Commentary from the recorder. We were talking about Shu. And someone raised the question during the break, Well, this is what the case is. There must have been conditions whereby a government could organize a religion into these separate truths. And in fact, there is a true history for the truth. I don't want you to make the impression that there was a generic Japanese religion which then got divided. There were different facts going way back. But the newing of truth and the defense of facts has been changing a lot. And soon one has made a change. Mainly, ordinary people like us become members. of excuse, and can identify themselves with belonging to the community.

[01:04]

That happened quite late. I mean, for our purpose, like, seven, eight years ago, that happened. Before that, laymen were probably not involved. They could identify, except, you know, if they were not fundamentally fanatical about religion. They might be, but depending on the type of religion they were involved with, or if they saw themselves as men, The shu, the tradition of the six schools in Nara, the six schools of Nara, they also used the word shu. But what they meant there was probably something like a curriculum. They say they went in institutional fashion, but at one monastery, monks can specialize in certain books. Well, you could be like an Aristotelian or a Claytonian or any type of school, intellectual school or scholarly school. When the, when the Tendai and Shunran come in, in the 8th century, the beginning of the 4th, the notion of Shun becomes more developed because both of these schools had a notion of a corporate monastic membership.

[02:18]

In other words, prior to this time, there was one sangha in which everyone took refuge, everyone took the same ordination vow, and then they would go to the monastery and specialize in one or another. theology. But at the beginning of the Heian period, the pendai and shimbun, they have special ordination and initiation rites for their monks. This is a big step, obviously, in the creation of separate denominations. Laymen are not involved in this, but the monks could identify themselves, I have taken initiation from the pendai. Now, you could do it in more than one, but it wasn't as though You readied your stuff to a particular point. But still, there was a ritual basis now in the separation of the clergy into different orders, I suppose. Some of, I suppose, whom to pass the orders with or not to pass with, whether that's an appropriate pair or not. Now, that tradition then continues on through the Heian period.

[03:23]

The laymen basically just being generic with it, and monks increasingly becoming identified with particular schools, and temples then becoming identified with particular lineages. And an important thing happens during the Heian period that drives denomination and division. Whereas the early government policy was modeled on a Chinese policy that the government owned all the property in Japan, and then leased it. Increasingly, during the Han period, that system of government, that ideal of government, gave way to a recognition that it was families that owned the property. And the Buddhist monasteries participated in that realization. And that's about how the land became legally divided among property holders. among whom were monasteries. And the court would give land, right land, when they were opening up the prepared goods.

[04:27]

The Japanese, the northern part of Japan is being opened up for right coordination with a lot of new land, new wealth. That is given to monasteries. And so monasteries became profitable and then eventually became, had the same administrative functions as the large class, the most successful monasteries. And then you can imagine all the various monasteries then began to look for ways that they could consolidate, say, the less wealthy monasteries would want to be under the umbrella of a more wealthy monastery. And you develop a system that's called ,, called the Home means literally group, but it comes from family organization. We have the main family, and then branch homes under what we would call . The same . In other words, we have the main family that inherits the main property, and then it goes to the oldest son, and then we have the youngest son who gets 50 pieces if they're lucky at the top of the earth.

[05:38]

If they're not lucky, they have to be done this month. And so the temples began to arrange themselves the same way the great clans are arranged themselves, with the headquarters and the branch temples. So you are getting graduates. It takes a long time. You are getting by the time, by the end of the day, I'm kidding, when you get to the time that's when they're being introduced. Japanese Buddhism is now breaking down into these clerical factors, clerical corporations. Now, what happens at the end of the Heian period, when we start getting systematic meetings, of course, is the disruption of the system. The people are beginning to create new forms of data that don't fit into the previous system. And this is both intellectually, but perhaps more importantly, economically and politically problematic, what's going to happen when you've got a whole bunch of new families starting up. and trying to work their way into it, or get a piece of the pie.

