Good morning, everybody. So for new people, I'm Taigen Layton, the guiding teacher at Ancient Dragon Zen Gate. I will speak this morning about Suzuki Roshi, our founder in America and the Bodhisattva Precepts. So, In the Soto lineage, founded in Japan by Ehe Dogen, a number of teachers seem to have emphasized later in their careers, the Bodhisattva precepts, the 16 Bodhisattva precepts that were initiated by Ehe Dogen in 13th century. I've talked about this in terms of Dogen himself.

[01:06]

I spoke in July about a couple of times about the Foxkoan, which is a place where we can see Dogen later on in his career, emphasizing ethics and cause and effect and emphasizing the precepts. So in some ways, this is the one issue in Dogen's teaching where he actually changed his viewpoint in significant ways and emphasized ethics and cause and effects later in his teaching. Also my teacher, Tenshin Anderson Roshi, we might say this of, I started studying with him in 1978 when I moved to San Francisco after several years of studying with a Japanese Soto teacher in New York City. And when I first started studying with Tenshin Reb, he was teaching about Dogen and Koans and Abhidharma, which was very useful.

[02:14]

Yet in more recent years, he's emphasized precepts. His book, Being Upright, is on the 16 precepts, is one that I ask all of Ancient Dragon students who are going to take lay ordination and take precepts with me to read. So maybe I should mention now the 16 precepts in our, just briefly, the 16 precepts in Soto Zen. So the first three are taking refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. Then the next three are embracing and sustaining all good, sometimes it's translated or right conduct, or sometimes it says rights and conduct, ritual and conduct. Then the second one is avoiding all evil. The third one is including all beings. embracing and sustaining all beings, which I think is very important in terms of the Bodhisattva precepts, the precepts of all awakening beings.

[03:24]

And then there's ten grave precepts, which sound a little bit like the Ten Commandments, but they're very different. They're not, thou shalt not, they're just guidelines to how to express Buddha in everyday life. So The way we say them, a disciple of Buddha does not kill. Disciple of Buddha does not take what is not given. Disciple of Buddha does not lie. Disciple of Buddha does not misuse sexuality. Disciple of Buddha does not intoxicate mind or body of self and others. Disciple of Buddha does not praise self at the expense of others. Disciple of Buddha does not slander or does not speak of the faults of others. Disciple of Buddha is not possessive of anything. Disciple of Buddha does not harbor ill will, so does not turn anger into hatred, you could say. And then a disciple of Buddha does not disparage the three treasures of Buddha, Dharma, Sangha.

[04:25]

So each one of those 10 is actually a koan in itself, a complicated guideline to how to express Sazen mind or Buddha mind in the world. So as I said, Dogen himself and I think Tenshin also started to emphasize these precepts more later on in their teaching careers. And I would say myself that in my own teaching earlier on in my sanghas in California, I talked more about sutras, koans, dogen, bodhisattva practices. More recently, since I've come to Chicago, I talk more about these precepts and bodhisattva values as well as precepts and applying them to social issues that we face in the world around us, but also how to express our practice in our everyday activities in the world.

[05:33]

So both aspects are important in terms of the Bodhisattva values and Bodhisattva precepts. So this week I attended for two days the Soto Zen Buddhist Association SCBA conference, which happens every two years. I think there were about 125 people who participated, this time online, because of the pandemic, of course. So it was interesting to do this on Zoom, as we're doing everything now. So these are Soto Zen teachers from all around the country. Actually, maybe 15%, 20% of them are online. associate members, as some of you here are. So priests in training who may become teachers. So one of the focuses of this meeting was how to respond to the situation now in our world of

[06:40]

the problem of racism and the issue of police, brutal police murders of black people and the whole issue of racism and how do we respond as clergy, as well as how to respond as clergy during COVID and what is, the current, you know, what is our responsibility? And in terms of bodhisattva values and precepts. So, you know, one of the points is that right now our society doesn't seem to have a moral center. Doesn't seem to have a clear, clear moral values. This is not a matter of politics. This is a matter of how do we see what our values are. So in that context, for us, the Bodhisattva precepts is one clear guideline to how to see Bodhisattva values, see decent values that we might think of in terms of our life,

[08:02]

with the people around us, and in terms of thinking about how to, what is appropriate response in the situation we find ourselves in, in the world, in the pandemic, in the situation of the more widespread exposure of the systemic racism that's been around for 400 years, but now is very apparent in the pandemic of climate chaos, which is very clear now that the fires raging through the West Coast and hurricanes in the Gulf Coast and storms in the Midwest and so forth. So how do we represent, as Buddhists, basic values, a basic moral center. And then how do we apply that in our everyday activities, in our everyday relationships, in the situation we're in, in our lives, in our everyday lives in the world?

