This morning I'd like to talk about the way I practice my orioke. I have a certain amount of trouble with the orioke because I've never been taught how to do the orioke. When we were giving lessons around here, I never attended the lesson. And I started, though, doing a kind of version of the Oreo Keep very early because we would eat with Suzuki Roshi in the kitchen at Sokoji. You know, I did strange things like pour tea into a soup bowl and flush it around with a spoon and drink it. So I did the same thing. Keep did it, I'd try it. So I did that a long time and then I had a pretty good idea what the Orioki was about.

[01:06]

Of course, in restaurants, it looks funny when you're eating something and you slosh your coffee around the window. But I didn't do that too often. But anyway, we had lessons down here at the Sahara eventually, and began doing sort of real Orioki, pretty close to what we do now. Some of you may remember, I drove a few students out And after a while, we got used to it. But at that time, we were just... I think actually at that time, I was involved in a rapid translation, a system, a translation of the meal chant we do now. And still do. I never... I really should have made it better. Anyway... So I just, when I got up here on the altar and I had to eat, I didn't know how to do it.

[02:14]

I just did what Suzuki Roshi did, you know, sort of watch, you know, the way you do. And so that was all right. But of course, I know Suzuki Roshi's habits and how to do it. And also, you don't know it exactly because the Uki is actually rather complex. I've been doing it for a lot of time now. and keep finding that there's more space in it than I'm participating in something. So then I went to a heiji, and they assumed I knew how to do it, so they didn't teach me there either. And so I just got into zendo, and I started looking. So the way I do the arioki is rather the way Suzuki-roshi did it. Plus, the way the monks who sat on each side of me every now and then of the heiji did it. Plus, some influence from Reb.

[03:14]

Oh, Angie criticized Siddhi. She's helping with, oh, you shouldn't do this. Anyway. So, I mean, I don't do it so badly. It's all right. It's pretty close to being, right? But it's interesting because I don't have any verbal, very little anyway, verbal picture of how it should be done. So I have nothing to, when I face a sort of problem in the Orioki, I don't know, this may sound crazy to face a problem in the Orioki, but I face some sort of problem. Now, do I pick that up? Do I talk with chopsticks or... Anyway, that kind of thing, which works. You know, you have five fingers and have these bowls. What works? And if I'd ever had a verbal kind of picture, description of what it is, then I could say, ah, that's what you're doing.

[04:25]

But I don't have any, so I look at the red CDs now. And I used to. Now I pretty much have it looked up. Anyway, if I also knew exactly how the orioke should be done, well, as much as it is to be known exactly, and also did the orioke just like that, you know, just doing it the way the people around me did it, That would be sort of equivalent to the eighth lumi, the eighth stage of a bodhisattva practice. Eighth stage, so-called eighth stage.

[05:28]

Eighth stage doesn't mean you're eight stages above the first stage, or people who haven't even started, but rather that At this stage, you can actually begin to practice with other people. So it means that you have some insight into how other people feel, both in the sense of their... Their problems, say, as ordinary problems, and their problems as maybe, say, divine problems. Their higher faculties and lower faculties. So you see both. And you see how mostly they define everything that happens to them in terms of their lower, not lower or higher, but some more karmically involved situations.

[06:33]

You, the bodhisattva of the eighth stage, sees both, but responds to the lower, but knows the higher. So if the people around him are doing such and such, he just does such and such. Even consciously, though he has a kind of you might say, vision of Buddhism, he has no idea of Buddha anymore, no even idea of how the Yoyoki perfectly should be done. Because he sees both sides and practices completely with others, the process purifies. Again, pure, I don't know what word to use, because the way we use pure in Buddhism has nothing to do with impure.

[07:41]

We need something more like complete. Anyway, he makes more complete, maybe, or pure. actions of the people around him. And his own practice is exactly the same as the practice of the people around him. But yet, as his practice, as the practice of the people around him get better, we know his practice gets better. That's what's called the eighth stage of one aspect, the eight stage, eight woman, sometimes defined as the stage at which you reach your permanent abode, where you can't be moved, you can't be disturbed.