[06:43]

And so the late Heian and early Kamakura series, just as the government and the families are rearranging property rights, it's like the military is taking over a lot of this land. So too, there's the same sort of turmoil within the people. It's not just anxiety about the last days and things like that. There's more for real politics. But I'm just going to stir it up. And then comes Inji's tale, just at this time. But notice here, what we're really talking about is the dates of power. And I would say that both of the economic and the spiritual style, we're talking about particular monsters, rather than abstract systems like the Soto tree, or the Six-Squared Tree, or the Tendai Tree. Powerful monasteries have power, no matter what they belong to. And people look to them as monasteries. If you look at the documents in this time, even some of the times, say, in the 15th century, the government does not talk about different .

[07:47]

It talks about different . The monastery in Nara. And the Japanese history books say that there was a that was popular in Japan. Actually, Yogyakarta Buddhism was not popular in Japan. What was popular as powerful was Koshiju Monastery in the city of Nara, which is still great. I don't know how many of you have visited that center. It's a marvelous church factory. That monastery is very powerful because it was the monastery aligned with the Shijuada clan, which was a very powerful family. So you have then Koshiju Monastery and each other's strange monasteries. But the government never said, we have to deal now with a first base school. But rather, we've got to deal with because it has all the landfills. School didn't own land, it was a monastery of land. Monastery had its share. I'm going to ask if people could move about the monastery.

[08:50]

Some of them specializing in doctrine studies, some not being known. And what happened? eventually is that these monasts at the school, if you want to talk about the process of development of the modern history, what happens is that these monastic institutions with their various branches become increasingly identified with specific documents of these theologies. And you can see this right around the time of Herodotus. And just thereafter, in the 18th and 14th centuries, we begin to get books written by British scholars trying to defend the faith against the new religion, like them, saying there are only eight forms of religion officially recognized. And they're the six not-of-fave women who play on it. And the new schools that are coming in may be popular, but they're not officially recognized at all.

[09:51]

And here you have a new sense, then, that there are bodies called fields that have been officially recognized. And they're calling the court for proliferation of the child. Zen being one of them. And Zen has to fight its way in, actually. These prescriptions against the Zen movement start already at the end of the 12th century, during 8,000. on my part thank you to you guys i'm for over a hundred uh... but you don't think it's still getting calls but this is not and she's not people who get the working report of the pure land then if you put it by the time about it Although other Buddhists were complaining about them, they didn't get very far, and they went to the Samaritans, because the Samaritans were happy to have this new integrated form of Chinese high religion.

[10:53]

They wanted the cultural prestige over against the war. For them, the court supported them. So they didn't get very far, and they had to come to the military government in Pampasura. But they could get the emperors. But both sides, both the corps and the military, were very nervous about the new, more pietistic form, which was threatening destruction. And they got very pleased. What would the theological grounds be? Yeah, well, we can talk about that maybe when we talk more about the early gen of how they saw this case.

[12:03]

But I think the first answer is they didn't want anything. That's what I'm trying to say. The strongest opposition came from the two strongest factions, political factions. The Tendai school, which had headquarters on Mount Hiei, was by far the capital, the heian capital of the city. They were by far the dominant organization, especially the state, although not exclusively And the other one is the post-divinatio, in the previous capital of Nara, which is very thoughtful and alive, because I think it gives a lot of family, which would be very good for both of those, of course.

[13:05]

And sometimes militaristic derogatory. Did you say that was Shindan monstrosity? Post-divinatio. Post-divinatio. Post-divinatio is happening in this world. One of the six natas for yoga child, for a yoga child, is jnana-vata. Previously you said that the ten nidai, I thought you meant the ten dai, the shindong school with the principal antagonist. The principal antagonist. Tendai and Shingon were called the two schools of Haya. In fact, they were quite different in historical practice. Tendai was a very powerful, not completely centralized, but much more centralized. Shingon was a mess. He had his famous monastery in Nankoya, and other monasteries around the country, but it was a much looser part of the organization. Do you work with Shikoku?

