. It was the kind of anger that goes right, right to the person. And tries to actually destroy the person. And it was rather effective. So on one side, I got very good training in how to annihilate somebody with words.

[18:01]

And of course, you have to have a lot of hate in the eyes. A lot of hate. And then, for my mother, I got a more passive approach to anger. Because she knew, if she put up any kind of resistance, that would be an incredible mistake. Because that would make father even angrier. Or if she tried to get away, that would make him even angrier. So she was passive. So I got my passive-aggressive training from my mother. And we use passive-aggressive a lot these days. Especially in religious communities. And I want to say a couple of things about that. Is that it's very complicated. It doesn't mean just passive. It means the ability to be incredibly passive with your anger. And also to be subject to outbursts of anger too. So it doesn't mean shy. It means with the ability to lash out too. And, oh, you can always tell if you're dealing with passive-aggressive behavior.

[19:08]

If you have a conversation with somebody, and they're smiling. And you leave, and you say, Ouch! What just happened? That was terrible! But you usually don't say anything because they're smiling. And if they really are that angry, it's probably not a good thing to even ask them about it. And apparently, I used to be very good at that. But I hope I'm not so good these days. At least I haven't heard any complaints about that kind of thing. The conversation that kills you with a smile. But... What else was there? Well, I think probably that's enough. So that's what I came to practice with. And so, how we usually deal with something with a powerful emotion like anger, for example, is usually when we meet anger, it hurts. That'll be the vedana, is to, Oops! Get away! Get away!

[20:10]

And then, if it continues, then samjna pops up. And all kinds of association. Associations with danger. Associations with father. It gets bigger and bigger. In other words, the seeds of my own anger start sprouting. And the thing gets bigger than it actually is. And when that happens, then we lose our minds. We get enchanted, entranced, mesmerized. And we usually do what every creature on the planet does in the face of danger. Either run away really quick, fight back, or freeze. Freeze. Like a deer in the headlights. So, those are the automatic responses. Or, what I've noticed, we certainly do it here,

[21:16]

and actually with any group I've ever been involved with. It's called triangulating. That's where, if I'm upset at you, I will go to her and complain about you. Which makes me feel a little better at first. But then when I go away, and if this person makes the big mistake and sides with me against you, that's a big problem. Because that waters my anger even more. And then I walk off feeling slightly better, only to have it all erupt again. And nothing's really changed, except I'm a little angrier. So, I wish it did work. Because it seems like such a good plan. Where you wouldn't have to actually deal with the person who's upsetting you, or with whom you're upset. So, well, in our tradition,

[22:19]

I mean, certainly the Tibetans have very definite practices with anger. In fact, what we call samjna, the, well, let me just back up one bit. The actual behavioral patterns that are fueled by habit energy, those are called samskaras. And those are the mental formations. So we've got form, feelings, perceptions, mental formations, and those are the habit energies that we always fall back on, or that come and grab us when we need them, we think, they think, and then consciousness. So, the mental formations, the habits, are in Tibetan, they're called shenpa. And in, and for us they're called samskaras.

[23:22]

And in our particular brand of Buddhism through Japan, we talk about passions. And of course, in the United States, we think passions are really bad, and we shouldn't have them. And if you were any kind of a practitioner, you would master them, subjugate them, control them, and destroy them. But in terms of ordinary Buddhist practice, that's not, no, [...] no. I mean, that doesn't do a thing. It only makes it all worse. So what you do is you actually go into the passion itself. You go right into it with your eyes open, heart open, mind open. Which takes, of course, gut, doesn't it? Because who would want to do that? Who in their right mind would want to do that? So, how we do that is we practice looking at a white piece of wall, learning the discipline of coming back to ourselves, coming back to the body, of being in charge of where our attention goes,

[24:26]

in other words, developing mindfulness, and keeping an open heart and mind, which, of course, is compassion, so that we have those two tools in order to meet afflictive mental states. Doesn't that sound clinical? I just think I'm having an afflictive mental state. So, what the practice is, is recognize, restrain, and go to the root. The three R's. Recognize, restrain, and go to the root. So, when you notice, the first thing is to recognize what's going on, which isn't easy when you're in the throes of the samskaras, the mental formations, because they're very, very strong. As I said before, they disconnect you,

