exists, but you can't do it. In Japan, they have a third category. Maybe they have others. The only one I noticed was a third, in which the mother ignores the existence of that which is asked for and says neither no or yes. And the child will ask maybe several days, because it can see that it wants it, and the mother refuses to acknowledge its existence. So finally, the kid just gives up, you know. That must not really exist. It's rather, it's real cultural brainwashing. Yes. And then the mothers complain while the kids grow up like they do, you know? What? In Oksan? But maybe what you should do, all right? I heard you. What you should do, not you, you, Mark, is you should possess everything you can. Zen Center will rent you Hearst Castle, and we'll pile things around you, and we'll check up on you now and then.

[01:19]

we left yesterday at the end we were talking about Japanese parents and children and of course we do the same thing it's more quite striking to us to notice it in Japan because they deny things that look quite material or possible. I can't really think of an example, but such a thing as like taking a bath out of order. There's a certain order within a family in which you take a bath. And if a child, say for example, wanted to take a bath out of order, They might not be told no, the request would just be ignored as an impossibility. But for us, we've ignored, our parents have maybe ignored for us something subtle that's often conveyed in religion or believing in ghosts or something like that.

[03:22]

which if you deny that kind of subtlety completely, you overlook, makes it very difficult for you to understand at first something like the real and the seeming, or form and emptiness, or the relative and the absolute. So it's troublesome for us, but also it makes us quite fresh. We come to Buddhism quite fresh. I want to continue trying to talk about the relative and the absolute because it will give you some feeling for Buddhism.

[04:58]

and for what the various Zen teachers are talking about. And if I describe it from various points of view, it will also give you a feeling for the same teaching and relationships to other schools of Buddhism. Even though by hearing the idea of, say, non-dual, non-duality, your mind does not become non-dual, but maybe it's useful to hear such an idea. So we're not quite so rigid in our expectation and reinforcement of duality. So the role of a teacher in Zen is to try to reveal the Absolute or suggest to you this possibility. But it's necessary for you to realize it. And real teaching is always a constant realization.

[06:25]

And as I was saying yesterday, it's Buddha talking to himself, no object. And so we teach ourselves, it's letting our discriminating mind stop, which reveals Buddhism. So I can't do anything but suggest that you stop your discriminating mind. I can't realize Buddhism for you. But I can't teach you something dead either, you know? So real teaching is what we realize together. So, if I teach you, it's by teaching myself. I'm my own disciple. And if you realize Buddhism, it's because you teach yourself. So, relatively speaking, I'm temporarily your teacher and your disciple, but

[07:59]

In absolute sense, we are just companions on the path, both teacher and disciple simultaneously. Because, as Dogen says, we reveal oneself reveals to oneself. So how to generate this kind of Buddhism is the basic problem and practice. Now, I've, by implication and also somewhat explicitly, been dividing Buddhism into two kinds of Buddhism, followers and realisers, maybe. followers practice but follow the way of Buddha, and realisers practice but realise, generate in themselves Buddhism. So in this sense, I said the other night, you possess Buddhism. I mean that

[09:29]

And Buddhism cannot exist except in your own realization. It doesn't exist in scriptures or for you, especially, in any form except in your realization. And it will only exist for others in your realization. And the trick is that you can't realize without realizing with others. So teacher and disciple. The relationship of teacher and disciple is real teacher. So, one who realizes Buddhism,

[10:40]

from one point of view can be described as uniting through the practice or mudra of body, speech and mind, internally and in actions, dharmakāya and you. And we can call this nirmanakaya. It's called nirmanakaya when seen by regular, non-practicing people. And it's called sambhogakaya when seen by bodhisattvas. Or by maybe your own experience. And it is how relative and absolute are united in one. how you find that mudra. And ultimate mudra is emptiness. Sixth Patriarch says, I think, when there's no, when you have discarded outer forms and your mind is not disturbed, you are, you have realized

[12:12]

unity of relative and absolute, or Buddhism naturally arises, or this very mind is Buddha. Or if you discard forms, your mind will naturally not be disturbed. Or if you can look at things, participate in the world without your mind being disturbed, this is samadhi. So this is Zen school's way of trusting that if you do zazen, and zazen I'm using in wide sense, not just sitting zazen, zen, of discarding outer forms and having a mind which is stable and not disturbed, then those mudras, shall we say mudras, which unite Dharmakaya and you, absolute and relative, are manifested.