[14:09]

Kukai himself came from Shikoku, but when he came back from China, he was a monk. At the beginning of the 8th century, he spent four years studying esoteric birth, country Buddhism in China. He came back and then established a monastery right in the capital, Kouji. And then he also established a famous monastery at a place quite distant from the capital, in Koya. And the distance is part of the problem, politically, that they didn't have the same presence. The court religion. The Shingon was not in the same kind of political situation to visit. And in fact, although most of the early Zen Buddhists, Japanese convicts of Zen Buddhism came out of the Tendai tradition, In some ways, they had a greater welcome in Shindong. They felt more comfortable. Because it is less politicized.

[15:18]

So... In Kyoto, not in Nara. Eastern campus. It's still there. It's south of Chesaire Station. Yes, downtown. And they have a nice flea market. You talked about this. It occurred to me that when you look at it geographically in Kyoto, where the temples are located, it kind of follows the agent that told you it's downtown. The Zen temples tend to be where the periphery of Dzogchen would have been in the 13th century. They would have been on the outskirts of the town. They were all along the Dashi Amaya down to the... They didn't have any power because they had to go out to the outskirts and buy cheap land. Yeah, they were all on the outskirts. They took a very... but certainly I mean part of it is that the Kyoto itself used in other words from the Heian period Kyoto was to the west of where it is now and it moved over towards the Dachshund the western part of Kyoto which is now industrial

[16:38]

It's pretty crummy up there a lot. It's actually much better developed. It's such a turn for the times. It's time they wanted to get up to the hill. These people have to move up up to the hill. That can be a great thing. But it's illusional. It's flat. It's like a kind of modest capital, profit capital. Okay, we're going to go there. Just principles in the creation of the Shuyang. You've got to have a certain monarchical constitution, but the other things that they look for when they said there are eight shoes. You had to have your own scriptures and your own documents, if you wanted to be distinct. So in Zen canon, it had to have the documents, the scriptures, which is probably what they would say was beyond scriptures.

[17:40]

And it had to define itself in other words in terms of native Japanese culture that was not necessarily the same in terms of it had faith in China. And so that's what you see. happened in the creation of Japanese Zen during the Kamakura and the Midevanshi period. Increasingly, a specialization on certain books that nobody else but, like the Zen course, collects. Specialization in rituals devoted to a particular meaning. The lineage devoted to Anima and the various masses in which I So then, in other words, the notion of a historical tradition of lineage becomes very, very important. And it's not surprising that in modern times, all the different Buddhist schools, including the Zen school, define themselves according to

[18:42]

the founders, really just the founders, the people who brought the religion from China to Japan, the founders in Japan. And then, you go back, they all have to be connected up to make them orthodox, they have to be connected up with the religion in China. Like, the relationship between or Chinese math. So in the modern description of the origins of Zen in Japan, we get back to where I started, namely, it's the story of Confucius. This, all the historical creation that I've been talking about at the time, the dissolved priest, aside, and the story is, a certain master, a museum, gave the doctrine to a certain Japanese master who brought it to Japan. So the classic story goes then that Glenn was introduced to Japan by a monk named Asai, a ten-by-month.

[19:47]

At the end of the 12th century, he went to Japan, went to China. Studied with a Chinese monk there. Came back and built the monastery in . Where he started teaching Zen. And that's how Zen came into being. And then, very soon thereafter, 1227, came back. And she built the monastery. And so you have . kind of a thing I'll follow up on that. Now, of course, it's a much more complicated story because, as you know, there are 16 different factions of Jinja. They don't all come out at the same time. Because other monks are going to China, or monks are coming from China to Xi Jinping.

