Good evening, everyone. For the drama talk this evening, I would like to read a poem by Norman Fisher and say a little bit about it. So Norman Fisher is a former abbot of San Francisco Zen Center. He was one of the abbots at Green Gulch Farm when I lived there after returning from Japan in the early 90s. He's now head of, well, as a former abbot, a senior dharma teacher at San Francisco Zen Center, but also head of Everyday Zen Foundation, which is a collection of groups, actually, mostly on the West Coast, but some further east. And Norman is also a very well-recognized poet. So this poem, I heard him read, and I had a chance to talk with him a couple weeks ago

[01:04]

at the Soto Zen Buddhist Association in Oregon that I attended, of American Soto Zen Dharma teachers. So it's an interesting poem, and it's a long poem. I'm going to read it and say a little bit about it, and want to hear your comments or responses to it. And actually, Norman is probably going to be here next year in early June to give a Monday Night Dharma talk and do a poetry reading. Norman, actually, for a lot of his dharma talks, he reads the talks, and that's not something I can actually do. I think a lot of Protestant ministers write out their talks beforehand and read them. So usually I just have a few notes and improvise from them. But I'm going to read tonight. He doesn't always read his talks, but I've seen him do that a number of times. Anyway, this is a long poem, sort of a prose poem, from his new book of poetry called The

[02:08]

Strugglers. And this is the only poem in a section called Recognition. I'm not sure if that's exactly the name of the poem or not. So I'm going to read it and then say a little bit, and then we'll talk about it. So many people to worry about. We can never come to the end of worrying about people. So many people worrying about people. We can never come to the end of people worrying about people, worrying about people. So many worried people, we worry about them. We do not come to the end of worrying about them. We worry, they worry, we worry about them, they worry about us. They worry, we worry, we do not come to the end of this. They worry, we worry, we worry about them, people, people, people, people.

[03:10]

They are not abstract. They do not come to an end. They come to an end. They come to the end. They come to their end. They come to our end. They never come to the end of worrying about them. We never come to the end of worrying about them when they are ending and coming to the end of their ending. So many endings, so many people, [...] such worry of them, such worry about them, they worry, we worry, they never come to the end, we worry about them, ever, there is never an end to our worry about people worrying about people. So many people to worry about us, such we, such us, such them, such worry, such people, so many people, each one being one, each one being them, each another, each other and non-other than her, me, I, them,

[04:11]

they, we, us, them, them and we, such people, such worry, so many worries we can worry about, these, those, our, their, people, [...] there's never any end to it, we worry about them, ever, never, forever, they, we, such worry about them is not abstract, they are facing us, we see their faces and worry about them, there's no end to worrying about their faces, facing our faces, facing them, we worry about them facing us, they worry about us, us and we and them and they and us and them, worrying about their faces facing them, their faces facing us, worrying about us facing them, there's no end to faces, no end to facing faces, faces facing faces, being a face, being faces, worrying about faces in

[05:18]

consequence of that, to face, being face, being face, to face, being face, to face, to face, being faces, facing faces, it's worry, ever worry, never worry, with no end to it, how could there be an end to it? We worry about their faces that are not abstract, living faces, facing faces, living, facing the faces in the living aliveness, expressions, animations, fluid, fragmented, fictive, fulminating, dancing faces, faces fanning out amid faces, thick-skinned faces, thin-skinned faces, dark faces, light faces, light and dark faces, faces of darkness, faces of light, forever faces, ever faces, never faces, we worry about them, they are worried about us, it's not abstract,

[06:22]

it's not abstract, we worry about them, forever going on worrying about them, how could there be an end to this worry about the faces of them, worry about the faces of us, or the faces of our, or their, or the faces of it, or the faces of now and then, their faces, worrying about faces, facing faces, worried about their faces, hands, their feet, their worry, their feelings, their concerned faces, facing concerned faces, animated with worry for their faces, facing them, worried are concerned. We worry about them. We never stop worrying about them. We worry, they worry, they go on, we go on. They fall and get up, they get up and fall again. We worry, we fall and get up, we get up and fall again. They fall, we fall, they get up, we get up. We fall together, we fall separately. We fall, we get up. They fall, they get up. This goes

