I have a little present for you. It's a little card that's called The Sixteen Precepts for Enlightening Relationships. It's a delight when you can come get one afterwards. So I said I would talk about how sexuality could be... part of an enlightening relationship or something like that and so I'll talk about that now and this morning with the people in the retreat I discussed the making of commitments and building a container of a container of Can that be closed? Building a container or a vessel, or if I'm not mixing too many metaphors, a womb, or an enlightening relationship.

[01:16]

And so I would just, without going into detail about how to build the container, I would just say that I think we need some kind of vessel or crucible in which we can contain the heat of the process of transformation in a relationship that's trying to promote enlightenment and liberation. One example of this would be that someone was talking to me about a relationship where sexuality is part of the relationship and in that relationship lots of emotions are coming up

[02:24]

And these emotions were so strong that they almost overwhelmed her, or did overwhelm her, and she felt the need to take care of herself. And so I suggested that she have an understanding with her partner that at times when he expresses really strong anger, that he understands that she might have to withdraw from him to take care of herself. And that it doesn't mean that she's going to go away forever, but just for a hopefully specified amount of time, she needs to go and rest or reconsider what's happening with herself until she feels ready to re-engage.

[03:31]

And that she explained to him beforehand that she needs to have this right if they're going to interact intensively. And he would understand beforehand that if he, for example, expresses strong anger towards her, that she might have to do that. And he would agree beforehand that she would be able to do that. Another... Of course, someone could say, you know, no... No yelling. Someone could set that. Someone could say, part of the relationship I want to, some part of the parameters of the relationship I want to have is no yelling. Like I said, my wife said, no hitting. And you might say that. You might say, no hitting. And someone else might say, no yelling. But someone may be able to handle yelling and not prohibit it or say that that's the end of the relationship. But just that when it happens, if it's overwhelming, I may have to withdraw for a while. But when I withdraw, I will try to say, you know, I'm withdrawing, and so isn't passive aggression.

[04:38]

And I will say I will come back at some time. And can you agree with me beforehand, before we go any further, that I'm allowed to do that? If one can do that, one can stay in the relationship, even if such a strong emotion was expressed. If you're not allowed to do that, you may feel like, well, I can't. I can't stay with it. I can't commit myself to stay in the relationship if I don't have a chance to protect myself from your rage. But if you can agree to that, I think I can tolerate sometimes that you would lose control. And you'd lose your patience or something and do something like that. That might not be the end if you allow me to do that. At the time of you expressing that kind of rage to me, instead of taking it frontally, I might turn sideways to protect my body from it and talk to you like this as I'm about to leave the room.

[05:45]

If you can allow me to leave, I think I can say I will come back. But if you don't allow me that, I don't know if I can stand the heat. In a sexual relationship, some strange things start happening. For example, you know, I sometimes use the example of if you, like, if you're riding in a car with somebody you know a little bit or is a complete stranger or just a friend, a range of things like that, you might be riding with them And if they go someplace that you know the way, and they take a different route, you might say, geez, you might think to yourself, what an unusual way to go. If you take a right here and go down two blocks and over that way, it's very convenient, but they're going way out of the way. How interesting, you might think. Whereas if you sleep in the same bed as the person for a while, sometimes one night's enough,

[06:51]

and then you're in the car with them and they turn in a different place you do, you feel like they're really assaulting you. Like they're crazy. Because you think that they probably would do the same way you do. And don't they know how much it annoys you for them to turn a different place than you do? This strange thing starts happening, you know. You don't mean to have it happen, but on some level your body starts getting confused, you start thinking the person would do what you would do, whereas you don't expect that of people you don't have this kind of relationship with. So when you're close to someone in that way, they can do little things and you feel like they're reorganizing your organs. And so you get really upset. You might. And so you might really freak and get angry at them for some little thing like, you know, positioning things in the refrigerator, taking a left turn, going two blocks out of the way, these kinds of things.

[08:06]

You can get really irrational because you've gotten into this area called sexuality. So you need to have some agreement about how do you handle such things activation of irrational process and you need a container between the two of you. That's not the whole, that's not the full extent of the container, that's just one example I gave you. Another way to build a container or a vessel that contain the heat is to make, is to bring up the precepts, for example, these precepts of enlightening relationship. And one of the precepts would be no misuse of sexuality. But then there's other precepts too. And you both might make a commitment to these precepts and they also would be a reference point for you to relate and discuss your relationship. So these enlightening relationship precepts are the bodhisattva precepts.

[09:14]

So you might have a mutual commitment to these precepts. So that would also provide a container or a context in which you relate in general, but also in which sexuality could be contained in a beneficial way if one is practicing these precepts in a harmless way, in a beneficial way, in an enlightening way. So in an enlightening relationship, sexuality... functions in a non-harming way so first of all it's not harmful that's pretty good you can just have it be not harmful next you might say that it would even be beneficial and finally that it would be enlightening In some Buddhist scriptures, when they're talking about the Eightfold Path, they have what's called right action or comprehensive action.

[10:27]

And under that heading falls no killing, no taking of life, no taking what's not given, and no misuse of sexuality. And the commentary there in the scriptures, the explanation of what that means is often quite short. And what they say is, for monks and lay people, for Buddhist monks and nuns, what it means is, they often say, is no sexuality, or no sexual intercourse, or no sexual intercourse. Whatever that means, none of that. And the lay people, they often say, what it means is that you're faithful to your spouse. In other words, they just say you have sexual relationship with your spouse and with nobody else. That's often about all it says. And this is sort of emphasizing that it's not harming. And for monks and nuns, you have these precepts that you've taken which specify the details of how you would not get sexually involved.

