Good morning. So this morning I'd like to speak about an old Zen song, one of our golden oldies. It's called the Song of the Grass Hut or the Song of the Grass Roof Hermitage. It's by an old Chinese Zen master in our lineage from the 8th century, so it's more than 1200 years old. And there's a translation of it in a book I did a little while ago called Cultivating the Empty Field. And because back in the 700s they didn't have CDs or recording studios or any of that, we don't know the melody anymore, but here are the lyrics. I'll start off just by reading them.

[01:03]

Song of the Grass Hut. I've built a grass hut where there's nothing of value. After eating, I relax and enjoy a nap. When it was completed, fresh weeds appeared. Now it's been lived in, covered by weeds. The person in the hut lives here calmly, not stuck to inside, outside, or in between. Places worldly people live, he doesn't live. Realms worldly people love, she doesn't love. Though the hut is small, it includes the entire world. In ten feet square, an old man illumines forms and their nature. A Mahayana bodhisattva trusts without doubt. The middling or lowly can't help wondering, will this hut perish or not? Perishable or not, the original master is present, not dwelling south or north, east

[02:03]

or west. Firmly based on steadiness, it can't be surpassed. A shining window below the green pines, jade palaces or vermilion towers can't compare with it. Just sitting with head covered, all things are at rest. Thus, this mountain monk doesn't understand at all. Living here, he no longer works to get free. Who would proudly arrange seats trying to entice guests? Turn around the light to shine within, then just return. The vast inconceivable source can't be faced or turned away from. Meet the ancestral teachers, be familiar with their instruction, bind grasses to build a hut and don't give up. Let go of hundreds of years and relax completely. Open your hands and walk, innocent. Thousands of words, myriad interpretations are only to free you from obstructions.

[03:08]

If you want to know the undying person in the hut, don't separate from this skin bag here and now. So I want to say a little bit this morning about this song, the song of the grass hut. So the person who wrote this, we say Sekito Kisen in the morning is his name in Japanese in our lineage, in Chinese Shito, Shichan, also wrote another poem that some of you are familiar with. In Japanese it's called Sando Kai. It's in English harmonizing of difference and sameness, also known as merging of difference and unity. So in that poem, Sekito talks about the realm of difference, the realm of diversity, the ordinary world out there, the conventional realm with all its distinctions, and he talks about the realm of sameness, the realm of non-duality, the realm of unity, which maybe

[04:11]

we get a glimpse of when we just sit with all things at rest. And one of the important lines in that poem is grasping at things is surely delusion, but according with sameness is still not enlightenment. So that poem is about the kind of the philosophical background of how we integrate our taste of sameness, of unity, of emptiness, of wholeness with the usual, all the usual distinctions and problems and various distinctions of the world. So that poem is kind of the philosophical background, and I feel like the Song of the Grass Hut is about how to practice that. This is Sekito's description of his practice. How do we practice this harmonizing of sameness and difference? So that harmonizing of difference and sameness has been chanted for a thousand years in morning

[05:15]

service and here too often at morning service in the Japanese monotone style of chanting we have here. As far as I know, the Song of the Grass Hut hasn't been chanted ever in Chinese or Japanese or English until last month in a monthly group I lead in Bolinas. And these are important texts for us. There's a new book coming out next year, I think, of Suzuki Roshi, our founder's lectures on the harmonizing of difference and sameness. Right now the practice period in the center is focusing on this text. So I wanted to talk about this Song of the Grass Hut and how do we actually practice this. So just to start at the beginning, I've built a grass hut where there's nothing of value. After eating I relax and enjoy a nap. So this is about simple everyday life. This is about just relaxing, eating, sleeping, ordinary everyday stuff.

[06:22]

He says there's nothing of value because whatever we value is going to pass away. So there's nothing to value. There's no thing to hold on to. There's nothing, no valuables to possess ultimately. But because there's nothing of value we could say what's in the grass hut is worthless or we could just say it's priceless. It can't be measured in dollars, can't be bought or sold. So Sekito himself actually built a little grass hut like this, a little hermitage on top of a rock near his monastery. And his name means rock head or it could be translated as on the rock. So these hermitages, we could take it literally, in fact there was a tradition in China and Japan of building little hermitages and retreating up to the mountains. But what I feel this song is about is how do we create our own space for practice, our

[07:24]

own grass hut wherever we are. So actually Sekito may have had this little grass hut but he had many students also and this word that's translated as grass hut is a name for some monasteries in China and Japan, some of them very large. So the point is how do we find this space, how do we build a grass hut for ourselves, how do we build a space where we can carry out our own spiritual practice, our own spiritual values, find our own deepest truth. He says, when it was completed, fresh weeds appeared. Now it's been lived in, covered by weeds. So I myself relate this to the weeds of papers and books that I have to sort through on my desk and floor periodically, covered in weeds. The person in the hut lives here calmly, not stuck to inside, outside, or in between.

[08:31]

Places worldly people live, he doesn't live. Things worldly people love, she doesn't love. So this is an important point and kind of bitter in a way and something we have to face when we build our grass hut. That this whole spiritual practice and the grass hut or Green Gulch Farm in some ways exists as a counter to the conventional world. The spiritual community Sangha is an alternative, in some ways an example of something other than the usual way of doing things. The places worldly people love and the realms worldly people love. So spiritual community exists as some place we can come to on a Sunday morning or sometimes to sit all day or sometimes people move here for a few months or however long. It exists as an alternative to the usual rat race distinctions of the world.

[09:39]

So this is the grass hut. It's actually also the meaning of the shaved head that in our tradition that we get it, we receive it, priest ordination. It's kind of a counter fashion statement, countering the usual fashions of the world. But I don't know anymore since Phil Jackson, Roshi shaved Michael Jordan's head, it seems to have lost some of its meaning, become fashionable. Anyway whether it's up in the mountains or whether you're working down on Market Street, how do you build this space where there's nothing to value, nothing to hold on to, where you can just be there, calmly present, living calmly? How do you find your, build your own space for practice? So Dogen says, there's Dogen who brought this tradition from China to Japan in the 13th

[10:45]

century, brought this lineage of grass huts and harmonizing difference and sameness. He said, there's no Buddha Dharma in the mundane world. But there's nothing mundane in the Buddha Dharma. So we have to face the entire world and yet we sometimes see that it's not, there's not much out there that we, we sometimes want to run to a grass hut, you know. We want to come for some refuge to a place like Green Gulch. And these days one of Zen Center's biggest problems is that we can't, we don't have enough spaces for the people who want to come and sit sessions or do practice periods at our three practice places. So many people are feeling that there is no Buddha Dharma in the mundane world. Last night I had the pleasure of hearing my favorite American Dharma poet, Bob Dylan, down in Mountain View with Van Morrison for dessert, it was great.

