Good evening, everyone. Welcome. Tonight, I'm going to dialogue with our Sado teacher Paul Disko. Thank you, Paul Disko from Berkeley. And we're going to talk about an old Zen story, an old Zen koan. So I'll start off by reading it, and then call on Paul to start the discussion. So this is, this version of the story is from the Mumonkan, the, the gateless area, the gateless gate, case 44. Master Shishuang said, atop a hundred foot pole, how do you step forward? Another ancient worthy said, one who sits atop a hundred foot pole may have gained initiation, but this is not yet reality.

[01:00]

Atop a hundred foot pole, one should step forward to manifest the whole body throughout the universe. So, Zenkyu, would you take the first step off the hundred foot pole for us? You're muted, so you'll need to dismute. Gladly, I would like to, I'm very happy to be here with you folks. The Sando Kai that we chanted just now always, always touches me. It's such a profound piece of work. If we could, if we, if we could even embrace a small fraction of it, we would be, we would be greatly blessed. But tonight, I want, and only when I get asked, what do I want to talk, what do I want to talk about? So I, I just sort of, the first thing that came to my head was, was the hundred foot pole, because I had a personal experience with it.

[02:07]

And I felt something that I would like to share with you all. But I want to go back to the Sando Kai for a little bit. And there's so much packed into that, into that sutra, into that teaching, that is hard. I mean, each, each sentence is a, is a lifelong study. And each, it's, it's, there's, it's just, it is so power packed, it's so filled with, with things. And, and how to nibble at it, and how to digest it, and how to, how to come to terms with it, how to enter it, how to even, even be able to carry it. To grasp it, find a handle to grasp it and carry it down the road is extremely difficult. And I realized that, that, that many people, many teachers have many different ways of suggesting of how to do that.

[03:17]

So, as most of you know, by this time, I'd spent a lot of time in Japan. I'd spent a lot of time in Japan in fairly intense circumstances. And I spent a lot of time there quite happily. I was not, many, many people that go there are freaked out by how weird it is. And, and, and, and, and anyway, I, I, I felt like I'd gone home. I felt very comfortable there. And very, very, very much at peace there because, because it seemed, it seemed, it seemed so familiar. But coming back to the States, it was sort of a rude shock because we see things so differently. People in this country see things so differently. And anyway, there's many different ways of talking about that difference.

[04:24]

But the one that I use is, is, is, it's like, it's like the two cultures are standing on the rim of the glass. And, and the Asian culture is looking in to the center. So it's, it's focused, it's concave, it's focused like a lens. It's deep, but it's, but it's, but it's narrow, narrows to a point. And, and our, our Western culture teaches us to look out broad, see all the possible, check the horizon, take in all the different pieces. But of course, we can only look so deep, we can't see so far because our, our energy is spread so far, so wide. So, so there's not, there's not the one that's better than the other. And, and the two, of course, complement each other quite nicely. But, but it leads us to study Buddhism in very different ways. Some people talk about the difference of being a, an intellectual culture, or a head culture, or the body culture, or a physical culture.

[05:32]

And I think that's also a very good analogy about, we tend to want to think about things, we want to read books about things, we want to, we want to try to parse the meaning of Baba Wawa. And see if we can't come to some understanding where, where the, where in Asia it's much more of, do what you're told and don't think too much. It's, they both, they both have some difficulties. Anyway, my experience, my experience was with the, with the 100 foot pole was multifaceted. But, I, my, my understanding of it is that, that reaching the top of the pole is, is, it's a 100 foot pole, it's not an easy, it's not an easy climb.

[06:42]

There's a lot of, there's a lot of practice, practice, practice, practice. You know, it's harder than getting to Carnegie Hall. You have to practice, practice, practice. And, and then once you get to the top of the 100 foot pole, what, what, what happens? Anyway, I had an experience in my shuso ceremony at Tassajara that, that, and I know some of you have seen a shuso ceremony, some of you haven't, but it's basically where the head teacher of that, of that training period is put on the hot seat and everybody tries to knock him off by throwing verbal, verbal questions at him, at them, whoever they may be. In Japan, of course, it's done, it's all scripted, the questions are all pre, pre-digested.