[11:35]

So it literally means no genital sexuality, no genital sexual intercourse, but also, actually, in some of the monasticities, it's like you wouldn't even touch a member of the opposite sex. And I think then if you were homosexual, you wouldn't touch... a person, you know, sexually. And you wouldn't be alone with someone with whom you had asexual feelings going on. You just wouldn't be alone with them, like in a room. You might walk down the street with them for a while, but you wouldn't be like in a room alone. You could sit next to them maybe in a big assembly with a Buddha watching. but you wouldn't go off in the woods and meditate next to each other in the dark. And so on. So you wouldn't touch and you wouldn't accept the touch from someone you had those feelings with.

[12:43]

I once asked some people to research if the Buddha ever touched anybody. And they found some examples. Buddha actually touched an elephant one time, a sick elephant. And another time I know Buddha drank some water and sprayed a sick dragon. That's a kind of an Asian medicinal thing is for some healers to aspirate. I don't know if aspirate is quite the right word, but anyway, make a fine mist out of their mouth of certain liquids as a healing technique. Have you seen that? Anyway, the Buddha did that. Another case where he touched someone is he and Ananda were walking along and they found one of the monks. And the monk had all kinds of sores and he was actually lying in his own excrement. And it was a terrible situation where the other monks weren't taking care of him.

[13:45]

So Buddha and Ananda picked him up, cleaned him, gave him clean robes, and washed him. And the Buddha did touch him in this case. Otherwise, there's not too many examples of Buddha touching his monks or his nuns with his hands. Of course, he touched them with his words and his eyes. in an enlightening way. So Buddha was a sexual being. That's part of the characteristics of a Buddha, is that a Buddha is a sexual being. Regular person, you know, with regular sexual energy. But the Buddha's sexuality is enlightening. The way the Buddha's sexual energy interacts with beings liberates them. The Buddha follows these precepts. The Buddha doesn't misuse sexuality, never harms, only awakens. So one simple way to understand what an enlightening way to use, not to use, actually an enlightening way, an enlightening relationship is not to use your sexuality actually.

[15:00]

Don't use it. That's an enlightening way to be sexual. Don't use it. In other words, don't turn into me using this on myself or others. And what does it mean not to use sexuality? That's called appropriate sexuality. And what does that mean? It means to take refuge in Buddha. It means to take refuge in Dharma. It means to take refuge in Sangha. When you take refuge in Buddha, you don't use sexuality. There's sexual energy there in the refuge-taking. The sexual energy dives into Buddha. The sexual energy dives into the truth, dives into the Sangha. The enlightening function of sexual energy is to embrace and sustain the forms of Zen practice.

[16:05]

The enlightening use or function of sexuality is to go to the Zendo and flatten a few Zafus, is to sit upright, unmoving, with total devotion to all beings. It's to join your palms with your whole heart and whole mind. Give yourself entirely to this form so completely that there's just the form. And that is called sexual satisfaction. that is an enlightening function of sexuality, is to enact the traditional forms of practice in a fully satisfying way so you have no craving in that activity. At the moment, you wish for nothing but to stand on the earth and join your palms, or perhaps salute. the enlightening function of sexuality is to practice all good.

[17:18]

And that means, of course, following, enacting the monastic forms with wholeheartedness is good too. But what I mean by practice all good is practice good in sort of non-formal ways. Like cooking, you know, it's kind of informal. Sweeping. Building. Sewing. Washing. These kinds of activities, typing, receiving money, giving money, these activities of the monastery, to do them in the spirit of practicing good, that is the enlightening activity of sexuality. Another enlightening activity of sexuality is to embrace and sustain all beings. Another enlightening activity of sexuality is not killing. And so on. So if you want to know what appropriate sexuality is, just check this list and see if it satisfies all other 15.

[18:23]

Enlightening sexuality means you tell the truth. It means you tell the truth. It means this person that you're involved with, you tell them the truth. You don't lie in order to facilitate or use your sexuality. You tell the truth to let your sexuality function. You don't take what's not really given. You're not possessive. You don't praise yourself at the expense of another in a relationship. You don't intoxicate yourself or intoxicate the other. and so on. Just check this list. Okay? These 15 points will tell you what enlightening sexuality is. And then some people, when I say that, they say, well, that's it for me.

[19:29]

No more sex. Because I can never satisfy all this. And still have sex. But that's what sex is, when it's enlightening. It's the other 15 points. The sexuality is there all the time. It's enlightening when those other 15 practices, when those other 15 precepts are realized, then your sexuality is enlightening you. And still, maybe you have trouble understanding what those other precepts mean. Well, they mean the other 15. And still you may have trouble understanding what it is, so then what you do is you need a teacher. So if you don't understand whether certain activities would be appropriate sexuality, you go talk to your teacher. Now that doesn't guarantee that you're going to be able to figure it out with your teacher, but anyway you discuss it with your teacher.

[20:35]

You discuss it before you get involved in certain kinds of sexuality, you discuss it with your teacher. If you don't have a teacher, well, then you don't have that additional way of trying to find out whether it's appropriate or not. So the other people you might be involved with, part of the container is agreements of how to handle what comes up in relationship to sexuality. Part of the container is these precepts, and part of the container is to have a teacher, and part of the container is the precepts. Another aspect, I think, of the enlightening, to make sure that sexual activity is enlightening, is that in all relationships, and including relationships where you are physically intimate with somebody, again, that the main issue in the relationship is that you're devoted to this person.

[22:07]

Now, if you're devoted to all beings, that's good, but it also applies to anybody that you're physically intimate with. In other words, however your sexuality is manifesting with someone, whether you're in the same city, state, or bed, that your activity is primarily for their benefit. for the benefit of the other person. You don't use sexuality for yourself. Using sexuality for yourself is to praise self at the expense of the other. It is to slander the other.

[23:09]

Now, what about, is it telling a lie? Maybe not, but will you actually say, I'm doing this for me, not for you? Do you actually tell them that? This is for me, not for you. They might say, wait a minute, let's do this together at least. I'm just using you for myself. If you told the truth about that, things might start moving in a positive direction. That's really what you're up to. You don't take it unless it's given. As a matter of fact, you give and then you realize it's given. And so on. You're not possessive of outcomes. But basically anyway, you don't do it for yourself. You don't get involved. You do not use it.