[11:49]

And you know there's this Dylan song where he says, sometimes even the President of the United States must have to stand naked. And in the same song he says, it's easy to see without looking too far that not much is really sacred. So recently I think we're, we've been deluged in our national media and national political discourse seems to have forgotten about any real social problems and whether you're tired of hearing about the President's sexual misconduct or whether you're tired of Kenneth Starr's Inquisitions about it, it's, we naturally want to retreat to some grass hut in the face of all that. So Sekito says, though the hut is small, it includes the entire world. In ten feet square an old man illumines forms and their nature.

[12:53]

So this is very important, the hut is maybe small but it includes the entire world. And this ten feet square is a reference to Sutra about the great enlightened layman Vimalakirti who was a student of the historical Buddha in 500 BC in northern India. And he had this little ten foot square room and he managed to include into it many, many disciples and bodhisattvas, great awakening beings and spirits. So it's interesting that this idea of the grass hut became in China and Japan kind of a model for many poets and literati and writers and meditators to build some little space where they could go up in the mountains and get away from all the troubles of the world. But Vimalakirti, who had this original ten foot square hut, lived completely immersed in the world. And yet he was more enlightened, wiser than all of the great monk disciples.

[13:55]

So I feel like he's a great example for us in our lay practice in America. He insisted on not retreating from the world and being right in the middle of the world. So he would go to hang out in bars and hang out on the stock exchange and spend time teaching and hang out with dancing girls. He even was in the government. And wherever he went, though, he would help awaken beings and was considered the greatest of whoever was there in that worldly realm. And yet he also had this grass hut. So I think, again, even if you work in a cubicle downtown in a high rise, how do you find the space to build a grass hut there? This is the question that we have to face. What do you know? It includes the entire world.

[14:59]

So if you go to Tassajara, to the monastery, to try and get away from the problems of the world, you'll find that all the problems that you have will go with you. And everything in the world is right there. If you come and live at Green Gulch, still the problems of the world are here. And of course they'll be there. It's a refuge in the sense that there's some different attitude towards it, but still, you can't run away from that. And even right here this morning, each of us includes many beings. You can't really sit alone, even in your own little grass hut, because whether you're alone or whether you're here, each of us is an expression of parents, family, friends, children, your sixth grade teacher, your great-great-great-grandmother, genetically as part of who you are now, somebody you passed on the street 10 years ago, whoever, everybody you've met, every experience you've

[16:03]

had is part of what we each are right now. So though the hut is small, it includes the entire world. So how do we build a hut? How do we find a space to settle in and be willing to face the entire world? This is the practice that Sekheto is talking about. So he says, a Mahayana bodhisattva trusts without doubt. So in Mahayana Buddhism, the bodhisattva, like Manjushri sitting on the altar there, is a great heroic being dedicated to awakening everyone and awakening together with everyone, doing it together. So Sekheto says that this Mahayana bodhisattva trusts without doubt. The middling or lowly can't help wondering, will this hut perish or not?

[17:05]

Will or not, the original master is present. So we're all middling and lowly sometimes. We all wonder, will our hut perish or not? So someday, even this wonderful zendo that we're sitting in will crumble to dust, hopefully not for a long time. And thanks to the support of the wider sangha of Zen Center, it will be a very long time. But someday, everything, there will be no space here for us to sit together. Maybe it'll be a long time off. I lived in Japan next to a 1,000-year-old temple. Some of those buildings were newer than that, but they were still very old. But even those temples eventually will crumble.

[18:07]

Green Gulch in this practice, and our practice places are very fragile. We have to figure out now at Green Gulch how to get enough water and how to have a good enough septic system for the people who live here to be here. It's a complicated event, building a hut, even if there's nothing of value. So we can't help wondering sometimes, will this hut perish or not? But Sekita says, perishable or not, the original master is present. So how many of you feel the original master sitting in your own space at home or coming to sit here? How do you feel the original master is present? How do we find the original master? How can we see her right here, right now?

[19:09]

Perishable or not, the original master is present. Not dwelling south or north, east or west, firmly based on steadiness, it can't be surpassed. A shining window below the green pines, jade palaces over million towers can't compare with it. So he's describing his grass hut and this phrase, a shining window below the green pines is a kind of conventional phrase for a monk's place of study. So where is it that you find you can study your deepest self? You can study your spiritual truth. That place, perishable or not, is a great treasure. It's priceless. There's nothing of value there, but jade palaces over a million towers cannot compare with it. The song goes on, just sitting with head covered, all things are at rest, thus this mountain monk doesn't understand at all.

[20:11]

So the practice we do here is sometimes called just sitting, meditating, facing the wall, upright, just sitting, observing thoughts and feelings coming and going, enjoying our breathing. He says with head covered. So this is an image of Bodhidharma, the legendary founder of Chan or Zen in China, who sat like this in a cave in northern China, and the pictures of him show this kind of quilt over his head because it was cold. But for all of us, just sitting with head covered, all things are at rest, when we can just sit here, when we can just sit here or in our grass hut at home, wherever, and be present with the original master, all the things of the world can finally just rest. It's not that the problems go away, but we have a space where we can just be there. We don't have to do anything.

[21:11]

We don't have to fix anything. We don't have to solve any problems, just head covered, all things are at rest. Thus this mountain monk doesn't understand at all. That's my favorite line in the song. In thusness, right here, when we're just sitting with head covered, this mountain monk doesn't understand at all. So there's nothing to understand, you know? There's no view or understanding to hold on to. Nothing of value. Just be here. Just be free to be here. So how do we find this space to be present, calm, and caring, without holding on to any understanding, you know? So maybe here at Green Gulch, close to Muir Beach, we could say thus this ocean monk doesn't understand at all. Anyway, whether you're in the mountains or in the city, not to hold on to any understanding.

[22:16]

It doesn't mean we don't have understandings, but, you know, there's no understanding to hold on to, really. And there's a line from a case in the Blue Cliff Record collection of old Zen teaching stories. There's a commentary and there's a line that says, he has his own mountain spirit realm. So I think when we can just sit with head covered, not understanding anything at all, then we have our own mountain spirit realm. This is what I feel this grass hut is about. How do we find this space where we can settle into our own mountain spirit realm, our ocean spirit realm? She has her own ocean spirit realm. Living here, he no longer works to get free.