[25:27]

they disconnect the mind, the manager is out of town, you're on your own, and you are on automatic pilot. So, it's very, very difficult to disconnect from an addiction. But once you notice it, that's very, very good news. In fact, once you notice anything, that's good news. And I know that for us, somehow, when we notice that we have become unconscious a little, or we notice the truth, sometimes we feel bad about that, by saying, I should have seen that before, or I should not have lost my mind, I should not have done that. But actually, that's a misunderstanding, I think, of the teaching, that whenever we notice what's actually going on, that's prajna. That's prajna itself.

[26:28]

Whenever we can see what we're actually doing, or what's actually happening, it's not lost in transience, or lost in my own personal game. And we say, oh, it's just a cookie. It's just a cookie. Or, oh my God, those are just thoughts. They're just thoughts. Or, oh, this is just a feeling. It's not the whole totality of reality. It's distinct in itself, with its own self-solid nature. So, whenever we notice anything like that, that's really good news, because that means our innate wisdom, prajna, is alive and well. So I would encourage you to rejoice. That's why we say mistakes aren't really a problem. Because once you notice a mistake, you're free. Free. Oh, so, OK. And I want to say something about...

[27:34]

Oh, then comes restraint. Restraint. This is another word we don't like. Because I think some of us, and certainly myself before, thought of restraint as closing myself down, as holding myself back, of once again being the victim, of not speaking out, of not asserting myself. And, of course, that is a samskara, too. That's an image of myself where I'm always the victim, and you must do something. But this is not what I mean. I think it's not what we mean when we say restraint. What often happens with anger is that we'll lash out, we'll run away, or we'll just stand there, freeze,

[28:37]

until it's all over, and hopefully it's over quick. So, for example, if I am angry with somebody, and this actually happens at this point in my life, I'll realize that there's something wrong in my body. It's triggered by this behavior over here, and all of a sudden I'll find that I'm... Well, thoughts won't start occurring. I'm not aware that they're occurring. They're just happening. And they're saying, What's wrong with that person? Why isn't that person more careful? Why are they embarrassing me? After all, all of this revolves around me. All of it. I hope some of it revolves around you, too. I wouldn't want to carry this all by myself. And then, if I'm not careful,

[29:41]

what I would want to do would be to say something to them. These days we call it a charge. Everybody know what I mean? When somebody says something with a charge... Oh, good. Thank God. I'm very glad. Thank you very much. That would be hard to explain. So... Which, of course, the other person instantly picks up on, unless they, of course, have been conditioned to feel nothing, ever. And that does happen. But if they haven't been conditioned that way, then they'll pick up on it. They may react in anger. They may try to withdraw. They may just freeze. So, what's happening in terms of Buddhist terms is that my little seeds of anger

[30:43]

and behaviors around anger have been brought to life by this event over here. And they start to grow. And my thinking makes them grow even faster. And they blossom. And then, if I... We call it leak. If I leak that anger in a charge onto the other person, then they, if they're not really careful, their seeds of anger start to sprout and blossom. And, of course, their thinking will increase, too, and they'll learn, usually, how to defend themselves. Because if I sense danger, I becomes very important in the equation. I must end the danger. I must save myself. Either by those three things, running, fighting, or freezing. So then the whole thing starts to grow. And the more attention that the seeds get in the plants,

[31:46]

they create more seeds. That's what plants do. They create more seeds. So, you know, all kinds of seeds are planted in the alaya, in the alaya consciousness, just waiting, waiting for the opportunity to sprout and flourish. So, you would think that if I were... if you're really upset, what you need to do is get it out. Right? Get it out. Get it out. Get the awfulness outside. And you know that makes sense. And I remember in the 60s and 70s, we would, in group work, we'd have these bats, foam bats. Some of you seem to remember that. And we would pound things and people,

[32:48]

people who annoyed us, we could pound them in a group, thinking that that got the awfulness out of here and where it belongs, on them. I really, I thought that was true. However, just, of course, Buddhism has known all along that, oh dear, if you act, enact your anger on somebody else, that only increases your anger. It doesn't diminish it. In fact, it causes more. And not only by making more seeds that will occur or erupt in the future, not to mention the nasty, icky, sticky karma, it will have to be repaid. Now or later. It doesn't matter. It waits. So, even these days now,

