You know it. I don't know where they published it. Well, maybe I can tell. If you have it, then we may do one. Yeah. I have read it already. I can put it there. I was going to have it read in the factory sometime. Because in Germany, we need a German text. Or in Italy, an Italian text. But nobody can read it. So therefore, Fr. Gregory, number nine. responsories after readings at vigils, and perhaps short responsories after readings at lords and vespers. Therefore, the principle of responsories. and here again we were fighting to retain them because this Australian archbishop and somebody else insisted this has no meaning only for a choir office because the greater far out great majority of priests cannot say it together, wish to put it away and we said no also if you say it alone in modern

[01:04]

situation it has a very great significance to meditate about the readings as you are doing it but I have impression that perhaps according to the principles of the Roman office also we the monks could insist more in the response of this therefore after every reading and after Lords and Vespers do you have it? no, but you have the hymns hymns would be a kind of responsorium in the new liturgia horarum they made this awful work that every responsorium is really corresponding to the content of the reading it's no more as formerly that you have a responsorium which has nothing to do with the reading but goes on in his own way, telling the history of the kings. Meanwhile, we are reading a prophet or a father.

[02:07]

Now, you don't have a responsorium which would not correspond to the text. And therefore, they arranged them, they changed them, they made them so that all these mistakes which somebody, where possible, avoided. An excellent work made by one Benedictine monk of Praglia, Father, I forgot the name, okay, Pelagius Vicentine. Good man. For my feeling, I would suggest to retain your responsibilities and you have also responsibilities who are corresponding to the reading, more or less, at least in this week. At least in vigils. Do you think that the Church should have it under every reading? After every reading?

[03:10]

And therefore if you are introducing in Sunday Vigil's Fathers, also after the Fathers reading, a responsorium. And perhaps combining it with silence. What did we say yesterday? First the silence and then perhaps concluding it with the responsorium. You don't do the other way. You have immediately the respondorium and then the silence. Both is possible. What do you think? I think I would rather have silence than read. I think so. How did you feel in the community? about the response. We didn't have any response for years. But you introduced it again. Yeah. OK. You see? What man was really pushing for it, I think?

[04:12]

I don't wish to know the name, but nevertheless, I have the feeling. I have the feeling with time you are realizing that also your office was very nicely made. Nevertheless, a little bit impoverished, it is good to go on to take again these elements for which we were fighting to retain them. And we succeeded. And I'm very sorry that now Benedict would not do what we were fighting for. But we have to fight for something that means something to people, I think, I feel. And I think, therefore, I would say, Responsorium, well elected as you did it now in this week, say something to people, to the people. Because I feel that we have so many words in the office that you come back and bring again those words that were the same. No, no, no. You are right, you have some words in the office.

[05:14]

But you need words. Yeah, I mean, too many. We need words, that's for sure. You reduce the office so powerfully. Instead of 200 sounds every week, you have perhaps, let me see, 100 sounds every week. Therefore, and you reduce so many elements, but the elements which are manifest as valid, as good, as spiritually fruitful during thousand and more years, you cannot reduce them. And here again, I would say, we have discussed all these problems. Don't do too much. We need silence to meditate and so on. We discussed, and after all that, we were convincing that we must retain responsibilities which are well made and are coronal.

[06:18]

crowning and fulfilling and making perfect our silence, our meditative prayer. And I think now, in Rome, the central authority, this paterna correctio, bodily correction, is existing in this structure. You can choose, you can take it, you can make them yourself, but you can no more go back after all these questions and say, we don't take that. If you say many words, I would say, you have too many psalms, you have too many readings. And again, I would say, Verbum Christi habetet in vubis abundanto, the Word of Christ must dwell in your midst in a very rich way. And so, with all these words, that is, ruminate, ruminating after. You do it freely, in silence, and then a collector is brought together.

[07:21]

A conclusion, a last word, very short. And you must remember, you had 12 responsorias in every vigil, and the responsoria brevia in Lourdes and Thespos, and the Romans had them still in the minor hours. And you took away all that thing, and they are introducing one, two, every day. That's not too much. One thing I feel myself, I like, I want a responsibility after Lords and Vespers, but these responsibilities are very short, where people can come in. You don't have them, you don't have them. No, I mean, you know, in the old times, we're really for less, for the liturgical year, not for the reading. The response rates were enough for the media. Yes. Individuals. Oh, yeah. Individuals. Yeah. But the other algorithm. No, you are right. Yes. Myself, I would like to see that. But you see, individuals, it doesn't mean anything to me, because we have many lines. We have the same thing that was just said, and the tone is awful, first of all.

