As is often said, all living beings have Buddha nature. Buddha nature. The Chinese way of saying it is Buddha nature. The Sanskrit is Buddha element. Buddha dhatu, Buddha element. And there's another, yeah, so there's another teaching which is that we are what is called the Tathagata Garbha. The Tathagata is the Buddha, and Garbha could be translated as womb, or matrix, or heart.

[01:02]

We are the Buddha heart. Buddhahood is realizing our Buddha heart, or our Tathagatagarbha. It is realizing our Buddha nature. Buddhahood inherently includes, let me say it, I'll put it this way, you might not be surprised if I said Buddhahood inherently includes all goodness. That might sound like Buddhist propaganda.

[02:04]

But still maybe not so surprising. Oh yeah, Buddha, all goodness, all compassion, and all skillful ways to help people become Buddha. All kinds of wisdom. You might not be surprised to hear that. This teaching is saying that Buddha inherently includes all the various kinds of evil. Maybe we could tentatively have the definition of evil be whatever causes suffering. Buddha includes all the causes of suffering, and Buddha also includes all the suffering. Buddha accepts all the suffering, and by completely accepting all kinds of suffering, we have what's called the end of suffering.

[03:25]

Simultaneous with the end of suffering, due to the acceptance of all of it, there is the presence of suffering. So there's an end of it, and it's always present. The suffering is not eliminated in Buddhahood and Buddhahood does not need to eliminate it and can't anyway. But Buddhahood is and can accept it all and include it all. And by including it all, end it without getting rid of it. Or you could say, come to the end of it by fully accepting it.

[04:28]

So, again, you've heard me say stuff like this before, what I just said, plus tonight I'll just say, our joy includes our sorrow. Our sorrow includes our joy. Evil includes good. Our good includes evil. Delusion includes enlightenment. Enlightenment includes delusion. Welcome, Jeff. Have a seat there for you. And again, I just remind you, just to sort of warm up the meditation, that Buddha nature is our true nature, is the way we really are, which is related to the word tathagata, the way we really are.

[05:51]

the thusness or suchness of the way we are and the way everybody else is, that way that we are, really, which is pure, is in association with, you can say, pollution, defilement, stains, Our Buddha nature includes evil, it's in association with evil. The Buddha nature is the way we really are, which is pure. It's the way we really are, it's the way everything really is, and it is in association with attachments and misconceptions.

[06:54]

So again, the sutra says, the Buddha says, now I see all living beings fully possess the Buddha nature, but because of attachments and misconceptions, they don't realize it. But it's kind of funny that way because all beings have the Buddha nature which has attachments and misconceptions. And so if I say, and so they don't realize it, they don't realize this Buddha nature which has these attachments and misconceptions. The realization of this suchness, the way things are, in association with these attachments and misconceptions, the realization of that is Buddhahood.

[08:07]

Buddhahood is not just the realization of the way things are. Buddhahood is the way things are without defilement, which comes by realizing the way things are with defilement. And we all have this nature, which is pure and the way things really are, and has these defilements, and if we realize that, that's Buddhahood. And the realization of that does not try to get away from that. The realization of Buddha nature does not try to get away from Buddha nature, which means it doesn't try to get away from the defilements and misconceptions. It practices, Buddhahood practices compassion towards

[09:21]

the defilements towards the misconceptions and the attachments. In this practice of compassion, it comes to completely accept the stains and the suffering that comes with them. And again, completely accepting is the fruit of the practice of practicing compassion with our Buddha nature. But it's, you know, our compassion is mostly in some sense towards the defilements because we can't really, I shouldn't say we can't, but it's hard to imagine and be mindful of practicing compassion towards the way things are. Because we can't see the way they are. So part of our nature is

[10:22]

Misconceptions, but another way to put it is part of our nature is we are misconceivers. We have mental apparatus which make everything into a misconception of it. First of all, a conception of it. We make ourselves into conceptions, we make other people into conceptions, and then we misunderstand that they're conceptions rather than what they actually are, which we can't get a hold of. And we've got equipment to, you know, Kind of like avoid the way people are. Not really avoid, to try to avoid the way people really are, which we can't get a hold of, and make them into something we can get a hold of.