[13:43]

and you who decide to do this, bodhicitta, you who decide to generate this, that you is sambhogakaya or nirmanakaya. Those two terms are rather overlapping. But as I was trying to speak about speech yesterday, or voice, there is, throughout Buddhism, throughout the Zen school, in the many, many, many sort of reported statements, implied mudras of practice or attitudes. Not just do something any which way. For example, again, the Sixth Patriarch, Shenhui,

[14:46]

comes to the Sixth Patriarch and says, when you are meditating, do you see or not see? And the Sixth Patriarch hits him three times. And he says, did that hurt or did it not hurt? And he says, It both hurt and it didn't hurt. That's what you're, when I ask you about, is sashin painful? You're supposed to say, it hurts and it doesn't hurt. That's classic answer. So, Shen Hui says, well, what is this seeing and not seeing of yours? And Sixth Patriarch says, when I see, I see my own errors. When I don't see, I don't see the evil of others. This is a kind of mudra or attitude that we take. It's not a matter of what's honest or pessimistic or realistic.

[16:16]

To be pessimistic, you know, or to describe things in a discouraged way is from the point of view of ego. From the point of view of Buddhism, from the side of Buddha, realization is always possible. So you speak about the full possibilities of things, or Buddhist realism, or what is conducive to joy or realization, as the Sixth Patriarch is suggesting. I see my own errors and not the errors of others. This kind of way of speaking or attitude is acting in accordance with what supports or furthers the purposes of others. So throughout Buddhism, this kind of... or the activity of Suzuki Roshi, this kind of attitude is always there. And living with Suzuki Roshi, he didn't have to explain it much, because you found that somehow he never criticized people much.

[17:45]

except when clearly it would help them. He just didn't point out something to be realistic or honest about something. But he always spoke in ways that were conducive to realization of each of us and conducive to our joy. The Sixth Patriarch goes on to say, oh, then he says, what about your hurting and not hurting? And Shen Hui says, if it didn't hurt, I would be a stone or not a sentient being. And he said, if it hurt, I would be subject to resentment and passions.

[18:48]

And so that kind of attitude, maybe is beginner's attitude, but to be able to have two or more points of view simultaneously is necessary for the practice of Buddhism. It hurts and it doesn't hurt. We can't give a simple answer. This sashin hurts, this sashin is wonderful, and this sashin is horrible. Both are true, and both should be true. If you have one or the other, there's something wrong. Aware, you know, the Japanese idea of being… acting forth I don't know exactly how to translate it right now, but maybe acting in accordance with the Tao at the same time as realizing you are killing. Both sides are there.

[20:17]

Then the Sixth Patriarch says, you idiot, all this is just dualism. Why don't you practice first and then ask me if I see or don't see, which is more basic idea of Zen. Discard, practice first, discard outer forms. Find through zazen your mind which is not disturbed. Then ask. It doesn't work to ask first and sort it out and then do it. Another way in which I meant when I said you possess Buddhism. As I said, it's because only through your realization does Buddhism exist for everyone, for anyone, for you. But also, Buddhism is for you. It's your own self-joyous enlightenment. It's for your own use.