[08:23]

And I must say, here, you can judge. You are right. I cannot judge, because the YouTube was known as this protagonist. But if the tone is awful, then take another. I would say, careful, you could make abstraction from the tone, chose a better melody. For example, as we had it formerly, at least in my monastery, we had a simple way for Christmas. Very nice, very calling, very good melody. We use it also in Rome, in San Ganselmo, very splendid form. Or you can take another form. You can take what you like to do. But after the reading, real instruction, after your silent prayer, to take a little song, a good recitation where you are repeating things because one of the most fundamental principles of meditatio, of meditation, as our father prior, Emmanuel von Zeverdus, for many years already is insisting, is to repeat, to repeat the same word, Domine Adagio ando Mephistina, Domine Adagio ando Mephistina, Domine Adagio ando Mephistina, like the Jesus prayer,

[09:39]

and all these things, and according to a modern novel written in Germany, as modern propaganda is doing, reclaim is doing it, in the great cities, the most excellent teeth paste cream is this here. And every minute it comes back, until you, after a night of having seen and heard this reclaim about teeth cream, you are convinced it's the only one you can use. And here is the same. You hear the word of God always again, always again. You heard it in this reading of Esther. You are meditating about it. And then again, domine in te speravi non confunda in aeternum. Non confunda in aeternum. Take it with me. So I am fighting. I am, you are free. I am fighting for the spirit, the pragmatic content of this element. And with time, remaining, all your liberty, this fraterna correxio of a central authority will insist in a certain structure where the responsoria of the readings will be seen.

[10:50]

And then it inculcates the horror in the Latin for these responses. Ah, yes. In the Instituto Generalis in Liturgia Moralum, you find a marvelous explication of all these ideas. In regard to melodies. Please. Melodies. No, not yet. Not yet. We were, this was one of our fundamental problems. What must we do? What can we do? Can we, must we take responsoria only where are existing classic melodies? or because the number of classic melodies is too short, sometimes too difficult, must we make new responsoria, and let the difficulty to compose melodies to the next centuries, and we chose the last possibility. We make good responsoria, and you, the masters of melody, of song, must find the corresponding, not bad, but good melodies.

[11:51]

You are right, it's a very simple... This time, therefore, yeah, this time, this time, this time, and it may be really also, it is a good idea to sing the Responsoria as you are doing it, this dark melody in the arms of the choir is a little bit strange. But here, the musical man must try to find a way. In a certain way, also it is right, as we are saying sometimes in Rome, if you cannot sing a hymn, in a certain way it would be better to let him away. Also I don't agree, because you can't proclaim also a poesy of Goethe without singing it. It's a powerful recitation, a good recitation, yes. So perhaps we have exposed a problem.

[13:03]

You can meditate about it and you can go on. Our music band are very busy. You are busy? On music, yes. Therefore we must have patience. But sometimes I know in Germany there are excellent choir directors, lay people who are very unhappy because they are feeling that now with the active participation of the faithful they have nothing anymore to do. Everyone has much to do. They are invited to invent melodies. every day here, every day again, because of all these new creations, something perhaps can remain if God gives the inspiration. Period of creativity. No.

[14:04]

Okay. And then the next is somehow arrange to have the psalms assigned to terse, which is not now publicly celebrated, assigned to some other office. And I think that is quite necessary. You don't say the terse publicly, you don't say it anymore, therefore you must put the psalms of terse as, for example, Psalm 118. the first four or eight bars. Do you say them? The thing was, when we made the office the last time, there was a question of what do we do with search. You have the office, but for some reason you wouldn't say it. Other people felt it would be best just to say you aren't going to have the office and just forget the tourist. Oh, and there's no difficulty. Finding an option for having the office of tourist but never saying.

[15:15]

And in the prime of his life, exactly. We were talking about having moments of madness. We didn't know how often we were going to do that. But I am sure that in the days when we had moments of madness, we would have thirst. But we did in the entire world the same when we suppressed the Prime. For half a year, for a year in the communities, the sound of the Prime did not, was, were not said. But then we realized we must say, with time, the sound of the President and other private goods made this arrangement provisoriously. to save the Psalms of the Prime during the minor hours, during the week and so on. Therefore, you must not do it immediately, but with time you must find a way. And here, Fr. Gregory speaks immediately about another possibility.

[16:18]

If the Mass on Memorias and Filias is simplified, how about having a community with the exception of the first celebrant, con-celebrants, acolytes, or Christians, who celebrate the day before the Mass. and he is more or less suggesting a combination of terce and mince immediately before you are beginning the mince as preparation the people staying in the choir and now according to this suggestion of yesterday or two days ago also the people, the concelebrants who are already in the choir could say could begin with the sounds of the bells and then without any chapter oration immediately go on with the oration of the Mass. regarding, that is the principle given in the Instructio Generalis to the divine office in Roman liturgy today. You must, you can arrange things so that you are beginning with the hymn of the Terths and the Psalms, or with the introit of the Mass and the Psalms.