[07:27]

on, it doesn't end. So many people falling, getting up, having faces, being concerned, being alive, being animated, worrying about them, worried about us, going on, never ending. We worry about them. Their feet move, their hands grasp. Our feet move, our hands grasp. Our faces face their faces. Faces always facing faces. Faces ongoing. Eyes open and shut. We never come to the end of worrying about them. We worry about their faces, their hands, their feet. There's no end to them, to us, no end to everyone, no end to no one, no end to nobody, no end to everybody. We worry and we worry and we worry about people, [...]

[08:34]

about them, about us. They worry about us. We worry about them. We endlessly worry about nobody. We worry about everybody. We worry about their bodies, their faces, their hands, their feet, their feelings, their thoughts. They're being everybody and nobody and anybody, worrying about everybody and nobody and anybody. We worry and we worry and we worry, there's no end to everybody worrying about everybody, and somebody worrying about somebody, and anybody worrying about anybody, and nobody worrying about nobody. No end to it at all. No end all to end. No end to all at all. No end to anybody and everybody, and somebody and nobody, and their faces and their hands and their feet and their feelings and their voices and their thoughts. No end to their thinking. There is an end and all, no end at all. We face their faces and they

[09:42]

face our faces. We, our us, they, their them, their faces, our faces, their them, our us. Us and them facing faces. People's faces facing people's faces. Any face facing any face. One's face facing another face. The other's face facing another's face. All faces facing all faces. Each face facing each face. They worry, we worry. They face, we face. They grasp, we grasp. They fall down, we fall down. They get up, we get up. We fall down. No end to ending. No beginning to beginning. No beginning to ending. No ending to beginning. There's no beginning. No ending. Ending begins when beginning ends. Beginning ends when ending begins. There's no end, no beginning, no beginning or end to facing. No beginning, no end to

[10:47]

falling. No beginning, no end to grasping. No to nobody, to everybody, to anybody, to somebody. There's no beginning and no end to our worry about nobody and everybody and somebody and anybody. We worry about them. And then worry about them. And then worry about them after that. Their faces, their feelings and thoughts, their bodies, their faces, their fates, their destinies, their futures, their pasts, their pain, their pleasure, their seeing, hearing, tasting, their smelling, their smell, our smell, their distances, their intimacy, their loves, their hates, our loves, our hates, our falling down and getting up, our hair, our face, our wind, our sun, our street, the end of our street, their street, the outskirts

[11:52]

of the city, their city, our city, the mountain, the stream, the cave, the grotto, the field, the meadow, the grave. There's no end to this worrying about anybody falling down, then getting up, then going on, then not going on. There's somebody becoming anybody, everybody becoming somebody or anybody, anybody becoming nobody, each face, every face, faces facing faces to worry, to grasp, to fall down, to arise, sun, moon, stars, space, time. No end to the beginning of the ending of them, no end, no beginning, no name, no designation, no star, no explosion,

[12:57]

no sun, no moon. There's then the consequences of worrying about anybody. There's then the following worry, the subsequent worry, the worry because of the worry, the wondering about the worry, worried words, worried feelings, worried faces, worry, worried about worry, thick-skinned worry, thin-skinned worry, bright worry, gem-like worry, abstract worry, mountain worry, stream worry, galaxy worry, time worry, space worry, worry about people, people, people, facing people, worried people. They then fall, they rise, they worry. There's no end to their worry. We worry about them. They worry about us. Their faces face our faces, our faces face their faces, and anybody and

[14:01]

everybody, and everything, and anyone, and no one, and one one, and two one, and all, and and, and none, and not, and nine, and ninety, and ninety-nine, and one hundred, and one hundred and one. There's no end to this. There's no beginning. It goes on repeating. It repeats in each face, everyone's face, anyone's face, someone's face, no one's face. The repeating in the face of another is the face, is the repeating, is the face repeating the face. The face knowing the face is repeating the face. In the face, the knowing of the face being repeating the face, there's no end to worried concern, to grasping and shuffling, gem-like. In the brightness, no end to brightness.