[24:13]

You give it. But also, you know, all these precepts are another way to talk about being upright. And that means that you let your sexuality be expressed and you recognize the other being's sexuality. So you don't hide your sexuality either. That's another way to use it. Expressing it fully, you don't use it. It's not an object that you use. It is expressed from your uprightness. And when you express it from uprightness, you also recognize the other person. Sexuality in an enlightening way is an expression of intimacy. And when there's intimacy, there is no other.

[25:20]

And when there's no other, that's what it's really like when you're devoted to the other. And another thing, another warning is that if you're really working towards this intimacy with the other, but also with yourself, intimacy with yourself is being upright. And the way you work towards intimacy with yourself is not killing, not stealing, and so on. That's how you get intimate with yourself. Take revision Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. That's how you get intimate with yourself. But also, express yourself Let yourself be expressed as Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. Let yourself be expressed as not killing. So you're both expressing yourself and guiding yourself to yourself with the precepts. And also, these precepts support you to recognize the other. Because you have to look at the other to see if you're respecting them, if you're taking something from them,

[26:31]

if you're lying to them, and so on. You may not think you're being possessive of someone, but they may think so. And in the process of getting closer to yourself and in the process of getting closer to another, as the intimacy gets closer and closer, as the familiarity gets more and more extreme or intense, the ultimate closeness, just before you're completely non-dual, not, I wouldn't say one, but not separate. As you get really, really close, but there's still some distance, that closeness is almost like war. When you get really, really close to what you really want, it's almost like war. You can barely stand it. So I talked this morning about like, you know, I organized my whole life to come to California and be with a teacher named Suzuki.

[27:47]

And when I was with him for a few years, I got some chances to really be close to him and have him give me his full attention. And when I got that, I often wanted to get away. Because it's... It's so hard to stay present and not worry about yourself when you're really close to yourself or close to the other that you want to be close to. Very hard. So part of the container is also to have ways to support you to not run away from that intimacy. And another thing to watch out for, I think, at this time, is that when you get really close to someone, sometimes that's when you feel your anxiety more. That when you get close to someone and your sexuality is functioning,

[28:56]

that sexuality in some ways makes you really anxious. Not the sexuality, but the sexuality in combination with the separation. And there's a tendency to want to do something to distract, disperse, allay the anxiety. And one of the things you can do that allays it in a situation is to touch. it kind of breaks the spell of the anxiety, which is kind of pleasant, kind of shocking, kind of magical. But if you do it to make your anxiety go away, I say that is a not enlightening function of sexuality. It is your sexuality because everything you do is your sexuality. But it is an inappropriate use of it, I would say. Because you're using it for yourself to get rid of your anxiety.

[30:05]

Now, it might also get rid of the other person's, too. On the other hand, it might heighten theirs. You don't know. That would be something to discuss. Would you like me to touch you and remove your anxiety? Would that remove your anxiety temporarily? The person might say, oh, yes, it would. Please. Please take away my anxiety. Let's, like, get rid of it, shall we? This is called you know, an activity which promotes ignorance and bondage. Let's both look away from the fact that we're ignorant. Because facing anxiety is facing that you're ignorant. Because the reason why we're anxious is because we really don't understand interdependence. And if when you're close to someone and you feel that anxiety, if you can help each other, if you can use, not use, but if you can let the sexuality support you in not tampering and distracting the anxiety, that means you're not distracting yourself from your ignorance and your delusion, which is the source of the anxiety.

[31:12]

Then you can help each other face delusion. Then the sexuality... that sexuality can support both parties, or maybe even there could be several parties, but anyway, support the beings in the relationship to face the anxiety that we feel when we're close, but separate, and face the delusion at the source of the anxiety, and open our eyes to our interdependence. then the sexuality is embracing and sustaining an enlightening process. And we're not using the sexuality to distract ourselves from our anxiety and to distract ourselves from our delusion and basically acting out, being driven by the anxiety, being driven by the anxiety which is derived from the delusion. In other words, being driven by delusion to avoid facing the delusion.

[32:14]

and drawing somebody else into the process and using them for our own purposes. So, I would imagine maybe you think I'm being a little strict, but I'm talking about an enlightening relationship, not just harmless. But an enlightening way to be with someone where there's sexual energy, and there's usually sexual energy, so this is just simply an enlightening way to be with someone, including the people who you feel the sexual energy the most with. And sometimes people get close to the people that they feel sexual energy the most with. Those are the people they choose to feel close with. And So that's a choice. Sometimes people do not choose to be close to people they feel the sexual energy most with. They feel like, I won't be able to be upright with that person.

[33:19]

Different people have different styles. There's a case where you might talk to your teacher about whether you want to be with somebody who you really feel strong sexual energy coming up and strong anxiety and strong temptation to get rid of the anxiety, or someone who works a little milder. We can discuss that, what the merit or demerits of the different types of relationships are. But in the long run, the vow of the bodhisattva is to meet all these beings and have enlightening relationships with all of them. But you might start with the easy ones and work up. And another part of the container for enlightening sexual relationships is that at Zen Center anyway, part of the container is supposedly when you come to Zen Center, you can expect that the teachers will not get involved with you sexually in the kind of what we call conventional sense of getting involved sexually.

[34:21]

So that's the kind of thing you can expect. you can count on and the teachers are accountable for that. Also, the students are accountable for that. Okay? So, you, in some sense, that's a relationship that supposedly would not be a relationship where the teacher would be touching you to overcome her anxiety that she feels when she's close to you. And also, you should consider maybe not touching the teacher if what you're touching the teacher for is to, like, you know, give yourself some kind of a feeling. this statement will probably reduce the hugs that I'm asked to give. People say, is it all right to hug? I say, sure. But what's your motivation? I usually ask that. Okay, well, that's a little bit about it. Does that make sense? Do you have any questions about that? Yeah? Yeah? So when you say when you get really close, but there's still some distance, that it's almost like war.

