with Miyoshinji must be a sub-sodo of Miyoshinji and he is he would like to go to America he he talks about going there to teach I I think he's rather given to drooling from the mouth as a matter of fact that's my opinion of him although the first time I ever met him I had a entirely different experience with him well after I came back after the war this is a rather amusing I professor Kimura who is the wheelhorse out at home is on the telephone and asked it he could bring Mumon Roshi to call on me and they arrived and I'm devoted professor

[01:00]

Kimura one of the nicest men that ever lived and they came in and after they go I thought so they sat down there and for 30 minutes Mumon sat in absolute and utter quietude he never opened his mouth at all he just sat like this and at the end of 30 minutes professor Kimura having gone through all of that he and I had to talk about then said goodbye and Mumon came to and said goodbye and off he went not one word after the original goaizatsu did he address to me now unfortunately that gave me I had the feeling when he was doing that that this was a nothing but a demonstration you had no nothing else but and so I've never had never had any sense of relationship to them at all he's asked

[02:04]

me to come he's met me on the street which which I thought was very bad manners and Ryoanji I'd be coming down from Goto Roshi's I met him a couple of times and he asked me oh please come to my Teisho please come to my Teisho why do you never come to my Teisho? My Teisho? Yeah which was when he knew that I was coming from Sanzen in the early morning he'd be coming going someplace we'd meet about the railroad track you know he'd be coming over from Yoshinji and I'd be coming down from Ryoanji he knew where I was and what I'd been doing and then he'd stop and we'd chatter for a little bit because he's very chatty the very opposite of what he was demonstrating to me that day I think he's so then he would say you never come to my Teisho please come to my Teisho I have so-and-so so please come to my Teisho and I understand from what I have heard what people have told me around here that he's his invitations are just handed out hitting

[03:11]

this to anybody and that anybody who will go any foreigner who will go and live in Shofuku-ji can live there for for free you know they he will they can have everything and he's very eager to have foreigners and that the discipline given foreigners there is very haphazard and hit-and-miss and they're allowed to get up during the during the Zazen period and to go out and to move around and they're not subject to the same discipline as the monks are that's there was a young man from San Francisco who's down there now and you can ask Mermengarde about that because Crowley told her what a problem he is about in the sitting because he can't sit in the Zen Bell and how disturbing he is when he's getting up and about two years ago there was a German woman of

[04:14]

some 60 whom I think Mumona had met in the course of going around the world or something invited her anyway she was living down in Shofuku-ji and she was there for about six months and they allowed her to do the same thing to get up and down off the town during Zazen periods and so forth I don't think that there's a very tight hand on anything down at Shofuku-ji and I don't think there has been for a very very long time it doesn't have a reputation of having a very tight hand. Now then you have the men at of course Morimoto Roshi you know probably know better than I do really the there you know the Roshi at Ibuka at at what is it Sogen-ji? Kajiura. That's the Roshi where Glenn Rorion was at. That's right. I know very little about him. His name is Kajiura. Kajiura Roshi, yes.

[05:20]

That's the name of the Sogen-ji, isn't it? Sogen-ji at Ibuka outside of in the mountains outside of Gifu. Right. Well he is he's a very ambitious man and I think that he's as he gets older he's good he's about 72 by now I mean about also about 70 and he's not quite so exuberant as he used to be. He looks like an Italian. He's short and at one period he was quite stout and had quite a double chin and very large black eyes and he was very eager to be Kancho of Miyoshin-ji and he's been mixed up in some various political things. He comes from a middle class perhaps even upper middle class Japanese family and has had an excellent education and his social connections are excellent and he has all his since he's

[06:27]

been a Roshi he has been in charge of Sogen-ji. He has made a great deal of these social connections and he moves around and apparently is able to raise quite a good deal of money among the upper class people in Tokyo and so forth with whom he's on excellent terms. Some members of the Fujiwara family, Konoe family and the people of that sort that he has among his personal followers. He's not a very I think I think he's rather a volatile person. He'd always wanted he wanted originally to go to America and he was I have to go back a tiny bit you remember I told you this spoke the other night about the about a