[08:46]

So we were talking before about suffering and how You know, the famous phrase is, what's a hair on the hand of one person? Or a sage or a bodhisattva is the same as a hair in the eye. Same situation that most people are able to ignore. The bodhisattva sees the suffering and the We talked about how do you become strong enough, how is your practice ready to see the suffering and accept the suffering of everyone. Anyway, at this stage, because you can do it, you have an insight into people. Well, again, last time we talked about maybe how if you're, say, a rich person, rich man, you can't, if you don't have any idea that you're rich, just live quite contentedly, you know, on your pile.

[10:11]

There's no way in which you can be free of being rich. You have to know the situation of being rich and poor. before you can be free of your situation. And so we have to know our own karmic situation by neutral qualities we have in the usual sense and what problems go with them and how they can benefit others. When you see that and you begin to see how you can practice requires a kind of minutely alive consciousness that can almost weave between these obstructions. You begin to see more and more space between the obstructions.

[11:14]

So actually you perceive the space and not the obstructions. Anyway, at this point you have the problem, as some of you noticed already, of the relative and the absolute, the pure and the impure. You can see how impure, maybe, how karmically conditioned you are. So then you have the idea of, ah, yes, now I've sensed that Now I can see, you know, that space, that... that great being which can't do staying. At this point, uh...

[12:20]

You know, it's useful. You have to be able, as doing the orioke in my way, you know, not knowing what you're doing, it's good to be able to practice that way, just doing it as the situation is. But it also would be useful if I knew exactly more about how the orioke was to be done, but was free from that, those ideas. And likewise, much of Buddhism is that way. So how can we talk about something like Tozan's five ranks in that way, free from such a description as the five rank, but at the same time ready to use it when it's necessary? give us a sense of movement in our practice, some sense that doesn't allow us to be so complacent.

[13:35]

One of the difficulties is our great feeling isolation, not only from our, what Sukersi says, calls our innermost request or our deeper self or something like that, but also from our society and our just ordinary, everyday society. And the opportunity for each of you to perhaps be president of the United States doesn't decrease that isolation much, nor the fact that you have one vote doesn't decrease that isolation. We don't, we really, it's amazing how, how primitive the current ideas we have of participation in our society are.

[14:49]

Actually, our participation in our society is much more sophisticated than that. But our ideas about how we participate in our society are pretty primitive. Partly because we think of us doing it, us voting, me voting, me being president, having something else. But our real way of participating in our society is just exactly like doing the orioke, just like the people around you. Sounds maybe a little funny, because that means in whatever situation you are, you do it just like the people around you. And so nothing gets improved if we're interested in improvement.

[15:50]

But you have to have some way to not just depend on yourself. If you depend on yourself, you can't do anything. You have to depend on everybody. How do you enter into work with everybody? And the other side is true, too. You don't have some feeling. Some real feeling of... being an effective part of your society, it's pretty hard to practice illusion. It's pretty hard to live your life. It's very crippling to feel that society is sick and there's nothing I can do about it. It's true, maybe it's sick, but there is a lot you can do about it. and you don't see how really completely and amazingly effective you are.

[17:03]

If you're in a muddle, of course, you know, you're in a muddle. If you're practicing with everyone, that's not being in a muddle. That's very clearly practicing with everybody. My model is the same as his model. It's only different than that. Zen Center, from one point of view, isn't a Buddhist community that we've inherited from Japan, China, partly from India. It's just the simple extension of one man's selflessness. You know, it's as if there's just one man who just came here and lived in a Kafkaesque tower on Bush Street. If you ever passed Sokoji before, you knew Zen Center was there. This funny building with these knobby towers, you know, up there, and rusty, sort of half-painted, no windows.

[18:19]

Who would have thought a Zen master was living up there? A room, little thing, a big, big couple of tatamis. His wife and everything. He lived there. A lot of years. Eight years. Nine years. Anyway, he just lived there. The same will happen to you if you actually know how to practice Buddhism, how to live exactly like everyone else, but yet live with all of you existing, not just your karmic personality.

[19:21]

And wherever you go, some situation like this will actually occur around you. You're a dentist and a barber. Sort of like instead of having a monk shave your head, you let your barber shave your head. Wherever you go, even if you don't have a zendo or some place to practice, your people will have some feeling. In that space, If you're practicing, the whole country can fit in.