[35:33]

That's a quote from Case 98 of the Book of Serenity. That case is called Dungsan's Intimacy. The monk says to the great master Dungsan, What is it that doesn't fall into any category? What body of booty doesn't fall into any category? And he says, I'm always intimate with this. And then one of the verses in there is, this closeness is heart-rending if you seek it outside. The ultimate familiarity is almost like enmity, almost like war. so obviously I need to study this case my question is I know what you're talking about and I have run from it in my life that place and I've acted out of the war and anxiety and And I thought, but I wonder, why, what is that?

[36:40]

Why, you know, why don't we just get closer? Why don't we just fill the gap? I mean, why do we have that experience? Why do we have the experience of how difficult it is to be intimate and how as you get closer, in some ways it gets more difficult? Yeah. Yeah. I always thought there was something wrong with me, that I couldn't just merge and separate. Well, you see, a lot of people can merge. That's the thing, you see, is that what happens is when you touch the person, certain people, and then you touch them and touch them and touch them, a lot of people merge them, right? But they're using that function to create this merging without actually understanding the merging function. the interdependence. They use sexuality to kind of like feel something like you would feel if you understood properly. That's why sexuality is so attractive in certain ways. Right.

[37:41]

But how do you... We don't actually merge. We are interdependent. We're not like really just one, you know, you and I are not one soggy thing, we're one interdependent reality. And you are actually a unique creation of the universe, and so am I. And to appreciate our interdependence means that our individuality is threatened as well. So as you get closer and closer to intimacy, your sense of self as an independent entity is being threatened. Your basic sense of isolated, independent existence, your basic delusion is being affronted by intensifying the anxiety. Because you're getting closer, you're more likely to lose that sense of individuality. Your sense of threat, you know. Your sense of, you know, is this really so?

[38:44]

Everything this person does affects me, you know. I'm so responsive to them up close like this. And you also actually do feel, I mean, can feel a loss of boundary, like on a physical level too. You can feel loss of boundary, yeah. Yeah, but that's usually a pleasant thing. That's what's so confusing. It's a pleasant thing if they behave. But if they turn left at the wrong corner, you go into rage. If they move something on your table. Somehow, you know, don't they know that that upsets you? What are you doing that for? Because you're confusing boundaries. So you confuse boundaries, you fight for your boundaries. It gets to be a mess because there's delusion there. And your sense of control, when you get close, your sense of control gets kind of like, starts changing. Or you start losing it. Maybe you're going to get overwhelmed by this. Or maybe you're going to overwhelm.

[39:47]

Maybe you're going to hurt. Maybe you're going to be hurt. Maybe you're going to be hurt and then hurt. Maybe you're going to hurt and be hurt. All this stuff starts coming up when you get close. And then suddenly there's a whole bunch of other people in the room, which there always were, but you didn't realize it. And all kinds of things start happening when you get close. How can you stay upright and awake in the middle of that intensity? How can you be intimate with yourself and the other? It's really a challenge. If you can, when the juices are flowing, then that's really an enlightening opportunity. But it's not easy. It's so easy to go to sleep under those circumstances, to pass out or to take over, to take control. You know, one person takes control and the other one passes out. You know that one? One person one person swoons and the other one takes charge. There's specialists on those two styles. They even have drugs for taking control and drugs for like swooning and giving in.

[40:53]

Maybe some of you know what those drugs are. Do you know what I'm talking about? What's the drug what's the drug for like going for surrendering? What's the name of it? Huh? Quaaludes. Quaaludes. A lot of women take quaaludes so that they can do this kind of like falling asleep thing, giving in thing. You haven't heard of that? No. Yeah. It's a popular drug among some women. Maybe it's not... It was more popular in the 70s. A lot of women were taking this drug because it helps you like just really like surrender, you know, and loosen up and let them do it. Or let, yeah, let them do it. Or her do it, who's taking a drug so she, to make her, you know, the one who does it. And then the boys take things like cocaine and now they got this new sex drugs for men. So you can, so you can do it. So you can do it. So you can do it. So you can be the, the doer, you know. So you do these things. Rather than everybody being like a receiver and a giver, so there isn't takers and givers, there's both givers and takers, everything's interdependent, we split off into a simple version of reality which is unenlightened, but easy.

[42:10]

And if you want to play one of the roles in having trouble, well, they have drugs to help you. And if you don't know which one you want to do, they have drugs to help you just be happy to be confused. But again, enlightening sexuality is not drugged. But so much sexuality is drugged. And so much abusive sexuality is drugged, right? So much rape is drugged. So much being raped is drugged. People are raped and don't even know it because they're drugged. And people rape people and don't even know they're raping them because they're drugged. They don't even know that they did it. This is like called unenlightening relationship. Intoxication, lying, self-deceit, deceiving others, stealing, and so on. Yes.

[43:13]

like the relationship to be devoted to the other can you also give the example of um being able to say to your partner have an agreement that you're going to withdraw when you need to take care of yourself because you can't take the heat that's coming from them so how do you be devoted to them and take care of yourself at the same time well like in my case uh like Again, to use the athletic example, if you're playing a sport, you know, you're on the field, and like if you would get a minor injury, I don't know what a minor injury, let's say, and if you keep playing sometimes, then you get a major injury. But if you rest, you can come back and play without getting a major injury. If you get a major injury, and then people keep coming at you when you're majorly injured, you sometimes do really... highly defensive things, like you sometimes hurt them because you're injured and they don't know it. So sometimes if you feel injured in a relationship, you're taking care of the other person sometimes by withdrawing until you recover so that you can interact without becoming defensive and then hurting them out of defense.

