Good morning, everyone, and welcome. So we have a wide assemblage. I see people from New York City and Kansas City and St. Paul, Minnesota and Nashville and Indiana. And Juan Pablo's here from Argentina. And Tyler, welcome. Good to have you here from Canada. So, hi everyone. I want to talk today about taking refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. The first three of our 16 precepts, basic practice for many forms, most forms of Buddhism. And I wanna talk about them in the context of our being in the middle of pandemics. So there's the COVID pandemic, and I'm still mostly sheltered at home.

[01:09]

I'm out for short walks. Some of you are out and doing things, many are staying in. So this is, I don't know what the number is now, but over 100,000 people in the United States dead from this. At the same time, we have the pandemic of collapsing or at least chaotic economy. We don't know how this will proceed. We don't know about all of these, but many people out of work. So it's a difficult time in terms of that. And we also have the pandemic of racism. And this is the, maybe the most deadly and the oldest of all of them, 400 years of lynching and in the last week people, people of all races, colors out on the streets protesting.

[02:19]

So this is, An interesting event in our life. And I would add, there's a fourth pandemic, which is climate chaos, which has affected us already. It's related to the spread of viruses, so it's affecting us in many ways and will continue to do so. So we live in strange, difficult times. What does it mean to take refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha in this time? So taking refuge in Buddha in some ways is the heart of our practice. And maybe all the other precepts, all the other of our 16 precepts and all the other Bodhisattva practices just come from taking refuge in Buddha. In all the Koan collections, taking refuge in Buddha just through asking, what is Buddha? And in our actual practice, the sitting practice we've just been doing, sitting upright and calm like Buddha.

[03:27]

This is the heart of our practice. How do we find our own Buddha on our own seat? How do we find Buddha and express Buddha in our own body mind? So this is the starting point and maybe everything else comes out of taking refuge in Buddha. We turn to Buddha. We express Buddha. We inquire about Buddha. So... Again, everything else comes out of that, taking refuge. We also take refuge in Dharma. Dharma is the teachings, but it's also truth, reality. We take refuge in reality. And now that includes science. Not that science has all the answers, but science is a method for looking at reality.

[04:33]

So, part of our practice is to trust in science and the ongoing questions that science asks itself. And we take refuge in the Sangha. Sangha is community. So this particular Sangha of Ancient Dragons, Engate, which is now a Zoom Sangha with people coming from different places, but also people in Chicago who are here. We take refuge in Sangha, and Sangha also means Sangha of all beings. Sangha means interconnectedness, that we are connected with all beings. So we take refuge in that. And it's not just people in our little Sangha in Chicago. It's not just Chicagoans. It's not just Americans or Christians or white people. How do we see taking refuge in Sangha in the widest sense?

[05:39]

So these are three jewels because they support our practice. They support us in the practice and activity and expression of awakening and relieving suffering and seeing deepest truths. So how do we see taking refuge in Buddha, taking refuge in Dharma, taking refuge in Sangha, as a support, each one of us, but all of us together, for awakening. So sometimes the English word refuge, we take it as meaning sanctuary. That's one meaning of it. But what I'm talking about today is not sanctuary in the sense of total safety. Buddha, is not going to fix everything for us. Dharma and science does not have all the answers. Sangha and community includes all of our problems, all of our questions, all of our difficulties with each other.

[06:44]

But another meaning of sangha is to return home. So we return home to our deepest home of Buddha. We return home to reality, truth. We return home to all of the different communities each one of us represents. We are, all of you, just by being here, are part of the Nyingchen Dragon Zen Gate Sangha community. Sangha is also islands of sanity. How do we find Islands of Sanity, and this includes, you know, other communities that we are part of, cultural communities, historical communities, many different types of gatherings. And each one of us, as we sit here, is a product, through Dependent Co-Arising, of many, many, many beings, old friends, family,

[07:52]

people we work with, old lovers, childhood pets. My assistant, Bessie, is here somewhere. Her tail might appear on the screen at some point. Anyway, so we take refuge, not because that will provide some particular outcome, and not because it'll give us control over the situation of reality, all the situations of life and in the world, but as a support for finding our way to practice in the middle of this. Part of the practice of taking refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha is also to see what it is that we habitually take refuge in. So what is it that we are taking refuge in in our life?