[23:19]

Who would proudly arrange seats trying to entice guests? Well, of course, we do this every Sunday morning. And you're all here. But I think this is a reminder to us that no matter how many people come here, if it's a large number or a small number, that's not the point. Just to no longer work to get free, just to be present and calm in our sitting in our grass hut. How do we build this grass hut? Turn around the light to shine within. Then just return. The vast inconceivable source can't be faced or turned away from. So I feel like our whole practice is in this one sentence. Turn around the light to shine within. Then just return. So when we find our space in this grass hut, what we do as we're sitting is to turn the light within. Dogen says to take the backward step that turns your light inwardly to illuminate the

[24:22]

self. So just to be present, to turn the light within, to forget about all of that business out there in the world for a little while. And then see what that light is that we turn on ourself. See the original master. How do you find the original master? How do you settle in this calm space where everything is included and yet all things are at rest? Turn around the light to shine within. Then just return. So it's not enough to find your own calmness. It's not enough to find your own center. We have to then just return. So whether you sit for 40 minutes in the morning or come and live at Green Gulch for three months or three years or Tassajara or a place like that, come to a meditation retreat for a day or a week, we still, we go back out. We just return to the everyday, ordinary things of the world.

[25:28]

So this grass hut is not something that, it's not a place to hide. It includes the entire world. And the point of our sitting is that then we just return to the world. And in some way, we're open to the world. So Green Gulch doesn't, you know, shut the gate and say, you know, we're doing this serious meditation here. Don't come in. Sometimes we do that for a week. But still, we have the Sunday mornings and Tassajara has its summer season. And each of us, when we do our meditation, we go back out and go to our jobs and be with our family. So we turn around the light to shine within. Then just return. We have this rhythm to our practice. So just finding the space of calmness, of unity, of emptiness is not enough. That's only half. So there's this rhythm we have. We each have our own rhythm. And it's kind of a natural rhythm, you know. And maybe it's different for each of us. But it includes both sides. It includes just sitting with all things at rest in our grass hut.

[26:35]

And then it includes that, that includes the entire world. And we just return. So Sekito says, meet the ancestral teachers. Be familiar with their instructions. Find grasses to build a hut and don't give up. This don't give up is important, you know. We have to stick to it. It's not something that, you know, we find that space of calmness. We get a glimpse of the original master and then that's it, you know, and we can forget about it. It's something we have to just keep doing. This is about sustainability. How do we continue being in the midst of the world and yet finding this space in our grass hut where we can not give up? Meet the ancestral teachers and be familiar with their instructions. So there's a line in Sekito's other poem in the Harmony of Difference and Sameness. He says, hearing the words, understand the meaning.

[27:41]

Don't set up standards of your own. So fortunately for us, we do have these ancestral teachers. So don't set up standards of your own doesn't mean there aren't any standards. We have guidance, fortunately. We have the Buddhas and the great teachers of all spiritual traditions, you know. Wherever we can find that help to see our original master, those are the ancestral teachers. So we have to meet the ancestral teachers, be familiar with their instructions, buying grasses to build a hut and don't give up. Let go of hundreds of years and relax completely. Open your hands and walk innocent. So it's kind of ironic, isn't it? Not giving up has to do with relaxing completely. So this relax completely, you know, it's kind of nice, you know. All we have to do is relax completely. It's easier to say, isn't it? I remember something that happened in this room.

[28:43]

Well, it was the earlier version of this room because the older Gringold Zendo grass hut did crumple and we had to rebuild this new one. It didn't crumble. We had to take it down because of earthquake safety and so forth. But in the old version of this Zendo, I was sitting, it's about 20 years ago, I was sitting back in the second row back there and there was a visiting teacher almost 20 years ago, a Japanese Rinzai Zen master. And he was sitting right in this corner seat here and I was sitting a little back in the second row and I think Baker Roshi was giving a talk. And I remember seeing this guy and something about the way he was sitting there, this Japanese, old Japanese Zen master, he was relaxed completely. I mean, there was not a muscle that was holding on and you could just see, or I could just see it. It just felt to me like he was just there.

[29:43]

And I was kind of, I could see his side and his back, but he was just completely relaxed. So I don't know if this had to do with his grass hut or if he had a really good masseuse or anyway, but he was really just sitting there and no, not a single muscle holding on anywhere. It was just amazing. I mean, it wasn't amazing to him, he was just there. So this is about just letting go, relax completely, but don't give up. So this is also about not ignoring the world. We relax completely, but the entire world is there. We have to, we can't turn away from all of the troubles and problems of the world. And yet, somehow, we can have this space where the original master is present, where we can relax completely. So thousands of words, myriad interpretations are only to free you from obstructions.

[30:47]

So there are libraries full of Buddhist teachings, you know, and other great spiritual teachings and songs like this and lots of texts and what he's saying in the song is that all of them, all of the interpretations and words and all of these things I've been babbling about are only to free you from obstruction. If you want to know the undying person in the hut, don't separate from this skin bag here and now. So this is the final words, instructions of this song. It's just about being present. All Buddhist teachings are just to let us let go of our conditioning, our obstructions, all the places we're holding on, all the tense muscles, you know, and just relax completely, just to be present, to be with this unconditioned, unborn, true self, this deepest self.

[31:50]

And it means don't separate from this skin bag here and now, this body and mind, this bag of bones, just to truly be our deepest self is the point. So we don't have to become somebody else, you know, it's really good news. We don't have to, you know, reach some great state of mental discipline or, you know, some exalted meditative space, just to really be present with this skin bag here and now. Then the original master is present. So as I said, we don't know the melody, the tunes to the Song of the Grass Hut, you know, how they sang it, how Sekito sang it back then. We just have the words. But he does say to meet the ancestral teachers and be familiar with their instructions.

[32:55]

So I wanted to honor today one of our ancestral songwriters whose 100th birthday was yesterday, George Gershwin. So I thought we should close with a Gershwin song. And this is going to be a little complicated, so bear with me. My teacher, Reb Anderson, likes to close his talks with songs, but I don't have a good voice like Reb, you know? And I don't even have as good a voice as Bob Dylan. Actually, he was in really good voice last night. But anyway, so I have a little, I'm going to get some help from my friends. So we have a chorus of, an ad hoc chorus of Zen George Gershwin singers who are going to help us sing this song. So I wanted to read the lyrics first, and then we'll sing it.

[33:57]

So this is a song, this song I picked that somehow felt to me like it said something about this grass hut, is called I Got Rhythm, do any of you know it? So I hope that you will sing along with us, but I wanted to read the lyrics first, and then we have a special guest appearance also. So the opening I really like, it goes, days can be sunny, with never a sigh, don't need what money can buy. Birds in the trees sing their day full of song, why shouldn't we sing along? I'm chipper all the day, happy with my lot, how do I get that way? Look at what I've got. I got rhythm, I got music, I got, well we're changing it now, it's I got my man or I got my gal, but we're changing it to I got my life, who could ask for anything more? I wanted to change it to we got skin bags, but the chorus overruled me, so we're going

[34:58]

to sing I got rhythm, I got music, I got my life, who could ask for anything more? I got daisies in green pastures, I got my life, who could ask for anything more? Old man trouble, I don't mind him, you won't find him round my door, I got star light, I got sweet dreams, I got my life, who could ask for anything more? Who could ask for anything more? And it turns out that even for people with very good voices, this opening is a little difficult, so we're going to try this. We have a guest appearance, we're going to have the opening part is before the refrain about I got rhythm, we're going to have, Ella Fitzgerald is here today, and, so Martha do you have the tape? Okay so you're, standing in for Ella Fitzgerald, are you going to hold this? Okay. Okay, here we go, and then join in with the chorus.