[07:31]

man who was the Osho-san, Aon Osho had been a disciple of Sokatsu and was the priest of a temple in Chiba and who had helped Soke-yan become a Daitoku-ji priest. You said he had a friend. Yeah, Aon Osho was his name. He's dead now but the priest of Manman-ji. Now because he had been Soke-yan's sponsor at the time he became a Daitoku-ji priest and Soke-yan's death he decided or somebody decided for him that he alone could appoint the next Roshi for the Institute in America and when I came over in 1948 he met me and informed me

[08:34]

that he was the only one who could appoint a Roshi and he had appointed a Roshi and he immediately took me to Sogen-ji and introduced me to the Sogen-ji to Kajiura and Kajiura was all practically had his bags packed to go to America. His idea was that he would spend part of the year in America and the rest of the time he would spend in Sogen-ji which is a great temple and great Soto. At that time there were 60 monks there and that he had buildings he showed all the buildings that he was going to make into the foreigners living quarters in Zendo. He had it completely planned out and I in the first place Aon Osho I would not permit to decide who the next Roshi was to be

[09:40]

and my own view was that Kajiura was thought he it was a very rich arrangement that he could travel back and forth every year and there would be plenty to build up to this rather famous place for himself in connection with Sogen-ji position and so then the morning following morning at breakfast or after breakfast when we were waiting for the car to come he said well to me and Aon Osho was there and my interpreter and I expect to come to America very shortly and I replied well Roshi do come and call on me when you

[10:40]

come. He was smart enough to get what I meant by that. Nevertheless then after that he began to work on Goto Roshi and he did everything that he could to break me down and to... Aon Osho did? No, Kajiura and finally Goto Roshi after discussing the matter with me at some length told him that it was futile and to lay off. So we were not and when we would meet as I used to go occasionally to services of one kind another sometimes at Mio Shinji and I meet him and we weren't at such awfully good terms but over the last 10 years now we've become

[11:42]

very good friends. What was your actual objection to Kajiura Roshi? Well in the first the the first objection was that I didn't want any Roshi who was going back and forth and expected both things exactly what and he wanted to go back and forth every year. I mean stay so many months in America and so many months here and he had this great big temple here with 60 monks. He couldn't possibly undertake the kind of life that in those days in America that was right after the war and the Institute had little or nothing and to a man of such obviously extravagant habits as Kajiura was because in seeing the way his the well the the way the temple the guest rooms of the temple were fixed up and he's an extravagant man and he then it was largely his personality. I don't

[12:49]

suppose you just took too much for granted. Well and physical personality too. When you were in Burma did you go to Burma? No. You didn't. Well then you didn't meet a monk a Burmese monk whose name was Lokenata? No. You never met him when he was in America? No. Is he real Burmese? No. German or something? No. He's an American and his brother is a monsignor in in Brooklyn and he's a kind of a scapegoat of one kind or another and he ended up as a monk in Burma and at one point about well I don't know not too long after Sogdian died they either sent him the Burmese people did or let him come to America on a Buddhist pilgrimage and preaching trip. Well Kajiura Roshi and he could have been brothers I tell you he was a squat

[13:53]

Italian with a big belly and a double chin big black eyes swarthy and that is what Kajiura Roshi was. He's I say he slimmed down these last years but that's what he looked like a fat greasy Catholic priest Italian Catholic priest not American. Well that man had to leave America under well he was pushed out because of his actions he was and he's still first in Burma the last I heard but Kajiura later because his his things weren't going very well at the temple he had a big ruckus with his monks Morimoto was there for a long time with Kajiura. That's where he was. He was under Kajiura? Yes and you know he got one Inca supposed to have gotten one Inca from the old Roshi at Shokobuchi