[07:49]

But here in America, and especially in a place like Tassajara, people take the challenge pretty seriously and they want to see if they can't unseat you with the dharma combat. And, um, I realized that, that it was okay. I could step off into that void of not knowing what the answers were, or knowing what the answers were, or not, anyway, I could step off into that void and just float, float on the surface of the dharmakaya, and that everything would be perfect. I didn't, there was nothing to worry about. And, and failure or success was of no, no, of no consequence. And that, um, it was just perfect, it was perfect just as it was. Now that was, that was, that was a, you know, a momentary experience when I, when I draw on periodically, but, um, it was, it was my understanding of the hundred, of the hundred foot pole.

[08:58]

But, now that, now that, now that, um, I am attempting to, to be a teacher, and trying to talk about, talk about Buddhism, rather than do about Buddhism, which I did for so many years, I'm, I'm questioning how to talk about this subject, how to talk about the Sandokai from neither an east or a west point of view. And the two, the two were considerably different, and their meanings are considerably different. Um, Suzuki Roshi was, was quite a wonderful teacher, he was a unique teacher in that he did not have, he did not have a strong presence, a strong, he had a strong presence, but he did not have a strong, um, what would you call it? He was neither male nor female, he was neither, he was neither liberal nor conservative, he was neither, he was, he was neither energetic nor lazy.

[10:07]

He was, anyway, he considered himself soft. But to be a good teacher, you had to be stricter, and you had to, you had to, um, kick a little ass to get people to get out of their, out of their, out of their tracks. Which is the usual, usually the way it's done, I mean, that's, that's sort of traditional teaching, both, especially in Japan, and in this country, too. And so he brought this teacher, he invited this teacher from Eheji, he was the ino at Eheji, which is sort of the disciplinary, it's like the dean of students at Eheji. And he, and he was also the champion sumo wrestler, and he was a man of his, I don't know, 50s, 60s, God knows how old he was. But he was not a beginner, for sure. And he had, he had a lot of presence, and he, he, he was very sure of his understanding of Dogen Zenji.

[11:14]

And, and so, a case came up that typified this, this, this East-West problem. Down, at that, at that time at Tassahara, um, uh, the macrobiotics had gained control of the kitchen. I don't know how many of you remember macrobiotics, but they sort of come and gone. But anyway, it was hot in the New Age world in the 60s. And the, the head chef there was, what was his name now, I forget. But anyway, he was, he was, he was really into it. I mean, he was a master of it. And he, he was, um, uh, and he was, he was good at it. It wasn't, you know, there's, there's, I mean, there's, it's one thing to have an idealistic view of what to eat. But another, in other words, but it's also something else to be able to cook it well. But he was good at it. It was good. And, and at that time, it was called Zen macrobiotics for some strange reason.

[12:22]

But I later, I took it as faith at the time because I was a beginner. But later I thought, what the hell, that happened. But anyway, there was nothing especially Zen about it whatsoever. But anyway, um, the point being that, that at that time we were, most of us were in our 20s, 30s at the most. And we were young and vigorous and high energy and brown rice and lentils and one egg every other day. Um, and no cheese, uh, was a hardship. And myself, I went from a diet of, you know, I mean, I went from 180 pounds to 145 pounds in a six month period. But I didn't, I didn't, my body couldn't digest, didn't know how to metabolize it. I came back up to about 160 and stayed there for most of my Buddhist career there at Tassajara.

[13:23]

But, um, at first it just, I just, I couldn't, I couldn't do it. But needless to say, we were Americans and not beyond a little mischief. And we would sneak into the kitchen in the middle of the night and steal food. And this created a stir in the community. And especially some of us bad boys were sort of singled out as being the worst offenders. But, but it was not, it was not uncommon. And the, the chef, the head cook at that time was a man named Ed Brown, who you may be familiar with from his bread book. He wrote a book about bread baking. And he's also a teacher still now and makes the circus among various different groups. Anyway, Ed was, Ed would sit on the kitchen, on the, on the prep table in the middle of the kitchen. And full lotus with two knives in each hand to protect the food. But he wouldn't do it every night, but he did do it some nights. Anyway, so we went to, we went to, at that time, Suzuki Roshi was back in San Francisco.