[09:10]

So this is the issue. And so I mentioned, Dogen and my teacher, Tenshin Rev Anderson, in terms of emphasizing precepts. And Tenshin, I'm grateful to be attending weekly senior seminars with Tenshin. I used to attend before I moved to Chicago in 2007, and now thanks to Zoom, I'm attending them every week as well. And he mentioned in the last one, something I didn't know, which is that Suzuki Roshi in his last year also talked about bodhisattva precepts. So I hadn't known that. And I consulted David Chadwick, who has done a wonderful job of producing an archive of all of Suzuki Roshi's teachings, so you can find it through kuk.com, David's website.

[10:16]

And David directed me to Suzuki Roshi's talks about precepts in 1971. And so I've printed out several of them, and I've been looking at them, and I wanted to share some of them with you. So a few things to say about that. First, though, Suzuki Roshi was talking to American Zen students 50 years ago, in 1971. Now, whether or not American Zen has developed since then and what development might mean in that sense is a whole other question, but certainly there have been a lot of us Americans who, we Americans, whatever, have practiced a lot since then, for numbers of years. So, you know, how Suzuki Roshi was talking then may be different than how he would talk if he were around today.

[11:26]

At any rate, just to say that. And the other thing is, these are talks from June and July of 1971. And I'm not sure of this, but I believe that Tsukiroshi had already been diagnosed with stomach cancer by then. So these were talks he gave at San Francisco Zen Center, Page Street. And so I'm not sure exactly when the diagnosis was, but it might've been before this. He passed away at the very, very beginning, I think at the first bell of Rohatsu Sesshin. in December 1971. And in these talks, he mentions the 16, but he mostly talks about the first three, taking refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. If he had lived longer, he might have continued and talked more about all 16 of the precepts.

[12:30]

So we don't know. Anyway, OK, so I want to share some from these four talks. So I'm just going to. share some of the things that Tsukiroshi said. The first talk, and I don't know if these are Tsukiroshi's titles or maybe David's or the compiler's afterwards, Precepts as Original Nature. He says some very interesting things. So I'm just going to read some excerpts. The precepts are something which everyone has as his own nature. The precepts were not decided by Buddha. Originally, the precepts were what makes Buddha, Buddha. Because of the precepts, he became Buddha. So the precepts were first and Buddha appeared next. Before Buddha appeared, there were precepts. And before Bodhidharma came to China, there were precepts.

[13:30]

So before anyone comes to this one world, there are precepts. So this is a very strong statement. that the precepts, the Bodhisattva precepts preceded Buddha. This is what Suzuki Roshi says. He says, everyone has the precepts in their true sense. That's a really remarkable statement. So this was Suzuki Roshi's understanding. And he also says in this first talk, which was in June of 1971, it is difficult to accept just one precept, which is the source of all precepts. It is not possible to accept precepts with your mind only.

[14:33]

theoretically. So physical practice should follow. If you come to the point where you should preserve the precepts one by one, then you will see what the true meaning of the precepts is. So he's emphasizing that the precepts are not something that you have to figure out, think about, or they're not intellectual. The precepts are something that we practice physically. It's not something to figure out what they mean. The precepts are something we enact physically with our bodies in practice. So again, he says the precepts were before Buddha. The precepts are what made Buddha, Buddha. It's how Buddha became Buddha. And as in our practice, And this is something Suzuki Roshi emphasizes, and it's something that is very true.

[15:38]

This is not a theoretical practice. This is not something that we study intellectually or abstractly. This is a practice that we enact. This is a practice about zazen, about the practice we just did, physically sitting upright. And then when we get off, get up from our cushion, how do we physically express this practice in the world, in our everyday activity, in our responses to the situation of the world? So this is not theoretical, these 16 precepts. So this is a major point that Suzuki Roshi makes. So let me come back to that first talk, but I want to talk especially about this second talk, July 2nd, 1971. And it's titled Real Precepts are Beyond Words. So again, I'm just gonna give you some excerpts from it.

[16:42]

He says, the way we observe precepts is by practicing zazen, or practicing zen, by extending our practice to our daily life. If you think the meaning of the precepts is just to observe various rules, your understanding is very far away from the true understanding of the real precepts. The first of the 16 precepts we observe is, how can I say it, the one reality which cannot be divided into three or 16. It is the precept of one reality. This is very important. So, In some sense, all the precepts come from the first precept, which is to take refuge in Buddha. Just taking refuge in Buddha, just returning home to Buddha, just sitting upright in whatever way our bodies can sit upright, sitting like Buddha, we return home to Buddha.