[20:26]

Anyway, you have a very real part of your society when you practice like this, even if you just stay in Tassajara forever. You don't have to think about, now I'm affecting my society. Think that way. So when we come to this point of seeing our karmic dire patch, the idea of the pure, the relative and the absolute, comes up. So when that comes up, then you need an antidote for that problem. We don't mean relative or absolute or pure and impure.

[21:33]

So I think Tozan's five ranks are useful. Tozan, you know, he's the toe of Soto, the founder of Soto school in China, more or less. And he put together this Five Rants, which was kind of a Zen version of Huayen and Tendai philosophy. Dogen, you know, he studied at Maokie, and his way of understanding Buddhism is very Tendai. His practice is Zen. It's a pretty good combination, actually.

[22:37]

Tendai tried, as Reb pointed out at the talk the other day, tried to put together all of the teachings of Buddhism. Anyway, so the five ranks are... Half koan and half philosophy. So a little bit slippery and confusing, but still rather useful. And I won't go through all of them, but the first one, it was you. You see emptiness. You see, I guess, it's generally translated something like the real within the apparent. You have a circle. You can't remember what's in this circle. I had lots of drawings.

[23:40]

Suzuki Roshi talked about this particular thing a lot in 1961. I have lots of notebooks full of drawings and circles. He really should get them mixed up, too. He'd draw them on a blackboard, and then he'd go look in his book and shade it in or erase it. And pretty soon his hand would be covered with chalk. And then he'd look for the eraser, and then he'd drop it. It was wonderful. I used to get so confused, you know, because I didn't know what he was talking about and why his hand was covered with chalk. Finally, after the lecture was over, I'd ask that the blackboard be saved, and I'd ask Virginia to go down and copy it. There she'd come back and go, and she'd copy it off. On those notes, I have scribbled on the side something right about why go from master to master when there's no place to go.

[24:41]

The grass blown by the wind points in only two ways. I don't know what I meant when I wrote it. The grass blown by the wind points in only two ways. I have that scribble beside me circled. The first, anyway, is you see the actual face in our life. But that's some problem because then when you, you can't make sense of why we have, why this world isn't such a mess, you know, why it's so difficult to live in the city, to live in a more complicated situation. And that rather undoes you. So the second stage is the second rank.

[25:50]

It's seeing that form is empty. Like maybe in the first stage, you look in a mirror and you only see your ordinary face and you don't recognize it. But in the second stage you recognize it. As empty. In this stage you should be ready to stop practicing Buddhism. Give up Zen. Now, Dogen says that this is where Dogen's pray, cast away mind and body, applies. Drop away mind and body.

[26:59]

In the first stage, you recognize emptiness. Second stage, you recognize everything is emptiness. Form is emptiness. You recognize your staining. as impure, activity as empty, as also pure. You know, we can say that, and you can understand what I mean, but how many of you actually can cast away mind and body? free from the karma. Anyway, the third stage then is bodhisattva then doesn't shy away from the world of the six senses.

[28:07]

He enters completely into it. Then all those koans about the dust of the world and all that. That's this koan pertaining to this kind of situation. These five ranks are also used by both Rinzai and Soto. I guess Rinzai, they're called the Gōi koans. Anyway, I don't know exactly the Rinzai system, But sometimes they're considered the highest of the theories of koans. Anyway, both token rings I use is five grams. Anyway, in the third view, I think it generally translated something like, but coming from within the real.

[29:13]

Anyway, just enter into your situation. This stage, it's the same as the Eighth Dun, more or less. Just do it. And the fourth stage, You know, there's complete effortlessness. Kamsara nirvana, same thing. There's just exactly where you are is the fusion of everything. And there's no doubt, no question that I've given it Everything is in.

[30:19]

This stage may be emphasized as the most perfect being. The fullness of what it is to be alive, free from the idea of being and non-being. In this stage, you still have skill and need. You still employ maybe strategic brain to talk about wisdom. But it's not different from ultimate, indeterminate, undetermined mind. people around you, in this stage you're really participating in your society completely. There's no difference between what you want to do and what other people want to do, and you seem to be doing what other people want you to do, and they seem to do everything you want to do.