[14:28]

And at that time we went to the teacher who was there was Tatsugami Roshi from Eheji. And we explained the situation. He spoke very little English. One of the, one of the students, Dan Welch, had spent a year in a Rinzai temple in Japan when he was like 19 or something. And spoke some Japanese. He would translate, explain the problem to him. And he said, Tatsugami said, take, take the locks off your mind and put them on the door. Which, when I heard that, I thought, wow, that is, that is, that is so, so wonderful. So brilliant. Because we, in the West, the Western way is to put the locks on your mind. Morality. Be a good person. Don't, don't, don't, don't sin. And then, but then sin and temptation is everywhere. I mean, just, you know, fast cars and, and, and sexual, sexual innuendo and, and vast amounts of food and money.

[15:33]

I mean, we're just, we surround ourselves with temptation. And then, and then tell ourselves, but don't touch it, don't sin. So I said, that's, that's the Western way. But the Japanese way is, just lock it up. Make, don't, don't, don't, don't tempt people with anything. Make it, make it so taboo that nobody would ever think of doing it. And that's the way Japan is. There's no, there's, [...] there's a correct way to do everything and nobody would think of violating it. And, but their, but their minds are left free. And that's why you have all this fantasy stuff like manga and stuff like that. They have a very strong fantasy life, but a very rigid, very rigid physical life. Anyway, so I, I, I thought that was brilliant. Take the locks off your mind. I thought that was like really, really, really profound teaching. And, and I held that thought for, for, for a long time, many years, like maybe 20, 30 years.

[16:38]

And then talking to my teacher, Tenjin Anderson, about it. Because I've been trying, I've been discussing with him this East-West dialogue. And, and he pointed out, well, how did that work out for Tatsugami? Well, it didn't work out for him at all because he was, he was, he was here in America. And we gave him a, a, a Jisha, an attendant, who was this woman who had more sex appeal than any woman had a right to have. And she went about seducing him and totally turning his world upside down. And because he didn't have the protection of the, of the Japanese system, he was in America where there are no rules. And so that was, so, so Tenjin Roshi pointed that out to me. How did that, that didn't work for him? Because it only works, it only works in Japan to take the locks, put the locks on the door and take them off your mind.

[17:41]

So that set me on this quest to think about, even my quest of how to deal with this East-West, East-West understanding. And I'm talking a lot, maybe I'll give you time to get a chance to talk, to enter in here. But maybe that's enough for now. I have a few more little things to say that I'd like to share with you all. But maybe give Tai a chance to offer something. Well, thank you, Paul. So, thank you, Paul. As an old friend, we connected at Tassahara when I was his Jisha. And, well, you know, I don't know how to say this, but I'll just say it. You know, I tend to be just easygoing as a teacher. I'm not strict particularly. Occasionally I'll be strict with someone when they really need it.

[18:44]

But, you know, Zengu is here from Berkeley as our Seido, our visiting teacher, extended visiting teacher. Oakland, please. Oakland, oh, I'm so sorry. That's a major difference. Yeah, Oakland. I wasn't sure, because at one point you lived, I think, up there. But anyway. I couldn't resist. Thank you. Sorry. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And, you know, it's, and really Zengu was here because I brought him, I wanted him to come to Chicago the same way Tatsugami Roshi came from Japan to California. So, for me, Zengu was our Tatsugami Roshi. Not that anyone should seduce him or anything. Of course you can't because he's up over in Oakland. But, you know, he has a kind of stricter view of what Zen is. And I think he's right, but it's not my style particularly.

[19:47]

So I appreciate Zengu's perspective. And all of this, you know, what does this have to do with the 100-foot pole? Well, the 100-foot pole, as Paul mentioned, you know, it takes a lot of work to climb a 100-foot pole. It takes a lot of practice to end up being Shiseo Itasahara. It takes a practice period of really working. And, you know, people back then and at Zen Center when I was there in the 80s, you know, it's tough sitting all day. And I really regret that. You know, I love Zoom. It's wonderful because we have people here from, well, Paul's from here, from Oakland. And I see that Deborah's here from Pittsburgh. And Ken is here from Indiana. And maybe there's some other distant people.