[17:47]

This basic question, what is Buddha? What is reality? So all the other precepts are about how do we express Buddha? So in following all of the other precepts, the point is to come back, to feel Buddha, to feel what is Buddha in each of these situations, in each of these questions. What does it mean? to not intoxicate mind or body and self or other? Well, we come back to Buddha. And in all of the other situations, how do we not praise self at the expense of others? We come back to Buddha. So in all of our attempts to find appropriate response to the problems

[18:51]

in our own life and in the world, the question is, what is reality? What is Buddha? And so no matter how we engage in skillful means and trying to take care of our life expression and our appropriate response to all of the difficulties of the world around us in this difficult time, we have to keep coming back to turning within. So I do talk about how do we look at the world around us and respond helpfully. This is one of the main points of the precepts. How do we not cause harm? How do we help? How do we respect all beings? But we have to keep coming back to what is Buddha? We have to keep coming back to zazen, to turning within, to returning home to Buddha. How do we

[19:53]

C, deepen this connection with Buddha. So this is what Suzuki Roshi is talking about here. The one reality which cannot be divided into three or 16, the preceptive one reality. So he also says, just being yourself is the way you can observe the precepts. It's not about trying to become something else. It's about really looking into how is Buddha expressed on your seat. I'm talking about each one of you, Ziggurat, she says, and myself and about water and about stuff. When stuff is really stuff, stuff includes everything. So this isn't just about human beings. This is about everything in the world. How do we see stuff? This is a kind of Buddhist technical term.

[20:58]

How do we see stuff as Buddha? How do we see our connection to stuff? So this is such an important point. How do we see? How do we take refuge in Buddha? and see how this is all Buddha. So some more from this talk. So excuse me for shuffling these papers. Suzuki Roshi also said, Whether your practice is good or bad, it doesn't matter. If you accept your practice as your own, then that practice includes everything. At that time, you have the precepts, which include everything, as the absolute being includes everything. Then he says, something which you understand is already not absolute because your mind limits the real understanding of the absolute. So this is a basic teaching of Buddhism, the limitation of our consciousness.

[22:06]

Of course, our consciousness is wonderful and our, you know, well, we have a Western understanding of consciousness maybe, you know, and what consciousness is, but that's not everything. It's limited. That kind of practice exists, and some people practice this kind of practice very sincerely. To just sit is much better than to see all the Buddhas in the world. Do you understand why? The point is to know what an important practice it is just to be yourself. He says, nothing exists outside of the universe. All that exists is within the universe. So to think that you can pick up a stone is a big delusion. Stone is still stone. You cannot do anything with it. If you understand this point and sit zazen, that is how you receive the precepts. That is the only way to observe perfect precepts.

[23:10]

There is no other way to observe the precepts. Let me read that part again. Nothing exists outside of the universe. All that exists is within the universe. So to think that you can pick up a stone is a big delusion. Stone is still stone. You cannot do anything with it. If you understand this point, that is how you receive the precepts. That is the only way to observe perfect precepts. There's no other way to observe the precepts. So our idea of the precepts and our idea of what we can do is not the precepts. Continuing with Sipu-Ish's talk here. He talks about not criticizing our practice or not criticizing somebody else's practice, just to do your own practice.

[24:16]

Then he says, He's talking about Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha in this talk. He says, the third one of the first division is Sangha. Sangha means to be harmonious. Buddha and the law of the universe are not two. When someone is practicing Zazen in oneness with Buddha and his Dharma, that is harmony. It is more than harmony. There's actually one. He says, we talk about the law of karma. You cannot escape from karma. Nothing can escape from karma. There's always some rule which determines how everything exists. And the rules are the same for Buddha himself. When we say Buddha, Buddha acts with karma, by karma, or for karma. So karma and Buddha are the same. So again, I just want to

[25:17]

little excerpts of what Suzuki Roshi said about the precepts. So he mentions this, he mentions about the 10 precepts, do not kill, do not steal and so forth. Those are 10 precepts, but even though you observe the 10 precepts completely, that is not how you observe a real precepts. To be oneself is the purpose of our practice. That's such an important statement. People come to Zen and think they need to be some special other, I don't know what. People hear the word enlightened and think they have to become some super being or whatever. So let me say it again, to be oneself is the purpose of our practice. So Ganesha says, how to be oneself and how to keep the precepts, Buddhist precepts is our point of practice.