[08:56]

Are we taking refuge in sex? Rock and roll, maybe. We might also be taking refuge in numbness or anger or outrage. We might take refuge in that. And we might take refuge in family or work. Sometimes our worldly refuges are expressions of taking refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. But we can look and see, what is it that we care about? What is it that we really take refuge in? And how do we transform those into modes of taking refuge in Buddha, taking refuge in Dharma, taking refuge in community? So this applies to us personally in terms of the things we take refuge in. It also applies to our society and we need to look at that if we're taking refuge in dharma and reality.

[10:02]

It seems to me that Of course, not always, because many people now are out in the streets speaking out against our systemic racism. Many people have been helping out during the COVID pandemic in lots of ways, supporting each other, helping each other, people who are first responders, people, some people in our sangha who are working in hospitals. But also our society seems to often take refuge aggression and the military and the masters of war that Bob Dylan keeps singing about. So I spoke of this a little bit Monday night, but 53% of the American budget goes to the military, supporting the American empire in various ways.

[11:12]

That's money taken from education, healthcare, housing. So, what do we really take refuge in? as a society? What do we take refuge in ourselves? How do we support, as a wider sense, how do we support values that accord with taking refuge in Buddha and Dharma and Sangha? So Cornel West, who's quoted here, talks about America as a failed social experiment. That might be so, but also there are possibilities. We don't know how and when change will happen. How do we see values? But just to say, the United States has 800 military units abroad, supporting many dictators.

[12:13]

Dr. King, way back in 68, said that our government is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world. This was during Vietnam. I might argue that's still the case. So how do we see taking refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha in the middle of all of these pandemics, these crises that are opportunities to invoke and express positive values at the same time that they are potential catastrophes? And maybe they're both. And how do we see this? And how do we support positive values? So I want to try and apply another basic Buddhist teaching to these situations. And that's the four bodhisattva methods of guidance or the four integrative methods of bodhisattvas. So bodhisattvas are those who express refuge in Buddha, Dharma, Sangha in our world for the sake of all beings.

[13:26]

And so I just want to start a discussion by talking about how these four Bodhisattva methods might be irrelevant. And there are many, many ways of talking about Bodhisattva practice, how to express Buddha, Dharma, Sangha in our world. There's the transcendent practice, there's the 16 precepts, starting with taking refuge in Buddha and Dharma and Sangha. And there are many other ways of talking about Bodhisattva practice, but these four methods are generosity, kind speech, beneficial action, and then cooperation, or sometimes translated as identity action. So Dogen talks about these in one of his Shogogenzo essays, but it goes back, this teaching goes back to India. I want to look a little bit at each one of them and also encourage you all to think about how they might apply in our current situation.

[14:33]

So first of all, just generosity. Well, this practice of social distancing and wearing masks that is recommended now. This is a practice of generosity. We don't wear masks, well, except for these special masks that medical people wear in hospitals. When we go out and wear masks, we're supporting others not to get COVID. We're trying, we're doing this to not spread the virus. So this is an act of generosity. Basically, generosity, there's many forms of generosity. Making donations to support people who are having difficulty with these pandemics.

[15:36]

But also just to see ourselves as not separate. this generosity to see that we are interconnected, that the other is not separate from us. We are the other. I is another, Ambrose said. So how do we support the sense of non-separation? This is generosity. And in the, pandemic of racism that is now being critiqued on the streets of all major American cities. Generosity for white people is not to speak for black people, but to speak to each other. It's not enough to not be racist ourselves.

[16:40]

what's happening this last couple of weeks after the brutal murder of George Floyd and so many other brutal murders of African American people by police. And, you know, other Hispanic people and Native Americans are also victims of this racism. But what's generosity for us as, for those of us who are white, whatever that means, and that's also a construct, but is to educate ourselves about racism. So this is a 400 page book. from slavery to Jim Crow to current mass incarceration form of slavery, and to see how we are all privileged. I don't automatically become afraid when I see policemen out on the street, whereas a black man needs to be on guard. So there's so many ways in which our whole economy was built on the legacy of slavery and racism.