[33:50]

in psychological circles, so I'm told, that they know that the expression of anger at people really, it doesn't work. It doesn't help. It doesn't diminish your anger. In fact, it increases it, and it hurts the other person. So, what do you do? So what do you do? Do you swallow it? Apparently not. Apparently that doesn't help either. So I was reading Thich Nhat Hanh, who has written quite a lot of stuff lately on communities, people in communities, and how can we possibly live together without inflicting horrible harm to each other? So one of the things he talks about with anger is that it's necessary to express it, but not by smacking the other person. What he uses as a formula is,

[34:51]

I'm really angry, and I need help. And then leave, unless the person can meet you at that level. Often I think the brother can't. And the Buddha, certainly before Thich Nhat Hanh, in the Vinaya said, whenever you come to a situation where there's biting or harsh speech, leave, leave. In other words, protecting yourself against watering the seeds of your anger, cultivating those seeds. So, I don't know about you, but I've never dared do that. I think I've mentioned before, somewhere, that I worked with a Christian priest once who, for some reason, had the capacity to say ouch whenever anybody made a verbal, under the table, dig at him. I would watch it, because people are like that with clergy. Especially if they feel overpowered

[35:54]

or whatever, I don't know, disenfranchised or something. They will often dig, like a passive-aggressive remark, for example. And he would always say, he would say, ouch. I will always remember that. And I've never duplicated it. I think maybe once I dared to say that. Because my training, unfortunately, was if you admit you're hurting, they'll kill you. Then they'll kill you. And I apologize for the harshness of that for people who have not been conditioned that way. But for those of you who might have been, I hope, I think you probably understand how painful that is. So, if Thich Nhat Hanh, and maybe I'll have the courage someday to be able to say, I'm feeling really angry and upset now. I need a time out. I need a time out. As it is now, I usually try to escape.

[36:55]

Which rarely works. But it may work. So I'll keep trying. I'm kidding about that, of course. So at any rate, so we've got recognize. You recognize what's happening. My chest with anger. It could be any emotion, actually. It could be sorrow. It could be joy. Anything. So you recognize what's happening when you notice, there's this horrible, horrible feeling in my stomach. There's a tightness in my chest. I can hardly breathe. There's all this thinking that wants to blame the other person for my suffering. If we have time for questions after, I hope somebody asks me if you caused my suffering. But I don't want to go into that right now. So you recognize what's actually happening. Physically and mentally.

[37:58]

All the thoughts that are making you at fault. The thoughts that are bringing me. How dare you be like this with me. So the ego gets very, very big and inflated. And then it disappears. And all of a sudden, I'm doing the same old behavior. The same old behaviors which I seem to have no control over. So once you notice that, then that's prajna. That's wisdom. And then, and then you refrain by not leaking, not lashing out, but maybe being able to say, I'm really upset or I'm really hurting and I need a little time right now. That's restraint. And then, then the third one, the last one is going to the root of the so-called problem. And you would think that the root is in the other person.

[39:00]

But alas, it isn't. The root of the problem was actually in my own mind. There was pain, apparently, pain at first, but then everything else that followed came from my mind, my mind. The seeds of anger, the seeds of fear were in my mind and they were activated and sprouting and blossoming. So, what returning to the root is coming back to me, coming back to what's really happening. And the root of the suffering isn't up here. It's not really in your head. Because the thoughts are just thoughts and they only do what they do, which is come and go, come and go, come and go. But where, what's really happening is where the energy is. And the energy is not in your head. The energy is in the body. You know the four foundations of mindfulness? Body is body, breath is breath.