[14:57]

and then he went from there to Ibuka and he was there a long time at Ibuka and he is said to have gotten a second Inca or well no he didn't get the second Inca he was about to get it when this happened and this was right after I was there in 48 49 the the I tell you he had 60 monks and the place is huge you should go 60 months after the war you should you must go and see Shogenji. That's where Asahi's interest was among too. Is that so? Well you should go to Shogenji it was the one it's the temple founded by Kanzan or not founded by Kanzan it was erected in the memory of Kanzan but Kanzan the founder of Mio Shinji did all of his after Satori practiced in that district there and back of the monastery is a rock on which his meditation seat the cliff rock and they

[16:04]

have a full larger-than-life statue of him there wooden beautiful statue beautiful face looks like almost a gothic statue and they have a special room for it and they in the days when they had 60 monks they had one monk who was this statues Onji and he washed his face and hands every morning and he brought him his breakfast and he washed his face at noon he chanted his sutras for him and he put him to bed at night well he couldn't put him to bed but I because he was he sits up in a in a chair like this magnificent figure and it's a beautiful beautiful piece of woodcarving and it's well worth seeing but that is what one monk did was to do nothing but be a tenant that was one of the jobs at

[17:06]

Shogenji well he Kajiura had the idea that it would be that they must make some money and Shogenji is in the mountains and on the side of a mountain and it is in the pine woods and he conceived the idea that they should go into the business of raising shiitake you know how they were that's it so they have to so he had all the monks out cutting trees down and digging digging trenches and then they had to lay these logs partway down in the trench you know till they got the good and wet and rotten and then they were there the bark is impregnated with this this mushroom spawn and that's the way they grow that's how they start yeah that's how they start and some farmers apparently in the

[18:10]

district had been fairly successful with this and he spent so much had the monk spending so much time and energy on the shiitake business that that brought a kind of a revolt and a whole bunch of them left including Morimoto and he left before he so the story goes before he got the Kajiura gave his income it was quite a ruckus and the the first crop of shiitake which they had all hoped to make a little money for the temple out of was all picked and shipped to Kajiura swanky friends in Tokyo which made them madder than anything. How did he run a sodo? Any word about that? I couldn't answer that. I thought it was very tough.

[19:10]

Well how long ago was he there? Quite a long while. Right after he got out of the army. That's where he went. But that would be must have been there about time I was in Morimoto was there yeah because I was there in 1948 in October 48 and he would get out of the army in 45 or 46 anyway yeah so he probably was there. Then he went to Nakagawa's place after that. Oh I see. Then he went to Shokoku. I see. Well I guess it was tough because I think life was hard there. It was awful cold, awfully cold there and but in the in later years now Kajiura has started a school the kind of a junior what not junior high school it would be a koto gaku I suppose. His idea was to or a junior university. That's where Glenn was hired to teach. That's right that's

[20:14]

where he was hired to teach. Did he tell you all of his problems? Oh told me quite a number of them. He used to come back and forth here. We'd give him a good meal and so forth. He used to tell me a little bit about it. Yeah. He was the one that told me that the monks used to go out and bathe in the pond in the middle of the winter. Well I wouldn't be surprised. It was supposed to be good shugyo. That they had that sort of thing. Break the ice and jump in. Because they were at least many of them were pretty rough bunch when I was there. But I have a lot of photographs of shogenshi that I took at that time. A lot of photographs. And now he the school it was a it's a kind of something like Hanazono. The idea that the boys can but that they can study certain university studies or what minor university studies and do be in the Sodo at the same time and have a certain amount of Sodo life. In Sanzen also he tries to combine the two in some way or other. And I don't know much about the school.