[20:49]

And so the different lineages, then, all have different founders. So there are 16 different lineages of Jinja. There's 16 different founders, some of which are founders, but basically you're talking about set to be, what I call, sub-linearity within the Lidai umbrella. And then, in circle, we've got . And then each of these founders being associated with China, then have to have a separate sectarian, you might say, identity in China. In other words, if Binzai and Soto are different in Japan and they come from, they are typically the transmission of China, then you've got to find Binzai to be Chinese. And so the historiography then pushes back across the Japan Sea to China, and the notion that the Japanese schools were present in China.

[21:55]

There was a and a . And fortunately for this process of the creation of a Chinese shoe, like a Japanese shoe, right, a . The Zen Buddhists had already, Zen historians had already divided up their tradition into different houses, which could be seen as different shoes. So the famous five houses. a Chinese Zen. Has anybody heard of that? This was a taxonomic arrangement whereby you divide Zen history by talking about the lineages of different masses and divide them into five major groups. So that's the five different types and accounts that are there. And at the time when Japanese monks started going to China in the cross-century, New York City, two of these five houses in New York, New York, New York, New York.

[22:57]

It's not just that they bring those images, but they also bring the characteristic doctrine that hundreds of years later, the scholars, like Soto and Nida, would identify as the distinctive features of the three houses. The other three didn't survive. So you need to have a lineage, but you also need to have a characteristic doctrine. So what do you think that distinguishes Soto and Nida? There must be something that came from China. And that's something there is a debate between Han and Nida. and . There are two things that characterize the tradition from modern times. So period, as we say, the 12th century in China.

[24:02]

It's described in terms of a debate between . emphasizing the and emphasizing something called dilumination . In Japanese, mokusho zen. So kanna zen, but inside, and mokusho zen. Okay. Silent illumination zen, or soto, zinzai. And this was associated with a great Zen master in China, Da Hui. This one is associated with his contemporary, a man named Hong Jiu. And they're seen as warring facts.

[25:05]

They disagree in the same way that century-closers . So, not just the lineage, but the doctrines, the ideologies, if you want to call it that, ideologies, whatever, are transmitted across the pansees with the coming of the Lenten period. Yeah? In what time did the Great Sepulchre accept the call about this kind of acting up? There's some pieces of it that are coming together. I mean, if you look at Dogen, he's already got some of the elements. It gets finalized in the late 17th century. When Zinzai and Soto have been recognized by the government as separate institutions, and they've been asked to consider what it is that they should. We need to have a doctrine to be recognized by.

[26:10]

Thank you. And, in fact, once, in the 17th century, once the government started supporting the Buddhist faction and bringing them into Tokyo, all the different Buddhist, now, Shu, began having their own academy of study of their doctrine. And each of the doctrines was regularized. Rinzai and Kote are doing this at the same time. in this kind of renaissance of galacticism, historical studies, doctrinal studies, and so on, and the codification of what the dogma is. This is a Tukadala phenomenon. And modern Soto and Nizai are created, I mean, their theologies are created out of this process. Now we have support, they're active, and we're not allowed to, you know, reorganize ourselves in any way. What we can do is we can study our doctrinal traditions. And this is when people start reading the Shobo Genzo poetry.

[27:16]

They go and drag it out of monastery here. They've been sitting in rows to manage it for centuries. And they start editing it, and distributing it, and writing commentaries on it. And that's when Shobo Genzo is a book that becomes the biggest picture of poetry. Yeah, that's when it becomes a book. He didn't really hit the big time until the 20th century. He was just the founder of both those things. It was a pretty affluent organization, but intellectually, nobody outside of Shakespeare cared about it until the 20th century. And his books didn't get published until the 19th century. They shouldn't have been published. It was important within the school for codifying the doctrine, but publicly it wasn't being read by other people. It seems as if one of these new things they, correct me if I have a loose impression, the emphasis on the word shu and the fact that, to the extent that that was a creation of sort of revisionist historians in the Japanese system.