[11:25]

And then we can see those things. And then if we practice compassion towards these things which have arisen because of our relationship to them, I shouldn't say, we practice with these conceptions, these perceptions of things, which have arisen because of our relation to them. So I have a relationship with you that gives rise to a perception of you. You're not a perception, but in my relationship with you, you appear as a perception, and that is a misconception of the way you really are. Now, what is the way you really are, and what is the way I really am? Well, I am an experience. And you are an experience, moment by moment. Each moment, you're an experience. And in being an experience, sometimes you could say you're an experiencer and an experienced.

[12:32]

Yes? Yeah, I am an experience. And I am an experience which, as I've told you many times before, I am an experience which is a conversation where the whole universe comes and has a conversation with the whole universe and gives rise to me. And I have misconceptions. But the way that they actually arise is the way they really do arise. And I never am out of touch with the way I really do arise. I'm never out of touch with my true nature, with my suchness.

[13:36]

which is pure. And I'm also never out of touch with my misconceptions and my attachments. And this practice, the practice that flows from this teaching is not to try to get away from misconceptions, which means don't try to get away from the way things appear. But also here the teaching that the way they appear is a delusion. So we're meditating on delusion with a teaching which is saying, this is the delusion, but right simultaneous with the delusion is the way things really are. And it's not, again, so much that we're going to get away from the delusion and connect with the way things really are, because we're already connected with the way things really are. It's more like we're going to let go of the delusions, and when we let go of them without getting rid of them, because you can't get rid of a delusion, but you can let go of it, and there's something left, which is the way we really are, which includes the delusion, which includes the evil,

[15:07]

But although I include the evil, I can also let go of it. And the way I let go of it is, well, by confessing and saying, I'm sorry. And then, if I let go of it, or if it's released, what's left? Buddhahood. Which is the suchness which I had all along, But now the defilement, which was with my suchness all along, has just been dropped off. And again, if I try to get rid of it, that's not dropping it off. If I try to get away from it, that's not dropping it off. If I try to hold on to it, of course, that's not dropping it off. And one thing more is just to remind you

[16:09]

So the way I really am is I'm a conversation of the whole universe with the whole universe, giving rise to the whole universe as me, in this way. Each one of my experiences is the whole universe meeting the whole universe, giving rise to the whole universe as my life experience. So my actual life experience is all of you meet all of you and give rise to me, and all of us meet all of us and give rise to you, to you as your experience, which you cannot see or get a hold of. You can't get a hold of how the whole universe, in conversation with the whole universe, is in the form of you. And the whole universe, in conversation with the whole universe, giving rise to you, gives rise to a being who can imagine a small, deluded version of herself.

[17:27]

That's part of the deal. And again, don't try to get rid of it, because the whole universe got together with the whole universe to make your delusions. So you're not going to... Your delusions. Your delusions are actually part of your experience. They're not all of it. They're kind of like the visible part. They're the part you can attach to and suffer with. Or suffer with and suffer because you attach to it. But again, we can practice with the delusions and the suffering and let go of it, but again, not try to get rid of it, because your Buddhahood does not eliminate it. Buddhahood accepts it as being present. And then once again, we have these different, these seven points of this teaching is presented with seven points.

[18:34]

First point is the Buddha. Next point is the Dharma. Next point is the Sangha. First is the perfect enlightenment. Next is the teaching. And next is the community that practices it. These three arise from the Buddha nature, my Buddha nature and your Buddha nature. and the realization of Buddha nature, also called Buddha. So our Buddha nature, my Buddha nature, your Buddha nature, and Buddha, the realization of that Buddha nature, and the qualities of Buddha, and the activities of Buddha, all that gives rise to the three treasures, Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. And from the Buddha comes the Dharma, comes the teaching. From the teaching comes the Sangha. And from the Sangha comes the womb of the Buddha.

[19:42]

Yes? Can suffering be experienced as something other than suffering? At a certain point, is it possible for suffering to be transformed. The same substance, but transformed into another substance that is not painful. Is it possible to transform suffering into something else that's not painful? Well, in a way. So if you're compassionate with suffering, then the suffering has already been transformed. Because rather than just being trouble and painful, it has now become an opportunity for practice. So in a way, the suffering, because your attitude towards it changed, and you see suffering now as opportunities to express

[20:51]

and to elicit Buddhahood, somehow the suffering has changed. It's changed into a skillful means, an opportunity for skillfulness. In a way, it does change when you or I see it not as an obstacle, but as an opportunity. And so these sufferings, which go with the misconceptions and the attachments, the misconceptions, the attachments, and the sufferings, we can change our attitude towards them, and now they're all opportunities to realize Buddhahood. Yes. Well, you just continue to think about whatever you want.