[40:03]

That's where the root of suffering is. And what you do in returning to the root is to... One teacher calls that when you see the thoughts, the thoughts are like bubbles and you touch the bubbles of thought with the feather of your awareness, which is using gentleness and compassion. It means not clobbering them or trying to eradicate them because that never helps. That only feeds them. So you gently touch them with your awareness and you label it thinking, just thinking. That's all it is, just thinking. And then you take your attention to the present moment. And the way you do that in any situation is to become aware of your present moment. You follow your breath. Because if you are aware of your breathing, you are present. You can't be anywhere else if you're aware of breathing in and breathing out. Slow breath, fast breath,

[41:05]

doesn't matter. Long breath, doesn't matter. Breath is presence. Because life is real. So you follow your breath into your body where the energy is making all that discomfort, the misery that you want to get out and to put it where it belongs, on them. But you don't do that. So the spiritual practice here, the Buddhist practice, is to go to where the actual energy is, the afflicted energy, the painful energy. And you put your attention to it and you keep bringing your attention to it. I remember, and by now you must remember too, Leslie kept saying, kept saying to me, can you stand what you're feeling? Can you stand what you're feeling? And I said, no, I can't. Why should I? It's awful. But now, with this practice, well, of course it makes sense. Because that's where the action is.

[42:07]

That's where our energy is, our life energy. And it just happens to be in a suffering place right now. And so if you put your awareness to it, and just feel it as you breathe in and out, and keep bringing it back, because you don't want to be there, keep bringing it back, then it changes. Which I hope you all know this. That it changes, and what happens is that the energy moves on. It gets like, almost as if it's reabsorbed into the body. If you leak it, it doesn't help. But if it gets reabsorbed into the body, you can apply it to spiritual practice. I think, you know, it's just raw energy.

[43:09]

Just raw energy. And I think it resides, or it gets attracted to chakras, actually. Not that I know much about them, but I do know when whatever they are, are triggered inside me. I mean, I'm pretty aware when I feel like my survival is at stake. Even if it means arriving to the kitchen and the chips are gone. I'm pretty much aware when the sexual chakra is the abode of that raw energy. Perhaps you are too. I mean, not about mine, but about your own. I'm pretty aware of when my energy is in the power chakra, where I feel powerless, or overlooked, or unseen. The recipe for disaster,

[44:11]

not only for me, but for those whom I suspect are not seeing me. It's really pathetic. But it's there, nonetheless. And I'm also aware when this raw energy is in my heart, as well. It's open, it's empty, it's warm, accepting, blah, blah, blah. And elsewhere, in the other chakras. So when afflicted emotional states happen, I think the energy just needs to be appreciated and held, and be held. And then, at least what I find, is that the whole business changes. You no longer need someone to blame, because they aren't the problem. My last word on this is we started this whole endeavor, the Buddha,

[45:12]

so that he could be free from suffering. That's all. Apparently that's all he wanted. Of everything he could have, that's all he wanted. And I think we, as the Buddha's disciples, deserve nothing less than that. I think all it takes is a big heart, compunction, that's not the right word, chutzpah is the right word, and courage, which of course is another word for heart. So that's all I have to say. Do we have any time? What I'd like to talk about is the practice. I want to make sure that I was clear. The theory, you can read about that stuff. So any questions about that practice? Michael? Well,

[46:28]

you know, Buddhist practice says that you are the cause of your own suffering. As insulting as that is, if it's true, then you have no right to do that to them. You have no right. Confronting, confronting is kind of a harsh word for me. I think it's more, I mean when you lose your mind, you want to confront. You know, you must, you know, cargo, dovenda es. I don't know where that came from. But it's like, Carthage must be destroyed. Most excellent, thank you. So, did I speak to that? No,

[47:44]

no, no, no, no. No, if I, you know, like, what causes, okay, so, what causes my anger? Was it you, because of what you just did? Well, sort of, but not really. I mean, you're one of, you know, a thousand different causes that have brought this moment about. And so, and then I had a reaction to the behavior, and it happened to be, the reaction happened to be sprouting anger seeds. So, in a way, no, it's not really your fault. It happens, you know, it's my, it's what's going on in my mind, and I have to direct my practice towards my mind, you know, to free myself from the affliction, not by killing or blaming, but by holding the energy that has, all of a sudden, constellated or come together down here, which also, which is very uncomfortable, which, so that also triggers my mind

[48:52]

trying to manage it by coming up with reasons, excuses, you know, blaming, and all that kind of stuff. Is that cool? You can, what you can do with the other person, is what I'm saying, of, I don't know if you want to go as far as to say, you know, when you did that, because the minute you say, you, you have an enemy before you. So, at least in my mind. So it's, it's more, if you could possibly say, I'm feeling really angry right now or upset or whatever, and I need a time out, then, then we can talk about this later, okay? I think that's, I think that's a healthy way to deal with, with it. But if you're going to duke it out, it only, it only increases and, what, what's the word? Reinforces the samskara, the behavior patterns, the habits. But, that'll have to do.