[28:31]

But I don't, I think that's true. I can't agree with all that, I'll just say that I read a lot of Chinese texts, and the word is wildly thrown all over the place to describe all types of things, including schools, the styles of particular teachers. And it's widely used and misused. It's the hardest word to translate for me, from Chinese into any modern word that has any meaning related to the old meaning. The reason is because it's widely used in Chinese to describe really kind of the same way the Japanese use it. They have to roll it all over and say everybody's got a shoe, and there's this shoe, and it's a big full, it's a little full, it's a single piece of style. And what do you do with them? I guess what I'm saying is it seems like that word goes back into China, and they were doing the same thing, but that's quite simple. They were doing the same, I mean, they have a very wide range. What I was trying to do was to, like I said in the academy, to say you can construct a modern thing,

[29:35]

of shū, meaning a Buddhist denomination, with lay membership and own property, own ordination rights. That particular configuration, or sense of shū, which has dominated Japanese vision of the Buddhist path, is a trinitarian model. And that you don't find in China, or even in early Japanese history, quite that same arrangement of Buddhist denominations. But then, Changgong in China, I think, was never that. A particular institution that owned property and had members, lay members. That's not, that's a modern Japanese invention. It's not typical of Brutus anywhere else. It was only the end of the period when Fukugawa won the pot. So they certainly do use the word don't. But, as you say, depends what you mean by it.

[30:40]

So you can have, of course, you can have things like a school of art, you can have a school of painting, all different sorts of things. One of the meanings, of course, is ancestor. The initial meaning is ancestor, hence an ancestral meaning. But it also means, and this is a very good quote, ultimately, the definition of a teacher, but particularly a doctor. So what is your zong? will often mean, what is it that is special about your understanding? Like a house. Yeah, like a house style. And so there's a term, for example, you can find in China and in Japan, or in Japanese. This means a gate, as the hormone, dharma gate. It's an awkward text, but it means a teacher. But it can also mean. So it can mean an institution that they cannot see in the future.

[31:46]

Then you'd have another word in front of it that has both places as well. What are we talking about here? But is it the or is it a teaching that is essential? and so on, and they recognize the ambivalence here, and they say, are they ambivalent here, and they play with it. So one of the ways for them to do is to walk back and forth between real and true love. And that was the type of a thing that we don't see. It's true love. And then, when you see how they define it, they say, we are the model. That is to say, the petition. That preserves the example teaching of the truth. We're clear. And then some would say, well, we're in the tradition that has the anthem, the Patriot. So what I'm asking is only that you recognize that there are all these different things, that there are all these different means, and not apply that some sort of a church, a denomination, that they would be working for.

[32:54]

Let alone for China. And that same thing can be said, what I want to say about, This notion that there's Linzai and Sōtō in China which then get transmitted by Azar and Dōryū to Japan. If you look at the contemporaneous Sōtō and Sōtō, the five houses is linear. It's a linear, it's a taxonomic device for organizing all the lineages in China. But the monasteries don't distribute themselves according to Linzai monasteries and Sōtō monasteries. And the teachings that we see associated with members of the community do not separate themselves out as Kanna Zen and Mokusho Zen. That's a back read based on a need to have, it comes out of the Japanese, and actually from the later Japanese experience. Is that how it's Japanese? No, Mokusho Zen, the term Mokusho Zen. I mean, not the term, but the five houses. The five houses is a Chinese historiographical term.

[33:58]

What I'm saying is it's a literary convention. It doesn't correspond to any institution or doctrinal position, as it does in Japan. In early Japan, I would say, although we haven't really thought about that yet, but presently in Japan, it never corresponded to Japan. So then the question, obviously, is when you're talking about early Zen, what are these, what about these sectarian styles that you know are associated with Yizhai Zen and Sokka Zen? Yizhai Zen and Sokka Zen both come in in the 12th and 13th centuries. What is it? What do we mean by that when we say that we should come, I don't . And if not, where does that come from?

