That's strange. On the other side, why not? Do you have it with you? No, no. I never use it outside of the monastery. But now, my dear confrere, if you have some questions about all these historical, the past things, you could also protest. If my vision was not always correct, It's difficult to say. And of course, I could also ask you, is this really so? That was his intention, to remain a small community, We discussed, I remember at times, what that meant.

[01:02]

And it seems to me, and anybody can correct me, that we arrived at around 40, 35. Oh yes, sure. Maybe up to 50 or so, somewhere between 35 and 50, I think. Sure, but not necessarily only 20 or 10, no. No, do you remember the building that was designed for 40? I think so, yes. But then you'd have a guest master, and the second thing, there are other rooms, we could live on top. Father Plata, did you remember any numbers we came up with on the discussion of the size of the community? Around 1962 or so. Around 1962? No, but when Reverend Father would talk about the size of the community, that he thought it should be ideally, how large you would get before you make another foundation or what was it you would say? How many did you have already? Thirty-three. That was part of the rationale of the argument.

[02:18]

What did he say? He came in. He came in? Oh, that is not new. One day I asked the abbot of Genesee in Gethsemane, he was there. Was it really so that you had 100 novices? Yes, but every day another. Therefore also, always moving, moving on. Somebody will ask a question. No, I said, wasn't the fact that in 62, 63 and 64 when we reached the optimum level, It wasn't part of the rationale for establishing Christ in the Desert to be a daughter house, so that I know Paul Reilly was the one who was the motive force behind it.

[03:20]

It wasn't the idea that then the overflow would be able to go to New Mexico with the opportunity there. I think the idea of the smaller community was more so many that it is possible to stay together as a family. For example, if you have 100, it's very difficult to talk together in 100. It's difficult, it's possible, yes. I have a question about the early history of Maria Lodge. The monastery was bought from the Jesuits in 1890? Yes, 92. And when you joined in 1920, there were about 100 monks? We had perhaps 120, 130 years.

[04:29]

Were those 30 years a period of phenomenal growth, or did Beuron send many monks to begin them? The start, the beginning of Maria Laage has been, or have been, the beginnings have been very splendid. Beuron has sent in one group 12 monks. It was a marvellous beginning. And Bochum was very much impressed himself by the greatness of our church. in some of our publications is described the history of the first inspection of this house. And Oduro Wolff, one of the very important monks of the Bavarian congregation, he was prior in Amos in Prague, he said, Maria will be the new cluny. It's also typical for this region, powerful monasteries.

[05:32]

Esclunie, the Middle Age. Today, we don't like any more Clunie. We don't wish to become Esclunie. But nevertheless, in this moment, Montréal is such a wonderful monastery, in such a wonderful scenery, that we must begin immediately. And also, Boiron was in a situation. They must found a new monastery, because they had too many. They were growing, growing. And also you must think at that time, in the 19th century, more or less, the Benedictines have been nearly, not a unique order, but of others, more than a congregation, have not been. Verbum Divinum was not yet flourishing and so on. We had especially in Beuron and in Maria Lager many, many vocations for lay provosts. When I came, we had more than 100 provosts already in 1922, and perhaps 40 priests, or 30, and 10 novices and 15 clerics.

[06:38]

Nevertheless, it was nice and it was good. For example, all this labor was excellent men, pious men, ready to stay together like a great flock. I have been a master of the war in 1937, 1939, no, 1936, 1937, until I was expelled from Germany by Hitler. They were ready to stay together in silence during the recreation, and the so-called instructor, the master, must speak, tell the news, or sometimes talking and so on. But to talk together in 100 is impossible. nearly impossible. Therefore, so far as I see the situation, Damozo wishes to have a smaller community where it is possible to stay as a family together in greater simplicity, in greater also activity of everyone.