[22:02]

I mean, not whatever you want. Whatever you're thinking about, you continue to think as usual. You always think about what you're thinking about. And you're always thinking. So you're always thinking, and you're always thinking about something. So that will continue. Now, you just watch that with the understanding that what you're watching is delusion. So it's just like you frame it, oh, delusion. a misconception of what's going on, something that's relative to my equipment, not the thing itself. So I have a teaching which reminds me to look at everything that way and also remember that I don't have to change at all to realize Buddhahood, because Buddhahood is the realization of the way I am, and the way I am is visibly I am somebody who has vision, and my vision delivers delusions all the time.

[23:08]

So that's the way I am, and I'm also the whole universe coming together with the whole universe. And I'm also including everybody in the universe. I'm that way. I can't see that, but I heard a teaching about it. And I'm included in everybody, which also I can't see, I've heard it too many times. And I can realize that, but also I'm not just going to realize the way I am purely, I'm also going to realize the way my purity is in association with my delusion and suffering. But I start So we have another class at Green Gulch, and in that class I've been talking about our ceremonies where we receive the Bodhisattva precepts. And we receive 16 Bodhisattva precepts, and the first three are Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha.

[24:17]

But before we receive these Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, In the ceremony we practice confession and repentance. All my ancient twisted karma born of beginningless delusion and greed and hatred, born through body, speech and mind. So I have these actions which are born through my speech, my gestures and my thoughts. which are all mixed up with greed, hate, and delusion. So I have these actions mixed up with greed, hate, and delusion, and my body, I confess them. And I confess them like I meditate on them. First of all, I just say that, and I meditate on it, and then I'm ready, after that, to go back home to Buddha. which is the realization of how I drew this greed, hate and delusion thing along with the way things really are.

[25:32]

So now I'm looking at somebody and while I'm looking at her, I'm simultaneously imagining who she is, but I don't believe that. Yes? Fortunately, which you think I am, you're not being mean to. Yeah, or you could say, you come to the end of suffering, and then we have what's called peace, right at the end of suffering. So here's the suffering, you're coming to the end of it, you're going through it, all the way to the end of it, there's no more suffering, you've got all of it now, and there's joy right there, the joy was always there,

[26:53]

But because you didn't go to the end of the suffering, you're shrinking back from the edge of the suffering, or the limits of the suffering, which is where the happiness starts, where the pleasure starts. So you go to the end of it, and you're free of it, and you didn't get rid of it. So I've been having trouble with this vow, which is, The delusions are inexhaustible, but really the character isn't delusion, it's affliction. And affliction is short for delusion, hatred, and greed, etc. So these afflictions are inexhaustible, and we say, I vow to end them. So it's more like I vowed to come to the end of them or I vowed to exhaust them. They're inexhaustible, I vowed to exhaust them. And exhausting them is where you wake up to the joy that always was included.

[28:02]

But if I don't fully accept the suffering, the door on the joy which is already there is closed by my half-heartedness in my Affliction. And Buddha is not half-hearted about affliction. Her own and everybody else's. Buddha is accepting the omnipresence of suffering, and therefore Buddha is accepting the omnipresence of freedom from suffering simultaneously. by being wholeheartedly compassionate with them.

[29:17]

I just got this image in my mind of something I saw at the airport, some airport, I think it was maybe either on the way to or in Japan. So I'm in the waiting area about to get on some plane, and I see this woman who, I think she was Japanese, but I don't know. Anyway, she looked like she's from Japan or China, one of those countries where people look a certain way often. And she had a little boy that she was taking care of. And he was running all over the the waiting area, and she was running after him. But she wasn't trying, she didn't have him on a leash. She wasn't trying to control him. She was just his devoted attendant, and she went everywhere with him.

[30:22]

You know, I don't know if she got that far, I don't know if she got to the end of the, what's the word, the delusions that she had about that little boy. I don't know if she got to the end of the suffering of protecting him from harm. But she was kind of letting him go. It looked like she pretty much let him go. He wanted to go a lot of places. He was not trying to fly, which, you know, that's good. I mean, it's easier to let little boys go when they're not trying to fly. But he was just being a kind of reasonable little boy, just running around, on the verge of smashing his head into chairs and falling downstairs, but he was there. And maybe in such a case, she would be challenged to let him go and also simultaneously protect him.