[35:02]

That's one of the issues when you talk about the origin of the same school that went . How they model. So that's the Chinese problem. That is to say that the background in China doesn't seem to be, doesn't fit me. There's a notion of age, [...] age. When you look at the contemporary English literature about the Zen school, written by Japanese Buddhists who are watching it coming from China, they don't talk about Minzai in person. They're not interested in it. Some of them recognize that there are the five houses because there's yet Chinese people who know that the Zen has these five conventions, five houses. But they never say there are two kinds of Zen, Minzai in person.

[36:07]

These are people writing in the 13th century stuff. for objective observance of Japanese history. It seems so funny in a way of history constantly being written retroactively, like history being written retroactively based on other history that's written retroactively, so you wind up writing a history based on these creations that have been made and on and on and on, basically, so you wind up with... whatever you wind up with, which is confusing. Yes, yes. Well, the very notion of a lineage that has to be resurrected. A founder only becomes a founder once he's had a lineage. It means you've got to look back at him as the founder of your house. You've got to have a house. And then you're supposed to be whatever it is that you characterize the house like, the interest, you simply just find it must have been like the thought. Oh, you go ahead.

[37:09]

I was just going to say, most of the details were, they were, well, like the, um, if you just, if you don't know, And who else is doing that in his life? At that time, the other Zen monks who came back from China got real popular with people at that point and kind of shoveled and shoved Dogen aside. So he was mad he kind of got pushed aside from the court and said back, oh, well, those inside people were blah, blah, blah.

[38:35]

And that's one interpretation. Yeah. Yeah. What's the progression in time ? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think it, I certainly don't think it's a crime to do it, be religious to do it as a crime. So it's not a crime to do it as a crime, but no, is it, was it actually a crime to do it as a crime? Well, I think it was, but it's a form of argument that is kind of called putting him off. It means one more to not. In other words, you set up your opponent and let him do it.

[39:42]

It's the same way the Southern school argues with the Northern school. We don't have texts from the Northern school arguing back against the platform system. It's a foil. The Northern school is a foil for an argument. We don't have Hinayana texts arguing back against Hinayana is actually better than the Mahayana, right? Those are, in the process of creating a new vision of religion, you need to contrast it with something that is becoming conscious. And I think that's fair to say that those religions, those that are interested in creating something new, and you read other alternative pictures of that, are the forest. And you don't care if you don't argue that. When you look, my point was, if you look at the contemporaneous account of the introduction of Zen to Japan by people like Heisei, Dozen, and lots of other monks who are coming out of the 21 Japanese, they do not suspect this. Only in their emphasis, the emphasis on the difference between Minzai and Soto to think far of the Zen.

[40:51]

They're just not interested. Even when they talk about the Pride holiday, They just use it as a throwaway category. I mean, some will say, well, they're in . But they never talk about the views of them. Well, in that time in China, they were saying, Rinzai is everywhere, and Soto is in the left corner. I mean, it already was that way in China, unfortunately. I mean, Soto was already way back, you know, China. Yeah, and basically, a model of Zen that you see in the historian accounts of the introduction of Zen is Rinzai Zen. And I mention Rinzai Zen just because they know what the Five Houses are, but they do not talk about it. When they describe Zen, it looks like That is there, in fact.

[41:55]

There really aren't two houses, in fact. Just as there are some people claiming Illuminati. If you look at regime-going writing, it's not so self-evident. It isn't like what you think. There's no scumbags on there. If there's no sense of practice and enlightenment, that thing is back. It doesn't come out of the regime's book. He looks like an ordinary Sony guy, but he's a Zen guy. And that's what's coming into him. Apart from this anomalous thing, Dogen and his children don't know. So what he's doing, and where he's coming from, and what he's trying to do, is to speak to you, because it's very important. And in his second book, I think he's in Korea, all the people who are bringing him home, Dogen is the one who's really trying to do it for years. He's not questioning it. If you're blending together Japanese and Chinese, then in a new form of religion, it's the only one who's self-conscious about this, you know, issue of photo and part of a project that the others don't have.