[44:28]

So like if you're wounded, sometimes if you go rest for a little while, you heal and you're up for it again, you want to play. So then you come back and you're taking care of them. And sometimes people say, you know, well, I don't mind, you know, you can be upset with me and so on, but you may feel that you might do something that you would regret. So then you go rest until you can come back and be kind of relaxed and flow with the relationship. But again, a key thing is that you tell them that you're withdrawing because if you don't tell them you're withdrawing, it's what we call sneaky aggression, passive aggression. Passive aggression is a really good way to get them because there's no marks on the body. But eventually that will be considered the same as actually hitting the person. It even hurts people more than direct aggression because they don't even know what it is. On some level, when someone withdraws without telling us, it can kill us. But if you tell a person, just tell them simply, even though they might resist it at the time, at least they remember, well, I did agree for you to be able to leave, so I guess you can go.

[45:35]

Okay? It is taking care of the other person and taking care of yourself. Yes? Where I get born, talk about the most enlightening being of all Buddha, never touching anybody, and seeing how... He did touch people. Well, the three examples. Yeah. And probably some other ones. But he didn't touch people, like, you know, sexually. Right. There's no harassment suits against a Buddha that he had on record anymore. So it just seems so... Like, when you said that it might seem harsh... what you taught, or strict, is there a way to talk about it that's more common? It feels very lofty. Yeah, well, when I use the example of Buddha, it gets lofty.

[46:39]

The Buddha, however, you know, was radiating an orgasmic warmth. You know, the Buddha was like always in this incredible bliss of caring for all beings. He was conveying this great happiness and warmth. One time, so I'm sorry, that's kind of, he's a lofty creature, lofty, enlightened one. Suzuki Roshi, in relationship to me, and this isn't the way he was with everybody, but in relationship with me, he was kind of cool. I knew he knew that I was there because he asked me to do things. One time, for example, during an orioke meal, he turned to me and he gestured to me to make the food offering. And he just said, you do it. And I knew how to do it because I had watched it being done. So I knew that he knew

[47:40]

that I'd been there and knew how to do it, even though he never showed me. So I got up and did the food offering for the meal. And other things made me know that he knew I was there, like he assigned me, he said, please do this and please do that. But he never touched me. He never really hardly even smiled at me. Okay? But I was totally devoted to him, as much as I could be, and I felt like he was aware of me and And I had dokes on with him and so on. But there was no real, he didn't like say, I like you or nice going. He didn't put his arm around me or pat me on the back or anything. Okay? But I felt like, actually someone else told me that he, for a couple of years, didn't talk to that person. So that made me feel good to know that he might relate to it. a person who was very close to him, this person was close to him, in a cool way for some period of time.

[48:45]

And I felt I don't know when I thought this, but I felt either before, at some point I felt like what he did was, he for himself and me for myself, I realized that I was practicing in Zen Center for the practice, that I loved the practice. I was there because I wanted him to teach me about the Buddha way. Now, the person I chose to teach me about the Buddha Way, I felt cared about me a lot. And I felt like he was there to help me learn how to practice meditation. I felt like that. And I felt like he was always there to help me. When I went to the meditation hall, he was usually there. When he went to the meditation hall, I was usually there. There was this working closely together on the practice. That's really what it was about, was the practice. Not him and me, you know. Him getting a good disciple, devoted disciple, and me getting a nice teacher who loved me and thought I was great.

[49:51]

That kind of wasn't what it was about. It was primarily that I cared about the practice and I wanted to devote myself to the practice and I wanted him to help me. And I felt like he was very kind. And I felt like he didn't distract me from the practice by showing me so much warmth that I would get confused and think that I was doing the practice because of the warmth he gave me. Some people get confused about that. They're practicing because of the warmth that they get from the teacher. And then the teacher goes away and they can't remember if they really want to practice. So sometimes, with some people, it's nice to make sure that they're practicing for the practice, not for the approval and love they get from the teacher who also loves the practice. So part of the student-teacher relationship is the student loves the teacher and the teacher loves the practice. So the student, by loving the teacher, learns to love the practice.

[50:53]

But if the teacher gives back too much love to the student, sometimes the student gets into a love relationship with the teacher and misses what the teacher really loves, is the student practicing. So he didn't distract me from the practice. I felt his support. But I didn't feel his preference or, you know, patting me on the back that I was teacher's pet or anything like that. In fact, I noticed that he was more friendly like on Sunday mornings at the temple when we lived over in Japantown. I would notice he would be really friendly with these old Japanese ladies who came to the temple. And he'd be laughing and I thought, gee, he really treats them more friendly than he treats me. But they weren't his disciple, you know. They just came to get the warmth from the teacher. And he gave it to me. But I primarily came for the practice and he didn't distract me by touching me and stuff like that. But one day, I told him I was going to go to Tassajara, my second practice period.

[51:56]

And he said, oh, good. He said, I want you to learn chanting from Tatsugami Roshi. He said, have a good practice period. And he shook my hand. And I never in my life felt such warmth and love. as it came through that hand. But I could handle it then, you know? It wasn't distracting me. So he loved me as much as anybody ever loved me, but he didn't let that love distract me and make me try to orient towards him. It's the Buddha Dharma, and the teacher helps you, and your love of the teacher helps you love the Dharma. So the touching, you know, you've got to be careful of the touching, that it doesn't distract the person from intimacy with themselves, or make you into an object that you're trying to get something from. So it's more like we're together practicing Dharma, rather than, you know, we're trying to get something from each other. And touching, you've got to be, especially when there's a lot of warmth in the relationship, you have to be careful

[53:01]

not to have that warmth be conveyed in such a way as to distract the student. So the Buddha was very careful not to distract the student with his great compassion. Does that make sense? Yes. And then my question about, I guess, the philosophy of the planet for real, practitioners, it's so, like, that's where my resistance shines. Like, the teacher practicing to emanate this earth, and they have this emanation for you to strengthen their practice of the world. Like, that's not so much where, like, my resistance is when you apply the same standards to a great practitioner who is engaging in sex, you know, like that. You mean like reproductive sex? Yeah, so it's not for me to apply the standards. It's just for me to tell you what the standards of an enlightening reproductive sexual activity would be.