[07:50]

which must collaborate for the common talk and common work. At least so I see it, more or less. Therefore, the number is not so important. 20, well, it's not enough, also because we become elder, older, elder, older. And then we need young people. because sometimes the young people are serving to the old when the economy moves. I remember that occasionally there would be those kinds of talks of what would be the ideal number. Of course, nobody knew. But as far as I remember, it ranged between around, like, say, 35 to about 40 to 50. I mean, there was never any occasion to draw the line except in the building of the building. But it seems to me that I remember even then that it was said that there would be other, those other rooms could be used for, it was felt that around

[08:52]

It would be very convenient also to take that in mind, to come to this possibility, if God allows it. And there was still another point which I heard from himself, from Damasus himself, or somebody else told it to me. He never wished to become abbot. And in a certain day, Abbot Bernard Cayley, the primate, has said to him, Father Damasus, now your monastery is well founded, and you must become an abbey. And you said, Abbot, that you have a voice between our American abbeys. He did not agree. Therefore, remaining a little bit not a smaller community, but here again against this danger of the great abbeys to become big, excuse me, big prelates.

[10:06]

This is Capa Magna. If you remember also in the history of St. John's Abbey, you can see it very quickly All these abbots of the new small monasteries in the Catholic congregation became abbot. And in the pictures you can see them with... No, no, first with, how do you call it, with Mozzetta. And then very quickly, the art of Boniface Wimow, Capamagna. The art of St. John's, Capamagna. The art of St. Maynard, Capamagna. And we in Maria Lack too, in a certain location, also to have a testimony against our adversaries, Capamagna. in 26. No, we are laughing about it, saying it is a horse mantle. A horse blanket.

[11:07]

And we don't need a horse blanket to go into the Hermes. But here again, simplicity. Not so enormously great Bertrand, this morning you mentioned, like at the time of the Vatican Council, the Second Council, that Mary Locke wasn't invited. But then, was it in the Second Session that you were consulted? I became a consultant already in 1964, therefore during the Council itself, yes. I think It was per se the idea of Augustinus Mayer, the rector prior to that time in St.

[12:07]

Anselmo, because St. Anselmo has been invited to give us names. And if there is any good proof that in that time we were not too badly estimated, then nobody was protesting against a monk of Maria Laach. So that was the situation. And my cooperation and mostly the cooperation of Theodor Buchler and Raphael Hombach has not been too important. But I have said it only because Balthasar Fischer, a very important liturgist, one of the great consultants really in this consilium, he has said it is a pity that Maria Laack was not called to cooperate in the preparation of the council and during the council. In the period after the council, it was different, he thought to me.

[13:11]

And then my possibility was that I have been present in every of the great sessions of the bishops and cardinals. Thirty bishops and cardinals were sitting together twice or three times a year in Rome in Santa Marta near to St. Peter or in the Vatican itself. And thirty consultors have been present to help the bishops and the cardinals. And perhaps I said it already, sometimes the visuals became nervous. I said, we don't wish to work in the presence of the consultants. Go away. We wish to be alone. And the next day, they called us back because without the consultants, they could not go on. And then they said, you must come back but you must not speak if you are not invited to do it.

[14:15]

After some days we could again speak in the best peace. No, no, we worked well together. The institute, Father Bernhard, the... The Academy. The Academy, yeah. It had the double focus of liturgy... And monastic, yes, yes. In the beginning, Abbot Hildebrands Herwegen has taught always for the monastic life of his community. That is quite true. But nevertheless, in his activity in the first years, Also, still in 1920, liturgy was in the first situation. But then with time he was realizing, I must insist more, or at least in the same way, in the same measure also in the study of monastic life, monastic realization.

[15:19]

And so also, liturgy is growing better if we can show that we are living liturgically in our community. But we must do it also as monks, not as a published church and so on. No, both, both, both. He himself was seeing that it is necessary to go back to the old monastic times. He did not yet see the importance, for example, of the rule of the master, regula magistri. Contrary, he said in his commentary, to say that the rule of the master is before the rule of St. Benedict is ridiculous. You could not conceive that this strange rule would be the source for St. Benedict. It was earlier then. Yes, earlier. He said it, no, he said it still in his great commentary written and finished during the war, the Second World War.