[20:50]

Oh, Ko's here from Ohio. And Doug is here from Kankakee. Or are you still up in Minnesota, Doug? I can't hear you. But he's up north. Yeah, he's up north. So anyway, we have this wonderful opportunity to see each other even though we're spread out. But there's the intensity that's part of our practice. There's a part of our practice that's gentle and kind. I was talking about Zen is not about being nice, but we can still be kind, you know. But there's also a part of this practice that requires a great deal of rigor. If you're going to really climb a 100-foot pole, if you're going to really take on something and stick to it and eventually persevere. I see Alex here who's almost finished with his program at University of Chicago. I think he's had to work really hard.

[21:51]

And I think, you know, maybe all of you in some ways have worked really hard. And, you know, all of you at times have a sense of what it's like to be on top of a 100-foot pole. Or maybe not quite, but you can sort of see it up there a little bit. The point of this story is that that's not enough. So whether you put the locks on the door or on your mind, what do you do when you get to the top of a 100-foot pole? Well, the story says take another step. So a big part of our practice is being uncomfortable. Going beyond our comfort zone. Taking risks. Take another step. So Dogen Zenji calls it Buddha going beyond Buddha.

[22:52]

It's not enough to get to the top of the 100-foot pole. How do we keep going beyond? How do we keep away? Like Shakyamuni Buddha back in, you know, 2,500 years ago or whatever in northeastern, what's now northeastern India. He didn't stop practicing when he became the Buddha. He didn't stop awakening. So how do you keep going? How do you – how is Buddha going beyond Buddha? How do you – how do we take – make mistakes, make the right mistakes? So Bob Dylan said she not busy being born is busy dying. How do we stay alive and stay awake, stay awakening? It's very easy to be complacent. Even in this terrible world of the COVID pandemic and climate breakdown where Texas becomes like an Arctic zone

[23:59]

and we have all the snow and, you know, fires ravage California where Paul is. You know, we can sort of find a place where it's a little comfortable, you know. I've been feeling like I could spend, you know, the rest of my life in this apartment without leaving. I've been quarantined for 11 months. Oh, I go out occasionally, but not much. And it's, you know, it's a little comfortable. You know, I can watch Netflix. I can, you know, I can go on Zoom. I can, you know, anyway. How do we go beyond our comfort zone? How do we – how are we willing to be beyond control? So Paul's story about the shoe-sew ceremony, I really appreciate. I remember my shoe-sew ceremony and you get up there and people are, you know, one after another. We've done this at Ancient Dragon during – well, back in the ancient days when we had a temple at Irving Park Road.

[25:03]

And Aisha's been through it, and Douglas has been through it. And I used to do show song ceremonies. And maybe we can start doing that on Zoom sometime. But where one person after another asks a question, you have to respond. You can't just sit there being comfortable on the top of the 100-foot pole. If you do try and do that, you'll fall right off. So how do you just not have control, not have some idea of what you're doing, just meet each situation and respond? So our practice, as has been said, is how do we respond appropriately? So going beyond our comfort zone, going beyond our sense of control. This is true of our practice and how we practice day after day and pandemic after pandemic or whatever. And it's also true of our world, especially now.

[26:06]

This is – I think this is a great story for what's happening in the world. So our – I don't know if our society is at the top of a 100-foot pole. We kind of feel like we are. Paul was talking about this last week that the United States feels like it's this exceptional country that can rule the world. And we have military bases all over and all of that. But now how do we step ahead beyond this 100-foot pole? How are we willing to meet the fact that we cannot ignore the earth and the planet and the climate? And we cannot ignore our karma, our karmic legacy of the systemic racism going back to slavery and the unfairness to working people that has reflected in how our society is built.