[17:26]

In every case, you must save the Psalms, but you are free to arrange it. And after this beginning, you can choose hymn or introit, can change also from day to day. And after the three Psalms, you go on, with the mass, without penitential act, immediately with the oration. Can you do the same thing with words? Yes, yes. Yes, quite possible. I don't like it because the Lord is too important. You are destroying laws and destroying mass, but with the tells it's quite possible. And it would be also so possible that the celebrant is coming only at the end of the psalm. Saying dominoes for Biscol, the Lord be with you, let us pray. Or you wish to do so. So for the entire problem to bring the Psalms in another place would be eliminated. So the problem can't be taken away? Then you can't take it away. It eliminates the problem of the penitential rate.

[18:28]

Very interesting. And in the Sunday you say Thursday in the morning at 8 or 9 o'clock and you are beginning the penitential rate once a week with the paper. In the Sunday you could say Thursday in the morning at 8 o'clock or 9 o'clock. and then go away, and begin the mess of the penitential right once a week, then it is real power, also for the faithful. in a certain way you are right also he speaks about this problem yes but here there is a real problem to get the psalms in you the idea is the thematic idea is not formalism you must say the entire psalterium which is the book of christ in which According to St. Augustine, you hear the voice of Christ singing, lamenting, praising, and therefore the entire Psalterion, you must say then, and because you wish to praise God with the Psalms to this hour, 7.30, formally it is quite possible to do it.

[19:45]

Yeah, but it's not because we want to have Turks, it's because we want to get to Samsic. Yes. No, I only say Samsic, I didn't want to get Turks. But have you another possibility to say Turks? Please. Alright, you have different possibilities. Therefore, I don't insist in this, if you prefer that, you can do it so too. We had a good principle before, you know, that when there was a mass at a certain hour, the hour was eliminated. Yes, but I don't think that this principle is good. We never followed this principle. We have to, too, in Maria Lark. We have to think. Then that's the whole thing, because mass is almost always fixed. I enjoy that. But you never, we asked in a joint interview, we had a... We have this principle in Maria Lark. We said, five years ago, instead to say Thers, we say Mass.

[20:49]

And when we moved the Mass on the evening, we forgot the Thers. In the wintertime, we have Mass at 8. For example, you could do so. And here, there is a big problem. He says, he speaks also about Lords. And Lord's aftermath to Thanksgiving, I don't, it's not right. And also he takes it away. But Lord's must, although he himself is realizing, Lord's must be set at sunrise. Did you, when, according to your timetable, do you say, Lord, the sun will rise? Only, no, when I came in the September. It was marvelous, you said the Lord's precisely in the time when the sun was rising. But during the entire summer, the sun was already very high on heaven when you said at seven o'clock, the Lord's, because... We had Lord's at six. During the summer? Yeah.

[21:49]

Also, this is Daylight Saving Time, which is actually our Bible. Nevertheless, you see, at least now, and also perhaps in September, in August, I don't know when, with the receiving time, you make compromises. Therefore, I would say... Sometimes, say, not quite on the time of sunrise or at nine o'clock, you can change a little bit. But nevertheless, if you find the possibility to say, if you are agreeing with, as we said yesterday, the third after chapter, then you are free. You can say the laws. separately, then the mass is perhaps more better. To contaminate, to join hours and mass is always only the last salvation. So far as possible, I would prefer not to do it.

[22:50]

But nevertheless, I would say if you cannot say then, for certain reasons after the chapter, And then to save the psalms, to find a compromise, therefore, after loss, then together with the psalms, it would not be impossible. What would you say, Joseph? Well, let me go to the start of the point. Some people probably distribute it with too much. And what comes up then, what surfaces the 3D preview, is we're simply doing this in a routine way to get it done. And that becomes the reason, that begins to take over and contaminate your prayer. We're just simply going through the reason. That's the corruption, not the fact that there's terse. Well. But the corruption is that you let yourself get into that frame of mind where you say, I'll just do this.

[23:51]

Well, I was one who would have gone into that, but I have to admit that you tend to bounce on ashes and duck. You just slide under it, and you're not really into it. Could it be a lack of education? into an appreciation of the Psalms and prayer life. That could be the core of it, too. Well, you've got a wide variety of different ream of different Psalms and so on and so forth, but I would say myself I could go through the Psalms, but I just realized it. You are right, a 7 o'clock loss, 7.30, and mess is a little bit much. Also, you are right, this is sick of education and so on. Therefore, I would not say you say it only to have said it. You are liking the psalms, you are expressing yourself in the psalms. Nevertheless, you must also attend to this necessity to divide psalms in a convenient way really through the day.