[26:26]

Those are the three indivisible precepts. So there are different kinds of precepts, which I'll get into. Single body precepts is another way of saying it. Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. Precepts are not just rules, they are a direct explanation of our life and Buddha's teaching and Zazen practice. So there's a lot in that talk. So I want to leave time for questions and discussions, but I'll give you a little bit more from Sikulesh's talks about the precepts. In the talk from July 6th, he talks about the three kinds of triple treasure, the three kinds of Buddha, of taking refuge. And these are the manifested three treasures, the maintained three treasures, and the single body three treasures.

[27:34]

In this talk, he talks about the manifested three treasures especially. So in the Manifest of Three Treasures, Tsukuyoshi says, right now we have temples and in the temples we have Buddhas, big or small, bronze or gold or wooden Buddha images. Well, actually now in the pandemic, we don't have temples, we have Zoom. So this is our temple. So those images are Buddhas for us, Sakyong Rinpoche says. And we have many scriptures bound up somewhere, sometimes in the library. We call them Dharma. And Sangha is priests and laypeople. Those are the three treasures which maintain Buddha and Buddhism as a religion. They are called, maintained three treasures. But I want to talk about the manifested three treasures, Sakyong Rinpoche says. They are not different, but the difference between the single-body Three Treasures and the manifested Three Treasures is that Buddhism, which was told by Buddha, is the manifested Three Treasures.

[28:44]

Buddhism, which was told by Buddha, is the manifested Three Treasures. And Buddhism, which exists even before Buddha, is the single-body Three Treasures. After Buddha, you can say that this is Buddha, And this is the teaching which was taught by Buddha or Dharma. And this is Buddha's Sangha, which includes priests, laypeople, and so forth. We can tell by our eye which is Buddha, which is Dharma, and which is Sangha. But with a single body, three treasures, we cannot say this is Dharma, that is Buddha, or this is Sangha. That's the difference. For us, it is very important to figure out the difference between Buddhism, which was told by Buddha, and Buddhism, which actually exists, whether Buddha came out on this road or not. He goes on and he talks about emptiness. This is interesting. And I think he's talking here about the single body, three treasures.

[29:48]

If you think you can figure out what emptiness is, that is not emptiness. It is something, some idea of something. How you can tell what emptiness is, is to have a full understanding of mountains, or rivers, or each one of us, or what a stone is, or what a cat is, what a dog is. When you actually know what a dog is and what a cat is, you will know yourself. Only when you know yourself will you fully understand what a mountain, a dog, or a cat is. And you will understand that a cat is not just a cat. A cat is you too. You are a cat. At the same time, you are a dog. And if you think it is ridiculous for you to be a dog, then that is usual understanding. It is not single body truth. That is why we must actually have practice. Unless we have practice, we cannot reach this core of the teaching. Only when we can be satisfied with ourselves and with what we have and how we are, will we have complete freedom from everything.

[31:18]

That is how we have complete renunciation. A completely qualified Buddha, just because They need a little bit more, cannot be a Buddha. How silly we are if we really know ourselves. How silly we are if we really know ourselves. This is the point we did not notice. So he's talking about taking refuge in Buddha here. Buddha's enlightenment was just to be himself. And when he became himself, he found everyone was a Buddha and everything was Buddha. When he just knew who he was, then everyone was Buddha. Everyone is Buddha. That is how he attained enlightenment. And his teaching is actually to let everyone know we cannot be a Buddha. So his teaching is about our human nature.

[32:21]

That is why we say, If you study Buddhism, you will be a good human being. And when you know your bad points, you also know you were originally Buddha. Just the same thing. At least if you listen to his teaching, you will know you have suffering as a human being. And that is how you can be free from suffering. The same teaching will work in two ways. But actually he was talking about himself as a person who was born at a certain time at a certain place. If so, What is Buddhism? Where is Buddhism? Buddhism is each one's nature, each one's own nature. In this sense, each one's own nature is called Buddha nature, because Buddhism is about how a Buddha loses himself and how a Buddha stays himself. So it is all about each one of us. There is no need to recite sutras. in the true sense, but it will help anyway. You should pay homage to yourself, which means to pay homage to Buddha and to the Dharma.

[33:22]

That's the structure of Buddhism. And just a little bit from the last talk, and then we can have some discussion and questions. And I'm guessing that you probably have some questions. And I'm guessing that I won't have good answers to all your questions, and that's okay. So he talks about, in the last talk, he talked about why it's necessary to accept perception. He talks about the three kinds of triple treasures, the single body, triple treasure, And then the, which is, he says, to accept things as it is. We do not try to think about things just with our minds, but before we think, we accept things. Then he talks about the manifested three treasures, which are the three treasures which were realized by the Buddha.