[31:41]

There's no effort, just the wheel of the Dharma is getting turned. I think generally the phrases like snow in a silver bowl, white bird in the snow, is applied to this stage. The last stage is no longer even a strategic brain you know use completely you're based on empty and everybody around you no longer even acts through they ought to share

[32:51]

the same unit that seems being in not it's the greatest state it nor rests on non-being but actually beyond being a non-being this is how I in the last, particularly the last three or four years that Ukyoshe's life saw Suzuki. Very close to what we mean by entering nirvana. Being dead or alive or active or inactive are exactly the same. Everything turns by itself.

[34:10]

Through this kind of practice, you can actually participate with not you. You are able to enter into the great being. In a particular sense, it's a real way to participate in our society. Tsurugi Roshi used to say, to make our society more human. But it looks like, when you're starting out, like we talked yesterday, that you're trying to get free of your karma. That's first. You do have to see what your karma actually is. and then how to understand the world and how your processes work, five skandhas, etc.

[35:15]

But you don't use the dharmas. That's samsara. The dharmas use you, nirvana. Though, as I said yesterday, a man, when asked why the air is everywhere, he just kept fanning himself. Presumably, she was asked by a great scholar of Buddhism one time, I don't remember exactly when it was complicated. I would rather mean it was bad if it was so complicated. Something like, I used to think, the scholar said, that there was being and non-being.

[36:40]

but also not non-being. And then something like that. And then not not non-being, but now I realize it's also not [...] non-being. He did some trick like that. He said to Suzuki Roshi, what do you think? And Suzuki Roshi just went on eating. I don't know what the scholar thought about it. Are there some questions you would like to talk about? Yeah. If so, we are ready to ask a question.

[37:49]

Yeah, the latter is better. There's some kind of strategy involved, of course, in conceiving of the five scandals. producing our experience to irreducibles. And there's some strategy in the five realms, I said, in which we could practice the thought of enlightenment. But the third realm was emptiness. And if our strategy is always based on emptiness, then you can use some strategy.

[38:56]

So we all, too, have to, at this particular stage in Zen Center's life, have to use some strategy to ensure its survival if we're going to have a place to practice. But if we're attached to Zen Center surviving, then we might as well not be practicing Zen. Our strategy to save even Buddhism or to turn the wheel of the Dharma has to be based on emptiness. So it shouldn't make a whit of difference whether we lose Tassajara or lose Green Delft or whatever. Still, we should make some effort to create a place where we can practice, which requires some strategy. But if the strategy is based completely, really, it doesn't make any difference whether you have Green Yeltsin or not.

[40:05]

Then you can use some strategy. And also, It turns out to be some advantage and you wouldn't expect it because people you're being strategic with can't really believe you really don't care. So they feel sorry for you, you know, and they start trying to help you instead of fighting with you. That's just a byproduct. The same way you're making a baby. I don't know, but I bet your baby starts getting new teeth when it's about six years old.

[41:16]

She said that I said some point that our problems can benefit others and how how can we see that our problems benefit others it's interesting to me to have what I say repeated back because I said oh did I say that I'm actually I'm quite sure from that I didn't say it but you know I You know, I sometimes implied it, but it was in the back of my mind, like a muse of what I'm saying. Often I don't say what I'm thinking. You know, just some muse. But sometimes you hear the muse rather than what I'm saying. It comes back. So... I think you just trust your problem.

[42:50]

Yeah. Lately, when I'm sitting and I'm practicing with you, and I can't explain, when I see you walking around and I talk to you, and I ask a question, and I am so curious to see what you've got for your voice, to be able to follow you. I don't know who you're fighting with. Maybe somebody. Yeah. Yes, say that again, please.

[44:14]

Yeah, between what and what? Mm-hmm. Yes. You can see. [...] No. Everything. Everything you say is true.

[45:41]

Okay. Yeah. Economic management. I believe we're going to have to learn these things.

[46:47]

You said it earlier, too. We are not supported by these things. We don't know where they're actually going to go. We can't help that. I'm sorry we're not going to let go. We are not supported by these things. We don't know where they're actually going. We can't help that. It's just like now, Mr. Joseph Lang, and I'm just feeling it's just fantastic what you're doing, especially when you're in a situation like this. That's the whole point of this program, is just to help you learn. And I believe that there's a lot of people who do this very closely, and we're just supporting them. And I hope that's the problem that's causing you what you're doing. And I hope that's the problem that's causing you what you're doing. Yeah, I know that. When you start to speak to the people in the area, they are extremely mindful of you.