[24:57]

Otherwise, the danger is that it becomes a mechanism. You know, it's something to leave in the principle of sanctifying the hours. This means that at a certain period during the day, you stop and that's the principle. No, I think we would all agree to the principle of sanctifying the hour. But the question is, what is our normal breakdown of the day? The Romans happen to be behind on four-hour periods of watches, but certainly ours isn't these days. Ours is much more morning, noon and evening work. I think everybody would agree with the principle to sanctify the hours, but then this puts in an artificial... Sanctify? No, at 10 o'clock they have a break, in town at 10 o'clock they have a break, at 3 o'clock they have a break, and they end working at 5. But they stop for 15 minutes. And I think, for me, in the spiritual life, that's how I see it.

[26:02]

I don't see in the number of some or over 150 that this is justified. But I just, you know, just don't think that. In a certain way, you are right. The sanctification of hours is a very fundamental principle and in all our deliberations, Bonini said it all still in this meeting in February, the first principle is to say the hours in the right time. And he then said to us, Bishop Meyer, who is insisting in the traditional number of hours, Please, Your Excellency, it is your competence in the congregation of religious, because this congregation is existing in these minor hours, how can you do it in the real time, that the community is not forced to say the three hours that we did it formally, three hours at the same time, never it will be allowed. You must separate the hours, but how can you do it?

[27:04]

Here is the problem. Therefore, in a certain way, also Maya is right, the conclusion of religion is right, too. Say, the entire Psalter is a spiritual principle, and we must retain it, and we must combine it with this due insistence of the Council after all this corruption of the last century, the hours must be set on the right time. And today, this principle is the first principle. but you must combine the fifties or whatever, you must say also the psalms. A certain compromise is possible, but not the corruption we had in the European system of the last century. And perhaps, therefore, to say the psalms after the chapter is the better solution. Then you are free, lots, short interval, sometimes too short, and it's the mass. We've tried several ways of having that mass and laws combination. Most people know the best way, if you put them together, was laws after mass. Nobody was happy with anything.

[28:05]

You had sometimes laws after mass. For us now here, it worked out in a more permanent way than others. I mean, let's say nobody was happy with anything. The situation we have now, that most people don't really want to have the logs fully bent over. It's better, it's better. Here, now I haven't supported it, but it seems it's not too bad. Here again, nobody's exactly happy with it. But I think if we had, well anyway, so that's what we've done, we've tried to, most people here in this monastery prefer the whole office. But here you're arguing with time. And there's nothing which, it's very irritating to do things on a totally artificial basis. We're simply running the prayer. We have all, the whole rest of your life to live here. I mean, you know, there's the non-flow part of your life. And if, well, if people are having to work and can't come, and all of a sudden... And that's exaggerated.

[29:09]

Didn't do the work to... Yeah, the work to... It just doesn't want to stop. Why? That's the question in my mind. Why don't people know when it comes to sex? But they come. Many people not become aware of those things. I understand that myself. Yeah, their interest seems to be someplace else. That's the answer I find. Would it be proper, say, if we couldn't work out another hour in our horarium to take the psalms that would be said at terse, like, say, the psalms from 118, and instead of saying at none, the same psalms, or it said the same psalms, Yes, you are right. For example, if you cannot say these psalms before the mass or not after the chapter, the most easy solution would be to say these psalms in the minor hours.

[30:17]

Because you are repeating in four days the same psalms, you must not do that. No difficulty, no difficulty. Therefore, you have three possibilities. You can say the thirds in the best time after the chapter. You can say the minor, not so good solution before the mass, combining it with the mass. And the last, and also a good solution, would be to arrange, as Fr. Gregory also is proposing, the Psalms during the minor hours, without any difficulty. Therefore, not saying the thirds, because it's too difficult, and you could say, instead of thirds, you say the mass, then sixth and none. We had another arrangement where we never repeated the same psalms in the middle barrels. Oh yes, OK. It's quite possible. Here you must choose what is the best. And I think the best is to choose between two possibilities after the chapter or in the minor hours, six and nine.

[31:22]

And I replied to that because you convert little hours. No, no, no. You have Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, and Saturday, the same sounds. You say them only once, and you take the stairs, So for the first parts of 118 and 119, 120, on the number of days, I'm very sure. Mathematically, it was okay, but in practice, I didn't like it. No? Only three? The sounds that we used for the days, in our singing of them, their form and their format was different than what you were singing. Then, if this reason is valid, then I would again suggest to take the time after chapter. Just a moment. If you had church with mass, do you always take the hymn for church?