[17:53]

So for white people, generosity is just to educate ourselves about this. Not enough to not be racist ourselves. How do we be anti-racist, which means talking about it together. So I'm saying this now. And this goes against habitual refugees, you know, saying, oh, you know, I'm colorblind. I don't see colors. Well, that's ridiculous. This has been a factor in everything in our society for 400 years. In some of these situations, kind speech, How to talk about these difficulties without name-calling? How can we talk about the brutality of some policemen without, you know, personally attacking them?

[18:54]

How to talk about the cruelty and cluelessness of our current national administration without name-calling. I want to suggest that one form of kind speech is to recognize cultural karma rather than personal karma. If we believe in non-self, is what interconnectedness and what the Buddha Dharma teaches us, then karma is not just personal. Of course, it's personal too, but this is an opportunity for American Buddhism. Most of popular Asian Buddhism talked about karma in terms of personal karma, the karma of personal selves. how we were born and what is our personal karma and personal activity.

[19:57]

But what I want to suggest that part of Kind Speech is to see this in the context of systemic cultural karma, that the brutality of policemen against Black people is part of a systemic cultural legacy for 400 years. We're all affected by that, each one of us, no matter what our situation, because this is the culture of our country and society. So to some kind of speech might be to remember that, to remember that, you know, we might critique some politicians for some of their activities, but it's not, name calling doesn't help. How do we be respectful? So part of the precepts is to be respectful to everyone.

[20:57]

I might suggest that one way of being respectful of some people victimized by cultural trauma, for example, fossil fuel executives and what that's doing to our world, or weapons makers and how they control and mold our policy by through all their lobbying and contributions to Congress and so forth. You know, maybe the way to be respectful to them is, and people supporting cruelty and hatred nationally, you know, maybe some of them should be in jail. That would be the way to be respectful to them. But it's not about them personally. We don't have to call names. This is we're all part of this cultural common karma.

[22:00]

So that's a little bit about time speech. I mean, we can speak truth about cruelty and cluelessness without, you know, man calling. So beneficial actions. Well, That's the third of the four bodhisattva integral guidances. Well, we see so many examples of that now. All the protesters, black and white and, you know, multiracial, who are out on the streets in major cities now. Some people in our sangha have been doing this too. I wish I could. I miss doing civil disobedience. I used to go to Vietnam demonstrations back in the 60s that look in many ways like what's happening now. But what's happening now is even stronger. So all these people who are out on the streets protesting against this systemic, common, racist pandemic are risking their lives because of this COVID.

[23:04]

So I'm concerned about that, and I hope that many young people who are so inspiring will be safe. But also, I appreciate all the people out on the street. They're really inspiring. So a great example was And again, for white people to talk about, not just to not be racist to ourselves, but to talk about the cultural legacy of racism. This is beneficial activity. The fourth one, cooperation. Sometimes it's translated as identity action. to it's not that we're all one, but we are not separate. How do we see all of us? Sangha is about seeing all of us as not separate. And this fourth Bodhisattva guiding suggestion is about funding based on cooperation, collaboration, not aggression and competition, but working together with others.

[24:22]

So we can't ignore the karma of 400 years, but how can we start to see that we're not separate from any so-called others? That they're a part of us and we're a part of them, and we're all inter-impacted by this. So again, there's this 400 year legacy of lynching and redlining and inequitable opportunity and education and housing and so forth. How do we heal this? So beneficial action, the fourth one is about healing this. And I, may it be that all of the people out on the streets in all of the cities

[25:28]

in our country and in many other countries, will be feeling that we can start to face this common cultural karma that affects us all and that there'll be some healing. So in the face of our common karma of cruelty and this virus that now threatens everyone, and the effects of all the people out of work and all of the economic chaos, how do we heal this? And, you know, part of all of this and part of just this pandemic and being basically inside for now three months, something like that, lost count, but anyway, it's tiring.