[34:26]

When Buddha found out the truth, he himself became Buddha. This is the manifested three treasures. Just a few other things here. And then he mentions the maintained Buddha triple treasure. So I'm just gonna, just a few bits from this. It is necessary to remain very common. In order to remain very common and usual, you accept the precepts. So the precepts aren't about becoming special or some special kind of Buddha being or whatever. It's about being yourself. The Three Treasures, after all, are about yourselves and about your practice, the pure practice of zazen," he said. Maybe that's enough. So again, these are a little bit of Suzuki Roshi's teachings about

[35:36]

Well, I'll tell one story, if I can find it. Yeah, I'll tell one story in closing. And this is a story about a great teacher who was one of Suzuki Roshi's teachers. And this is a story about this teacher's name, Oka Sota. And he was one of, he wrote about the precepts and he was a very important teacher for our lineage of Suzuki Roshi and for, for Suzuki Roshi and for, Soto Zen and he was in the beginning of the 20th century and a lot of important 20th century Soto teachers studied with him. But this is a story about Oka Sotan when he was just a young boy.

[36:47]

And this is a story about Oka Sotan. in the precepts. So I'll just read it. When Okasotan Roshi was a young boy, his teacher, Token Roshi, told him to buy some tofu. He went to the store. On the way, he saw a picture advertising an acrobatic theater. While he was standing, looking at the various pictures in front of the building, he heard the bell of his own temple. It was the signal for mealtime. He was supposed to come back to the temple with the tofu and finish cooking it before mealtime, but he had been looking at the picture for such a long time without knowing what time it was. Hearing the bell, he noticed what his duty was. He dashed into the store. Give me tofu, he said. As soon as the old man gave it to him, he dashed back. But on the way back, he noticed that he had left his hat in the store. So he ran back again. Give me, give me. And the old woman at the store said, what? Give me. He meant his hat. But his mind was so busy that the word hat didn't come out.

[37:53]

Give me, give me. What, what, what? And at last he could say, my hat. Oh, your hat is on your head. What's the matter with you? And again, he went back to his temple with his hat. That's the story. Precepts are something like his hat, Sukhiroshi says. The precepts are always on your head. Because he wanted to say hat or precepts, it didn't work. If he always has his hat, then there is no need to think about it. That is actually how we should keep the precepts, Sukhiroshi says. So we put emphasis on actual practices or zazen, how to be concentrated on what we do, moment after moment. During Sashi and I talked about Shikantasa, I feel I haven't met you for such a long time. Most of you are sitting for the five days, but I feel I am seeing some of you for the first time. But actually I was making our practice, what Shikantasa is clear. In short, Shikantasa is to live each moment.

[38:54]

Shikantasa is how we are just sitting, is how we live in each moment. And then later in the talk, Suzuki Roshi talks more about Okasotan. He says, the most important thing is this practice of sincerity. You may laugh at what Okasotan Roshi did when he was a boy, but he was a good priest. Even though he was so small, he was very good. He had to be scolded by his master when he came back to his temple, you know. They had to wait maybe another 30 minutes before they ate, so he had to be scolded. But even though he was scolded, he was a good boy. There is no question about that point. You cannot say he wasn't observing the precepts. He faithfully observed the precepts. He always kept his hat on his head.

[39:58]

This time he forgot about his hat, that's all. So that's a story about Okasotan and the priests. Okay. Comments, questions, responses, feel free. If you, if I can call on you, if you raise your hand, if you, um, are not visible, you can raise your hand in the participants box and maybe David, you can help me call on people there. So who has a question or comment or response? Joanne, hi. Unmuted. Okay, there we go. So that was a lot. Yes, it was. It was all about taking refuge in Buddha. I'm trying to digest, but what came for me was how amazing some of these teachings are and some of the teachers. And I would like to explore more and knowing about the website that you mentioned.

[41:07]

And I did actually listen to your interview by the owner of the website that you mentioned, Kuk. Cuke.com. David Chadwick, who's done a wonderful job. C-U-K-E.com. C-U-K-E.com. And that goes back to David Chadwick's wonderful biography of Suzuki Roshi called Crooked Cucumber. I recommend it. Ah, well, so, um, inspiration for me. Thank you. You're welcome. Other questions, comments, responses, anything? Again, I see Brian's hand up. Brian, hello. Hello. This business of just be yourself and then living the precepts will be natural.