[27:07]

So, you know, this is a story not just about individuals, but – and it's also about – not just about our society. It's about our community, too. We had a wonderful 100-foot pole at Irving Park Road. We had this wonderful little temple. Was it a 100-foot pole? It was only a 50-foot pole. It was small. But it was lovely. And we were there for a dozen years. And now we've stepped off into the strange new world of the Zoom. So how do we lose control? How do we be willing to see what we can do? And there will be an all-day sitting next Sunday that Douglas will be leading. So I encourage you all to – if you haven't done a longer sitting, or even if you haven't done one in a while, even if it's only on Zoom, it's a good way to dig in. To dig into climbing the 100-foot pole and then to letting go and leaping off.

[28:13]

Or you could just step off. You don't have to leap. You don't have to be melodramatic about it. How do we just let go of our sense of control? It's a delusion, you know. We can't control anything, actually. I mean, a lot of us are very – there are many people here who are very skilled. There are people who have PhDs or who have great skill in some area or know how to work with the Internet. A lot of you have a lot of skills, but still. Basically, we're out of control. Basically, the world, Tsukiroshi said, the world is its own magic. We live in this magical, mysterious, wonderful Buddha field. We can't control it.

[29:15]

So, you know, when you get to the top of a 100-foot pole, it's really tempting to hold on tight. And this story is about letting go. So, Paul – by the way, Paul, just a technical point. The chant we did is called the Hokyo Zamae, but it's very much related to the Sando Kai. Sando Kai, yes. Sorry. Yeah, well, the Hokyo Zamae is kind of a continuation of Sando Kai. But it says things like, you are not it. It actually is you. And so there's all kinds of – and that the teaching of Sushmita is intimately communicated. Now you have it. Let go. Take care of it well and jump off the 100-foot pole. So, anyway, that's my – some of my riffs about this 100-foot pole. Zengyu, you had some other things to add to that before we have discussion? Well, I was just – I was thinking about how – I was thinking more of the Sando Kai, how that – how we get a handle on that.

[30:28]

How we get some way of taking – of picking it up and putting it in our pocket and take it along with us so it becomes part of our everyday experience. And I realized that the various different teachers that I've studied with, they all had little sort of shorthands, little phrases, little shorthand phrases that they repeated. It sort of was their theme song that they would repeat as sort of their way of picking up that understanding. They were all a little bit different and they were all kind of the same. And the one that I actually wanted to talk about tonight, which I blanked on and couldn't remember, so I came up with 100-foot pole. But I really wanted to talk about nowhere to go and nothing to do, because I think that's significant right now, and for a number of reasons.

[31:29]

And then the concept of every day is a good day. Those are two – those are sort of two of my standbys that I work with. But then I studied with a Rinzai teacher in Japan, when I was living in Japan, and his only teaching was, no. Whatever it is, no. It was like, whatever you think it is, no, that's not it. There was no – it was all no. And the koan he wanted us to work with in our zazen was one. That was it, one. And whatever you came up with, whatever you said, it was no. Which was very powerful in its way. And then one of the Tsurugi Roshu's oldest disciples, Bill Kwong, up at Sima Mountain Center, he picked up on, only don't know.

[32:36]

So that's that, you know, if you don't know – if you don't have the answer, then there's room for the answer to appear. So it's only don't know, and no beginning, no end, which is also out of the same teaching. Zuku Roshu was always sort of like to chirp in and talk about, maybe not so. He liked to say that fish fly and birds swim. Anyway, so only don't know, I think, is his recurring theme. Maybe not so. And Katagiri Roshu, when he came over to Minneapolis, some of you may have studied with him even.

[33:40]

He, the teaching that I remember from him was to settle the self on the self. Settle the self on the self. He also lectured for almost three months about frickle. And it took us three months to figure out that frickle was, he meant fickle. Anyway, and he and Tatsugami had very different views on what Buddhism was. So for whatever reason, I don't know. Tatsugami was an aristocrat, and Katagiri was a first-time Zen person. His family was not a Zen family. So Tatsugami had been in Buddhism for probably centuries, his family lineage. So anyway, he was very much interested in our personal experience with ourselves.