[26:33]

I think many of us are exhausted in some ways. And many of us are heartbroken seeing the videos of people being attacked by the police brutally. It's heartbreaking. and hearing the numbers of people who are dying from this virus, this is difficult. How do we, in the middle of this, take refuge, return home to Buddha, to Dharma, to Sangha, to face this and start to act from bodhisattva practices such as generosity and kind speech, and beneficial activity and cooperation to see how we are not separate.

[27:34]

So I think we can find many more examples of how those Four Practices and other Bodhisattva Practices might be enacted now. I want to hear from Any of you who wish to speak, to offer suggestions or responses or comments on anything that I've said or anything that I've not said, or anything that's happening, or all the things that could be happening and are not happening. So welcome, everyone. Feel free to comment, respond, ask questions. Thank you all very much. Thank you, Taghi, and let me just jump in as the host to let people know. I know most people have done this before. If you're visible, you can raise your hand, or if you are not visible, if you click on the participants icon,

[28:44]

At the bottom of your screen, you will be brought to a list of participants, and you will see a way that you are able to raise your hand to be called on, and Taigan can call on people as he sees them. At the bottom right, it says raise hand, at least in my system. So any comments, questions, responses, please feel free. So Eve. And then Patrick. Okay. Um, well, I, I have a lot of questions. Um, and I've been thinking about the, the Buddhist phrase, skillful means, and you know, what are skillful means in these times. And, and a lot of, you know, my own reactions right now are colored by working with, with public health professionals, um, and hearing from them. among other things, the consequences of disinvestment in the public sphere and in government and public health for the last three decades, and how that's affected our ability to address inequity.

[30:05]

Because, you know, what's coming out in all the comments, I mean, even before the violence and the murder of George Floyd, um, you know what's coming out in the epidemic because it's like a x-ray that shows up the the the all the faults In our system and all the inequities that were already there, which is one reason why you know the protest the demonstrations um scared me at first because I felt like um And and we'll still have to see what happens. I mean, I I felt like that that and people putting themselves at risk. They're also putting their communities at risk. And I mean, I remember what happened after Martin Luther King died. And I mean, I was in Pittsburgh at the time, but neighborhoods there and in Chicago on the West side never recovered from some of the destruction that happened then.

[31:10]

Of course, last weekend, I was afraid of the same thing. And one of this, I mean, I think there are some differences. I think there hasn't been as much that have visited, you know, destruction that's actually been in black and brown neighborhoods. But, Anyway, I recently became aware that there's an organization, Right to Recovery, that started before the Floyd murder that was addressing the systemic problems that have led to the disproportionate illness in black and brown communities. And it's a broad platform and it's calling for attention to education, attention, to health, broadly speaking, and the right to health care, a whole host of issues that are interconnected.

[32:21]

And so I'm heartened with that and impressed with that. But I guess one thing I still have a question about is that there's still groups and forces in this country that, I mean, like, the people that infiltrated some of the demonstrations to create violence that was to delegitimate them. And there's still all the activity, and not just on the far right, that's squelching voting and trying to prevent more people from voting in the fall. And I guess one of my questions is, what are the skillful means of recognizing, I mean, even if you're not a conspiracy theorist, you know, there are people that are planning things that are not in the interests of most of us.

[33:23]

And what do we do about that? Okay, thank you. I have bunches of responses and I'll try and keep it short, but I, and I was in Pittsburgh too. I'm from Pittsburgh, but we have to check in about that. But I was there when Dr. King was killed. Yeah, so it's so complicated. That's part of the, part of the deal here, that COVID exposed inequalities that go back a long time. And as you say, there was an investment for decades in education and healthcare. Our whole healthcare system is obviously a fraud. I mean, excuse me, but that's just seems to be the reality. And Yeah. So how to fix all of that is not something that's, you know, we don't, we don't know, but change does happen.