[36:03]

Trees can be sunny with never a sigh, don't see what money can buy, birds in the trees sing their day full of song, why shouldn't we sing along? I'm a chipper all the day, happy with my lot, how do I get that way, look at what I've got. I got rhythm, I got music, I got my life, who could ask for anything more? I got daisies in green pastures, I got my life, who could ask for anything more?

[37:28]

Oh that trouble, I don't mind him, you won't find him, round my door. I got starlight, I got sweet dreams, I got my life, who could ask for anything more? Who could ask for anything more? Thank you. I'll just close up. So, I just want to dedicate that to all the great Zen songwriters from Sekito to Gershwin to Dillon, and thank you all very much. Ended up with Blowing in the Wind.

[38:35]

He did Tangled Up in Blue and It's All Over Now, Baby Blue, and then a number of the songs from the new album, I'm drawing a blank on the rest of them. Everybody must get stoned, of course he does. So does anybody have any reflections to share, comments, questions? We could just sit here. What do you think of the whole Monica Lewinsky thing? Oh come on. What does anybody else think about it? I think your comment is very appropriate, there's so many other things that need to be handled. Besides the scandal.

[39:36]

Yeah, seems like a big diversion in a lot of ways. Not that we should, I guess, I don't know. I mean, Clinton has finally admitted it and apologized. I don't know if it's compelling, Henry VIII had difficulty divorcing his first wife, and killing a couple of others, really sort of kept the Tudors busy for a while until this book became clean. It's very fascinating, it makes good reading, and I'm very sure they had wonderful music and it was a trip. So surely it would have been very sad if he was like Catherine. You know, pathetic tale, I would think. History of England, never the same. We would have just been taking it to churches. I like the spice of sex. Betrayal and hating, things like that. No, no, it's entertaining, I guess. But it sometimes can be a diversion.

[40:40]

Well, it is a diversion, but I mean, is politics a diversion from your little grass cut? Well, there's also legitimate political concerns and needs and so forth. But yeah, I mean, I appreciate your... The English and the Armada, especially in my time, that was a big deal in those days. We beat Russia, didn't we? Well, I don't know, I think maybe Russia beat itself and we're in the process of beating ourselves up. I'm more concerned with the First Lady's sexual behavior. I won't discuss it here. She's having much more fun than he is, I promise. Inside source. Interesting. I hope so, yeah. That's not scandalous. No, no, she's scandalous. She's a fair game, isn't she? Okay. Okay. Other comments? Turning the light around to shine within, yeah.

[41:47]

So what about that? I don't know. I just... Well, that's good. No understanding at all. I don't know, except that I... I think it's... I'm finding it very difficult to... Marissa, can you help open the door? Excuse me. I'm finding it very difficult to work on myself right now. It is difficult. And that's the problem with diversions, because sometimes, you know... I mean, it's not that we shouldn't... It's not that we should get rid of all diversions. I'm not, you know... Sometimes these things are... Helpful, but... Or at least a relief or a rest or something, but... When they get in the way. So... What is... So what... What is preventing you from just being... From relaxing completely?

[42:52]

Me. Oh, good. Okay. So the point is... The point of the Song of the Grass Hut is just to be with that, to be present with that. Because we make all kinds of judgments about ourselves, and we criticize ourselves, and we feel like we're not doing it. But just to attend, to observe, and to see, and to be aware that we are creating our own problems is a big part of it. So how can you create a space where you can actually be present with that? And take that on, and look at that, and... And it's not about getting rid of the problems. So relaxing completely, you may still have problems. But how do you... The world is full of problems. And there's probably no end of scandals and so forth. But how do you relax completely into... This skin bag, into just being as you are,

[43:56]

and without trying to fix it? The problem is... The samsara, the problem of rebirth, the rat race, is when we try and adjust and manipulate and fix it. So in a way, just saying, OK, these scandals are going on. We can enjoy that. But without getting caught up in it, then you can return to just being present. So in our sitting meditation, thoughts come up, and feelings come up, and all kinds of judgments come up, and feeling like we're doing it right, or we're not doing it right, or I did this wrong. All of the judging mind, which is the way our mind works, is right there. It's included. It's right there. But to just stay sitting upright, to just sit and let all the things rest, doesn't mean that you try and get rid of them or push them away or destroy them. It's just, OK, whatever problems I have, they're there and I can see it. OK, let that go. So you're not trying to solve anything or figure out anything. So this is kind of radical. I mean, we think of meditation and various other things we do

[44:59]

as kind of therapeutic. And in some ways they are, but in a sense, the deeper therapy is just to give yourself the space that I think the Song of Grasshut is talking about, where you're just there. And you're not trying to fix anything. You're not trying to get rid of your problems. You're just there being present and seeing how this body and mind work. So I think that's the recommended practice in this. And of course, there are times when we do need to fix things, and we do need to work on things, and we do need to adjust things. But just to be present is the point. So I don't know if that's helpful. There is this rumor that Bill Clinton is going to resign and retire to a grasshut at Green Gulch and work in the kitchen. But you probably haven't heard the other rumor. He's going to resign and retire to a grasshut at Green Gulch

[46:00]

and work in the guest program making beds in the guest house. Anyway. Other comments? Other songs? Sorry. Yes, hi. I'm glad to hear that you're going to be doing some type of a session related to Christianity, I think it was. That's a great topic. I don't know if I'll be able to attend that, but I was wondering if you could maybe offer a little bit of a sneak preview of that as a reference point to use the grasshut concept to offer some comparisons between, I guess, religion, let's say, or other religions. Yeah, I've been doing these one-day workshops for several years comparing Buddhism and Christianity, and actually I teach at the Berkeley Graduate Theological Union where most of my students where I teach classes in Buddhism are Christian seminarians,

[47:05]

so I've been doing a lot of this. It turns out that, well, we come from a Judeo-Christian culture, so in some sense even the most confirmed Buddhists of us are Christians. But in terms of just being where we're at, we have to process how our English language is, all the religious terms we use we have a context from Western religion for. So to even talk about Buddhism we have to kind of look at how they mix together, and it turns out that there are quite a large number of Christians who still consider themselves very faithful Christians who also do Buddhist practice, and this is becoming more and more common. So anyway, the workshop next Saturday, I'm going to be working with a Methodist minister, Judith Stone, and we usually take a topic, some topic, and we're going to look at how that affects our everyday life,