[42:12]

One of the things that came to mind was the advisors to Donald Trump who are sometimes troubled by what he says and other advisors who say to them, don't worry, let Trump be Trump. And that quote that's often used, just be yourself is the worst advice you can give to some people. And so the question for me is, what does it mean to be oneself in a way that naturally keeps the precepts. In Christianity, Saint Augustine said in a sermon, love and then do what you will, because out of love only good comes. But how is this understood in Zen? Well, Tsukiroshi says you have to practice zazen. You need to practice. You need to sit and take refuge in Buddha. So when you take refuge in Buddha, be yourself. So this is about how we practice. So it's important to keep coming back to turning within, taking refuge in Buddha.

[43:19]

It doesn't mean become Buddha. It doesn't mean look at some special being. It means be yourself, but keep, you know, I don't know what would happen if Donald Trump, to mention a name that you mentioned, if he sat Zazen every day, or if he did Sashim. I don't think he, I don't know, from what I understand from hearing all this stuff about this person, he's not so self-reflective anyway. You have to keep turning within. This is the point of the first precept. All 16, all 16 are important. Each one of the 16 is important. Each one of the 16 is a huge koan for expressing what it means to be yourself. So what it means to be yourself is practice. This is not some idea of being yourself. It's about how do we breathe and sit upright and face the wall and turn within

[44:29]

and allow Buddha to be yourself, which is just yourself. So that's what Tsukiroshi is talking about. So that's one way to respond to your question. Did I see Paul's hand up? Sengyu, yes. There we are. Well, I remember one thing from that time was that he said, when a teacher is dying, he teaches best. Yes. He had sent me to Japan by that time, but I remember hearing that refrain, and I'm sorry that I missed that period. It's, I'm not sure we're supposed to say it, but anyway, the idea is if you're being yourself, you're being yourself as a, your true self, and your true self is that you are not separate from Donald Trump or from anybody else.

[45:43]

The empathy, that there's an empathy that runs between you and all things. And I think some people like Donald Trump have difficulty finding that empathy with other people. So for us, it's being our true self, but we don't see ourselves as separate. Anyway, it's not so easy to do, and I certainly fail at it constantly, but I always keep it in mind. Thank you, Paul. Yes, Tsukuroshi talks about stuff. and how we're not separate from stuff. And he talks about cats and dogs and mountains as us, and us as cats. Yeah, he puts it so beautifully. I'm just flabbergasted every time he turns something philosophical and then runs it into cats and dogs. It's quite wonderful. Yeah, and he makes the point, it's not philosophical, it's practical, it's in your body, it's not theoretical.

[46:47]

It's so hard for us. I think maybe it's harder for the Western mind, I don't know, Western or Japanese, anyway. It's physical, it's practical, it's how do we express this in our bodies, in our mountain bodies and cat bodies and dog bodies and with stuff. So yes, and the thing you said about that, Tsukiroshi said, teachers teach best when they're dying. And it's interesting that when he was dying, he came back to the Bodhisattva precepts. Other comments, questions, responses, please. Again, I see David Weiner's hand and then Eileen's hand. Okay. Yeah, David, go ahead, if you could, please. One quick question. I had trouble with my audio. The website is kuke.com? Yes, that's it. Thank you. And then I wasn't going to say anything, but in response to what Paul said just now, I think Japanese society is so different from Western society.

[48:02]

We're the ones of individuals. And it's our individual being that's important. And from my experience of having lived in Japan, it's always about relationships. They always say ningen kankei, human relations. And so there's a tendency to take a look to be outside yourself and to be in relationship with other people is what's important. And I think that's maybe part of the problem that we in the West have, because we're thinking so much about ourselves rather than ourselves in relationship. It's just a thought. Yes, thank you, David. And that relates to the third of the Triple Treasure Sangha, that we are in relationship with various sanghas. So thank you. Eileen. I say this carefully. Uh, this whole, I mean, I just almost fell off my couch.

[49:03]

Precepts came first, then Buddha. And I don't, I don't, that is such a sort of simple, I can't paraphrase that. I, I think that there's a, how do we respond to racism? How do we respond to all of this lack of communication really, right? All this discordance between human beings and a lack of attention to reality and, um, And everyone thinking they know the answer. Everyone's got their little thing, you know? And I think the answer is sort of, because I know everything, I think the answer kind of lies right there. And I'm remembering years ago, a friend, oh, I was taking, frankly, a hiatus from psychotherapy. I just had enough for a while. And I thought that that was actually a healthy thing to do. And she had just gotten therapy. She'd been a long time. She was a serious Tibetan practitioner for many, many years and some other things.