[16:25]

The old generation could not agree with that. There is nothing of... of terrible in it that Saint Benedict has always said, I take from the tradition. He took it from the desert, Palladius, Historia Rosiaca, Verba Seniorum, of all these old histories of the desert in Egypt, and also from the Rule of the Master. But we needed time to digest it. Father, you mentioned the apothecary, you mentioned the apothecary and other funds. his use of that as a juxtaposition to the obedience to a rule as opposed to the liberty of the apothekata.

[17:29]

Could you say something more on that? In what way was he using the apothekata? In the first beginning, monastic life, the meaning of monastic life was to follow a spiritual father and to hear, to listen to his words. No rule. You could live two, three, four together in the desert in some house, but you must listen to his edifying words. There was no concrete observance, no common rule for a greater group. Everyone could do what he liked to do, and there was a very great liberty, but from time to time a wonderful world. How, for example, Like the little words in chapter 4, Christo omnigil, amore Christi nigli prepono, nothing prefer to love the love of Christ.

[18:39]

Or, lecciones sanctas libenta audire, be ready to hear with great pleasure sacred lectures. Or, orazioni frequenta incumbere, very frequently pray, private prayers, pray always. You know, that is enough, only chapter four, but in the rule you have much more. And therefore, especially in the, not only the rule of St. Benedict, but the rule of St. Benedict is not enough, then you have, in the later times, all this, what do you call it, declaraciones in regulum sancti benedicti of Gruny, of Hirschau, of Melk, and then of Santa Justina, of Monte Cassino, of Torsfeld, and of Beuron, of American Cassinis. And also you have already some written, or not written, but you have some customs.

[19:42]

You are already, you have some, yeah, your way to live. There is not total liberty in your house. Sometimes it's difficult. In a certain way, the first monastic life was more convenient to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit is not always speaking, sometimes it's better to have a rule. Otherwise you lose your spirit totally. was attempting to recover something of that liberty? In a certain way, yes. I would say so. It is difficult to say. In the first beginning, according to the tradition of Bayron, he was insisting in their observance and so also we learned it in novitiate. We must do what is the uses of the house, commune, monasterie, regula, omnis de quanto.

[20:46]

One of the words of chapter four. All must follow the common rule of the house. You know it, our observance in our monasteries was and still is very, very strict. And I was the so-called, how do you call it in English, gelato, the assistant of the master. You don't have that. I was a strong one. Insisting. And we old people, we sometimes today are suffering when we see that the young people don't do it anymore. So we learned it. For example, we were learned hands always under the scapula. To go so is nearly a mortal sin. And many other things, but it's ridiculous to insist too much in these things.

[21:49]

But here it is difficult to say where is and the limit of this liberty, and where is the damage of the rule, and so on. It was typical of Beuron, actually, being a bit also centralist. Yeah, also. But then, very quickly, these different others obtained their liberty. But still, in the 20th, we were fighting sometimes. after the death of the first founders, the two archi-abbots, the three first archi-abbots. Beuron, the monastery itself, did not wish to have always an old abbot capable to be the abbot president of the congregation. They wished to have a young abbot. Therefore, they elected in 1918 the very young abbot Raphael Walsow.

[22:52]

and he was too young to be president of the congregation and therefore abbot rafael molitor from galilee was elected president with time the archabbot of beuron the young rafael walser tried to re-obtain the power and by some things behind In Rome, he succeeded. And the result has been a very big crisis. Finally, he must have left Germany. It was a painful situation for Bayern itself. And there were also financial difficulties and political difficulties altogether. And again, your government of the Congression was not centralized. from Gallipoli. He did not wish to be a subject of Berlin.