[15:08]

In the longing, no end to longing. In hearing, in seeing, in facing, in touching, no end to seeing, hearing, facing, touching, smelling, being touched, heard, seen, smelt, tasted. In the tasting, no end to tasting, touching, hearing, smelling, being anybody and everybody, and somebody and nobody. It's not abstract. It repeats. The worry repeats and goes on repeating. It never ends. It's never. It's ever. It's forever. It's five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten ever. It's bright. It's tall. It's short. It's green. It's blue. It's yellow.

[16:16]

It's cool. It's warm. It's everyone worrying about everyone. Anyone worrying about anyone. No one worrying about no one. One worrying about two. Ten worrying about ten. Stars worried about stars. Moons worried about moons. Skies worried about skies. Mountains worried about mountains. How could it ever end? There's no end to this worry about everyone. No end to this worry about someone. No end to this worry about anyone. No end to this worry about no one. This worry about people, [...] people worrying about people, people, people, people. There will never

[17:19]

be an end to worrying about people. Faces facing faces, worrying about faces. No end to facing. No end to hearing and seeing. No end to thinking and speaking and writing. No sense to it. No end to it. Senses with no sense to them. Thoughts with no thought in them. Words with no words in them. Voices with no voices in them. Endings with no end to them. There is no end to them. So I wanted to say just a little bit about this, about this word, and then hear your comments. So this reflects in some ways the two sides of, basic sides of Buddha's teaching, compassion and wisdom. So you could think about it that way.

[18:22]

Of course, in addition to anything else, I think it's a very funny poem. It kind of starts with compassion. So he talks about people worrying about people who are worrying about people. This is the Bodhisattva way, caring about people. So he doesn't use that word, but I hear that in there. Caring about people, caring that people care about people. And then he keeps including people, [...] so many people. And one of our basic precepts is to benefit all beings. Bodhisattva includes all beings. So of course, there is everybody worrying about anybody and anybody worrying about everybody and worrying about the people who are worrying about the people. So this basic worry, this caring about people is the compassion of Bodhisattvas. But the wisdom side is also there in a way that's, you know, maybe more subtle, but kind of like it. It's in that wide perspective on our caring, even in the middle of worrying

[19:30]

about people worrying about people. He sees that there's no end to this worry and this caring. And this wider sense, this spaciousness around everybody worrying about anybody, worrying about somebody or nobody or, you know, there's some insight that's expressed there. Well, one thing is the faces, facing faces. So in Buddhism and Zen particularly, we talk about meeting face to face. And of course, we face the wall and the wall faces us. And he says, they are facing us. We see their faces and worry about them. There's no end to worrying about their faces facing our faces. But anyway, this face to face is an important aspect of, we could sometimes say, warm hand to warm hand. This is how we express this practice with each other. In the Bodhisattva way, in our practice, it's not that there's no anxiety. That's not a word he uses, but he's talking about that.

[20:33]

The Bodhisattva way includes the sense of spaciousness, but it also includes worrying. So, you know, the Bodhisattva way is not that old Mad Magazine slogan, What Me Worry, or, you know, the song, Don't Worry, Be Happy. Well, that's okay. There's a time for that, maybe. But the Bodhisattvas care about people who care about people. So maybe, you know, in our practice, some anxiety is important, some slight worry, some concern. Also, we should worry about not being overcome by our worry, or by somebody else's worry, or somebody else being overcome by our worry, about their worry, about our worry, and so on. Okay. So, I'm not sure what else to say about this, but I'm interested in any responses you have. So please, what are your worries?