[34:50]

And to settle the self on the self was the entry point, which was a teaching that I felt very fond with. And Tatsugami himself, what he repeated over and over again, and he even said it in English. It was, get on the railroad tracks of Dogen Zenji's way. Get on the railroad tracks of Dogen Zenji's way. So that's taking the locks off your mind and putting them on the door. If you just stick to Dogen Zenji's way, then you're safe. Unless somebody breaks the rails and you get knocked off the rails, and then you have no idea where you are. But anyway, as long as the railroad's running, you're in good shape. Anyway, I just see these as little handles, as little ways of understanding the teaching.

[35:53]

Little things to work on, how to sort of nibble away, make the vastness of Sado Kai be accessible. I mean, not doable, but accessible for us in our everyday life, in our everyday practice. They're all entry ports into that understanding. And there's a new movie out called, they were talking about this yesterday, about somebody living in an RV and moving around, which I'm dying to see. And I think maybe that's going to be an example of nowhere to go and nothing to do. But I don't know yet, I haven't seen it. Some of you have seen it, I think.

[36:54]

But anyway, thank you. Thank you, thank you. So yeah, it's good to have a slogan or two. So I'd like to say, Buddha going beyond Buddha, and also just enjoy your zazen. So that's maybe not strict enough. That's maybe too gentle. But if you sit all day, just enjoy your zazen can be challenging. So maybe that's enough for Paul and me to say. And we can open it up to anybody else. Aisha, I saw you were giving thumbs up to that movie, I guess it's called Nomadland. It's on my list. I haven't seen it yet. But do you have any slogans for us? I do.

[37:54]

But, you know, I would be remiss, Taigan, if I didn't say that you have also told us during all day sittings to just enjoy our pain. So as kind as that is, there is some pain involved and some rigor. It's funny, though, because, yes, so first of all, I really love the movie Nomadland. And I highly recommend it. And it felt very much like some version of the Buddha way to me. Maybe my version. And that's, I think, my question, because if I were to have a slogan, you know, for my practice, it would be, there's no strategy. And so I was kind of struck by Zengi, you were talking about, you know, get on the railroad to Dogen Zengi's way or something that would keep you safe.

[39:00]

And that seems to be something that has never actually worked for me. What I've found through in my practice is that there's really no strategy. You have to kind of just respond to the situation. And I wonder if, I guess that's my question, is I wonder if the slogan that one adopts really is unique to the particular student, you know, and how we relate to ourselves and how we relate to our world. And I wondered if either of you could comment on that. I'll just say no strategy is just like stepping off the top of a hundred foot pole. That's all. Just let go. Thank you. The railroad tracks of Dogen Zengi's way is an example of the Japanese approach. And that's the one that Suzuki Roshi was quite pleased to find didn't exist here in America.

[40:05]

And that's why he called it Beginner's Mind, because we didn't have the railroad tracks. So that's the failing of Japanese Zen is that it relies on railroad tracks. But on the other hand, not having that format is also daunting as well. And we get involved in trying to imagine and build railroad tracks in our minds. So it's just part of the oneness and the whole. It's part of what we have to figure out how to jump there. How to come to terms with. So if you rely on one or the other, you have a problem.

[41:10]

Just from having lived in Japan for a couple of years or so, they have wonderful trains. Shinkansen. So they have railroad tracks that get you there fast and they run on time and you can depend on the schedule. So the bullet train, you know, that's something else. We don't have anything like that here where we don't have much infrastructure. So just to note that. There's something wonderful about those railroad tracks. More than wonderful. Beyond comprehension. If you want to change trains at a big station, they'll ask you, do you want two minutes of time to change trains? Or do you want six minutes? Or do you want eight? Or do you want 10 minutes? How long do you want to change trains? And then they'll arrange the train for that. And the timing is that intense. Minutes. So other comments or questions or responses, reflections, please feel free.

[42:16]

Yes, Ko. In the first reading of the case, I was struck with the image of stepping off and filling the universe. And I think I heard that right. But in your talk, I didn't hear anything about the filling of the universe. Is there anything that that evokes for you? Well, the filling the universe, it was. It was like it was. How to say it. The void, the void was filled. There was nothing you could just. It was like. You could just jump out and slide on it like a big, like a big grassy field or a big snowbank or something. It was like there was no. There was no depth. The void was the void was was was filled.