[21:23]

And he comes here from time to time to see me and when he went to he was in America. He made a trip to America and had a lovely time. Somebody gave him a very elaborate and very expensive camera. And when he came back he came to see me. And we're very into he's always asking me inviting me down to shogenshi and so forth. We're very very good friends now. And he's I think taken well I know he has loaned go take the dog and his ride. And we're excellent friends. But that is definitely a place. Well I must tell you another thing that he did that night of the first day that we got there. He had a huge kuyo for Sokeian. That was all it was all fixed you see all set up. Great big kuyo for him. He appeared in his gold brocade gold and white brocade robes. And goodness knows well it was a great to do. And of course with 60 monks it was quite a sight.

[22:27]

They have the biggest fish head drum in Japan now. They have the biggest everything. Everything is the biggest at shogenshi. It's a beautiful place. Very fine. If it's been kept up as it used to be. So that is really some place for you to visit. We'd like to see that then. And there's another roshi at a place called Heirinji which is a totally different place. And you must go to Heirinji. H-E-I. It's outside of Tokyo in a totally different direction from Hachioji. Opposite way I should say. Toward Chiba? Well I really don't know. But you wouldn't have any trouble finding it. Now that was quite a temple that was built rather late. And I can't remember what family, a famous Daniel family built it.

[23:33]

And the buildings are rather simple and all have thatched roofs. Beautiful thatched roofs. It's a very very lovely place. It's set in a woods in a flat piece of flat ground. There are no hills or anything as far as you can see. When I was there, I've been there two or three times, there were nothing but flat fields. Vegetable fields. Yeah, a regular plain. And it's set in the woods. And these beautiful beautiful buildings with their small and not in any way elaborate but still very beautiful with their beautiful thatched roofs. I think that Heirinji has gotten some kind of government, comes under some kind of government supervision now because of this architecture there. Well the man there is the older brother, downer brother of this Kajiura.

[24:38]

And he is just as different as it's possible for, of course they're not blood brothers naturally and in a sense just as different as Tofukji Roshi is from the present Miyoshinji man. This man is a square farmer. Absolutely square. And is considered one of the very finest Roshis in Rinzai Zen. If not the finest. Now he's just a farmer. His boys, when I visited him and I went several times at one time I would like to have had him go to America. They have quite good sized fields that they cultivate and he went out and cultivated with them. I was particularly, I won't say fond of, but I went to see a couple of times

[25:44]

the old priest of that temple who was blind and had been a very good painter and whom he took such lovely care of. And he also is a man who has nothing to do with the outside world at all. So I'm told. He's still just the same. He is completely limited or limits himself to his monks and it's a real country temple and it is very, very interesting to see. Everybody regretted that he was willing to take Hirinji rather than to... I guess he's a younger brother of Kajiura. I guess Kajiura was the older one. That's how he happened to get Shogenji. And there's always been... I mean, if you want gossip you hear that that, well, if Kajiura gets to be Kancho Miyashinji

[26:46]

which he's been angling for for years I mean, it's a race between him and Mumon who's going to take the old fellow's place. And the old fellow keeps on living, you know. The two of them are still at the neck and make race behind him. But how wonderful it will be for Shogenji when this Hirinji man goes back to Shogenji because he's too big for, really I mean, as far as attainment and how shall I say a synthesis within himself of the teaching and temple priest and the work, farm work and his work. It's an integrated personality and integrated completely into the form of life that he leads. Apparently no spectacular ceremonies of any kind no going out and lecturing no this and no that

[27:48]

no advertising, nothing. He's just a country Roshi living in this nice old temple with his boys about him. They're cultivating the fields. I think I've heard more respectful things remarks made of him than of anybody else I know. I think he's really considered, has been considered and now he's getting... March 29th, 1966 Rule 4, side 1 Well So Hiron was born in 1882 I think the correct date of his birth was March 15th but because he wanted to be

[28:48]

have his birthday celebrated on the day of the Buddha's Nirvana he changed it to the 15th of February so his birthday in my experience was always celebrated there. When he changed it I have no idea and I think in the Zen sect that they celebrate the Buddha's birth and the Buddha's Nirvana the same day on February 15th, don't they? December 8th, of course is the Satori They have that thing on April 8th down at the Butsu-den the sweet tea for him ceremony Well anyway he changed his to the 15th of February so that from the time I knew him the 15th of February