[54:05]

So, you don't have to take on the standards of the Buddha into your life. If you find yourself involved in activities which could lead to the reproduction of your genetic material, okay, you don't have to apply the enlightening standards to that behavior. I'm just telling you what the enlightening standards are. Yes, they can. And enlightening beings can have sex with each other. Yeah, I sometimes say to people, you know, we have this thing about the teachers. Teachers at Zen Center don't have sex with the students. But I said, well, how about Mel and me? How about me and some like 70-year-old man or 80-year-old woman? Would that be okay? If she was like a Roshi?

[55:06]

And I think really probably it might be okay. Don't you think so? I mean, I wouldn't be doing it for myself. It wouldn't be, no. I guess any way you'd play it, it wouldn't be. You could make a date in the next lifetime. I'll see you when we're 16. But no, it is possible that it would happen, that it would be beneficial. for enlightened beings to have sexual interaction. It might be helpful. And anyway, sex is, you've got to have sex to have Buddhas.

[56:15]

So, you know, sex, there's nothing wrong with sex. Sex is part of our life. We don't have life without sex. We are not living without it. It's a question of how does it work in our lives in such a way as to be part of an enlightening relationship. That's the question here. You don't have to apply these standards that I'm proposing. Someone else might have different standards of what an enlightening relationship is. But for me, it's like I said, it's about intimacy, devotion, the bodhisattva precepts, being yourself, giving yourself to other beings, recognizing them, expecting them to give the same to you when they're ready, this kind of thing, this is an enlightening relationship and sexuality is there. Whether it leads to what we call reproductive sexuality or not, or something that looks like it, in cases of people who are beyond that stage, or people who can't reproduce, like the members of the same sex, or people who aren't fertile or whatever.

[57:19]

But the acts that are like that could happen. But how would they happen? They would happen because people really felt like it was enlightening. And they talked to their teacher about it. So if Mel and I were going to have sex, we'd have to channel Suzuki Roshi and ask him. So probably it won't happen between me and Mel. Because we can't ask our teacher. Yes? I'm a little confused now about touching. I tend to like to touch people. Yes? So... So now I'd like to, I will feel self-conscious touching people because I'll be looking at it from your point of view, which is there is sexual energy, and in order to relieve the anxiety, touch the other.

[58:21]

Yeah. Yeah, well, um, So she said she's going to be, if she thinks about what I'm going to say, she's going to be self-conscious. And it's okay with me if you're, I mean, I feel okay about you being self-conscious because if you touch people, you know, that could have a major effect on them. If you touch certain people. Especially if you touch, yeah, certain people. I mean. Like most of the world. Yeah, probably most of the people in the world. You're, you know, you're a living creature and Everything you do, like touching somebody, that could have a big effect on them. They could fall in love with you if you touch them. That could distract them from their practice for weeks. So you have a power in your body and mind. You'd be careful of that. That's okay with me if you're self-conscious. Including other females? Well, some females, yes. You can sort of do a survey and see which ones would really feel really it would be a major event for.

[59:30]

Probably less so with females in general, but some females could get quite distracted by you giving them your physical attention and touching them. And now you might think, well, I think it's good for them to be distracted. Maybe it would be. But some of them would not be able to meditate for weeks if you touched them. They'd just be daydreaming about you. Would that be helpful? Well, maybe not. So you're not talking about them. I'm talking about me. Well, it depends on your attitude, right? Sometimes people ask me if they can hug me, and I feel like maybe it's good to let them hug me because maybe it helps them relax. If I really think it's beneficial to them and I'm not doing it for myself, maybe it's all right. So like if somebody's sick, it's probably all right if you dress their wound. It probably won't turn into a sexual thing. They probably won't start daydreaming about you. They probably won't start thinking of having an affair with you. But in some cases, you know, it could be distracting to people.

[60:37]

In those cases where sexual energy can't arrive is when you don't touch people. Well, our sexual energy is already there. It's always there. It's just that when you touch people, it sometimes becomes functioning in such a way as to distract them from their work. And also, you could be distracting yourself from your work. Like, you could be with someone and feel quite anxious and just feel like if you touch them, you'd feel more relaxed. And you might do that to relax yourself. I'm going to do it to let them know I really like Yeah, and that might be something which would be beneficial to them, but it also might be something that would be distracting to them. Does that make any sense to you? It makes some sense, but not a lot. Some people come to Zen Center, okay, to pick people up, you know.

[61:41]

Some people do. Well, that's not what Zen Center is here for, I don't really think. We didn't set it up for people to come and get dates. Most people come to Zen Center to practice meditation. And sometimes when they come to practice meditation, somebody comes up and tells them, you know, I really like you. And they go, oh, well, I really like you too. And then they get involved. And then various kinds of things start happening. And then one or both of them have to leave Zen Center because they get so distracted from their meditation practice by the relationship that ensues. Even though it starts by one person saying, you know, I really like you. It depends on the attraction there, right? Yeah. They don't touch people you're attracted to or like the first step. Well, don't go around touching people that you're really attracted to and also that might be attracted to you also. Right.

[62:42]

But, for example, I can touch her. Maybe. If there is. If you're touching her and it's not about this kind of like messing around with anything, but it's really an expression of non-manipulation and just attentiveness and you're not trying to relieve your own tension or distract yourself at all. then you wouldn't be self-conscious. Your self-consciousness is probably a good sign that you're messing around a little bit. Well, in Iran, in the Muslim religion, the women had to wear chadors because if they didn't, the male would be distracted, so you couldn't really carry that to the car. he can carry it pretty far. So anyway, some people come to Zen Center intending to meditate and other people apparently in a friendly way come up and say, you know, I really like you.