[22:06]

And also, when you can do one thing, as I was saying yesterday, as lifting a big stone or offering incense are the same, with this kind of practice, you will find the expression of everything on one thing. On bowing will be the expression of everything. That will be Buddha. On speaking, voice itself will be Buddha. Content or words are not important. And difficulty in doing this is not that everything can't be forced into one thing to express it, that one thing is not conducive for the expression of many things, or you cannot express all things in one thing. It's not some... The difficulty is not because it's something forced, something artificial or something

[23:14]

in psychological terms. What do they call it? Sublimated. And expressed in some other activity. It's not the idea of sexual activity sublimated in art or something like that. There is no difficulty in expressing in one thing all things except that your patterns and habits and ego want you to express things in the service of ego. And there is also an enormous inertia or laziness. And just to look at our inertia is exhausting. We don't even want to see it, tires us out so. But so energy is one of the paramitas to overcome that constantly looking for when we're going to get to the status of arrived or maturity or something. And each moment we find our own creativity.

[24:40]

then there's no effort. And you yourself know that when you feel that, when you feel completely expressed in something, when you feel all things on one thing is when you most feel your practice, when you most know what practice is. So first practice is to try to do just one thing, one thing at a time, and do it completely. At first it's just some pushing something aside to do it, but eventually you will realize how one thing includes everything. This is to discard forms so that your zazen is your fullest expression when you're doing zazen. It's your full expression of everything. This is the mudra of form or joyous mudra of zazen or of speech or mind. It means emptiness.

[26:06]

But we can't understand form is form if we don't understand emptiness is form. So relative and absolute are always pointed out in Buddhism, seeming and the real. It's the most basic point in all koans and systems of Buddhism, the relationship between relative and absolute. So wave, follow, you know, when we describe the world as form, phenomena, oh, I don't have to practice Buddhism because form, emptiness is form. and there's only things just as they are, just as it is, as Yoshi would say. And this is so, but if you don't understand wave follows wave, wave leads wave, that creativity is not there. So just to see waves,

[27:35]

with no sense of absolute is delusion, or to be attached to one side. But to just see the absolute is also delusion, as in the story of Zen Master Hotetsu and as Dogen tells it, with the fan. Hotetsu is fanning himself and the monk comes in and says, since the nature of the wind is constant or permanent and reaches everywhere, why are you fanning yourself? Why do you use the fan? And Hotetsu says, although the nature, although you know, as I said, he doesn't know anything, but he is being, he says, although you know the nature of the wind is constant, you don't know the meaning of it reaching everywhere. So the monk bites and says,

[29:04]

What is the meaning of it reaching everywhere? And Hōtetsu just pansies. And so monk was attached to the absolute in this case. And he didn't realize unity of relative and absolute. So Then Dogen goes on to say, this is the seal of Buddha. This is the verification of Buddhism, of Dharma. Hotetsu fanning himself. It's not just form and emptiness, but beyond form and emptiness, form is form, emptiness is emptiness. This is the mudra which unites Dharmakaya and Sambhogakaya, Nirmanakaya, you and Buddha. So he says, this is what manifests the gold of the earth and ripens the sweet milk of the long rivers. And this is the same thing I was talking about yesterday. You generate Buddhism. You who generates Buddhism is Buddhism. It's not a you generating, but you who generates Buddhism is Buddhism.

[30:34]

is Buddha. So this means wave follows wave, wave creates wave. is you could look at Buddhism as quietism or some passivity. Oh, yes, Buddhism will manifest in me. Buddha nature is everywhere. I don't have to do anything. This nature of the wind is permanent or constant and reaches everywhere, so I don't have to fan.

[31:55]

This would be some passive state. But a passive state is, again, means you have objectified the world. There's you and that world, which you will let do it, or God, or Buddha, or something. An aggressive state is you're going to do it, you know? You're going to do something. I'm going to achieve enlightenment. So it's a very subtle problem, how to be enlightened without achieving enlightenment, or how enlightenment is to give up enlightenment. Don Juan, you know, talks about non-doing, and non-doing in Buddhism and in Don Juan are nearly the same. And Don Juan's suggestions of how to practice are what many of you now are trying to work with, actually. When Don Juan... Don Juan says over and over again to Castaneda,

[34:12]

Don't do what you know how to do. I think most of you have read the book and you remember that he says, what you know how to do is to look at the foliage, at the leaves. So look at the shadows or the spaces. This is to discard forms. And this is what Suzuki Yoshi meant by a soft mind. If you have a hard mind, you're always seeing foliage or something. As someone said, they look for the specific and ignore ambiguity. But a soft mind, softened up by Zazen and Sesshin maybe, is rather Rather, it's so exhausted, ideally. It's so exhausted and painful. It can't be hard anymore and doesn't care about the foliage at all. And what you see are shadows and confusion. You are quite receptive in that kind of state. And you may see something in the shadows.