[34:25]

We don't know how change happens, but it happens thanks to sometimes suddenly thanks to lots, the work of lots of people, like all the people on the streets now. Um, so, um, uh, you know, the old normal, Some people want to return to normal after the pandemic. That's not going to happen. It can't happen. Normal doesn't mean anything anymore. But this is an opportunity for us to see how all those problems were there. And to see, you know, so the thing about looting, I've said this before, but, you know, Corenda Scott King said that denying health care is violence. There's been long standing looting of African American lives and the Native American lands. And yes, there are, there have been

[35:29]

This isn't conspiracy theory. There's been documented activity by white supremacists. And I don't know if this is happening now, but I know in the 60s, there were government agencies who were infiltrating agent provocateurs to create violence and demonstrations to make it look violent. I don't know if that's happening now. But anyway, how do we look at the whole thing and how do we support? So what we can do is to lobby Congress people. Some of them might listen about all these issues, but to talk about it ourselves and when you can do so safely to go out and demonstrate on the street and talk about it. to not take it for granted and somehow the new quote-unquote normal, the new way of being can hopefully, may it reflect these bodhisattva values. So that's a little bit of my response.

[36:33]

And yeah, it's complicated. So thank you for raising all of that. Patrick Miller, you had a comment or question? Yeah. I'll tell you in first, thank you for today's talk. And then also, okay. Yes, now that's better. Okay, sorry. My computer microphone doesn't work very well. So we'll have to deal with the headset. First, thank you for today's talk. I really enjoyed it. And I also had the chance to listen to the last Monday's uh monday night dharma talk too um and uh one of the things that has really um been difficult to process lately is the um uh realization of how

[37:33]

the realization of the way things actually are versus the way I've experienced them along the lines of white privilege, especially being a white male. And so seeing the demonstrations, and then in particular, the police response to the demonstrations has been very jarring. And I keep playing with the, and on some level, it's enlightening, because I was very unaware. And prior, I'd like to think I was more aware. I've done community development type stuff in other countries, but I've never tied it all together. And, and so a lot of it's been reflection. And Now, moving forward, there's a mindfulness. So I've done a lot of work in El Salvador, and going down there, you have an awareness that, you know,

[38:43]

If something happens, you might not be able to rely on the police, that the police coming into a community, it might cause more problems. And these past demonstrations drives home the fact that here in America, it's the exact same thing, that the police in neighborhoods here automatically cause problems. And so to realize this really jars things and puts a new light on my experience in life to date. And I appreciated your talk today specifically about the Bodhisattva methods, because now moving forward, coming out of this, I can have that mindfulness of how I've gotten to where I am today. and then how I can approach things moving forward.

[39:47]

And it's difficult. I guess the other thing that the demonstrations have shown is just how difficult it is to be and grow and acknowledge people. But being mindful of not only yourself, others as well can make that easier. So thank you. And thank you for those comments. Yes. Yes, this is jarring. This is a wake up call. You know, we might've thought we weren't racist or whatever, but this is, and pointing out that it's not just this country. This is a global karma. There was a, you know, the whole anti-immigrant thing, you know, most of us, are descended from immigrants.

[40:51]

We have some Native American, partly Native American people in our Shonga, but anyway, it's, yeah, it's a wake up call. And lots of people all around the world and all around our country are hearing it. So this is an opportunity. And for us to be talking about it, this is what song is about, that we have a chance to talk together about it. And yes, and just for people who have not heard, we are also having Monday evening talks. Douglas will be talking tomorrow evening. And thanks to Angie, who's on the call now, These talks are appearing on our website fairly promptly. So anyway, these are ways of sharing our sense of things. So other comments, questions, responses.

[41:54]

Yeah, David first, David Weiner. appreciated talking about the four methods because this is the first time I really became aware of that. And so I really appreciate it. One thing I like about Zoom, instead of being at the Zen Center, I could have a pad at my side and I take notes for me learning kinesthetically by writing as well as looking at my notes later on. It's a good boon for me. So thank you for mentioning that. But a couple of things really came up for me. quite quickly while we're talking. The first thing is that I'm in graduate school and I'm reading, and right now, last semester and this semester, I'm reading a lot about feminist theology and a feminist approach called feminist theological anthropology. And I'm very much aware, I went and I counted, there's nine women here in our sangha, nine females.