[48:15]

They are becoming more and more interested in the sector. The industry needs to develop with us. The sector needs to develop with us in order to start doing it. It's the best practice for people to grow out of a little bit of self-destruction, further building, further innovation. It's a part of personal life. There is not much change in the profession. When you start to get close to what I see as my work, it's very special and important. I do not believe him. He was such a good guy. Yeah. He was a good guy. He said... He was a good guy. He was a good guy. He was a good guy. I believe that we are developing the hope of the future and the greater good.

[49:35]

But I have quite a lot of interest in you. To be dependent on people who aren't necessarily adherents of Buddhism is something we should do. That's the practical first. Who's supporting you?

[50:37]

Where's Cincinnati getting its money from? If you want to test this idea fully, you know, go to Los Angeles. And just start living in Los Angeles somewhere. And don't work. And don't do anything with practice Zaza in a room. And after one month, send us a letter. Ask us, or tell us what you need. And potatoes, or some, should we change, you know, what we're doing. So Kiyoshi, you know, lived in a town where everybody knew him. He was practically the leader of the town. No one in the town was going to let him starve to death no matter what he did.

[51:41]

That's just practically true. Both sides, you know, are true. You can't have one side without the other. We also have to take into consideration who is supporting and the effect of that. What you say is, by the way, about the ups and downs of support is pretty true. That when Buddhism is supported too much is when it's often been in its worst state. And when it's being purged, its financial base has been taken away from it, when it's been in its best state. So, Zen Center, Shizuki Roshi wanted Zen Center to focus on practice and not get into the situation of being too supported by society.

[52:50]

or to be quite in the situation of being purged or not purged. His ideal was the monks in China during... I can't remember exactly what dynasty it was, but there was a great persecution of Buddhism, and they retreated to the mountains. And they just lived, you know, raising a few vegetables and hiding out in the mountains. And the Zen school survived particularly well because it was able to do this, because it wasn't dependent on buildings and a lot of ritual equipment, things like that. A lot of it was burned and destroyed and turned into guns and ammunition. And all they needed were their legs. So our idea is more to be like that. How do we just take care of ourselves in practice? But in any way you do it, there are some flaws, of course.

[53:55]

And as a form of advice, if you're At the point at which you, the kind of statement you read there, the kind of, and Dogen's similar saying, is particularly important for you when you're at the point of, should I practice Zen or not? I'm not, my parents will criticize me. I won't be able to support my family. I won't be able to support myself. Or what kind of, what will happen? I won't have any insurance or money for old age or college, whatever. A lot of you are in that situation. You don't have any money and you're not putting aside a nest egg. You don't have any way, if a calamity happens, to do something about it.

[54:57]

At this point, you just trust your practice. Whatever it is, you trust it and you just do it. But if people do help you in your practice, you also recognize and are grateful for that. And Dogen's full of that, be grateful for the people who actually help you in your practice. And by this kind of help, we don't mean just financial help. We don't know who will help us. We practice with each other. And no one knows who will help us in our practice. And I don't mean financially. I mean everywhere. You know, we start out with our good friend. And the echo, we say, says donors, you know. So in practical terms, Zen Center isn't just a group of priests.

[56:00]

We're a combination of laymen and priests and a general community. we're creating a kind of Buddhist community. More like Roshi's, everybody in Roshi's town is Buddhist. No problem with non-Buddhists. No such thing as a non-Buddhist patron. Everybody's Buddhist. And the community exists. Some people are farmers and some people do something else. And if we have a community like this, everyone isn't going to be priests. Some people have to be farmers and some people other things. By participating in this community. But if you have some idea that because I'm a priest, I don't have to work, someone will support me, it's completely wrong.

[57:04]

I know, but we have to recognize our practical side of how we live. You know, how the people here who don't pay then Senate $105 a month Actually, the money comes from those of you who do pay $105 a month. There's some feeling in San Sano about that. In a practical term, that's a very real situation in San Sano. Some of us do pay and some of us don't pay, and why? Who decides that you should be supported by the others? Yeah, Philip? That shouldn't be, you know. That's one of my great faults, actually, is I have young arguments too often.