[35:35]

Nori Suzuki Roshi talked about waiting, but this waiting for things, the intelligence of phenomena, is not some passive waiting, it's some active participation. Wave leads wave and wave follows wave. So secret in Buddhism is that you generate Buddhism, that you enlighten yourself and point of it being with others is always with others is not exactly what I mean but for others that enlightenment is some for yourself but simultaneously some shared acting in accordance with what supports others, the point is always the same. If we look at the sixth patriarch, he said, my mind or wisdom spontaneously arises in my mind and is a field of blessedness or merit.

[37:09]

when I do not stray from my essence of mind it's a field of blessedness which means that this mind blesses others that it's a the idea as a monk is it's a Mahayana idea that you your enlightenment enlightens others. Hinayana doesn't quite have this idea, so in actual fact, Hinayana does more good works. Runs orphanages and helps people. Mayana sits around in a trance, you know, and blessing everybody with their field. But, anyway, idea is there. But the point of acting, of Hotetsu fanning himself, you know, then the Sixth Patriarch says, he doesn't just say, what will you give me to do? Which would be looking for something. He says, I don't know what you will give me to do. You enter Buddhism blindly. I'm sorry.

[38:43]

I don't know what you will give me to do." To just do what's in accord with others is the same idea as expressed in realizing the mudra of joy in body, speech, and mind. Or as I've talked to about Layman Pang, Layman Pang's verse, you know, carrying water and chopping wood is wondrous, is supernatural power and wondrous activity. But whole verse begins with doing what just comes to my hands. This is no ego involved here. Doing just what comes to my hands is wave following wave, wave leading wave. So because we're a human being,

[40:07]

this possession or non-possession, this generation of the mudra which allows the great flow of patriarchs, of the stream of blood, is by definition or actuality something that you have a responsibility to pass on So for the kind of transmission Buddhism or realization Buddhism, you feel, because you're a human being, that this gift must be given away. It's alright not to answer the phone.

[41:21]

I think you have understood what I mean. And I don't mean you understand it completely, because it's not that kind of thing. But, and what I'm saying is not You know, I sometimes... I have some transcriptions of talks I've given, which... Lou wants to put something in the windmill, and I haven't looked at them really, but I've looked at a couple, and it's never what I was saying what's written there. I don't know, it's some few silly things.

[43:17]

It may not be so interesting, but I know I was saying something anyway. So, what I'm saying is maybe some kind of seed, seed for me and seed for you, which will exist for you over a long time. when it's useful. It's like Suzuki Roshi said about his teacher, when I was with my teacher I felt he was really my teacher, completely my teacher. At first maybe he had some difficulty but he said often I felt he was really my teacher and I paid him respect and treated him as I should, as a disciple. But after my teacher died, I realized I didn't understand my teacher at all and didn't know why he was my teacher. And so this year, he said, that year I felt I knew what my teacher was. Finally I knew why he was my teacher.

[44:45]

And then he said, the next year I realized, previous year I didn't know what my teacher was, and finally I realized what my teacher was, and wanted to pay respect to him, as I should have, as we make offering to Suzuki Roshi yesterday. In this way, it's the same thing. It's withered, the withered branches of winter, or dead branch, which comes out in springtime, or comes out in your lifetime. And we don't know what it is exactly. And I don't, excuse me for saying so, know exactly what it is I'm saying to you. I am saying something to you that conveys a feeling I have from Suzuki Ueshi. That's all. So it's not necessary or important for you to try to figure out what I'm saying.