[48:06]

our everyday spiritual awareness, and what the implications of that are in terms of everyday practice. So this time we're going to look at grace from the Christian side and then Buddhist analogs of that taking refuge or kind of the mutual resonance with nature of zazen and how that is helpful or how we find that in our everyday activity. So the point of these dialogues is just to see how, one thing is to see the similarities because there certainly are. Anybody who's committed or engaged in a spiritual path or way or activity, whether it's Buddhist or Christian or Islam or it doesn't matter, there are some commonalities, and then there are differences too. So without trying to, my own feeling is that without trying to kind of merge them together and make them into the same thing,

[49:07]

we can appreciate our own perspective from seeing another spiritual perspective. So I find it really helpful to study Christianity as a Buddhist, and the other way around I think happens too. In terms of the incompatibilities that might be just as interesting to look at, is there not any kind of showstoppers that would really prevent the total fusion, the total merger of both? Well, again, the point isn't to merge them, and they each have different languages and each have some different approaches. There are places where it gets real sticky. So Buddhism focuses on non-dualism, on not getting caught up in distinctions, and on seeing the spiritual within us. Whereas part of Christianity, at least,

[50:09]

there's this real emphasis on relationship to the divine as other. So this is a real basic difference. If you say Buddhism and Christianity, though, there are many, many, many different Buddhisms. In Christianity, the same. There's everything from Quaker to Baptist to Roman Catholic to Eastern Orthodox. It's all Christian. So then we have to be specific. But then the other problem is that we're all very, many of us, painfully aware of the actual history of how they've manifested socially. Christianity, we know, has carried on witch hunts and so forth. And there's a way in which we have fundamentalism and different divisions in Buddhism, too, but how to see what is the real teaching. So it's not about necessarily the particular historical institutions, but if we try and look at what was the teaching of Jesus

[51:12]

and what was the teaching of Buddha and how is that relevant to us, then I think we find commonalities. We may also find differences, but we can find nourishment either place. Martha. Just when you asked that, I was thinking, there were some things that Buddhist disciples asked and you said you didn't talk about, and they tend to be things that Christianity doesn't. That's true on the theological level, yeah. Buddhism doesn't answer why questions. We don't talk about how the world was created. Actually, in Buddhism, the world wasn't created. The world is endlessly created right now. So theologically, there are lots of differences, actually. If we start talking about the doctrines and the theology, there's lots and lots and lots of differences. But in terms of the practice, there's still some differences. The orientation to self or to, well, even in Christianity, there's still the kingdom of God is within.

[52:13]

So in each side, you can find places that resonate more or less. Yes. My teacher, Thich Nhat Hanh, is basically the social action. Very similar from my background in working in Philadelphia with the American Friends Service Committee, being a whole pacifist thing against the war and everything. There's a fusion there, at least. Yeah, sure. Well, I think that's one of the places where Buddhism has a lot to learn from Christianity. So Christianity maybe has to learn from Buddhism about, can learn from Buddhism about contemplative practices, meditation, about kind of non-judgmental, inclusive attitude, about non-dualism. I think Buddhism has, in the Bodhisattva teachings, this orientation towards helping beings. But there's a part of Christianity, and I think the Quakers and Catholic worker folks really represent that, of commitment to social justice.

[53:14]

And that's a place that hasn't been so developed in Buddhism. It's there, potentially, in the Bodhisattva teachings. So I feel like there are lots of positive developments happening in the conversation between the two, and that's one of the main ones, yeah. My own early Christian experience is Quaker, too, so I appreciate that side of Christianity a lot. Hi. I have an article here by Harvey Cox called Turning East. You probably know better than I do. He talks about, in this particular article, about Sabbath and how Christians and Jews practice just one day a week of being and how, in Buddhism, it's continual. Well, in Buddhism, in Zen, anyway, let's be specific, we emphasize kind of sitting every day, some kind of everyday practice. I think the Sabbath is a wonderful tradition in Judeo-Christianity,

[54:19]

and maybe we need to have more. Maybe in Asian Buddhism they have that more, kind of punctuation spaces. But yeah, it's an interesting place to compare, I think. The whole idea of the Sabbath and taking a rest, I mean, that certainly resonates with relaxing completely. And how do we see the rhythm? So it also has to do with rhythms, the rhythm in the week. We do have some practice rhythm anyway, whether we sit in the morning or whether we come to Green Gulch on Sunday, or however we do that, there's some rhythm to our spiritual practice. So looking at the Sabbath model in Western religion, I think, is worth looking at, yeah. So nobody has any songs they want to sing? Somebody must have a song.

[55:21]

Or just more talking. One of the things about not understanding at all is that when we do have some very wonderful spiritual practice or teaching that we really feel enlivened by and released with and that we really think is wonderful, a wonderful treasure, something very valuable, there's a very natural and positive feeling of wanting to share that. And there are very subtle places where that can become a big problem. One of the things that attracted me to Buddhism, which is the difference is that Buddhism, for the most part, isn't into proselytizing. In fact, sometimes Buddhism is then particularly makes it harder

[56:26]

for people to enter into it, although there are some Buddhist sects that kind of are out on the street trying to get converts. When you have some truth, when you have some practice, that you think is good, it's very easy to hold on to that and make that into something that you want other people to do too. If only all those people would sit zazen or pray this way or whatever. And it's a fairly subtle step to kind of fundamentalist, proselytizing, conversion, kill the heathens. So that's something we have to watch out for. That's why not holding on to some understanding is really important in Buddhism. It's fine to have some insight, it's fine to have some practice, but if we make it into a thing that we want to use to awaken all beings, that's a big problem.

[57:27]

So I've heard that Kenneth Starr's father was a fundamentalist preacher, fire and brimstone preacher, and growing up in his family, all pleasure was considered sinful. So anyway, this is part of the karma along with Clinton's karma that we're dealing with there. Yeah? I myself have a lot of difficulty with the Buddhist states of Thailand. I mean, I studied the past and I had a lot of trouble associating Buddhist country with the corruption there. Of course. And the fighting with the Camel Tigers. Absolutely. We all revere, but in reality, he's fighting to get back his kingdom in a real sense. And he might have a Nobel Peace Prize, but his brother ran the guerrillas for 15 years in the CIA support after they were kicked out of China. So he's no total pacifist. So I see all of them doing everything totally against

[58:30]

the espousing of Buddhist concepts. So I'm not totally impressed with Buddhist manifest or Christianity manifest. Oh, right. I agree with that. I think we should make distinctions, though. The dictators in Burma and Cambodia who have been killing monks recently may call themselves Buddhists, but whether or not they're actually practicing in a way we would recognize, I don't know. So I think when you have institutions, when you have governments, you have the kind of corruption and power stuff that goes on anywhere. And that, of course, is happening now in the Buddhist world. China and India were great Buddhist kingdoms, and at least the Chinese government now is pretty terrible. Anyway, so this is the worldly realm, all of this. Whether it calls itself Buddhist or Christian, this is still the realms worldly people live, the places worldly people live.