[29:49]

was celebrated as his birthday though it was not his birthday He was born in the town of Takamatsu in Shikoku and his father was a priest at the shrine of Konpira which is a very famous shrine for seagoing men The patron goddess of that is Benten that shrine It's a very beautiful shrine and very very famous The facts of his birth are rather interesting His father's wife whose family name I believe was Kojima and it was a very

[30:50]

good family and later one of the Kojimas became quite a wealthy man The father's family originally were samurai and even as long as his father lived he had a certain stipend which he had the family had received at the time of the restoration and that is you may know that samurai families or the heads of families were given a kind of equivalent in government bonds at that time for their rice stipend and that supported the family during all of the father's life and the mother

[31:51]

until her own death and she even left a little bit of that money when she died many years later I don't think it was a great deal but at any rate it was something his wife had no children and that was a great great sorrow and he wanted very much to have a son and so with the agreement of the family of the Kojima family his wife's family and his family his wife retired as his wife and he took a concubine he took as a concubine a young woman she was in her late teens 17 or 18 when he took her as a concubine

[32:53]

and she came from a tea family in Osaka her father was a tea teacher and her there was flower teaching in the family and so forth and she was taken as a concubine with the understanding that she would stay with him until she produced a son and that she would stay a year after that and after the son was produced and at that time she would retire and leave the child or children with him as his children and she would be given a lump sum which would be a dowry for her own marriage she evidently was quite a pretty girl and a sweet girl

[33:56]

and she quite promptly had a son she had no other children and she stayed with Mr. Sasaki three years with the father and then went home and the money was given her and she married and there's some work over the history later on and the wife came back and because she was not Sokeon's mother and everybody knew it there was nothing surreptitious or hidden about this at all it was apparently a generally known fact but she was a very conscientious woman and she always lived in fear that she wasn't giving him as much love and affection

[34:57]

as she would have had he been her own child so she showered him with love and affection of course and he was completely and utterly devoted to her he loved her very much he was very very close to his mother soon after I don't know just when the father left Takamatsu and left Konpira Shrine he was particularly well versed he was an excellent Confucian scholar and he was particularly well versed in the old Japanese language of the Shinto scriptures and hymns one thing they call their prayers, Norita, I think they call them and so he was sent I don't know whether directly

[35:59]

from Takamatsu but in the course of some time he was sent to a Shinto college in Sendai at any rate even immediately after he left Takamatsu he went to some school to a Shinto school to teach this and then eventually he was sent up to Sendai to a Shinto college in Sendai and but his problem was that he was a very heavy drinker he was a very big man 6 feet 3 and with somewhat reddish hair and he was a very heavy drinker and it was necessary eventually he was forced because of this to leave the school at Sendai and whether he had any other appointment

[37:00]

between Sendai and his appointment as a priest of the village shrine at Goi which is a small town on the Chiba the peninsula going out into into Tokyo Bay across the bay from Tokyo City that I don't know but at any rate he finally did settle in this town of Goi and his sister was living in Goi she was married to a school teacher in that area there was lots of fishing nearby the peninsula narrow and so forth and he began the father began to teach Soke-an Chinese when he was 4 he brought him up on the Confucian classics and apparently was a

[38:02]

very devoted father Soke-an always spoke of him with great affection when Soke-an was about 15 however the father was taken with a stroke as he always said as a result of this heavy drinking and at the same time the day before he died he received an appointment to Ise as a priest at Ise and of course that was a great disappointment to the family that he had to die at that point but he did die when Soke-an was 15 and left Soke-an and his mother pretty much on their own except for this money which they had she returned to her