[43:01]

And this is a big part of it. You know, the very first discrimination was between male and female. And you look at, you know, in Genesis 2, where all of a sudden, a man is first and a woman is second. Yet in Genesis 1, they're both created together. And how our religion plays on that. And of course, that story from Genesis is verified history, right? Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. What happens is for me is I'm reading so much about feminist thought, it's just really opening my mind and seeing how all our social constructs, they're just that, they're social constructs that we create. And therefore, they can be changed. And that's for me, one of the biggest things. So if you ask what people can do, my thing would be read. And if you're male, read something about feminist thought.

[44:03]

to get out of your own box because, you know, part of feminism is that the woman is in the natural realm and men dominate the cultural realm, the intellectual realm. Well, is that true? You know, and that's one of the eye-opening things to take a look at, at least for me. The other thing is what I was struck by, our police, is that when I went to Ireland to visit my son who lives in Dublin, The police aren't called police, they're called guardians of the peace. And they come in with a whole different range of not that I have to attack and maintain order, but how can I create peace? And I actually saw when two policemen were talking with a man who was drunk and how they handled it. And I could see how in America, he would be cuffed and clubbed and put on the ground. And there, they're just talking to him and they're helping him, you know, deal with this situation. So, you know, if we could change attitudes about what does policing mean, and that means not only for the police, but in our own hearts too.

[45:16]

Because we look, we protest, and we vilify the police. And believe me, I vilified them in the past, especially in the 60s, when we called them pigs, you know, off the pigs was the chant. How can we come to them and us ourselves be guardians of the peace, even when demonstrating, even when demonstrating? And that I think is an important thing to take a look at. Like you say, we can't vilify others. We have to take a look, how can I be a guardian of the peace? And so thank you. Yeah, thanks, David. A couple of the points you made I want to just comment on. Yeah, the police should be guardians, supporters, helping people. That's the police mission. And unfortunately, in our country, where everything is militarized, our economy is based on 53% of the national budget is the military.

[46:20]

Police should be guardians, not warriors. And that's what the current protest is focusing on. I think the current protests are touching on lots of things, but that We have this culture spoken of by our current administration of aggression and militarization and the police in armor and with weapons and shooting. Anyway, we've all seen it. But really the police should be guardians. That's the systemic change that needs to happen. The other thing I wanted to just comment on briefly as you were talking about Zoom. And so it's been interesting to me. Some people in our sangha have talked about, you know, it's disembodied. It's not the same as sitting together at the Zendo at Irving Park. And Some, you know, many so-to-say teachers around the country are doing all kinds of things with Zoom, including long, all-day sittings or sessions.

[47:30]

And I don't feel like I want to do that. I think it's not the same. So I want to just recognize that. And at the same time, there's an advantage. We're stuck in these little boxes where Thanks to Zoom. Tyler's here from Canada. Hi. Juan Pablo's here from Argentina. Sandra's here from Indiana. people who couldn't be here. Jenny's here from Minnesota. Ron's here from New York. So when we, we have decided, by the way, I don't know if this has been put outside yet, but we have decided, the board has decided that we will continue not occupying our storefronts through August. So we will continue with Zoom and I'm looking forward to having some special guests

[48:32]

Are we okay? Yeah, so we'll have some special Zoom guest teachers in July and August. But so it's the next thing. And when we do reoccupy our Zendo, we will have a Zoom component so that all of you coming from a distance can also can still hear the talks and respond. So I just wanted to say that about Zoom and yes. So, you know, this whole thing, you know, all of these situations are difficult in so many ways, and yet there are opportunities. They provide us the chance to have a wider assembly, sangha assembly. Anyway, I'm interested if anybody else has suggestions specifically about generosity or kind speech or beneficial action or cooperation and how those might be applied in our current situation.

[49:42]

Mike, I'm sorry, Wade, you have your hands up. I would just say speaking on generosity now is a great time to donate to organizations that are doing work that you support. And I know that's something, a conclusion we can all come to on our own, but I thought I would just state it explicitly. Lots of great organizations doing really good work in relation to these protests and supporting communities. So if you're looking for places to donate, I'd be happy to help you find them. If you have places in mind, I would encourage you to do that. It's a good time to practice DANA. Yes, thank you for that. Other comments? David, oh, Juan Pablo, welcome. Yeah, can you hear me well? Yes, all the way from Argentina, hi.