[32:31]

No, you must not. You can take away the hymn and instead the hymn begin with the canticle. So, the Roman breviary is providing. combination of minor hours with the Mass, 6th or 9th, when you are saying Mass, or hymn and psalms, or canticle and psalms, and then oration and the reading of the Mass, nothing else. And the combination of lords was seen so, canticle or hymn of the hour, the psalms going on with the Mass, and the benedictors after communion. And at least for us here, that's always been a mess. Whenever we're trying to put laws into subversion, it's always been a mess. You are right. Here, there is the provision of the Roman brevity. For me, that is not good, because it's destroying everything.

[33:33]

can do it. They've done it well there. They're like their laws, mass culmination. But they're a small community. There are never any guests, preachers, consultants, things like this. All these factors make a difference for you. Oh, you are right. Therefore, you must exclude this possibility. In the Roman breviary, kind to introduce the lay people too into the... They wish, but practically. particularly, not so often. For example, there are monasteries like Etal, with their big gymnasium, college. The professors, the fathers, must be free at seven o'clock. Therefore, they must combine the morning hour, one morning hour, with the mass. To have the entire community there, to be finished at seven. because they must take the breakfast and they must prepare themselves to begin at eight o'clock. And the community wishes to pray together, wishes to sing together, wishes to celebrate Eucharist together, but at the same time they must work in the school.

[34:41]

And therefore I say I must combine poor people, but you don't need that. You are free. Therefore, don't take this... One of the basic principles of the 12 planes, actually, was not to have a navigation of the kinds of... Therefore, you are free to arrange things according to the ideal. Therefore, laws alone, myths alone, and therefore, in a certain way, also, not to combine those with the myths, but try to find another way. Therefore, not to follow here Father Gary. I'm timid. It's always the most difficult thing in the monasteries. But if you have just the psalms. He said if the argument with the man is unique, the psalms, tenor, tenor, they're more catholic. They're more catholic and could be the infant's tenor.

[35:45]

Oh yes. So for, if you wish to do it in the mass, then also you are a little bit very early. You are, all are staying in the choir, perhaps also the celebrant, I don't know. And then you are beginning with the canticle, and when the priest comes, and you are continuing with the small three psalms, and you are going on before Ishi. And the readings of them, please. We'll see. I wonder if we have it at 8.30. This is the first time in many years that we've had it at 7.30. Yeah, I remember, you had it later. But for walking, it's better you are... If you say Mass at 8.30, 8.30, then you're finishing after 9.00.

[36:45]

You are beginning your walk more or less before 10 o'clock. Two hours. In the winter is what we do, but like you here, summers ago, really the morning is very, very short. Very short. There would be a possibility to eat at one o'clock, because the afternoon is very, very long. Not much people have. Not so here, all right. Is it necessary to work on morning time during the summertime? It's not necessary that people would work on the morning. The community wishes to have longer time in the summer to work. Well, some need it, not everyone. Not all, yeah. But also for example, for a student, sometimes you need three hours to come. You need an hour to go on. Then you must immediately, when you have begun, you must finish.

[37:49]

It's difficult. That's also some of the things that have been mentioned here. This is difficult to know because different people work different. You are right. [...] And so you're wasting the time all over the place because everything is so short, you can't do anything. So again, I would say your actual timetable for SOMO seems to me to be very good. But Navalis, you must find a place to say these psalms. You cannot forget for an entire half a year six very important psalms. It's not spiritual, I would say.

[38:52]

And you have so many good possibilities to introduce it in a very convenient way, not formalistically. or in the minor hours, 6th and 2nd, or the last possibility, not so good, I think, together with Thomas. But you must find one possibility, and there is nothing perfect in this world. But you like the satyrion, you like the hours. Therefore, everyone, no, everyone, yes, everyone must make a sacrifice. There's also an idea of a community. We were fighting in Mariana for half a year last year to restitute the mass on the morning because to ask so many things. But we were voting, and the small majority vote for the evening. No, we must, yes, OK, we are doing it. It's not so bad.

[39:53]

Which office do we have at Mariana? We have only five. Morning hour, daytime hour, Vespers. Complete. And I say five because morning hour practically is a combination of rivers and lords. I'll say practically only four. Theoretically, we couldn't say to Rome, we have five. And here again, the council is insisting in five hours for the entire world. How can the monks do not so much? Two cardinal hours, Lourdes and Vespers. Another very important hour, Vigils for us, or Hora Lectionis. A minor hour, Compline. Minimum. And nevertheless, the congregation of religious, therefore also a certain tendency is to, that monks at least would, must, could retain these minor hours which are known already by the Atulian.

[40:56]

Second century. Yes, in Italy, in Monte Cassino, evidently. And there are still monasteries in France and in Germany, I don't know, but in Italy and France who are saying the entire office, with the exception of Rome, respects only the Monte Cassino. Kava too, two years ago. They had vigils, large, prime, mass. Altogether? Altogether. No, that is a thing which must be avoided. It is forbidden. They cannot retain it. It was impossible. You are right. And Bongini will never allow that. If you say the entire office according to St. Benedict in this form, no. But it's not necessary.