[21:39]

Jim? My reaction is not so much to practice as to perform. Good. Aside from the fact that I hear echoes of Richard Stein in there. Sure. It makes me think of hall mirrors. Oh, it makes you think of? A hall mirror. Yes, indeed. I think it was just generating other images, generating images, et cetera. And perhaps from that point of view, the overall connection,

[22:56]

maybe not quite so much connection as insight, I'm thinking of Indra's map. Yeah, good. Where there are nodes, jewels at each intersection, and each one reflects all the others. Yes. And all the jewels, maybe, are worrying about the jewels that are worrying about the other jewels. Well, they all have them in mind, certainly. Yes, and there's also, you mentioned form, there's also emptiness here. The emptiness of these forms of worry about people, people, people, people. Thank you, Jim. Yes. So the first thing that I thought of was a radical interdependence through suffering, right?

[24:03]

So despite the fact that we're all worrying about each other all the time, it's what kind of brings us together. And that's sort of this, to acknowledge that is to be mindful and simultaneously to be compassionate. Right. I also thought that the use of repetition in the poem was really interesting because it's sort of derived, you can derive from the phenomenal quality of the worry itself. Yes. And you actually feel that, and you can reflect on times when you were worrying, because it's kind of like an erotic, like constant stress that you put on yourself through an idea. Right. And yes, so I thought that definitely the sort of use of language. And then the, I don't know, I read something that said that in Zen Buddhism, you're supposed to, like, with a koan especially, you're supposed to,

[25:06]

you're not just supposed to like intellectualize about, like, you know, just this cognition, but it's not a riddle you're supposed to figure out. It's supposed to be something where you embody the truth of both mind and body. Right. And that's definitely something that I felt through this poem. But I also wanted to ask a question about language. Okay. And its relation to practice and suffering. So, I mean, in certain forms of Buddhism, the goal is to, like, liberate yourself from suffering. Right. But it seems like, as far as what the sort of message you're trying to get across with the poem was that, you know, it's not, you're not supposed to break away from suffering. It's like compassionate to suffer with others. Yes. So this is the Mahayana way to suffer together with all and to awaken together with all. And that we are deeply interconnected, as Jim was talking about. Yeah. So what's your question, Tim? Basically, is that, yeah, I mean, is there a way to distance yourself from the use?

[26:15]

Like, the idea is that, like, language is imperfect, but reality is perfect, this sort of concept. So if we were to stop using language, would we stop suffering? Or is there, like, is that a goal? Or is that a... Yeah. So this is a big issue in Zen. That we sit in silence because anything we say is, misses. And yet, so Katagiri Roshi has two books. One is called Remain in Silence. The other is You Have to Say Something. So actually, next month, Sunday, November 18th, we're having a guest speaker. Stephen Hine, who's one of the foremost academic scholar of Dogen, is going to be talking about Dogen's poetry and also the use of poetry in Zen. So this is a significant issue. Part of one aspect of... One problem, we could say, is that there's this slogan attributed

[27:18]

to our Chinese founder, Bodhidharma, that we are talking about meeting mind-to-mind, going beyond words and letters. But going beyond words and letters means to... doesn't mean being anti-intellectual or not reading. It has been understood that way. But Norman is an example of a Zen teacher who's also a poet. And actually, there have been many, many Zen teachers who are great poets. So yeah, this is one interesting effort to express something through language. But also, I wondered, and I kind of worried, if there was anybody worrying if this would ever end. So he's playing with our worry.

[28:20]

And yet, he cares about this worry. I'm sure he worries about people worrying about people who worry about people. Oh, Gesser, did you have any thoughts? Oh, no. I mean, I was just actually using... Responses? Well, I thought it was kind of ironic that I remember that quote from Bodhidharma. The first time I heard it was from Norman. He translated it, you know, a teaching outside of words and letters and the scriptures. But he translated mind as pointing directly to the human heart. Yes. And I thought that was silly. Yes. Funny, so many years later, I'm thinking, but we're still talking about Norman and words and worrying. Yeah, I worry about Norman. Worrying about people. And he worries about us. And he's going to come to visit us. I thought it was interesting he did use the word care until later in the poem. Did he use it at all? Okay, I missed it then. And I think it's interesting, actually. Because I think he was talking about worrying.