[63:45]

And that's pretty much the end of their practice in the sense of like meditating at Zen Center. That happens quite a few times. People walk into Zen Center trying to find some refuge from actually oftentimes their sexual life. one of their main problems is sexuality and lots of troubled relationships around sexuality. They come to Zen Center as a refuge to try to find out what's going on with themselves, to get to know themselves better as a way to have better sexual relationships. Because you can't have a decent, you can't have a harmless sexual relationship if you don't know anything about yourself. That's why, generally speaking, we say it's not good for an adult to have a relationship with children because they hardly know what's going on with themselves. Another thing about an enlightening sexual relationship is that people should be peers. So if you have some young person coming to Zen Center or someone who's having... not much sense of themselves and as a result of that has problematic sexual relationships because they don't even know what they feel so when people approach them sexually they get pushed around because they don't even know who they are and they come to Zen Center as a refuge to that to try to find out about themselves so they can have a decent sexual relationship and then sometimes somebody comes up to them lovingly says you know I really like you and there they are with some wonderful person who says they really like them they don't know how they feel about it they get involved

[65:10]

and it just... a big painful situation happens and then they have to leave Zen Center and maybe not be able to practice anymore because they came to Zen Center to try to find out how to find out about themselves and they came and they said, well, you can't even do it at Zen Center, so I guess... and then sometimes they go to a psychotherapist, which is fine, and then maybe there they find out how to work with themselves. This is powerful stuff, this sexuality. That's why you've got to make a container Otherwise, it can really hurt people. And many people have been hurt at Zen Center because they come in and they trust, you know. They come in and they say, here, I'm safe. And they open their heart. And then someone comes and says, you know, I really like you. And they go, oh. And it's happening. Just, you know, pretty innocent. You know, I really like you. But this person thinks, hey, I'm in a place that's safe where people aren't going to put the make on me. So it really goes in. And then they're swept away, and then their lack of self-knowledge manifests again, and then blah, blah, blah.

[66:20]

And then sometimes the relationship breaks up. Usually it does. And then there they are in the same community with this person that they were intimate with, who now they're not intimate with. It's so painful. They can't stand it. One of them has to leave. Or they can barely stand it and then the other one gets involved with somebody else and then they start getting jealous. And it's a mess. This stuff is powerful. Intimacy is not, you know, like some easy thing. It is very challenging to be intimate. And just to say to somebody, I like you, and especially if you really do like them, may not be helpful. So you've got to be careful. Now, if you say, I like you, and the person's committed to the precepts, and they're your peer, and they're mature, maybe it's all right, maybe it helps.

[67:24]

It's not always wrong to say that. Suzuki Roshi did shake my hand at a certain point, but he didn't do it right away. He did it after a few years. And sometimes you can say to a person, sometimes a teacher can say to you, you know, you're my disciple. But if the teacher says that to you right away, you might get all inflated and say, oh, I'm the teacher's disciple, wow, you know. And then get really distracted and go cuckoo in your meditation. I mean, it doesn't happen to everybody, but it can happen to you. We have an example, you know, can I tell one more horror story? Or is it too much? A woman came here to Tassajara one time and we had this initiation period of five days of sitting and her seat was assigned next to mine. So for five days she sat in that seat and she thought, they assigned me this seat for a reason. It wasn't just an accident that I got this seat. I got a seat next to the person who's leading the practice period.

[68:27]

And she thought that they were assigned as a signal that she was going to be my consort. The thought crossed her mind and she just sat there and thought that for five days. Now, of course, you can say, well, she's kind of unstable. But anyway, that kind of thing with an unstable person, a little thing like that, and if I had said anything to her like, you are my disciple, you know, you're really a good student, you're my disciple. If I had said anything like that to reinforce that, then it would be even more of an excuse for her to really feel When she came out of the initiation period, she was actually really in a realm where she had been made the consort of the leader of the practice period and she had been bestowed the insignia, the certification of enlightenment. She thought that. And she was acting strangely and people told me that about it. And I went over and talked to her and I said, hello. And I could see she was in another realm. And I said, please come back.

[69:30]

This is not going to work. Nothing has happened really. Come on back over on this side. And she wouldn't come back. She really thought that this was like heaven. And she was like the queen of Buddha. And The only thing that snapped her out of it was to take a ride to the community hospital in Salinas. When she actually got in the hospital and saw the doctor, she said, Oh, I get it. You guys aren't just kidding me. I'm not. And she snapped out of it. When people are in a Zen center, they're very susceptible. Now, at a cocktail party, it's not so dangerous, actually, in a way, because the people are not there to meditate. So you say... So you say, you know, I really like you. You know what might happen there. You know the person might think you're making a pass. But sometimes you think, in this situation, your feelings are so pure,

[70:34]

and you really feel just a very pure feeling, you're not in the make, and so you say, I really like you. And you don't mean it that way, but the person's open in a way that they're not open in a cocktail party, unless they're on drugs. But you don't say that kind of thing to somebody stoned at a cocktail party. You don't say that to a drunk, I really like you, because you know what the drunk will do. But here you think, this is a beautiful person, beautiful... zen student i like you i'll tell you i don't have any sexual agenda but it goes much deeper and when it goes deep it activates all kinds of stuff and the sexuality can sometimes get mixed in there and one other thing i would say about this is that a lot of times when people first have a kind of spiritual breakthrough the spiritual breakthrough is not a is not a psychological thing But when it gets interpreted psychologically in terms of images, the images that are often used in the first interpretation are sexual imagery. Does that make sense?

[71:36]

something happens, you know, and it's a non-image thing. It's a kind of like spiritual awakening. But if you try to imagine it or put it into images, the images it often comes in are images like a shaft of light coming down, a shaft of light coming down through me or up through me, you know, or like a divine union. The imagery is often quite sexual at the beginning. And at that time of this kind of spiritual awakening, translating into this imagery which is quasi-sexual or literally sexual, or sexual dreams, if then the person is tampered with by somebody who could represent the spiritual, they can confuse the spiritual awakening with actual sexuality. And it's tremendously confusing. So this is why you need a container for this stuff, Because it's so deep and so important.