[41:57]

We, Maria Laack, in 50 until 60, set the entire office according to the rule every hour separately. That is so strange. We came to a time where we set the entire office in time. Because the people today say it's too much to say 200 sounds in a week. In a certain way it is right. You cannot digest it. Here is the difficulty for modern people. I did not feel so. I said it already to somebody. My health is very good. I am not tired after the Sunday vigil. But many of us said, Fr. Urban Böhm, the abbot, after the Sunday vigil I am finished. And I can understand that. twelve psalms, and three canticles, and the readings, and the laws. Therefore, from four to one hour and a half, and nothing before, only Benedictus' song.

[43:02]

All the other things, very quickly, not quickly, currently, sir. No, it's not good. It's better today, that you have time. Also, we have time now to read, to meditate. We have this marvellous time after five o'clock until seven, it's a miracle, where nobody can hinder you. Silence, perfect silence. But, you know, You cannot omit the psalms. You can omit the tells, yes, it's true. Well, there is another thing which, you know, and I don't just say that. I was listening to what Watson and I was thinking. There's no, nothing forbids someone here from saying the terms. Nothing? Nobody is forbidden to say terms.

[44:02]

No, no, no, no, no. Nobody is forbidden to say hafa. No, no, no. that that's not privately it's it's also it's therefore in a certain the uh... if the community cds he don't see it does speak to be cdc we don't see company but we are suggesting to uh... c the psalms but i was really simply we would like to be a seeing it privately that would be a solution, but not a perfect solution. The perfect solution would be that we are saying it, as St. Benedict says it, in little groups. You've heard this a thousand times, too. Would it be St. Benedict's rule or would it be mine? Yes, the fundamental problem of the Mass. But nevertheless, to say Mass and to say in two weeks the entire Psalter is not true.

[45:03]

not too much, not too much. Again, I would say we are exaggerating. We don't wish to pray in a certain way. It's very strange. And you said it's too much. Last year, in San Tanselmo, or two years ago, this Belgian exegete Dupont gave a marvellous conference about Matthew 6. If you are praying, don't multiply the words, insisting. It is not right to take this text against our office. Quite different generalitaria. You have the Psalms, which are, as the Rosary, as the Jesus Prayer, a repetition of words to move in the Word of Christ in the Spirit. And you have petitions Sometimes, where you must say, Father, have mercy on me, you don't need to repeat it.

[46:06]

Give the health to my mother, or to my brother, and to my nephew, and niece, and so on. He is speaking about this repetition of magic words. He is speaking about this ostentation in which you wish to be seen, but he is not speaking in no way against communitarian prayer, against a long communitarian prayer. And the entire tradition of Christian people did never correspond to this false interpretation of Matthew 6, saying the monks in the desert said the entire psalm in every day. Maybe an exaggeration, but nevertheless, they're praying the entire day and entire night. And today still in Jesus prayer, it is for all as an ideal. The monks of the Mount Athos, they are praying the entire day during the rock. St. Benedict separated a little bit work and prayer. He introduced our modern feeling in a certain way, but a certain mass of prayer is necessary.

[47:12]

Santerio. Also for a festum. The only exception is they don't have a first festival. But the structure of Solemnitas and Feasts in the Orphans is quite the same. Therefore, according to our Benedictine tradition, three readings and three nocturnes, Tadeum, Gospel. And the Solemnities and Feasts are so few in the New Order, it is more difficult to do that. All the tertia classes are now memoria, and for memoria it is quite the ferial office. We were reading at oration, nothing else. But Festum, Apostle, and some piece of Our Lady as nativitas and presentation and so on. Lawrence, perhaps. Not many, few.

[48:14]

Apostle, especially. Therefore, I would suggest if time also we have to get it solved. But no, perhaps, I don't know. If you wish to continue? He says, on fees I would certainly limit the number of psalms to two nocturnes, or two of three psalms each, but specially selected. Yeah, again, I would not agree. Not two nocturnes, but three. But nevertheless, you are able, there is a liberty to limit the number of psalms, but the number must not be from the weekday, but must be selected for feasts, especially from the common or from proper feast. And he says then, at present, these important offices have very little character of the feast, which surely should be apparent.

[49:18]

He is quite right. the norm of the new office. So Lentifers and Feast. And the Feast days, or Feast day in technical meaning, Festum, like an Apostle of Matthew, or Exaltation of the Cross, not the weekday psalms, but special psalms with special invitatorium, hymn, and special readings too. against our father rafael who in his feast today who have his wonderful disposition of the entire two years cycle is reading some book of the kings in the feast of an apostle and our father abbas says what is this book of king today where somebody was killed was killed a saint or some adulterium is even Okay, we must read that according to St. Benedict, but not in the Feast of the Apostles, and so on. Therefore, here, there must be some arrangements.