[39:04]

own family in the sense that there seemed to be no Sasaki family for her to remain in and so she became a member again of the Kojima family and that was rather a serious matter for Soke-an because as a Sasaki he would have been his father's heir at least he would have been in the position inherited the position of the head of that family but when he was taken into the Kojima family he was the least important member of the Kojima clan and he often has told me about when they had questions to decide particularly questions which concerned what they would do with him that

[40:05]

the Kojima family would sit around in the room in there according to rank the elder male at the head of the line and so on down the line according to their rank and he was always the cow's tail the very last one in this long line of family members and the responsibility for educating this boy and so forth was with the Kojima family and they didn't see any particular reason for educating him particularly well and he showed some inclination at least for work with his hands so they decided that he better be a carpenter

[41:06]

and so they apprenticed him to a carpenter somebody I think in Kamakura because the family was located around Tokyo and he was apprenticed for the carpenter about two years I think but before he had been apprenticed too long it was discovered that he could carve and so instead of working as a common carpenter he was permitted to do to learn the trade of carving little bits and pieces that were used on buildings ornaments for buildings and so forth for instance he was taught to carve elephant's heads and dragons and if you remember that picture that Ken had of a village

[42:11]

shrine or temple you remember it had the crossbar with an elephant head that kind of thing was what he could carve so after he had been with the with the carpenter for a couple of years he then started out to earn a living for himself and he had begun to think about writing poetry a little bit and he took a whole year and he went walking through the mountains of the Shinshu district and there were quite a few temples being restored or built and he heard about one where they wanted a dragon head carved or something else done and for the whole year

[43:13]

he moved from one place to the other, one village to the other earning his livelihood by this temple carving whatever it was he was able to do at the end of that year he always spoke about that with great pleasure he enjoyed it very much, this walking, he loved to walk anyway when he got back that would be about 1900-1901 the family decided that he could go to the to the university and he went to the imperial academy of art which was connected with the Tokyo government university and it was situated in Ueno he had his mother then moved very close

[44:15]

took a house or rooms or something close by and he had to help out with his money for education so holidays he worked in the post office he had the two things happened as a result the first one was that he entered into the art class of a man by the name of Takamura Koen who was at that time the leading modern style sculptor in Japan and he became quite famous he had studied in Paris and he was considered tops in that field and Takamura Koen took a great fancy to him to Sokean and after the first

[45:16]

year invited him to live in his house as a house student or at least to spend some of his time there because he never did live there entirely and after the war of course Takamura Koen was dead long before that but after the war when I came back one of the first people I contacted because of letters and things I found among Sokean's things was his Takamura Koen's son who is the very greatest bronze caster in Japan and the two men were just about the same age as young fellows both going to the Imperial Academy and were of course being in the same house in the same atelier with the old Takamura the little Kanon that I have

[46:17]

in my shrine in my Tokunoma is one of Takamura Koen's the father's which the son gave me at that time as a gift the other thing there were three things at that same time he began to meet poets and I wish I could remember right now the name of the famous poet whose disciple, whose deshi he became whose briefcase he carried and he also I met after I came back after the war he was then a man nearly 80 he long since died but he was one of the leading classical poets of Japan and through him and under his tutelage Sokean studied poetry basically and then

[47:19]

of course in the course of his the first couple of years after he'd been at this imperial art school he heard about Zen and Sokatsu and he always told that story the same way that one of his ways of earning of arbeit was working in the post office and a number of boys from the art school worked together in the vacations of this same post office and they used to have great conversations, discussions about this and that and the other thing and they were given one of the major western philosophical works that they art philosophy or art that they had to study

[48:20]

now wait a minute the German I've got it in the library I found a copy of it years ago here I have it just but I've never read it but you would know the name well I'll think about it no no it was later than that um well at any rate one day they were one of the two words that came up in the course of this of this study which were new to them was were the words objective and subjective and this these two words and what these two words meant was a matter of great great interest particularly and struggle to understand on the part of Sokan so one day they were having a