[31:39]

But she was doing a very good job of basically letting him go. And it was, I don't know if she was having as good time as I was, but the little boy was having a really nice time because he wanted her to, part of the fun was she was going with him on all these adventures. I think he appreciated that she was there and letting him do what he wanted to. And I was appreciating that she was doing that. I don't know if she was, but I think she was close to getting to the place of realizing that, you know, Buddhahood. That's how to... practice with this in order to let go, is to wholeheartedly engage with it and give up trying to control it. Wholeheartedly engage with suffering and with delusion without trying to control it. And that comes to the end of it.

[32:49]

And that's freedom with it. With it. That's freedom in it. And we're not just doing that for ourselves, we're doing it to transmit to sentient beings, so it isn't that we save them, but the practice which we can actually become mature in, that practice will save them when they see it and they start practicing it. And our true nature is what makes this saving possible. No. I think that greed, hate and delusion are born from believing appearances. If we understood that what we are right now is the whole universe coming together

[33:57]

meeting the whole universe, giving rise to the whole universe where we are, we would understand that there's nothing to get a hold of, and therefore there'd be no greed, and there's nothing to avoid or get rid of, therefore there would be no hatred, and also there would be no confusion, because we wouldn't be trying to make this wonderful life into this little pipsqueak of a perception which we think is what's really going on. So there would be no delusion either if we realize the way we actually are. And also, realizing the way we actually are, we also realize we don't have to get rid of any of these delusions. We don't have to have any more delusions than we've got. We've got them all. We include all delusions and all goodness Yes. What about some boundaries? Boundaries? Yeah.

[34:58]

The little boy turns and slaps the mother and spits at her. Yeah. Well, that's not a boundary, that's a slap. At what point the mother has to protect... Well, at what point the mother has to what? Protect her Buddha nature. your Buddha nature. Your Buddha nature, it doesn't need any protection. Because your Buddha nature is the way you are. And you don't need to protect your delusions. But you do need to be kind to your delusions. Your delusions, whenever you've got a delusion, it doesn't need any protection. It's like, it's like a big fat boss delusion. It's calling for compassion. I'm talking about a bully believing that another person can be abused.

[36:06]

There's some boundary. I thought you're talking about the mother who got slapped. Yes. But you want to switch to the person who's slapping her? We can do either side of the... Well, that's kind of what bullies are about. They're trying to control people. How do you teach a little boy not to be a bully without a second thought? You don't just hit other people. Why do you want people to hit you? How do you do that? I think that's good. Again, you're saying limits, you're saying boundaries, you said set. For me, I actually myself try not to set boundaries, I try to feel them.

[37:07]

I try to feel them and also listen to what if other people are telling me about their boundaries. and be compassionate to my feelings of boundaries, and being compassionate towards what I'm hearing as other people's boundaries. And boundaries are like the limit of a, a delusion has a boundary. A feeling, there's a feeling of boundary. These are things to meditate on and be compassionate towards. And if I'm compassionate towards the boundaries I feel, then this is an opportunity, maybe, to tell somebody else about them. Just... Yeah, okay, so... Yes? No, but in the case... Wait a second.

[38:11]

If you, if you, did you say you feel it's your boundary? Yeah. So I have to slow down here a little bit, okay? So when my, if my granddaughter slaps me, which I've told you about, I don't slap her back. I say, oh, that was really hard. And I say, actually, I'm a grown man, and it didn't hurt me that much, but if you did that with another kid, it would really be a problem. But I'm not, yeah, so I felt a boundary myself. And then I was kind to my boundary, and so I could be kind to her. I didn't think you did say that, but then you said, it doesn't matter whether it's my boundary or not, but if it's not my boundary then someone else can tell me about theirs, and I can be compassionate to their boundary.