[59:31]

And how do we respond to that is the point, and how do we not ignore that and include that in our grasshuts and find a space from which we can return. So I think one of the things that Buddhism has to offer very much to activists, Christian or otherwise, is finding the space of centeredness. Because I was very active in the anti-Vietnam War and movement and a lot of social... The outcome of being peace is by contribution. Yeah, so just finding the space of calmness from which to act non-judgmentally, to respect all the people involved, but to speak out against the ignorance and the harmful activities that they may be doing, changes how we approach dealing with social realms and gives us a space where we're not so susceptible to burnout. Yes?

[60:32]

How do you balance non-judgmentality with activism? Because I love their idealism, the point you're saying, this is wrong, this is right, I'm taking these stances, and you were saying the Vietnam War was wrong. So you're judging. Can you talk to that for me? That's a great point, yeah. So we have to kind of not hold on to any... You know, we do have understandings. And we do make... If we see things, something... You know, it can be in our personal realm too. If we see somebody... If we see one child hitting another child, we might stop them. So how do we... look at what's going on and respond in a way that is appropriate, that we can respond, that may make some strong statement that says it's not right to whatever, to liquidate a whole forest by cutting it down,

[61:35]

or whatever. And yet we can get... The non-judgmental part is not... Maybe it has to do with not getting hung up on blaming or seeing certain people as the enemies or staying open to other perspectives. So how do we understand Bill Clinton's karma and Hillary's karma and Kenneth Starr's karma, and how do we practice forgiveness and understanding? And in any situation, if we get stuck on some point of view and are not willing to hear, not open to hear the complexities of it, that's a problem. So some of us who were against the American involvement in Vietnam assumed that if the North Vietnamese would just win the war, that that would solve everything. No. So that's an extreme example. So these are the places where all the people live,

[62:40]

and there are all of these adjustments that need to be made. So I think coming back to that space of just sitting with all things at rest and coming back again and again and finding our own rhythm of coming back to that, and then how do we respond to what's going on? Anyway, I don't have a set answer. It's just we have to kind of work with it. Yes, first. Could it be also that you can take a stand when you think something is wrong, but at the same time acknowledging that what you think is wrong you also have in yourself, that when you don't raise yourself above other people and point fingers and say, they have this, and I'm better, and I'm condemning it, but if you do it, it's the way you do it that you acknowledge that you have that in yourself too. Exactly. That you have all of this stuff

[63:42]

that you don't like in yourself too, and you have to accept it and work with it. That non-judgmental, non-condemnation of other people, acknowledging that you have it in yourself, I think takes it to a different level of accepting at the same time. Yeah, so when we speak out about something, not thinking of the other person as separate and different. Or the enemy. Or the enemy. So whatever Bill Clinton's done, because I know about Bill Clinton, I'm capable of doing that too. Whatever Kenneth Starr is doing, I'm capable of doing that too. Coming from that place then, we can try to talk about, well, how do we respond? Yes? I think it's really true that people are the most incensed about what their own shadows are. Yes. Which is what I think you're saying. And they're not acknowledging that they have that part of us

[64:44]

and there's room for lots of things and it's not a black and white world. It's the black and white thinking and the investment in a cause, that kind of judgment, is an attachment. An investment is an attachment. There's such a fine line. We care with passion about certain things. Vietnam or whatever it is. Homeless, whatever it might be. And we care with passion about things. But if we step over that line and we're invested, then it is an attachment. Right. And also, we do have attachments. Part of it is that we have to acknowledge our attachments when we see them. So how do we acknowledge or confess our attachments and confess our points of view and not get caught by it, not hold on to any understanding, and yet act when it seems appropriate? So it's impossible to, you know, to find some perfect understanding

[65:45]

or perfect method or way of dealing with these complexities. But coming back and seeing this skin bag, seeing my own feelings and thoughts, seeing my own attachments and just recognizing them and admitting them and confessing them to myself, first of all, is a way of then not getting caught up in harming and responding as best we can. And sometimes there's nothing you can do. Yes? I think we can't escape judgment. We're living in a world where there are things right and things wrong, and we have to act according to this. But what's important, I find, is if we find something wrong and we try to stop it and to make it right, that we always feel right. We're dealing with human beings. We should open up the chance of change whilst we're stopping something which is wrong.

[66:46]

So that the other person or the other system has a chance to reflect about this wrongdoing and to open up the chance for rightness and change. I think we can't escape judgment. Yeah, so that's... There are things which are right and there are things which are wrong, and we have to act according to this. And if we make use of certain passivity we know nothing is obvious. Yeah, so I'm not talking about passivity or total moral relativism. I mean, there is good conduct and there is harmful conduct. And so we do have to make distinctions. But to see, OK, this is this judgment, and then not to make... and not to, you know, say, this is an evil person. To see, somebody talked about not getting stuck in black and whites. To see the complexity, I think, is very important, very helpful. So it's very rare that there's a black and white, you know. And as you say, if we can recognize what's happening but then address the person

[67:47]

who is acting in some way that we think is not so good, that's really the most effective way. It's not so easy, but the most effective way to stop these forests being cut down in Northern California would be to actually persuade the people who own that company to stop doing logging that way, you know. So how do we do that? I don't know. I don't have easy answers. Martha? So, I agree with what you're saying. I mean, that's the way our mind works. We're judgmental, and the precepts of I love to avoid all evil and embrace all good. We get into condemnation and praise and censure and gain and loss. I want to ask you, what is compassion? I think compassion is what somebody over here said, to see that that's something that's part of us. All of it. It doesn't mean that we don't have to recognize the judgments we make

[68:48]

and not recognize the attachments we have, but to not, therefore, say that, well, this group of people, because they're bad, we're going to put them in concentration camps. Compassion is to not put people in concentration camps or the equivalent. To allow everybody to have their own grass hut. To encourage that, in fact, is compassion. And to be compassionate and forgiving to yourself, especially, because it has to start with being compassionate and forgiving to yourself. So, a lot of people, I think, are most judgmental and most harsh on themselves. Maybe there's some people who direct all their harshness and judgmentalism out, too. Maybe they need to hear, to see, to be given some stern lesson in the results and effects of their karma.