[58:16]

I'm sorry. But I like to fight with people. Actually, when people fight with me, it helps a lot. I always fight with... I used to fight with people, but I always fought with Sukhriya. Sukhriya is wonderful to have somebody like Sukhriya. I'm not Sukhriya. But it's wonderful to have somebody like Sukhriya so you can fight with. But... when we fight with each other, you know, and fight with ourselves. In some bigger context, if you recognize emptiness, of course, then you recognize that we are limited beings. We want to also be the peculiarities of our fellow practices. So sometimes with those peculiarities we fight, and sometimes with ourselves we fight.

[59:42]

Actually, it's rather fun, because you can fight. Oh, I guess I should. . I don't think so. I'm trying a bit in that. I'm trying a bit in that. Yeah, Rev and I talked about that actually, that it's a hidden power, you know, some hidden power doesn't mean you have some power to hide.

[60:54]

Or hidden practice doesn't mean you have some practice to hide. It means that you develop that that your practice, you don't relate to people in terms of your practice. If you do that, it's stifling. Everybody will hate you. You just relate to people in terms of this situation or that situation or whatever it is. You know, there it is, so you're in it and you do it. Your practice is your own thing. And that relationship, that's why doksan is private. No matter what happens in doksan, we don't talk about it. Because you want to create that ability and space in yourself to have a dialogue within yourself, which is completely private. You know, the other end of the scale is somebody who points out everything.

[61:57]

Isn't that beautiful? Look at that. Isn't that nice? We all have a tendency to do that. We want to share. what we see, the beautiful without it. To do that suddenly is fine, you know, but also you stop your own appreciation situation from being there. And the other person has made you way into it already, you know, and you stop him. You just, you trust that the other person is there. And if you're there, then there's no problem. The other person will be there. So you have some space in yourself for Doksana, for your own practice. Yeah, there's some problems you talk about. We don't show our power. That's really just saying, I'm powerful.

[62:57]

It's another way of saying, I'm powerful. And that's not what Red meant. But it's a very troubled thing to say. The guy waiting to cross the river. I spent all day looking for that hat to cross the river on. It was full of holes. Still looking. Actually, the guy who didn't walk on the water couldn't have walked in the water. Anyway, our practice means to be completely ordinary, to do the orioke just like the next step.

[64:07]

Only that way can we enter into the real turning of the wheel of the Dharma. Not us with some power. The great activity, the great power, the great activity, I don't like to look like that, the great activity is here for all of us if we can enter the eighth stage of Bodhisattva. And you can all do it, actually. You're all pretty good. Ken, your question is interesting, you know, and I... I think it's a very difficult one for lots of reasons. One is we're not very clear about this problem, and also we're just not a Buddhist society.

[65:09]

And I think at various stages, all of you will maybe, to use the word, agonize over this kind of problem. And there's no one way. Certainly, many people will leave Zen Center and go somewhere, and they will live in a community, and the community will support them. That's just as good as this way. And there are teachers who will go and criticize every other teacher. And there are teachers who won't criticize any other teacher. Doesn't mean the man who criticizes other teachers is wrong. That's one way to practice. Don't visit any other teachers. Only stay with me. That's one very good way to practice. Suzuki Roshi's way was the other. Oh, go anywhere you like. So Zen Center choosing one particular way doesn't mean the other ways aren't good. It's just for this particular situation, this is how we've worked it out. And it doesn't mean sometimes we can't recommend entirely the other way.

[66:13]

But actually, you can't just have some idea that I'm going to practice securely and everything will happen okay. The actual perception of that is in terms also of the whole situation. And if you're one with the situation, it works. But you do have to... You know, the idea that Buddha does it, that Buddha brought us Tassajara, many people have that idea. And it's true, in the largest sense it's true, when we all enter into our activity fully. But in the idea that, oh, we don't have to do anything, we'll just stay here and Buddha will do it. No, we wouldn't have Tassajara. Begging is a very real way to... And begging means to receive without asking.

[67:38]

Just when you beg, you actually have a hat that covers your eyes. I think I told some of you, it was very convenient for me because I didn't know the chant, so I pasted the chant at the top of the inside of the hat. So I would say, you can't see. But we haven't yet tried Takahatsu, but I'm having two or three hats sent from Japan. Without the chant in it yet. And maybe we'll try. But even in Japan, Takahatsu brings in pennies. No temple in Japan supports himself by Takahatsu. If you have a lot of monks, They live very cheaply. You don't have to buy the building. You don't, like Antaichi does pretty well. But Antaichi survives from a combination of Uchiyama Roshi writing books on origami, which helped bring him to the library.