[23:57]

He was a canonist? He was a canonist, a good canonist. He knew very well the history of the Benedictine monarchism, which is not centralized. But he knew also the canonists, it's true. He was a master in the science of canonists. He was a very effective when canon law was being made up in 1930. Yes, yes, yes. He was a very important man. He was, in a certain way, a terrible abbot. Terrible abbot. Very powerful. And strong in his monastery. But excellent for the entire congregation. Very liberal. When he came to Maria Larkin, it was a pleasure to speak with him, to take him in joke. And meanwhile, in his own monastery, nobody had the courage to speak when he was present. Those are strange things. But we were speaking about this. Did the other Bohemians have the same tradition of scholarship as Maria Locke?

[25:02]

With Maria Locke? Yes. It depends from the concrete situation. Bohemian is splendid also today still, especially in his works for the Vetus Latina. and all the Palimpsest Institute. And Gjerdag also has very important monks. The other monasteries are smaller, but they do what they can do. There is no... Per se, Beuron was, according also to the Sister of Solene, Beuron liked to have scientific work. especially because scientific work has given us the possibility not to go out. This was the tendency of Poirot. No Padish churches, so far as possible. You must work, therefore, if you don't work manually, then you must work in science. And when I remember the words of this letter of Father Albert Hammenscheide to Albert Alko in Deutsch where he says that the novices and clerics in our congregation did not work so hardly as the young monks in the American congregations, it is really true.

[26:20]

And here again is a point where Father Damasus was criticizing us. We in the novices had every day three quarters of manual work. to learn it, to help a little bit. And for the rest we were studying and praying. And as clerics in one day of the week, three quarters. And today, our young novices all must work like an old monk, as you are doing it. Really, not only performer, doing a little bit, cleaning a little bit the floor, but also really in the kitchen and in the entire house, and real work. And because we are not so numerous, also they are in the program of the house.

[27:21]

Sometimes their life is not so agreeable as our life was in the novitiate. We could enjoy it, certainly. Father, have you heard any piece about the movement that we heard from the Abbot Primate to have small houses like ourselves go under some of the bigger congregations? There seems to have been a little pressure there. Can you give us any reasons for that or pros and cons in your opinion? And therefore, when I understood, well, Fr. D'Ambrosio said, no, the Primate said to Fr. D'Ambrosio, you must become abbot that you have a voice in, no? This is very recently, like our last visitation, Abbot Martin Byrne was mentioning to us the possibility of exploring larger congregations because

[28:26]

Father Abbot Victor Darmit would like these independent houses to get underneath. How do you feel about that? The reason for that is especially it is good to have helpers. If everyone is alone, sometimes it can be very difficult. Therefore, it's better to have a fraternal and both fraternal help to stay together. And also, excuse me, the Abbot Bremer does not like to have many houses where he is responsible. Very far, he cannot do nothing really. And if he must come to make the visitation, he must travel. It's too much for him. He wishes that all the independent houses with time come to a congregation. There is a good law of the Benedictine history since the 13th century.

[29:29]

It is better for the different single houses remaining independent, not centralized as in Cluny, nevertheless to make a congregation. Especially in the end of the Middle Ages, Bolsfeld, Santa Justina, the actual Casanese congregation in Italy, Austrian, Swiss, and the modern congregations all, it is better so. And then also, for the states here, I think the primate, and perhaps also you, you say there are different monasteries which have this new type. Not as the big Aves, not as the Trappists, but in a new way. You, Western, Christ in the Desert, and perhaps some Yeah, St. Louis. And here you see, also in St.

[30:31]

Louis, I think, the influence of these new tendencies of Montevideo and Weston. The big abbeys, so far as I can see, all changed a little bit. Reading in the history of St. John's, I see after a terrible crisis Under the second abbot, Alexius, they were protesting, the younger, many monks, especially his successor, Bernard, I think, or so on, protesting against the too great activity of the houses. From the first beginning of the American Catholic congregation has been only to be pastors. for the German people, immigrants, and so forth. In a certain way, they have not been benedicted, so it's difficult to say.