[69:49]

So there are consequences of what we do. And it may mean that you have to go to prison or get impeached or whatever, but to also be compassionate to ourselves. I was thinking Nelson Mandela would be a world historical figure to embody what you're talking about. Yes, Nelson Mandela. There are many of them, so I think these great figures and also people we know in our own life who, in some ways, act this, walk that walk, that's very helpful, too. These are the ancestral teachers who we have to be guided by. And they're out there, lots of them. Yes? I would like to explore a little bit what you were using in your song, this metaphor, pick up your hat, but nothing is of value. Uh-huh. I don't know whether I really understand this. When I translate, for me, picking up your hat, that means always try, don't give up,

[70:50]

to become a human being. Right. That's the destiny of your life. Just to become a human being is to build the hut, yeah. But how would it translate for me? On the other hand, then saying, oh, but regret, nothing is of value. It sounds very difficult to understand. I don't know how you... It can be translated literally as where I don't have any valuables. It's like there's no, you know, there's nothing there that's like a, you know, treasure that you're kind of locking up in a vault. So the model of the grass hut, I mean. And there have been, actually, in China and Japan, meditators and writers and artists who actually had these little simple huts and lived that way and really didn't have anything of value, literally. But I think metaphorically, for us, what it means is that we don't, you know, take some possessions, even spiritual possessions, and kind of lock them in a vault and kind of guard them and set out, you know, kind of patrols to police the area

[71:51]

and make sure nobody can get in. And, you know, we do tend to do that sometimes. We do find things that we think are of value and then we want to hold onto them and we make that into a kind of trap for ourselves by holding onto those things. So to build a grass hut where we don't have some valuable that we're guarding and protecting and setting out, you know, police dogs to keep everybody out, you know. I think it's more like that, that whatever we have that's of value, we find a way to share. So it doesn't mean that you can't have material possessions, but how do you relate to those material possessions? How do you find a way to share some of your material possession or wealth or whatever? It doesn't mean that you have to live like a homeless person. For some people maybe it does mean that.

[72:52]

I don't know. But the point is not to take something, take some treasure and put it in a vault and live your life based on guarding that. That's what I would say about it. I don't know. But I'm not sure I understand it completely either. I don't think there's no values. I think there are standards. We have the ancestral teachers to show us what is of value. There are things that are, there are teachings, there are possessions, maybe there are things that are of value, but it's more like how do we hold them? How do we, do we build a hut that is a fortress or do we build a hut that may be perishable? Or where we can feel the original master, whether it's perishable or not.

[73:54]

But it's a good question. Yes? Also, to set things up as valuable is to just step right back into dualism where this is valuable and that's not. So we do have things that are of value, but it's more like to be open about what's of value. Something that may seem not very valuable may become, be very helpful in a certain situation. Or may be valuable to someone else. So if we judge by the standard of the realms worldly people live, so-called, then we get caught in the usual view of commodities. Whereas if we see everything as a treasure, as a gift, everything as a value, then we can enter a realm where we are sharing

[74:59]

and where the things that I, Suki Roshi used to say, that these glasses are just, you know, they're not really mine, I'm just borrowing them and you're all kindly giving them to me, letting me use them. So how do we treat the world with that kind of consideration where it's not like I'm locking up something to keep it for myself, but where we have our share of the world and we understand that what it is that's valuable is shifting. And we're open to seeing other forms of value. Other forms of value. The American who most embodies your talking speech is surely Thoreau. Yes. He had a little cabin in his thing. But he was an abolitionist and surely he wouldn't have kept it from us. Right. Oh, he had terrific values. Yeah, Thoreau is a perfect model of the grass hut. He definitely built a grass hut. And his little hut in Walden, you know, didn't last very long either, but the original master was present.

[76:00]

So it's not that there are no values. It's not that there's no standards. When Sekito says in the Sanda Kai, don't set up standards on your own, it doesn't mean that there's no standards. There are standards. There are values. There are things of value. There is meaning in the world. But how do we really find that? How do we stay open to seeing value and merit and meaning in a new way? How do we take care of it? It doesn't mean that we don't take care of what's valuable, but to hold on to it and lock it away is not taking care of it. Deirdre. Oh, I have two thoughts. One was I thought of Yo-Kai. I'm just gonna put it out there. Yes. He's a classic example of the grass hut. He lived in this little shack. Do you all know who he is? He was a Japanese Soto Zen monk, great poet, great calligrapher. One night he was sitting in his room and he didn't have anything of value, literally.

[77:04]

I mean he had a little blanket and he was sitting in his room writing poetry looking at the moon and a burglar broke in. The robber looked around and couldn't find anything valuable to take and so Yo-Kai said, here, take this blanket. And the guy just grabbed it and left and Yo-Kai wrote a poem about how I wish I could have given him the moon. So this is a very exalted example of this but there are actually quite a few poets and artists and meditators in China, some of whom we know about in Chinese and Japanese history who actually followed this kind of model pretty literally. But as I said, oh, and one of the things I forgot to mention is this model of the 10-foot square hut is also important in the Zen tradition. In China and Japan, the abbot's quarters are supposed to be this 10-foot square hut and still in Japan, the abbot's quarters are called the hojo which means 10-foot square. Of course, some of the abbots

[78:07]

have had much larger quarters but the abbots themselves are also referred to as hojosan, after this 10-foot square hut but it's also the model of the dokusan room or the teacher's room that we go into. So this model's been used in different ways but given the origins with the Malakirti and the origins of being in the world but not caught by the world, I think it's a kind of teaching for us of how do we find our way to be in the world. It's not about rejecting the world or ignoring the world or kind of hiding away in some mountains so we don't have to deal with all of the problems. It's how do we find our own center from which we can respond more effectively to the problems of the world and also just to enjoy and even apart from that, to find the space where we can just enjoy being present. That changes the world.

[79:08]

That does something in and of itself. You had something else? Yes. This is something I'm thinking about a lot right now and I'm kind of partially horrified in my own mind but the situation in Kosovo which is very bad right now where people are being burned out of their homes and killed and living in the mountains with winter coming on and it's sort of a, it's Bosnia Part II with all the same actors and there's a liberation guerrilla army in Kosovo that's trying to fight the Yugoslav army and losing and originally Kosovo had a president who was non-violent

[80:10]

who is now irrelevant to the whole situation and Milosevic basically, the president of Serbia can do what he wants to do because he has so much control and he owns all the media so the Serbian people don't really know what's going on. And so the solution people are talking about now is more NATO bombs which is what happened in Bosnia which is actually what kind of helped to close down the Bosnian situation and stop what was going on there. I normally do not think that bombing countries is a good way to solve problems but I really feel like, I don't know, I don't know what would have stopped what was happening in Bosnia and I don't know what will prevent the suffering of Kosovo but the NATO bombing in Bosnia seemed to help and that's kind of appalling but true.