[49:53]

Richard and then Matthew. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I'm not a, I'm not a yoga person. Although I have heard about it. Yeah, well, it's, it's where you're sitting there and I think you have to sit pretty still. I don't know, maybe you could go for a walk. And, it's just, it's in your gut. You know, and I, and some, some of us aren't so, like, if somebody had told me this 20 years ago, I wouldn't know what they were talking about. What do you mean? What do you mean feeling down here? There's no, there's no feeling down here. If I feel anything, it's up here. And again, it's your fault that I'm feeling this way. so, I, with years of

[50:55]

doing this stupid thing that they kept saying, you know, follow your breath, follow your breath, watch your tummy rise and fall, watch your tummy rise and fall. What that did, unbeknownst to me, was to be able to get my awareness my mind down into my body, which it never felt comfortable being for most of my life. So, so, what you do is you just, when the thoughts come that try to make, try to allow you to escape from your body, you just notice that, and, oh, oh, there they are, there they are, and go with your breath down, and just, just, be aware of your belly rising and falling. At that point, your mind and your body are one. You're not just a disembodied mind. So, and the feeling is right there, it really is, and it can be tightness, I don't know, it can be that, that shakiness, or,

[51:55]

it's really uncomfortable if it's an afflictive, nasty emotion, and you just keep going back to it. You don't want to, I don't like this, this is really, this is really awful, I'd rather have something to eat. Oh, no, and you keep going back, going back, wish I had a TV. You go back, and you go back, you know what I mean? We always try to escape it, but we just keep going back to rising and falling of the belly, if that's any help. Does that answer it? I just gave a short follow-up, that's how it is, that's the idea, that's how it is, that's how it is, that's how it is, that's how it is. Oh, that's only if you squeeze it down, you hate it. Yeah. No, see, you try to bring compassion to it, which is, I'm hurting, I'm hurting here, I'm hurting. And, being kind to it, and not hating, if you bring hate into it, it makes it, it's like the fire extinguisher

[52:59]

that has gasoline in it, instead of, you know, really is, really is, hate, hate is really wicked. Matthew? I was wondering if there's some emphasis on the way the practice of this has turned towards a positive experience, and a negative experience, so, what can we do in order to object, to the trigger, to the phenomenon, and the outcome. I think, you know, if you listen to this constantly, and your habit is, you have to be, if you want to be, there's quite a variety

[53:59]

of responses, and experiences, collectively, and this is emphasizing the self-reflective portion of this instruction, and justifying it, if you can say, I don't even need to, if you could observe, or if you can find a way, to grasp, this so-called trigger, and, and, yeah, [...] thanks, yep, that's the danger of, talking about something in public, because people have, because each of our conditioning is so different, and we hear different things, and, like for some person, they say, how do you, how do you deal, with this apple? And the teacher says, if it's in a group, well, you put it up, and if that person's mistake,

[55:01]

is to always put things up, that was the wrong answer, you know, so, that's why it's good to have a, relationship with a teacher, where, they know who you are, and they know that, oh, you don't need an up, you need a down, so, don't get me wrong here, the behavior that I saw, here, that triggered my own seeds of anger, it doesn't mean, that that behavior wasn't malicious, or that sooner or later, someone isn't going to, well, the person whose behavior that was, that is harmful, for example, I have to deal with my own stuff in that, or else I won't be free, and, they have to too, because they're not free, what I know about communities is, sooner or later, if nothing happens, oh, the Buddha has such a great story about, about that, but it's a little too long,

[56:01]

but what communities do, is somebody who causes pain in the community, and no one dares, to confront it, or mention it, or bring it up, pretty soon, not pretty soon, it can go for several years, five, it can go for five years, before the community starts pushing them out, pushing them out, which is really sad, really sad, so I didn't mean to infer that, there isn't something out there, because there is, Jesse? I don't really know. How, do you expand, the, the, the, the the, [...]