[50:21]

For the canticles of lords, no, then, surely it would be desirable on feasts, as well on Sundays and solemnities, to select special psalms for lords and bishops, instead of choosing fertile psalms, as I believe is done at present. For the canticle at laws on fees, I suggest using the text we used to have on Amber Saturdays instead of the long canticle of the three youths. You are free. You can change. Also the Roman office is changing. Sometimes the canticle of trium purorum, sometimes the other. But I would insist more on the canticle of vigils, which are specifically benedictine. The Roman office does not know it. In the Roman office, in the appendix, for all the people who wish to have a longer vigil, but it's not following the rule of St.

[51:24]

Benedict, they introduce our canticles. In the Roman office, it is possible to prolong, how do you say, the Hora Lectionis to a real vigil with three cantica. and Gospel as we are doing it, Antedilum and Gospel. Therefore, they are following us, we must at least retain it for our will. And not every day, but on Sundays, on Solemnities as Pentecost, and on feast days as Nativity of Our Lady and Apostles. Okay. Would it not be better to bow throughout the text, praise the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit both now and forever, Amen, rather than bowing up at the end of the first half of this text? Therefore, for the entire formula, not only for the three persons, but also both now and forever, bowing.

[52:28]

You can do that. Because you are doing it for the other ending in the imitatorium, for each unending. This end, both now and forever, is so short. It's very strange. In Jyotirmayi, they are changing at least with three or four possibilities to say it is a psychology. You have only two, praise the Father and the age and ending. Very minor point in any case. No, the very minor point is another. How about, O Lord open my lips once only at opening of vigils. Then he continues, I am not against all repetitions. They can be extremely helpful, but I am not sure that this one is so.

[53:36]

A very minor point. But here I have a good answer. Because it's such a minor point, why not do what Saint Benedict was suggesting? But sometimes you must change to change. I think that's one of the things that everybody is so weary of, that anybody who makes a good suggestion, how does that work? We are playing, I can see also, in a certain sense, you're commissioned to play the same problem. But we here are playing with the fact that we don't really have a good knowledge of liturgy, historically or theologically. So all of us feel at a certain point, if something gets through, what would you insist on? We get to say, well, it's just kind of my opinion of what I feel, therefore, I won't insist. But also, you don't pay too much attention to anybody else, because that's just what he wants, and it's not coming up. But of course, there is both this thing of what is the present. There are some repetitions which are only medieval, only Frankish German, because they wish to have this powerful glory.

[54:44]

For example, It is a melody for sous-super-mi-do-mi-de-so-co-do-mi-lo-co-do-mi. We are three times higher. That is medieval, Frankish German. Not a repetition itself, but it's growing. You can take it away. But a repetition in C is an excellent element, fundamental element of meditation. Saint Benedict is not Frankish German. He's an old Roman. And therefore, to take away any repetition with the citation of Matthew 6 is not right. Therefore, I would say let us retain it. Fifteenth, Lucianarium before Vespers on all Saturdays, but not every day, would be appropriate.

[55:52]

Lucianarium. And this suggestion is not meant to exclude the use of incense as known as at present on Sundays and Solemnities. However, it seems to me a light is called for a Saturday Vespers. And here again, I would say formally, in every monastery we had lights at Vespers. It was a last relic of the Lucianarium. Therefore, to introduce this at least for Saturday would be marvelous and also Sunday. Lucenarium. And so far as I understood him, also speaking with him, Lucenarium to put one candle solemnly there. I said then also two candles, why not? But not on the altar, no, on the sides. One candle before the altar and two candles not on the altar, it remains not touched, but on both sides. as they are doing it now, or in St.

[56:55]

Meinrad, where they, in a powerful way, make the intuits for Festbos. I had the impression the entire community is running after the Easter candle, Lucianarium. In a certain way, very well. But perhaps we must not do so. Anna, what do you think about the incense at the Vespers? It pleases very much to me. Also, I must say, that is not Old Roman, it's Frankish German, Middle Age. But here again, not everything from the Middle Ages is false. And you admit in your right, in a very simple and discreet way, the incense which we are using powerfully by a priest of Cap, who is incensing the altar, as during the Mass.

[57:56]

And formerly the entire choir was incensed. You remember that, the old times. What did you say now? What are we doing? We, in our old-fashioned monasteries, we are incensing the entire altar during the Magnificat. in the priest, in parliaments, is incensing it. And formally, not only the altar, but also the celebrants and the abbot and the entire community, only the priest, nothing else, nobody else. Therefore, we were incensed, the deacon came, and you must bow. Then, inviting the next. And so, the entire choir. And the novices, only one. And the brothers only. I want to change nothing else, no cult of persons. Please. In that, though, it doesn't seem to me that I never saw this before.