[39:28]

Is this working for you? To be compassionate? I guess I'm not talking... You can generalize, that's fine, and then there can be boundaries on generalizations, too. That's fine, you can do that. But some people are interacting with each other, and they're perfectly comfortable with each other, and you think there's a boundary there, and they don't think so. I mean, I shouldn't say they don't think there's a boundary. They feel comfortable with the way the boundaries are being related to. For example, I felt comfortable with the way the woman was relating to her son. Somebody else might have thought, you shouldn't be letting that boy go around like that, because he might get hurt. But I felt really good that she gave him that space. But someone else could have had, in them, they could have had a boundary arising that they think the child should be tied up.

[40:42]

They might have thought that, because if you don't tie the kid up, he might hurt himself. But that would be their boundary, that they would feel about this relationship where I didn't feel, I felt comfortable with the way the mother was negotiating her sense of what was safe for the boy. And if somebody else is watching and they think that this child should be tied up so he won't hurt himself, then I can respect what they're saying. And if they say it in a way that I feel uncomfortable with, then now I feel my boundary about the way they're talking about relating to this other person. So boundaries do come up. And this teaching that I'm offering is saying when boundaries come up, I don't try to control them. I try to. to the end of them, and then I can let go of them.

[41:45]

But not by ignoring them, and not by what? Not by ignoring them, not by trying to control them or other situations. If I try to control your boundaries, you might feel a boundary arise in you in relationship to my attempt to control you. A lot of people do. I want you to tell me more now. Right, but what I'm saying is that if you feel that what your child is doing is not appropriate, for me that's your boundary, that you're feeling.

[43:14]

Someone else might not feel, but for them that might be within their boundaries. What your child is doing might be within their boundaries. If you want to play it out into more and more extreme examples, I'm happy to do that. But I'm just saying that the meditation that I was talking about is that I am aware that I'm dealing with my delusions, that I have a delusion about what's going on, and I'm feeling like I'm having some boundary problems. I'm starting to feel like I need to say, wait a minute, I feel like I need to say something to the person, like they're getting too close to me, or they're talking too loudly, or they're pushing me too hard, you know?

[44:24]

I just naturally feel a boundary in this situation. They're getting too aggressive for me. This is my perception, this is not a reality that they're getting too aggressive, it's just I think so. And I have the responsibility to take care of them. I think that they're getting too aggressive, whether they're 300 pounds or 35. I think they're getting too aggressive. So how do I relate to a small, medium, or large person when I feel they're getting too aggressive? It's not appropriate to be this aggressive. I can feel that way. So how do I relate to them? Well, first of all, I start with myself. This is my version of what's going on. And my version is not reality. But I have to respect my version. My version is, this is too much. I'm uncomfortable with this. And I feel I should say something about it.

[45:27]

But if I'm aware that it's a delusion, that I'm working with, and I've got a person over there who's not my idea of them, they're actually a living person, then I can go to them and I can tell them about my boundary in a way that is informed by my meditation, that I'm sharing with them my misconceptions and my attachments. Then it's an opportunity to practice Buddhism with this person. And it doesn't mean that this approach will be... I don't think saying this is going to be more likely to disarm the situation than the other way, which is, I see this situation and this is reality, and then to follow from that. I'm not saying that that approach will be less likely to disarm the situation, but I'm saying that way will not lead to peace.

[46:30]

It will not, and this way will. They're both difficult, but this way here respects my feelings, my boundaries, within my delusions, and therefore, when I approach the person, I approach humbly, not arrogantly, like I I'm not aggressive, and you are, and this is uncomfortable for me, and I'm going to try to control you. If I feel that way, I feel like I'm temporarily disqualified from the practice. I have to come back and deal with my self-righteousness and then say, oh yeah, I'm kind of I'm kind of ashamed, I was really self-righteous there, and I was on the verge, maybe, of being aggressive towards this aggressive person.

[47:32]

Now I've recovered, I saw that signal, I took care of myself, and I still have the boundary, I still feel this, but now I'm sharing my delusion with the person, or my fantasy. So I often say to people, I have this fantasy about what's going on here. Could I tell you about it? Yes, and then, Katie? Did you have your hand raised? It was about the language of violence. And what I understood is that the language of violence coming at me, I have a boundary. So what I'm saying is a little bit different. You're saying the language of violence is coming to me? The language and the action. The words and the gestures of violence are coming towards you.