[43:26]

And I would add that when you let go of the hundred foot pole, all, you know, it's a metaphor, of course, for all the hard work that we all put into trying to progress and develop our lives and make progress at some particular aspiration or endeavor. And, you know, be strict and good at it and learn how to do it when you let go. It's just vast and wide and you can you don't need to depend on some particular skill when you step off the hundred foot pole. It's a good thing to climb to the top of a hundred foot pole. You know, this is something that, you know, whether it's a hundred foot pole or a 50 foot pole or a 25 foot pole, maybe it doesn't matter. But when you when you know, when you work at something and and accomplish something, that's a nice feeling, you know. But then how do you go beyond?

[44:29]

How do you let go of that? How do you. And that's where, you know, the whole universe is there. The way you describe it, it sounds like what I think retirement will be like. Where, you know, you don't have to keep sort of striving at all these things, you just sort of the whole world is just open. But but that's kind of scary, too. You know, I find that I like to hold on to my overwork and and it's scary to think about, you know, nothing to do and nowhere to go. Well, I remember that I had that experience for many years. And now that I am on the other side of that, even though I'm still working hard, but I have that retirement kind of mentality. I don't I don't feel the way that I don't have to.

[45:31]

So I don't have to save the world anymore. And the world is going to be just fine the way it is. It's quite a wonderful place to be, actually. But yes, for 70 some years, I felt that way, too, that I had that I had to trudge ahead and and make make the waves through the bright. Other comments, please. This this tension or rhythm of struggling and working and accomplishing and all of that, which is part of our American way, I guess. But then there's this other side, which is the spaciousness of just letting go of that, stepping free, stepping off.

[46:35]

Doesn't mean giving up. It doesn't mean not paying attention. But how do we just enjoy our breath? As I sometimes say. First hand was up among his trees. Was that. OK. You guys talked about letting go of the need to be scripted or controlled. Also, Dogen mentions in the Tenzo Kuchiyokun that the cooks would get together at the heads of the temple and get together and discuss the meals for the next day. And so there's an element of preparation that's still necessary. So where is that role filled in the need for preparation before action? Is that is that still important if you're letting go of all these things?

[47:37]

Yes, of course. That's your. You're not you're you're letting go, but you're not you're not stopping. I mean, you're still you're still fully active. You're still you're still nowhere to go and nothing to do. Doesn't mean that you don't go anywhere. You don't do anything. It means that you don't you're not you. You have the you have the ability to go everywhere and do everything. And so the cooks, the cook, the Dogen's interest in the cooks was very close to my heart because as a crafts person, that's the same kind of thing. And you have to you have to work very hard to get all the vegetables and the rice and everything cooked at the same time and and not have too much, not have too little and and have to get something good for the for the for the sangha. And I mean, it's it's it's all it's all it's all very important to take care of.

[48:46]

Just like just like, you know, we have to take care of our lives. We have to, like, you know, build the fires and get the water and do all the things that we can't just lay back and expect someone to feed us. You know, we have to we have to take care of our life. But we don't have but we don't have to. We don't have to have it be a weight. It doesn't have to be a weight on us. It doesn't have to be a problem. It's it's it's the it's the it's letting it is letting it letting it letting the activities do themselves. I have two examples of that from my life. I've spoken about this sometimes, but I before I became a full time Zen person, I used to work as a film editor. This is way back in the 70s and 80s. And I worked to documentary films, but that ended up meaning back then doing a lot of television news.

[49:51]

So I worked in TV news for a long time. And part of that was even just a fairly short story. I was I was most interested in just the flow of the images. You know, I was interested in the art of editing and film. But sometimes I would have to have a have a story that was going to go on on the air on television and five or 10 minutes. And I was working with pieces of film. And there was somebody standing over my shoulder ready to run it literally to the projector to go on the air to be to be broadcast. And that required that I know very well what I wanted to do and where all the different pieces were and how to and the physical part of putting it together. And I could I learned that I could only do that. If I didn't rush, didn't slow down mentally, at least, and just took care of each thing.