[50:04]

And just furious at me that, no, psychotherapy is the answer, psychotherapy is the answer. I said, no, it's not right for me now. I get it, it's good stuff. It all came, and I remember thinking, it all comes from the same place. It's all these different philosophies, different things, and they're all, addressing the same thing in a different way, in a different language, a different cultural language, and the knowledge came first, the reality came first, and then all of these things are trying to figure it out. I happen to think Buddhism does a really good job, a better job than most, because of things like that, precepts came first in Buddha. So it really through me, and I want to think about that a lot more. Thank you. Yes, good. Thank you. Yeah, that's wonderful. And part of the point is that Buddhism does not have the answers.

[51:14]

Buddhism has the questions, maybe. And I don't even know if Buddhism has the right questions, but Buddhism has questions that foment more questions. So that's what it means that before Buddha was the precepts. Taking refuge in Buddha is to turn towards we're willing to listen to everybody. And there's not one right answer because the world is alive because there's dogs and cats and mountains. And taking refuge in Buddha means, you know, I mean, Suki Roshi is Suki Roshi. Suki Roshi is a mountain. Dogen is a mountain. You know, the Buddha was a mountain, but he was also a dog and a cat. And so we turn to the precepts as a way of seeing that reality is changing and that reality doesn't change.

[52:20]

And so, yeah, okay, how do we use these tools, these perspectives to not get caught by some particular answer, some particular strategy? How do we help find some moral center, some value, with which to respond to all the pandemics, all the problems in our world now. Not that we have the answers how to fix them, but that we can respond. We can try and be helpful and we can listen to all the suffering of, you know, Black people who are under attack and have been under attack for 400 years, but now we see it more clearly. But lots of other people too, who are lots of other beings. The mountains and streams are under attack. The forests are under attack. How do we listen and then respond helpfully when we think we see something to be helpful with?

[53:27]

I don't have the answers. Tsukiroshi doesn't have the answers, but Tsukiroshi points us to something. So, to think we have the answer, or that there is one answer, or that there is one reality, gets in the way. It's about, you know, just feeling it in our body. I don't know, I don't have the answer. But if some of you have, maybe somebody here has the answer, and if you do, please let us know. Or if you have a good question, that's OK too. So other comments or questions or responses? Yes, Juan Pablo. Hi. Thank you so much for the talk and for sharing the thinking of Suzuki Roshi. There's a lot of things. I think they're philosophically talking. And one thing that I was thinking

[54:31]

for him or for, you think for Buddhism, the precepts are part of reality, like it's the way the universe is structured or something like that, because sometimes we think ethics or precepts are, or attitude towards the world. But I was thinking that maybe precepts are inscribed in the very structure of the world. So what do you think about that? Yeah, that seems to be what Tsukiroshi is saying at one point, that basic ethical values are more fundamental than our ideas about reality. I think that's worth trying on. I think that's what Sugiroshi says at one point. And then how do we apply that to sharing decent moral values in our society that really needs it?

[55:46]

And it's not about some particular religion or some particular political party or any of that. or ideology, it's not about ideology, it's about how do we be kind, as the Dalai Lama says? How are ways, what are the ways to be caring? And how do we express that and share that in the world and encourage that? And the other thing I was thinking is that beautiful story of the hat. And it's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. And it relates to me to a koan that says, ordinary mind is the Tao. It's so ordinary that he cannot see it, no? Yes, yeah. It's normal. It's like an antidote to a righteousness attitude, you know? I think something like that.

[56:48]

Yeah, it's always right here. Buddha is not somewhere else. The precepts are not somewhere else. Yeah. It's not that we have to... What does Mary Oliver say? You don't have to crawl barefoot through the desert, 40 miles on your knees. It's just, yeah, it's always right here. So that's why we need to practice. Fuxin. You're muted, I think. There are a lot of little icons and sometimes I don't know which one to press. Okay. So I feel very cautious around the words morality and values. Okay. Because it's so easy to get tied up with what morality means and what values mean

[57:58]

and we become almost immediately dualistic. And I remember from the Zen Mind Beginner's Mind, Suzuki Roshi said something like, if you become dualistic, you'll lose all precepts. So when we use this word morality, or ethics, or values, You know, again, the stress on Zazen and realizing that we're not disconnected. So we can't make choices like that. We do express ourselves in this way and that way. but to make choices in terms of a moral structure or a value structure or an ethical structure, it's very, very dangerous. So I just like us to consider that. Yeah, good point.