[72:41]

This is why you need to look at the precepts when you touch people. This is why if you get involved in a relationship where you're going to get physically intimate with someone, you need to recognize the weight of the situation and get help to see whether it's really appropriate and really beneficial. It's very inconvenient, but in, you know, setting up a container is necessary and worth the effort. Yes? Can you say some more about setting up a container and ? Well, like I said, You know, you might, with everybody that you get close to and you spend time with, you might get clear about what your commitments are. To let them know, so they can hold you accountable. And you vice versa.

[73:44]

And if you're involved with somebody who doesn't have the same commitments as you, then you have to, like, be careful. Because they're not accountable the same way you are. So that's a different kind of relationship. And To have a teacher involved, if you start a relationship with someone that's going to potentially get intimate, to have the teacher involved is part of the container. So the progress of the relationship is a practice It's a practice issue, so you would share what's going on on some level with the teacher. And that provides some context for both of you to have recourse to another person who can help you maybe see if you're kidding each other or tricking each other or feeding each other's darkness. Sometimes a teacher can see, or not even a teacher, but just some friend can see that you're picking somebody according to some habit. Like I know this person who chooses the same woman over and over. He didn't notice it, but they always look the same.

[74:46]

And sort of like they don't know either that what he's doing is picking the same woman over and over again. So it's nice for somebody to point that out to both parties, that this is not really about them. And do they want to get in a relationship where the person's really relating to them about somebody else? Maybe they do, but that's information that would be helpful. Let's see, what else? Sometimes a teacher can tell one of the other parties the history of the other person, which the other person sort of has forgotten. Did you know that this person... May I tell this person about your history? Are you aware of your history? Do you remember about that and that? Are you leaving anything out? And you say, no. And then later you say, oh, yes, I did leave something out actually. Yeah, I forgot to tell you that. And the teacher goes, oh, isn't that interesting? Well, that makes quite a difference, doesn't it? So I told people this morning the example of one of the priests I was training told me that he wanted to get in a relationship with a woman and he wanted to be open to it becoming sexual.

[76:02]

And he told me about it. It sounded okay. But he neglected to tell me that she had a boyfriend. which is, you know, that's kind of an oversight. But he knew she had a boyfriend, and he didn't tell me. And again, I mentioned that this person is one of the few people that sometimes often informs me more than I need to know. But in this case, he informed me less, which is quite typical, that people leave out the very thing that would make you freak. Somehow it's interesting how they do that. And then it turns out not only did she have a boyfriend, but I knew the boyfriend, who the boyfriend was. And the boyfriend was someone who had a drug problem. He was a heroin addict. And he was also sold heroin. And he also, I knew him over many years of threatening various women at various points in his relationship with them.

[77:06]

And I knew him as having gone to prison for dealing drugs and being out and going to prison for various things. And now he's in prison in Florida for seven counts of rape and one of kidnapping, this person. This person neglected to tell me about this person who I knew the history of was the boyfriend of this girl he was getting involved with. So in this case, the container didn't get built because he didn't tell me the whole story. If he told me, the container would have been built and the container would have been a container around him you know temporarily with nobody else in there with him but me saying take it easy kid stay away from this person because of this other person you're going to get in big trouble if you get involved with her and he did and he got in big trouble he had to leave Zen Center and so did she and they had to leave by the back door at night because he was watching her go in and out of the building and he would have tracked them down.

[78:08]

She had to go hide in another part of San Francisco. He had to leave. I mean, it was like deadly because he forgot to tell me something. So if you build a container, you not only have to have somebody outside who's not personally involved in the feelings here, but you have to tell them the truth too. You have to tell them the whole story. Not make them, like, drag it out. Did you leave anything out? Anything maybe that you didn't mention to me? Like, does she have a boyfriend or a girlfriend or, you know? Does she have a drug record or a criminal record? You tell the person as much as you know. That's how you make a container. Truthfully, tell the truth. Speaking is a big part of making a container. talking it's very you know as you know like most many of you know anyway it's possible for some people to get together sexually without talking you ever you know that you can like just be walking along and just sort of bump into somebody and touch it

[79:15]

You know, you don't have to say anything. Something starts happening and it seems like, well, kind of like, we can go with this, huh? But not say anything. But when you start talking, especially when men start talking, it tends to make certain women lose interest. Sometimes with men it doesn't matter that much, you know, what the woman says. Sorry, it doesn't. Because men are more visually oriented. But women, I think, are more sensitive to what the guy is actually saying. Like my wife, she kind of likes young men. She thinks they're really cute. And she says it's too bad when they open their mouth. Because they're so young. They're so young and kind of stupid often. So you just want to watch their bodies running across the field.

[80:25]

Don't talk to them. It's such a letdown. But if they tell the truth, it's not such a letdown. But still, when they tell the truth, then it makes you wake up to, oh, this is a little boy. you know, and so on. So it's not appropriate for me to get involved with him. But in silence, we can get involved. Or you talk to somebody and you find out, oh, I'm 16. Oh, how old are you? Where do you live? What do you do for a living? Oh, I'm in second grade. Oh, I see. So anyway, speaking, language, words, vows, you know, I vow this, I vow that. What do you vow? Where are you at? Who do you live with? This kind of thing builds the container. Tell your teachers, tell your friends, what do you think? How is this? This builds the container. These are my commitments.

[81:30]

Please help me. And then maybe certain things pass. Certain moments of heat pass. there still might be possibility to have a relationship, but it's not that relationship that you have with no words when it's total fantasy and so on. Does that help? If this kind of message got out and a lot of people listened to it, this would, I'm afraid, reduce the population of the planet quite a bit. And I think that would be okay. And some people listening to me talk, they sort of played this out and said, would this finally lead to no reproduction whatsoever? I don't think so. I think that's... Anyway, I don't think we have to worry about that right now. Okay, maybe that's enough, even though one could go on. This is a vast topic.

[82:32]

It's a very... It's a very important area. It's an enlightening area. It's a wonderfully enlightening area of looking at what is appropriate, enlightening function of sexuality. So if you like these little cards, these little enlightening cards, you can have them.

[82:57]

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