[50:58]

So in some ways, in that space, it was like stepping off the 100 foot pole. I knew that what I had to do. But and it was there was it was high pressure and some on some level, but it was a space of just spaciousness. A second example of that a little later after when I started working for Zen Center, I worked at Tassajara Bakery in San Francisco when it was a Zen bakery. It was a wonderful practice place. And I worked in various parts of that. But that included working behind the counter. And Saturday mornings, there'd be a line out the door for hours. And I'd be behind. There'd be two of us behind the counter and the cashier and each person who comes up. You know, what do you want? And is that a large or small blueberry? And do you want it for here to go? And and, you know, all all the different particulars of what that person wanted that prepared me for doing jokes on, by the way.

[52:00]

But anyway, there were two of us behind the counter and the cashier and we had to move around each other. It was a very small space. We had to move around each other, get the different things, put them in bags or on plates and get ready next to the cashier so he could take care of the next person. So it was this very concentrated dance. And I could only do that. You can only do that if you're really relaxed and breathing and not rushing. But moving very quickly. And so, you know, both of those are examples that I think of as stepping off the 100 foot pole. You know what you're doing very clearly. You know where everything is. You know where this where the bran muffins are and where the blueberry muffins are and where each of the different Danish trays are. And you just make it happen. So maybe some of you have experiences of that kind of a space of high intensity.

[53:02]

And again, the line was at the door for five hours. So anyway, but really it was like stepping off a 100 foot pole. So Jokaj, your question reminded me of that. It's getting on time-wise, but if there's one or two more comments or responses or questions about any of this, we could enjoy those. And Paul, I didn't mean to insult you by comparing you to Tatsugami Roshi. What? I didn't mean to insult you by comparing you to Tatsugami Roshi.

[54:02]

That was my expression of my great appreciation for your being here with us. So thank you. I didn't take it that way at all. But because he was, he was, I just want a little vignette that I think of when my son was born about six months before I left for Japan, before Suzuki Roshi sent me to Japan just before he was dying. And I have this picture of Suzuki Roshi standing in front of a brick, a stone wall at Tatsuhara holding my son, Benjamin, and Tatsugami standing next to him. And Suzuki said, I'm the mother, he's the father. So it's sort of a tag team kind of relationship. It has nothing, no good or bad to it.

[55:08]

Anyway, I'm not very good at staying on railroad tracks. So I don't, I don't even, I don't even have a clue for what that's about. Good. Thank you. Ishii, were you going to say something? Oh, yes. I'm going to, unless there's somebody else who wants to say something who hasn't said anything. But I, you know, you really both have brought this koan to life in an important way. And I just want to comment about koans in general, that, you know, we read them and they're always either completely out of context or in a context that, you know, we know a couple details and they have nothing to do with our lives. And it can feel like, you know, trying to sit with that and understand it, like we have to like get something. But I love how you kind of just brought it to life through your own life. And I wonder if that's really the point of koans is that we bring them to life in our lives or we understand them in our lives or we understand our lives enough.

[56:11]

I think that's quite true. I think the koans, people sort of think of them as being some sort of passages or hurdles you have to jump over or something like that. But they're just they're teaching stories, basically. And they're just showing different aspects of Buddhist understanding. And they're just little teaching tools. And it's difficult to understand them because they were written in a country that was a thousand years ago or more and totally different cultural background. But they're still alive in our life, in our life and in our everyday life. I mean, some of them especially are especially alive. And because we know people like that or we know ourselves like that or we fall into that situation or we tend to think of things that way or we want to know the answer between two things where there is no answer.

[57:18]

They're not they're not supposed to be mysterious. Well, Buddhas and ancestors were as we was that Buddhas and ancestors were as we we in turn shall be Buddhas and ancestors. Yeah, we are. And on that note, unless there's somebody else who has something to add. So, Jokai, would you please lead us in the four Bodhisattva vows and then we'll have some announcements and chance to just hang out informally. These are numberless. How to free them. Delusions are possible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to realize it. Beings are numberless. I vow to free them. Delusions are inexhaustible.

[58:21]

I vow to end them Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to realize it. Beings are numberless. I vow to free them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to realize it.

[58:50]

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