[49:23]

discussion about this and he was in the post office in their lunch hour and he said what about the struggle he was having to understand and so forth and one of the boys said oh well if you want to understand subjective and objective you want to study Zen and then he told him about Sokatsu who had this Zen master who had this place in Ueno Park not far from the university for the art academy and to whom a good many students went for Zen study so Sokan went right off to him and that is how he began his Zen study and in 1905 he graduated from school

[50:23]

in the meantime he had studied Zen apparently with Sokatsu for some two or three years he graduated in April and he was immediately called up for the Manchurian war or the Russo-Japanese war and he was sent to to Manchuria in the beginning he was put in a supply company but very soon they discovered that he could very shortly the war came to an end as a matter of fact and in order to keep the troops interested or keep them from being too bored the troops that couldn't be immediately

[51:24]

sent back to Japan and demobilized they organized dramatic companies and things like that over there and he was put at painting scenery doing things like that for this dramatic business but he was very shortly he was in the next year he was spring of the next year he was demobilized himself and came back to to Tokyo he hadn't been back here very long, he went immediately back to Sokatsu and he hadn't been back here very long when Sokatsu told him that he was planning to go to America with this group of some 14 people and suggested that and arranged for Sokyan

[52:27]

to marry one of his girl students she had, her family had, were people who lived in Sakhalin and they had salt fields Sakhalin was a big salt producing company they had they produced sea salt and refined it in some fashion up there and she had some little money apparently after their father and mother died the brother continued her brother continued to run the business and the two sisters came down to Tokyo and in the course of time she got connected up with Sokatsu in some way and she was very bright, a tiny little bit of a thing but bright

[53:27]

and energetic and so Sokatsu arranged this marriage and of course I think I've already told you they all went off in the fall of 1906 for America including Goto Roshi there were some 14 of them and they settled at Hayward and you have the story of their strawberry experience and so forth there but Sokatsu felt after that after the first year that it was useless for them to try to do that sort of thing because the boys were trained for university students who knew nothing about farming or anything and he had a serious quarrel with Sokatsu and he was thrown out of the group then he went to San Francisco with his wife and I don't know what

[54:27]

he did for a livelihood or whether she had money or what, I don't know but at any rate, among other things that he was able to do was to enlist not enlist but to enter the art school, I think it was called the San Francisco Institute of Art or something like that to study western painting now what else he did or what he did to support them during that time, I don't know at any rate, after a bit within another year the Sokatsu decided to come back the farm was impossible so they came into the whole group came in and took a big house in San Francisco and then Sokatsu was admitted to the Sanzen again

[55:28]

and part of the group and he continued his art studies and as I say, I don't know what he did for earning a living and I think his son was born at that at that time during that period then of course 1910 Sokatsu returned to to Japan and Sokatsu went up to Seattle when he stayed there for about for four years or more about four years and to support himself there his wife had another child a daughter he became a worked for a picture frame maker in those days they had hand carved

[56:29]

frames with carving on the corners leaves and things like that and he had an arrangement with the frame man and with his wife that he would stay home about six or seven months of the year and the other four or five months he could have free to do what he wanted and so among other things there was a paper a Japanese paper called the Hokubei Shimpo Hokubei Shimpo in Seattle a Japanese language paper and there were quite a good many Japanese people farmers who were on isolated farms way back in the country in Oregon and Washington

[57:30]

up the Columbia River Valley and things like that so to make a little money and to make a reason for moving here and there he would go and collect the money for their yearly subscriptions to this Hokubei Shimpo and make a walking trip out of it one year he went up the Columbia River Valley, spent the summer in the Columbia River Valley walking up that and stopping at these farm houses and staying there and getting his lodging and food and going on to the next place and so on another year I think probably I don't know which was first he went to some valley in Oregon some man he knew had some kind of an orchard there and he used to tell how

[58:31]

that summer that he tramped all through those mountains and when he was

[58:40]

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