[50:46]

Hi, hi, hi. It's very cold here. So, well, thank you very much for opening after, when you open, for opening to ourselves the space to be there. It's very, it's beautiful and I'm very grateful for that. So thank you. And I have two points that I was thinking about the Bodhisattva the methods of the Holy Salva and it deals about the limits, you know, I was thinking about the limits of kind speech and I was thinking about how to, because you say something like to respect everyone and I'm thinking, I'm kind of difficult with that, you know, like with, I can respect something, but I will not respect certain things.

[51:53]

And so what do you think about the limits in the methods of the hoysalba? There are situations or certain moments where I cannot be respectful and, or I cannot give a space to everything. And that's one point. And the other point I was thinking about is the, sometimes the legitimacy of violence, and what can we say as Buddhists about when violence is a proper method? There are two points that I want to make. When violence is a proper method, okay. Well, first of all, The thing about respecting and radical respect for all beings, we can make a distinction between the activity of people.

[52:57]

There's body, speech, and mind in Buddhism. We can disrespect the activities and the speech hate speech of certain people. But we don't have to, we can just distinguish their conduct and their activities and their words and hate mongering and so forth. We don't have to respect that. But we can respect the person that Without name-calling particular people who act in cruel and clueless and stupid and hateful ways, we can disrespect their activities. But part of this taking refuge in Buddha is that there's this possibility for everyone.

[53:59]

I think it's possible that some people who have acted in horrible ways can be woken up. So Patrick was talking about not realizing certain things. And yeah, so how do we wake up people? How do we? And it's hard. Some people have very strong ingrained hatred. There are white supremacists in our country. There are people who are filled with hatred. That doesn't mean, but they can change. There's so many examples of this, of people who've reformed. I saw this movie about a Ku Klux Klan leader who became friendly with a black woman and changed. There's the story of the song, Amazing Grace.

[55:04]

written by a ship captain who was involved in the slave trade and then woke up to the effects that he had done, that he was a wretch like me. There's so many examples. So to respect the possibility of individuals waking up, so we don't have to respect or speak positively about their activity. and about the cruelty and about hate speech and so forth. So I want to make that distinction. I don't know if that helps in terms of your question, and I'll call on Fushun in a second. But also, you asked about violence, and I believe in nonviolence as a strategy. And the protesters out on the streets mostly have been extremely nonviolent and peaceful, but also given the karma of looting against African Americans, there are people who are frustrated and some of the protesters, as well as the

[56:13]

provocateurs may have been part of that. I think there is a role for police and for military. I think we do need, you know, in this world, some police and some military, some people need to be held accountable. And sometimes as the last resort, not as the first resort, like our president believes, but as a last resort, we can sometimes violence, some kind of limited violence, might be the freedom. It's very unusual. There are stories even in the Buddhist scripture talking about that. So it's not an absolute. It's just the most useful, skillful means is nonviolence. So that's what I would say in response to her comments. Do you have a follow up on Pablo or is that okay? Who should? So in response to the question about respecting, it seems to me that there are two things.

[57:20]

As Boisafos, we uphold wholesome actions as much as possible. The other is very informative and educational as something that is not wholesome. So we learn as much from what really doesn't work as we do from what seems to work. And there's a story about a Zen master walking with a student and they see two, I don't remember what animals they are, but they're fighting. And the student asked the teacher, What is that? And the teacher says, it's for your benefit. So I've been asking myself the same thing about embracing, but not necessarily upholding what's going on now. And my task is to uphold what is wholesome.

[58:22]

and not to uphold, not to be attached, and to encourage other people to let go of what doesn't work. That's sort of where I would go with that. Thank you. Good, yes. We're all part of the food chain, you know? So I'm... My cat needs to eat meat and so I probably take care of her with animal food anyway. We're all part of that food chain. And we have, you know, when we take antibiotics, we're killing bacteria in our digestive system. That's killing too. So this is a complicated world. But how do we try to uphold Wholesome, that's a good way of putting it.