[59:01]

I think our tendency maybe in this country, or maybe it's a Western thing, or I don't know if it's a Judeo-Christian thing, or I don't know what, but anyway, if one sets up some code of moral, some moral structure, it's like, that's not what the Buddhist precepts are. And that's the, that's part of the, part of what Sukhya Roshi is trying to say. If we set up some moral code and try and impose it on others, that's created so many problems. If we think we have the right moral code and you have to follow that, that's the opposite of what I'm trying to talk about, or what Suzuki Roshi is trying to talk about. So the Bodhisattva precepts is not some moral code that you have to follow. They're questions. They're suggestions or maybe guidelines, but they're not There are not some rules. In some of those talks, I didn't read this part, but he talks about rules and how it's not about following rules in some strict way.

[60:09]

So yeah, that's a very important point. So thank you for that. He also says there must also be rules. He says that. There have to be some rules. But then how do we see them? So the rules are not like moral rules. They're just like the form. So like, I don't know if every, if, so we just try to establish a, I don't know if I want to use the word rule, but a kind of guideline for how to do zum, zazen here so that when you first appear on the screen or enter into, some people are not visible, but when you first appear to bow to the screen, this is like entering the zendo, in our old zendo. And then during zazen, not during dharma talk, to not face directly towards the screen, unless you're the host or a teacher, but just to face to the side or away from the screen or maybe three quarters.

[61:14]

We've just started talking about that last couple of weeks. So I'll just mention that. So this is, you could say that's a rule, but these are just ritual ways of harmonizing. This is about Sangha. It's not about some moral rule. It's not like you're bad if you don't do that. It's just, how do we harmonize together? So that's the kind of rule that we have to follow. But thank you for that. This is an important point. Maybe we have time for one more comment. Paul. I think the rules are something that's very difficult for us to understand because we have this idea that the rules are right and wrong. that the rules of Zen training are just guideposts to judge yourself by. It's more like the hoop on a basketball court. If you throw the ball and it doesn't go in the hoop, it doesn't mean that you're bad, it just means that you haven't practiced enough.

[62:22]

And then you say, oh, I need to practice more in that department. If you don't come when the bell rings, you say, oh, I guess I'm feeling kind of lazy. You learn something about yourself by the rules that give you a signpost to learn something about yourself. It's not something that you can be bad at or make a mistake at or even be immoral about. It's just a way of learning about ourselves. Without many rules, you don't learn about yourself because you don't bump into anything. It's just, you're in the void. So rules are important, but not from a moralistic point of view, not from a judgmental point of view. Thank you, Paul. And a basic point, when I'm talking about values or morals or a moral center, I'm not talking about, we're not, from a Buddhist point of view, to put it that way, We're not talking about good or bad. We're not talking about right or wrong. The assessment is what is helpful and what is harmful.

[63:25]

So to do what is helpful, to do what is harmful. It's not right or wrong. It's not good or bad. That's the key point. Thank you. So Joanne, last point, last point. Well, I keep thinking about Mother Nature and the principles of nature and how, you know, we've been talking about interconnection a lot today, in my opinion, and we have the desire to know. We always have the desire to know, but can we really know? And does it matter when we know? We place so much importance on our abilities and our intelligence, and yet what we're hearing from Suzuki Roshi is just get back on the cushion and be yourself. There's, my concern is there's some arrogance and always wanting to know, to know, to know, to explain things, to intellectualize about things.

[64:33]

And I love the, just go back to the cushion and be who you are, be a human being, be a human being and learn what it is to be a human being that fits in with the natural cycles of life and the flow of energy of life. And to be honoring that and to be aware of that and to appreciate that. That's all I have to say. Thank you. Very well said. And that's a whole Dharma talk. I've given talks on that and the whole idea of knowing and understanding. We have a particular understanding, maybe from Western culture, of what understanding is. But that's part of what Tsukiroshi and Dogen and a lot of Zen is about undercutting our usual understanding of understanding. So it's not theoretical, it's not linear, it's not, there's a logic of awakeness that's not about, it's like, what is the understanding of mountains and trees?

[65:51]

What is the understanding of stuff? What is consciousness that is not just the consciousness of subject, verb, object? And anyway, there's a whole, you know, I've given whole Dharma talks about this, but yeah, when we're sitting, there's the physical understanding in our knees or in our shoulders or in our stomach. And that's, so anyway, thank you for that, Joanne. So thank you all very much. Thank you to Suzuki Roshi for helping us with the precepts and so we can have our closing chant. Thank you, Dave.

[66:34]

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