[68:45]

And contributions, he won't accept anything, so a lot of stuff is brought anonymously, snuck in at night. And the monks going out for a lot of time. And you can... In Japan, in that kind of situation, you can sort of make ends meet. In most situations, they don't. They're just a token. So Roshi tried begging here, you know, and gave up. Tried for two weeks, and he first came. And we've been ready to go begging whenever he said. But every time he's come close to thinking, we've stopped. But this kind of problem, we have to think of. And the spirit of it, of course, is what counts. Anyway, enough of that. But it's a problem, I think, for all of us that we have to think about. And I think we should question what we're doing here in San Fernando, because I'm not satisfied with what we're doing. But presently, we're doing the best I know how to work with this group.

[69:48]

And, of course, you know, I think, now, that in San Fernando, we're not doing exactly what I want. Yes, I... Zen Center is not exactly the way I would create a Zen group. So just going, I don't know. I'm amazed. Here it is. Talking about going, tomorrow I'm leaving for the city. And... I'm sorry. Partly I have to go anyway, but what I have to do is two things. One is a wedding. I've had some other offer requests to do weddings during this breakfast period, and I've said no, but this one is rather more complicated than I had agreed a year or so ago. It's Jack Weller and Chris, and we planned it two or three times, and

[70:55]

been complicated. I had to do it with a rabbi. You have to work out the ceremony. And it's pretty complicated because it can't occur in San Francisco because of one family. It can't occur somewhere else because of the other family. Her family's Catholic. And, uh, trying to bring all the elements together, the rabbi and the families, et cetera. They had to choose a neutral, mountainous location at a time when it wasn't raining. And so I am going to go. It would be too complicated at this point, so I'm sorry. I can't do it. So I said, all right, I'll do it. And they tried to schedule a time when I was going to be in a city. Also, the reason Miho-san's not here is that, Yamada Gido?

[71:59]

Gido Yamada? Yamada Gido, I think. He's a close friend of Suzuki Roshi, and he's the equivalent of the president of Zen Center, but he's the president or administrative head of the Soto sect. And Soto sects divide up into sort of religious heads and administrative heads. though they're all priests. And the Yamada is the most important functional person. The other Yamada, who used to be at Los Angeles, who I had my first ordination under, is sort of second head of a heiji, the priest side of it. Yamada Guido is here in San Francisco and very much expects me to come to the city and meet him. I suppose I should go today, actually, but if I go tomorrow, I can see him at the airport before he leaves for Japan. I've met him in Japan.

[73:02]

The one person who wanted me to see when I went to Japan, and when the boat was in Yokohama when I first went, I went over to headquarters in Tokyo. After 18 taxi rides in Jewish directions, I saw him for about an hour to see him. And also, I have to work some on a couple other things for Wendell. Peter Bailey is down here visiting us and probably doing some work with me and with Lou Richmond, who's sitting down. And Peter's in the back there sitting. in the shadows. I always exaggerate and say if it weren't for Peter Bailey, Zen Center wouldn't be Tassajara. And that's a kind of exaggeration, you know, but it's very true that Bob Boney's pictures and Peter's hours and hours and hours of work on

[74:12]

The wind bells and the brochure were really important. And not only is Peter very good in that kind of work, he's also rare in that he can allow other people to work through him. Most people are very good, you know. They have their way, and they do it their way. And if they're good at designing books of poetry, your wind bell comes out looking like a book of poetry, which is okay. But Peter was able to be open to all the elements of the situation. So he's wonderful to work with. But I think he finds me a little difficult to work with. He claims, I can't believe it yet, he claims that second brochure, he spent 400 hours working it. Isn't that what you claim? It's not true. Anyway, he's down here. I don't have anywhere near even 40 hours anymore, so we're going to try and pour

[75:15]

hours maybe to do something for Glendale and something for Greenville. I'll be back maybe the 7th. I'm not going to tell you. We don't have any expectation of that. Sorry.

[75:31]

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