[59:25]

Wholesome and helpful activity. And not support harmful and unhelpful activity. Thank you. Sandra, you had your hand up. Yeah, I'll just try to be brief because I know we're running past time probably. Um, so I, um, I've had a couple of experiences this past week that kind of, I thought I had some insight that I think I've had before, but suddenly it became more apparent to me. And that is that, um, I've been, um, Spoken to in passing by a few white men like I was out yesterday taking a walk And my encounter was that they were all warning me to be careful and I suddenly realized that you know, it's not i'm i'm not feeling afraid But it's obvious to me that they are afraid they're expressing their own fear and

[60:29]

so I I and I realize that they Probably don't There's no need for them to be afraid um But yet whatever thoughts are in their mind um their uh, their response to what is happening in their environment is to take guard and To be defensive rather than being open and exploring Like we are um Why is this happening? What can we do to? Improve it how they're experiencing it. It seems to me is to kind of shut down and take defense and um be on guard so um I'm thinking, you know, it might be helpful to kind of step back a little bit and not assume that we know what people we may think of as being racist, kind of think about too, where is that racism coming from?

[61:41]

Where is the hatred coming from? And I'm thinking, and part of it is too, it is part of our segregated society and the way that the media and what we see in the news uh in terms of um black on black violence, um Crime in the black community kind of stokes. Um, uh, so Stokes fears, uh the other Or the black community. So I think I think it might be helpful because in a way is singing to the choir, um to focus the other way and and sort of the strife is coming in, um, that the conflict between the races. And so it may be useful to try to open up and see where people are coming from. And I'll just mention briefly that my daughter's father-in-law is a Mexican-American police officer.

[62:48]

And he was on the front lines of a shopping mall nearby that was overrun by looters. And he wrote recently online his experience of that. And part of what he said was that there were 4,000 looters. And I'm thinking that can't possibly be right, but that's definitely how he experienced it. So I think kind of being aware that we don't necessarily know how people are experiencing things, and I'll just stop right there. So thank you very much. Thank you for that, Sandra. So part of taking refuge and seeing what we actually take refuge in is to see our own fear and anger. And that's something that we all have experienced in some way or other, a fear of climate, fear of the pandemic, fear of as white people, I won't speak for anyone else.

[64:03]

I know that when I see a group of young black men walking towards me on the sidewalk, I feel some tension. You lost it, Taigan. Taigan, you disappeared. I think I lost my connection. Can you hear me now? Yeah. I'm muted. I just tried to unmute it. That's weird. I'll unmute you. Okay. I, yeah, so I want to, I'm just going to just point that part of the context of all of this is that people are afraid, people are angry and frustrated. and people who in shopkeepers who have put their life savings into their small businesses are devastated now, first from the COVID and then from looting.

[65:18]

It's terrible. So yes, this is exactly what I mean by respecting everyone, people who may be Teigen, we can't hear you temporarily at least, but I wanted to direct people's attention to the chat box where I have posted a resource and Eve has also posted a list of resources. If you would like to make a financial donation to help businesses and other organizations that have been impacted by the recent events, including protests and looting and presumably COVID as well. Thank you. Thank you, Eshin. I'm having trouble with my internet connection.

[66:21]

Can you hear me now? Hello, can you hear me now? Yes. OK. So yeah, just to finish up, I appreciate what you said, Sandra, and just that It's complicated. And so for us to make quick judgments about people, and that I'm seeing that my internet connection is unstable. Anyway, yeah, this is part of respecting all people respecting, radical respect is to realize that there is real fear and anger and frustration and confusion and misinformation that leads to some people's unwholesome or harmful activity, which is why name calling against anyone, no matter how powerful they are, is not helpful.

[67:22]

How do we encourage positive awareness? other questions or comments or looking to see if anyone has their hand raised on the participant list. Or maybe we're finished. I mean, we're not finished. We can't finish with this topic. This is a long discussion. This is the rest of our lives discussion. But Sangha is about that we can talk about this. and we don't have to agree on everything at all. Can you hear me okay? Yeah. So thank you everyone. Thank you all for coming. Please come again. We'll do our closing dedication, but I want to mention, and we can do that in announcements, but there are many opportunities to join with us by Zoom.

[68:27]

Thank you.

[68:28]

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