[81:12]

I just can't find a place to rest with that myself not even when I can do anything at this point. I think just to thank you for giving us the report I think just to hear about it and keep it in our hearts I don't know that it helps. I mean sometimes there's nothing that one can do. And I don't think any, I don't know, it seems like during World War II pacifism, even though in some ways I believe in pacifism that there needed to be military opposition to the German Reich. So I don't know that there's any blanket response. It's, I think being willing to just hear about these horrors and I mean what's happening in Burma now is also just as horrible and there are other places in the world like this. Just to be willing to hear about it I think is important

[82:18]

and to hold that, to include that, I don't know. Does anybody have any response to that? The fellow in the back had his hand up. Let me give him a chance. I saw a tape on training horses and the horse has got, it's a visitor. These horses are horribly hard to train. They've got a horrible attitude with it. This guy comes in to beat this horse and it's a troop tape and this guy has the ability to be able to kind of harm the horse. He makes it tough for the horse to do the wrong thing. He makes it easy for the horse to do the right thing. In this case, I kind of feel like the lowest position is this bad horse. You've got to make it tough for him to do the wrong thing. And I think in a bigger scale, maybe bonding is appropriate. In this limited circumstance, he steers him the right way, which is pretty peaceful. And he's been able to be able to head him off at one point in the path, then we can do it again. And it's just a training method, I believe. You need to harmonize with him, understand what makes him tick, and then steer him in the proper direction because he knows the right way to go.

[83:19]

He knows he's wrong and he has to be corrected. I would disagree. I mean, like Chomsky in describing East Timor for years was the only person talking about it. But then someone got a Nobel Peace Prize, a bishop and an activist, Indonesia collapsed, and they're now making a resolution without violence on our part. And maybe you feel more comfortable killing people than I do, but I think you don't realize what you're advocating in using a bomb. And that's what you said, so let's discuss. Bob, I lived in Germany. I lived in Germany after the war, and we destroyed all of Germany. And that was pretty overkill for Hitler. He kept shoving it. Yes. There's a part of me that brings me here on Sundays or to my father's.

[84:21]

And then I learned about grasshoppers. And I decided it's a good thing you can do throughout the week. And then I get into my week, and I say, well, it's time to do my grasshopper. And my other part of me says, no, you don't have time for that. And I did it on a Sunday. Yes, I know that one. What's going on with that? I don't mean to be so dramatic. No, I think that's, that the world does call us, and we have many obligations and family and work and so forth. What the song of the, so coming back to the song of the grasshopper and just how do we find our own practice place in this complicated world where there's horrors and no easy answers. I think just to find a space, practically speaking, to find a space in your house or somewhere around your house where you can just take some time each day. I think every day, doing it every day is really important, just to have that space and just sitting there with all things at rest. And you may be thinking about Kosovo

[85:22]

or worrying about what you have to do today. There are lots of horrors and cruelty in the world and thinking about this attachment and that attachment, but just, regardless of all that, to have the space where you can just be there. And maybe you include all of that, but still, it's just, you're just sitting. All things are at rest. And to have some space, having a physical space, I think, is really important. It can be a very small corner of one room and you have a cushion to sit on and maybe some kind of altar. It could be just a pine cone on a shelf. I don't know. Whatever represents something of the sacred to you. But you have a space where you have, that's your grass hut. That's your space that you will return to. And even if it's just 10 minutes every day, whether it's in the morning or the evening, to just take that time to just be there. That's what I think building this sacred space is about.

[86:24]

Building this grass hut. And it's real, I think, my own experience is that having an everyday quality to it is really important. You can sit for 40 minutes, great, but if you've got to take the kids to school or you have to get to work or whatever it is, just 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, whatever, where you just give yourself the space to take this particular period of time and just be there with whatever comes up. It's not about matter of having the right kind of mental space. It's just to put your body there, to sit up right as best you can given the limitations of your own skin bag and just to be there and to allow yourself that rest. So that's what I'd recommend. Yes? I've been involved in this dance for probably 20 years now,

[87:25]

being attached and not attached. Being in the world and not other. Sometimes I'm fully in the world and I'm suffering. So I kind of go back and forth. That's the rhythm. We've got rhythm. What seems to happen is when I get very actively engaged and the more attached I am, I start to suffer more and then I come back. Right. Just back and forth. Right. Amen. I get dizzy. We get dizzy, yeah. So to take that space to not give up and relax completely and let yourself get dizzy and just keep sitting and keep dancing. So just to continue to try and find your own grass hut, your own space where you can be present and observing yourself

[88:30]

and to see what you just described. I mean, that's testimony. And it's not that there's some perfect, there's no understanding that you're trying to reach. There's no perfect solution to this. We don't need a final solution. Just to be present in the middle of the dance, to observe the ways in which you get caught up in the world, to see the ways in which you come back and settle into your grass hut, whatever it is, not to get caught up in that either. And how do you find that balance? So the harmonizing of difference and sameness, the harmonizing of the realm of the multiplicities of the world, the university of the world, all the distinctions, and the emptiness of each breath, the practice is about that harmonizing, and it's endless. And if you ever reach some point where it feels like you're in perfect balance, your friend next door or somebody is going to bring you their problems. Yeah, so the point is just the dance, to enjoy the dance.

[89:35]

Get into the process. See that this is endless and it's beautiful. And we're not doing it alone either. You can't do it alone. That we're all doing this together and that there is support and help. There are friends, spiritual friends, guides, models, ancestral teachers all over the place. And find nourishment where you can and help nourish others. I think most people feel that there isn't a dance like that. That they're not aware of the dance. This is the worldly people it talks about when it says places, worldly people there, realms, worldly people love. Of course, we're also all worldly people, right? So we also can forget, all of us, and do forget. But when we come back and we remember about this space, this grass hut. Any last comments or questions?

[90:37]

We have a little bit of time before lunch. Hi Michelle. I guess this is a variation on that theme. For the last couple of weeks I've been savoring something that feels like the beginning. The song that you shared. Just feeling really, being able to savor every day, puttering around because I recently left the job. Relaxed completely. At the same time there's a voice that is still saying you're not being productive enough. And I've been thinking a lot about how easy it is to relax completely when you don't have the demands of our particular culture. Demands that everything is done immediately. Well, I think the point is to relax completely in the world. Right. It's hard. I don't remember getting to feel like before

[91:41]

not realizing that I wasn't there. It's like when you find the room, you realize how out of the room you were. And I was even thinking about, even if I were to come to the Zen Center and follow the schedule, I remember following schedules and feeling you've got to hurry up and get this done before you know it. You've got to do it. Yeah, I've got to hurry up and get there so I can relax completely. Well, you've got to get the gala swept before everybody comes for service. Sure. Yeah, that's right. It's more testimony. Thank you. Yeah, you should all be congratulated because you're all somehow, by the virtue of the fact that you're here, you're involved in this dance already. So congratulations. Thank you. Welcome. This is your life.

[92:42]

Before I forget, I know you won't be able to see it so well back there, but I have a photograph of the rock where Shaky Joe built his hut that somebody took in China. It's still there. If you want to come up afterwards and see it.

[92:59]

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