[57:02]

the, There was an album that was released in the mid-1970s, and it was just a little too tough. I was like, yeah, it's a little too tough. There's something about that, and it's a little bit, I don't know, I think that would have been more of a possibility. Are you an actor? I don't know if that's the right question. I don't know. I'm thinking I'm an actor, yeah. I don't know if that's the right question. Well, I think that's what it was. I think I have to feel that there's something, you know, other than just a job. I don't know if I get it. I'm not really an actor. No. I don't know.

[58:21]

There's something about all of that. How does one actually address, or how does one actually kind of monitor the actions of another person? Or the situation. How does one kind of, how does that feel to the other person? Does that feel to them? How does it feel to you? Like, I know it's my specialty, but it's still malicious. I know it's my specialty, but you still have to deal with it. How does one kind of monitor that? Well, I think,

[59:25]

at least what I know from myself, is that the more I develop a sense of compassion and willingness to stay, which is very difficult. Often meditation is learning to stay, is practicing staying and not fleeing, as hard as that is sometimes. I think if you stay just a little past, yes, that your behavior is harmful. If you stay just a few minutes longer, you'll see, oh my God, I can see you're suffering. Which isn't as satisfying, in an ego sense, as it's your fault. But I think it frees the ego to be able to become aware of the other person's suffering. Suffering. Is that the...

[60:34]

Well, I think that's where we meet. You know, we had a diversity training thing here this summer, and they showed a film of, there were Hispanic people and African-American people, and two white... I'm sorry, I don't know the words. We called them two white guys. Huh? European. Well, I don't know if they were from Europe. I don't know if they were from Europe. So, anyway, we had a bunch of people who, at least on the outside, looked really different. But of course, genetically, there's not enough difference genetically to make any difference at all. But my point is that there was all kinds of carrying on

[61:38]

and angry and victimizing and stupid things said, and it was really very painful to watch. Oh, God, this is terrible. Oh, no. And I'm just like them. It was a horrible experience until we got to the end. And one of the men, who was... I forget his name. Carlos, that's right. He was there, and he had a black background behind him, and he was talking about his kids, how he was afraid for his children. And it hurt so much, him, that his children would have to go through the stuff. And then... Excuse me. Then I could feel it.

[62:40]

Then I knew... I could meet him there, in that suffering. The anger, not so much. But in the pain that we share as people, that's where I think we meet. Oh, goodness. Yes? Does anger always have to hurt? Well, we know technically it's a secondary emotion, some say. But it arises to protect us from hurt, or threat, or danger. Of course, the ego is that too. The ego is a defense against hurt. Yeah. Greg? You spoke about these three reactions. Loving away,

[63:43]

or increasing what you get in life, or lashing back. And then later on, you mentioned the teachings of the Buddha about loving away, prostitution, or afflictive emotions, or delusions, which guilt is like loving away. That's wanting to clarify. There's a space in there to make that out. I know, you know, I was trying to communicate something to somebody. However, I'm still hoping to develop loving away. Oh yes, yeah. It's in there, and I was surprised when I saw it. Because I was surprised and said, oh, thank goodness. Thank goodness there is a way we can get out of this, so that we can breathe again. He didn't say how. He didn't say, would you please excuse me? I can't breathe here.

[64:45]

He didn't say how, but the whole Vinaya business is to protect the monks. To protect them. And to support and cherish, contain. So I don't know. I don't know. I do know that if if I'm not skillful, and I stay, I think I will cause more harm. Which? Oh yes, yeah. Time out. Something like that. Something deliberate. I mean, me personally, I don't really have good exit lines. Like, I usually just disappear. Don't know why. But, so, I think it is important to say, you know, I'm sorry, I need a time out. And to come back later,

[65:45]

once the charge is gone. Then you can get to what's really happening, which is usually pain. Simple pain. Simple. Not being heard, or whatever. Can you? Oh. How much time we got? Oh. You let me know, okay? And I'll watch to see if anybody's nodding off. Oh, coming back later. Oh boy, what a blessing that is. Some folks you get the impression that's not a good idea. Or I don't know what it is. Where it's dangerous, so you don't. And so that means you carry this around for a long time. Until you work with it as practice and maybe can resolve that in yourself.