[46:08]

But I should say something. Wave follows wave. Wave leads wave. Botetsu fanning himself. That's wondrous activity and supernatural power. That's generating Buddha. So it's something very creative. Created because you understand and are one with the actual nature of existence, which is neither passive nor active. Transient as do, but real for you on this moment.

[47:38]

So we find ourselves taking joy in the practice of others. And this joy is transmission. This is the only way to get free of doing it for ourself. Do you have some question or something we should talk about?

[49:21]

How long have you had that question? Okay. Oh, I can't exist without you. I'm completely dependent on you. It's true. I enjoy it. Yeah? To what? If you say all form, or my talk, is relative, it means just wave after wave. It doesn't mean wave follows wave and wave leads wave. It's some passive idea. Absolute and relative exist in one activity. So my talk is both absolute and relative. And if you understand this, it means

[51:06]

utter darkness. That may not make much sense, but that's what we mean by realization. But at first you have to look at it as if everything is relative. But if that's so, then form isn't emptiness. Emptiness isn't form. form is emptiness and emptiness is form is one side of the coin of form is form. That's true. And if you

[52:29]

where one with that spinning coin gets beyond form and emptiness. There's some famous poem, let's see if I can remember it. I always remember everything backwards. I have to start, because the last part interests me more, maybe, when I go backwards. If I know the last, I can figure, oh, that must have come before, and that must... Yeah, maybe it will come to me. Yeah, anyway, one line from it is, when the void is... When there's no void to abide in, that's real void. That's the only line I can remember. Sorry. That's enough, huh?

[53:50]

That's an interesting question. You couldn't hear what she said. It's secret teaching. Sorry. I don't like to say so, because it sounds like something forced. She said, if mudra is that form in which joy arises, is the whole life of a Buddhist practicing, realizing Buddhism, shall we say, his whole life, or her whole life then, is just mudra?" And I said, yes. And she said, well, then you implied, what if you don't like being stuck in this mudra? Maybe it's not so comfortable, but joy is arising all around you, so it's all right. Yeah, maybe so. That's probably not exactly what she said.

[55:40]

Hmm. Just a minute. Well, what she expressed presents some interesting problems which maybe I shouldn't discuss. It does present some interesting problems which I have no solution for except to say it's not important to me anyway.

[57:12]

You can change your legs if you want. implied in what she said is some, what is the cost of being a Buddhist then? What are you excluding? I find nothing myself excluded. But maybe, for instance, if you, a poem written by a Buddhist, in the sense she's speaking about, would not be personal. It would express the thoughts of others. It would be the kind of poem that you read and you feel, oh yes, that's just what I think. And maybe all art shouldn't be just that kind of art.

[58:50]

But you do put your life at the service of others, and so it no longer belongs to you. It's symbolized by cutting off your hair, so that you have no style, personal style left. You have some emptiness, or any form for anyone. As Suzuki Yoshi used to call it, the ultimate hairdo. When I told somebody that, as you know, someone said to me, it looks like a hair don't. But there is some interesting problem there that we can think about. But it is the correlations. For instance, I, years ago, loved reading Proust. One of Proust's projections in the novel, at the end, starts a male whorehouse, and he... Also, I think... Anyway, Proust, in actual fact, did start himself a male whorehouse and a heterosexual whorehouse, broadly.

[60:22]

And in what Proust seemed to be trying to do in that, it's no different from Zen Center, I feel. We're kind of a Zen brothel. But we're not caught by the forms, you know. But Proust was very concerned with the desires and passions and satisfying the needs of people, and we are. And he was extremely interested in people and wanted to do something for them. And he also was interested in transforming his desires, his feelings about his parents and people into... I mean, there's much more similarity between the madam of a whorehouse, or Proust, than there is to the patron whorehouse of Buddhists, because we're creating a situation for the satisfaction of beings. But Proust did it in a way which was... which in the end I guess he found extremely unpleasant.

[61:46]

he was mortified by his… the way, but he… But for us, you know, we… There's some, as I pointed out before, there's some identity between passion and compassion.

[62:10]

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