[59:07]

I mean, this kind of thing. We changed it perhaps before the concert already, but near to 55 or 60 in the simplification. You mean Vespers now. I'm talking about Vespers. Vespers, Vespers, Vespers, yes, yes. I never saw. I always thought that the incensing was only made sense when you get sense of the altar. We don't get sense of the altar. No, you are right. You don't do it anymore because it's unnecessary. But per se, the origin of the incense in Vespers and also in the Mass is a symbolization of the words of the Psalms, dirigato domine, oratio mea sicur in scensum in conspecto tuo. and instead to incense the altar, which is in no way necessary. Why? Why must we incense the altar during the fespos? You made very conveniently in a new symbolism, until now not used in the Roman church, but very well introduced in Montevideo, why not?

[60:12]

This wonderful idea that during the fespos, like incense, my oration is nice, good, you are free to do that. If you are able to understand symbolism, you could say it is in no way corresponding to the gospel. Incense was a parfum given to the pontiff that he, during his difficult task, must not suffer so much by this terrible smell of the Roman people. That was the meaning of the incense when it was introduced, perhaps from, I don't know, from Byzantine custom from the court in the seventh 8th century. And later on, for this practical reason, a good parfum in this assembly, or the Cologne or some kind of that, you attend this idea to symbolize and then also the idea to incense the persons.

[61:20]

It is an act of honor. The prince, the emperor, the king, the president must be incensed. Yeah, I mean, don't do it in Mass. I would do it awkwardly, but just an incense, a stone, and then know that reverence, I think, with deep eyes. And people should know up there. No, here was the idea the altar is Christ. Therefore, also here is a certain spiritual idea then. But nevertheless, there is enough to do it in the Mass, where the altar is really used. But for the spiritual office of Vespers, you don't need the altar. So for here, I would, more or less, the author outside. If you had a dictionary, would you put the light at the lectern? Also, yes, you can put it in a very, for example, together with the picture of the icon you sometimes are putting there. If we're going to use the Bible, we're going to go read a little Bible, which might make no sense. But then you are introducing a new symbolism, the Bible, and you can do that, yes. Yeah, I mean, you know, within a range of words, you know, and really use... But the idea of Father Gregory is to introduce it for a Lucianarium, and he has the meaning, we, at the end of the day, are introducing light, symbol of Christ, according to the Greek phospherinon kind of light.

[62:39]

as the Ambrosian liturgy has it still today. It is a good thing to give a certain solemnity to the satanic response. I would agree with him. But I would not add too many other symbolisms. One candle or two candles before the altar, next to the altar, staying inside, and then not omit the incense. It's very nice. You do it only on Sunday. Therefore, you have Saturday the Lucianarium. One of these monasteries, Concepcion, I don't know where, or Gethsemane, has a real Lucianarium. The text, I forgot where, is in Milan, today still. I forget our hymn, Son of the Desert. Does it have anything to do with that?

[63:43]

Because the Price in the Desert, they had the ritual, and it was done during the hymn. Because the hymn is a little bit light, yes. The hymn of Saturday is a very nice hymn where the element of light is in. And still, the last here, the hymnal, compiled hegemony is quite fine, but consists of several volumes, that's true. I understand that at the Genesee Abbey, they are having one volume hymnal compiled hegemony from the multi-volume set used there. I shall ask Father Baldwin of hegemony to send me a copy. We might be able to enlarge our repertoire of hymns and improve it. Again, this is the Cantor's idea, and so a sensitive matter.

[64:44]

Okay, but I also would suggest take from this really excellent collection, the best. Not Genesis, not Gethsemane, but from this collection made already by men with taste, Pythagoras and others, this Anglican, German, and all the American hymns, the best, and also the translation from the Latin. but at least to have hymns, good hymns. What is that collection called? Hymnal. Hymnal. Oh, the one against Semenik. They don't have the collection at all. Yes, yes. From the oldest theatrical tradition, but everything. Many Germans, and I think the English know, and many Episcopalians and so on, Lutherans, Karzowicz, some very sentimental, too sentimental, and in the same way they liked to sing at least in the last strove a second or third voice, also sometimes very nice.

[65:54]

And so we finish this work of Father, this suggestion of Father Gregory. And then, more or less, we could finish. And if you like, next week I could reassume these ideas as Father Martin was inviting me to explain again, all together, and then main principles of this Concilium Ad Sequentem Constitutionem, of the new Roman liturgy, and of our necessity to compose, we are called to compose our office in a certain common structure and every community in its own way.

[66:56]

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