[29:22]

Okay. That's my take on it. But I thought it was a tour de force of following the stream to the source. Yes. Starting with the word and seeing how this thing that could be so upsetting is so profound and connected. You know, a little bit like the Andrew Smith thing, but really fun. Yes. If someone wants, I can read it again. Alex. Going kind of off the last point, my initial response is that the worrying was, like, it didn't initially make me think of compassion. It felt like a compulsive worry. Yes. Worries upon worries upon worries upon worries. There's no end to it. There's no way to step back from it and see what it really means. You're right. That side is definitely. It kind of began in this place of compulsiveness. And so my question is, because I agree, worrying about other people

[30:27]

in maybe a compassionate way is a key part of Buddhism or whatever you want to, you know, because if you're not Buddhist, it's important ethics. You can call it that in a lot of different ways. But so I guess my question is, is how do we, how can we be concerned for compassionate people outside of that compulsive kind of net of worrying that we all find ourselves in? And the way that you described it wasn't always altruistic worrying. Sometimes we're worrying about other people worrying about us. We're worrying about the face that's facing us. We're worrying about nobody. You know, it's not always, oh, I'm worrying about somebody because I have such a good heart. So I'm wondering. I'm worrying about what they think about me. Yes. Yeah, exactly. I'm worrying about people not worrying about me. Yes. So I'm kind of wondering where, if there's a transition and how we can, how we can step outside of worrying without eliminating compassion, I guess.

[31:28]

Excellent. Excellent. Yes, please. Thank you very much for raising that side. Yes. So in the language, as well as in the worrying, there is, he's really, he's opening up that obsessive side of worrying. And yet underneath it, I feel this, you know, that he's also talking about this caring. So, you know, what's their connection? When does, when does concern and maybe a healthy, mild anxiety become obsessive and neurotic worrying? And we should worry about that. So that just reminded me, I've had the pleasure of hearing on this too at the CVA conference. It was a real highlight to me. It came on the last night. It was really cool. But what it certainly meant, and it strikes me again, and I think your question touched on it. I think we have such a, our culture is basically oriented towards not worrying, right?

[32:34]

I mean, it's obsessive, not worrying. And somehow you can stop the worrying if you buy the right stuff or, you know, kill the right enemy or whatever. Somehow we can somehow reach the end of worry. And then I think we bring that into our Buddhist practice. And I think there can be even an American orientation towards the practice. I see it in myself, you know, because we're positivist people and we want to improve. We worry about improving, fixing and being better. And somehow this poem to me just like, just really drives it home that there's no end to worry. And it's actually, there's kind of a relief in that too. In accepting that at a certain level, you're like, oh, right. I'm going to worry forever. It's okay. So there's some end to that which has no end. Beings are numberless. The illusions are inexhaustible. So yes.

[33:34]

Good. I like all these comments. Yes, Melinda. I just, there were a couple of times I was struck just by sitting and listening and I could feel my heart pounding at certain points, just in terms of just the word of the positivity and moments where the humor touched. And it was mostly, I was, I guess, experiencing it more than how I heard or how I was feeling. I don't really have an intelligent comment per se. That was just, I noticed it was very interesting. All of a sudden I could feel my heart just beat, [...] and then a little bit, then there was a little humor. Could I just sort of ride and sort of stay with that and not necessarily try to fix it through this or do that? It was a ride. Yeah. Thank you. Great response. Yes. So one of the worries that I worry about, about people worrying is how we can sustain a healthy worrying about people worrying about people.

[34:40]

How do we care and how do we sustain that caring? Do you have something Jeremy? Closing. Oh, actually I thought that was really great because I was going to talk about embodying the worrying and I felt like your comment was exactly that, embodying the sensations and the feelings and the activity of worrying. That's great. Good. Well, thank you all. I should say again that this is from Norman's new book, which is due out very soon called The Strugglers. And it looks like Norman will be here to read some more of his stuff in other gyms. So we'll close with the four bodhisattva vows, which are not worries.

[35:27]

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