[48:35]

What I'm saying is that this language of violence there, that that phenomena is relative to me. It's not actually out there sitting by itself. The ball of language of violence is not out there by itself. But it looks like it is. You're saying, when you have a certain history. And I'm saying, because I have a certain history, this is what I see. Somebody else has a different history, they see something different. Both people, what they're seeing is relative to their own system, with their own equipment. What they're seeing is not out there, but it looks like it's out there. Like this person sees the language of violence, this person sees something, I don't know what.

[49:39]

But it doesn't mean we It doesn't mean we... I'll put it positively. We should respect this delusion. Then we can respond to it appropriately. But if we see it as, that's the language of aggression or violence, rather than, this is what I see. I see cruelty. Now, like I just read in the New Yorker, the theater of cruelty is unfolding on our southern border. This is what that person who wrote that article is saying. And then he talks about Trump, okay? And I listened to that and I'm moved by it, but also, somebody else reads that article and has quite a different response to it.

[50:45]

So what do I do when I see cruelty? What I'm seeing is my story that does cruelty. If I'm respectful to it, then it turns into an opportunity to practice It still looks like cruelty, that's how my equipment put it together, as cruelty, but now I see this is an opportunity, like this is a job for Superman. This is a job for Buddha. This is stimulating me to come forth with practice, but not at all pushing away my delusion that this is cruelty. But this delusion is calling for compassion. Cruelty is not calling for more cruelty. And also, kindness is not calling for cruelty.

[51:49]

I'm saying everything is calling for compassion. And so if I see cruelty, what I'm seeing is my story about this, and I can practice compassion towards my story and the people involved in my story. And I can have limits, like, you're talking too loud, you're getting too close, you're waving your arms too much, you're being disrespectful, or to say it this way, I'm feeling uncomfortable. of what you're doing right now. I feel I need you to speak more quietly. Like we say, I need you to use your indoor voice. I need you to use your words. I need you to sit down. I need you to be more respectful. Please be more respectful. But I have to say that in a way that's respectful of this bully. In other words, what I see as a bully. And again, I tell this story so many times.

[52:50]

Here it is again. My friend's on a trolley in Japan and the trolley stops and a big man gets on the trolley and he looks like a bully. He's walking up the aisle glaring at everybody and he's big and he's threatening. looking at people very threateningly. That's what my friend saw. And probably some of the other people saw that too, this big thing. But each person had their own picture of him. And my friend, who was an Aikido master, said, when it gets to me, I'll take care of him. But the trolley stopped and a man got on a little, a small, old man got on and saw the man, and he saw, oh, here's an opportunity for compassion, and he said, what's the matter, sweetheart? And the man broke down into tears.

[53:54]

His wife had just died. So, how can we see that the bully is calling for compassion? I have to recognize, this is my delusion, here's a bully. I have to be compassionate to my story. This is a bully. And then I can realize this bully is calling for compassion in this way called storming around. And this man, he not only disarmed the person, but he helped him. he gave him what he was asking for, which nobody else, well, maybe some other people did, but maybe nobody else on the trolley could see that this man was calling for compassion. They're all just like, here's a bully, and they didn't know how to deal with their own sense of here's a bully in such a way as to be able to say, what do you want? What do you want, person who looks like a bully to me?

[54:57]

You might not say that right at the beginning. You just might say, can I help you? What do you want? What do you need? And really mean it, because you see this as an opportunity. And does that disarm the situation? Sometimes. Always. Even the Buddha couldn't stop everybody that tried to hurt him. But he did, on a number of occasions, meet people who were Well, in one case, the person who actually had murdered many people, and he was going to murder the Buddha. And the Buddhist thought, oh, here's an opportunity to protect people. And so he went up to the guy and told him, well, I'm your friend. And the guy didn't buy it. But he's basically there to try to help this super bully. And he felt a limit, he felt like, this guy is too, he's appearing too aggressive to me.

[56:01]

I want to save people from him and him from this behavior. So, you're giving me a facial expression which means to me, I'm not sure what you're trying to say to me right now. And who is the next person? Katie? So it seems like one might say it's possible to gain great insight or benefit from liberation. It might be possible to gain great insight from what? The realization of Buddhahood is based on realizing the relationship between delusion and reality.

[57:04]

That's what makes Buddhas. So, yeah, if you think a Buddha is a beneficial thing, because Buddhas come with all these skills and ways of helping people, the Buddhas come from the sewers. But not just the sewers, because the sewers are always inseparable. from reality. So yes. Yes, yes, yes.

[57:33]

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