[66:47]

But there's still karma. There's still karma that waits to be resolved. So anybody who invites you to come back, or if you invite somebody to come back, I think it's a blessing. Because then, well, it's whenever there's any conflict, there are three, usually, often, sometimes, maybe, three responses. One is to, if hard feelings have passed, between two people, they have the option of kissing and making up. Well, this didn't really happen. We're really just friends, aren't we? Dee-dee-dee-dee. Until the next time. You can say, so long, I'm out of here, and break off the relationship. Or it can be a call towards deeper intimacy. And that, of course, would involve coming back without the charge and getting down to what was really happening.

[67:50]

Anything? Who was that? The chairman? Who was that? Who was that? Yeah. That's a really good point. And apparently, the content,

[68:56]

like some of the stuff that I've mentioned today about my own self and background, that's content. And actually, it doesn't have much, if anything, to do with the actual practice, the Buddhist practice, because the content doesn't matter so much. It's the process. You know, it's just the raw feeling, just the thoughts. I mean, it doesn't really matter what they are. Actually, that's for therapy. Actually, that's the therapeutic arena, where you actually track down and try to understand what the details are that go into your suffering so that it can be healed. And I think that's really terrific. And I love that myself. I love doing that kind of work. And there's an easier way, I think. I think. No, I don't want to say it that way. I want to say, I think some things are best treated by a therapeutic approach

[69:57]

with an open-hearted, loving, skillful person. And some things are dealable. Dealable? Dealable. Dealable. I don't know what the word is. Through practice. Like, some things practice doesn't touch, I think. I think our practice doesn't touch some things. Yes, I mean, because the mind thinks its content is really, really, really important, but it's not really, because it just produces thoughts. So the practice is to go right to the root of it. Not to all the causes, but to the root. Does that make sense? It's a different approach. Absolutely. Right, right, right.

[71:01]

Well, what's in it for me, of course, is if you ask that in a Zen place, then the teacher says, um, Shannon, come closer. Right? Because in terms of, I think, ultimate reality, there is nothing in it for you. Or me. In fact, my thinking, if there is, is that one of the core problems. In fact, maybe the root. That I, that sense of self, that wants to win, that wants what it wants, doesn't want what it doesn't want. We live in a bigger reality than that. I don't know if that sounds helpful at all. Zen practice, I don't think, is interested so much in making, building an ego, a better ego, a better sense of self, greater self-esteem. I think it's about going beyond the ego. Going beyond the box

[72:03]

of who you think you are, who you think you should be. And the way to do that is to enter deeply into the suffering itself. Which would be to come back, using the breath, to go back into the body where the suffering resides. That'll be 50 cents. So, Koso, what you're saying is things happen in the realm of the ego, right? In the realm of the suffering. Something happens and it touches your own suffering. Somebody else's suffering, and so is suffering. Meeting of suffering. Ego-meeting. So, then, I guess you will not confuse what I wanted to say here. This stays as a sankara in the body, right? The seeds are in the body. It's a body-mind. Yeah, body-mind, yeah.

[73:04]

So, the idea is when you look at it and confront it and know that it will happen again. It happens with you, and it can happen with next year or somebody else. That's it. So, the way to, how can I say, not let the seeds grow again is to get your own technique to confront this person, not confront this person, run and run. It's very personal, right? But it's just to be aware that the people realize addiction will always be there. Absolutely. So, it's there, but you just don't water it. Well said. It's very, very simple, but very complicated. Good. Yeah. The simple things that kill us, don't they? Right. I was going to say that.

[74:06]

That's good. That's good. Yeah, it's the idea of not watering, of putting the water somewhere else, like into compassion, or into where the real problem is, where the energy is. Shoot. Oh, Suzuki Roshi, apparently, said, you know that trouble you have right now? You'll have it for the rest of your life. I find that oddly comforting, but at least it's going to be one that I'm familiar with, that I can practice with. Yeah. Colin, can you wait? Okay. Thanks very much.

[74:58]

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