[31:33]

But then, under the third, the fourth, and the fifth Abbot in the College of Realty, it changed to be more monastic, to do the work inside of the community. They cannot do otherwise great many parishes, but they are changing. Changing also in their monastic inspiration, in the way in which they are celebrating liturgy, in greater simplicity. They don't like the great pontifical function as it was before. This idea of Father Damatos is not his idea only. It's the idea of all the clever-minded people who say, who see we must go back to a time when the abbot was not a smaller bishop. Monastery is not identical with the congregation of priests. Monasticism is Dhammasus and some other monastics must fight to get the permission that somebody can become monk without becoming priest.

[32:41]

We have seen always the difference between priesthood and monastic life. But to realize this really, we did not yet succeed in all these points. You know these difficulties. There are still some difficulties. But we must try to find our way. with patience and also reasonability. One of the salient distinguishing factors perhaps, one of the distinguishing factors or elements in our tradition perhaps, the very thing that Abbot Ildefons wanted to recover, that is, something from perhaps the Eastern... Also, yes, [...] yes. ...that in the West, the development of law and... You are right, yeah. ...concepts grew so much and took over organizations and communities as well.

[33:46]

That is the Western mentality, yes, and we need the mentality of the Eastern Church of Charity and the greater liberty. Yes, which is, of course, actually managed by Abraham Lincoln. Prismatic, oh yes, yes, yes. But it is only one with him, actually, that this began. He knew with the West, right? And in a certain way, in my real life, we were discovering all these points one after another. in a very strange way. So that sometimes, about Raphael Molitor, an excellent man, and we have been great friends, Maria Larke and Gerlach. Nevertheless, sometimes he was inviting us. Then he came to us and said, this is strange, Maria Larke, you are like a cuckoo. Like a what? Like a bird, he was cuckoo. How do you call it in English? Cuckoo. [...] Mysterium. Cuckoo. monastic life. Kukuk, Pluma. Kukuk, Agape.

[34:48]

And when I tried to see, it already disappeared. It's not so bad. But all this has been new acquisitions. And still we must try to go deeper. This element, would you say, has it really spread very far? Yeah, yeah, of course. And we are not the only ones who have detected it. But we have been one of the great elements, and therefore the book you have given to me is very, of this Franciscan father, is very strange. He speaks about all our topics, never, never, never nominating a name of Kassel or of other people. He gives a citation of mine, a small article in the lexicon. and not important. He must speak about the first source.

[35:51]

He did not do it. It's not right. We are one, one. We are not the only one. Therefore, the book is good because he is speaking about all these sources of our theologians, Jesuits and Franciscans. Okay. But not to speak about us is not right. We have been really one of the sources who have detected these elements, Burma, agape, charity, and Eastern Also, we have received these things from Lombardy and from Belgium. In no way I wish to say that we have been the only one to have done this. But nevertheless, we have received, we have conserved, we have tried to deepen it and also to bring it to others. Would you say that this particular element of the pneumatics dimension in monastic tradition is something somewhat specifically discovered, which are therefore also ought to be our also.

[36:55]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. I would say indeed this little critique of Father Damasus is especially the accent given to these plamatic elements. But Abba Teravinghe has seen it already in this little book Father's book, Apostlegma and Rule. And also he says explicitly when in my—he, Albert Herbergen says, when in my commentary to the Rule of St. Benedict, where I have received many information from other commentaries, from Delatt, from Solemn, and so on, when there is some specific element, then this sublimation, this accent is given to the diplomatic element, the prima, the spiritus. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But liberty knows also obedience. And the Holy Spirit knows submission. Spiritus es spiritus ordinis is the spirit of good order, not of tumult.

[38:05]

But we must finish. You see, it's very nice to stay together in a small group to come and discuss these problems. If you are 30, it would be better.

[38:27]

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