[43:12]

Okay, um, you have to knock off two more. Do you like that Rick? Yeah, it looks like you're being talked about. All you're thinking is, where do you smoke? That's not even one person. And then you always get the same, like, two more reps and then you definitely run together. Yeah, okay. Good. That would be awesome. Good night. One man left. Japanese age is soft enough. It's not too cold. He's giving such a point. It takes them from all over the place.

[44:21]

His major sources are a couple of history books that are non-denominational, non-sectarian in effect. The most famous is called the Den Kodoku in Refugees, probably because of the transmission of the lamp. It's written in 1004 by a guy who I guess technically associated with Blackfeet. You may still remember, but it's not really very relevant. And it's just a, it's part of a slow movement to write encyclopedias. They're doing this with all different subjects, right? Geography, history, art, and so on. They're classifying things with writing. And Venn did that too. He classified all the different lineages then. Created a golden age then. That's where we get our pictures of the Kong dynasty masses being and shouting at each other. But these are stories brought together and put into this classification scheme under the Five Houses. Yes, the story of the transmission of the land.

[45:43]

In other words, all those stories in there have to do with an interesting phase of the stages of the past, then bring the neo-continent before his time. One of the things we have to understand is that the political building was ready when he went to China. It was not the political that Japanese people didn't need. It's modern writing. It's colloquial Chinese, not classical Chinese. You need to put down that example, like the transmission of the land, and take out a classical Chinese dictionary as a source that would help you read, say, the learning, uh, with Kutra, translated by Samadhi, you'll have a lot of it. There's a language in there that's just different. Modern Chinese. And so when building went over there, he was trained in classical Chinese. And then he got this whole new body of literature. And he comes back. One of the reasons that the Shodoganda is so interesting is that he was fascinated by modern Chinese. And he starts writing in modern Chinese and using it in all sorts of ways.

[46:49]

It must have been totally mind-boggling to all these people who were being trained in classical Chinese. And so he leaves His genre of writing, his style of writing, is present. That is to say, unlike all the other forms of religion, he's writing in modern Chinese. And that means, no matter what he says, he represents modern, contemporary China, and not the old traditions of religion that had come before that had developed in the beginning. So it's partly a literary and a political difference. I represent contemporary Chinese music. by the very voice. Hm? Well, the interesting thing is, is that instead of just writing in modern Chinese, he writes in Japanese using modern Chinese for public.

[47:54]

Most of the writing in Chinese . in a combination of classical Japanese, which is not classical in this case, and modern Chinese. He's using lots and lots of Chinese words and not just traditional Buddhist words. He's using modern, that is, in effect, the street language in which these Chan masters were telling their stories. And if you're going to tell a good story about Although it's a lot closer to what's going on today than you look back at and different from the buddhist flying space you don't need to notice before something is done it's a very good reminder is that the secret or is it just right behind it

[49:07]

It's a combination of the fact, first of all, that the Chinese in the late Tang period, dropping, you know, in the 8th, 9th century, began to recognize the possibility of writing in colloquial writing as opposed to the classical. And that developed in the 20th century. There's a lot more literary, a lot more literate a much larger literate population, and it's shrinking. And so using becomes a much more common activity in China, and so things written in contemporary language become accessible, become practical. That, on the one side. And on the other side, Zen's attempt to identify itself as not the lack of truth, as love, then, Because they don't write in theology, they write in stories. So then they develop a story of all the Nazis using colloquial language.

[50:29]

But all of that was going on in front of me, where it's becoming like, things just stuck in the traditional, I'll never see the traditional. So, it's hard to say. Okay. One thing I wanted to leave you with. As you can see, I'm going to have to leave you after I've dashed back. This book's about to expire. I'm going to dash back until the half of the dinner is very funny. This is cute. But did you ever ask yourself a question that bothered me when I first started reading about Japanese dance? We read about the six patriarchs, the northern and southern spirits, all that kind of stuff. That quickly turns around 700. We know that already in the seventh century there were people, not calling themselves the Nduits yet, but the fourth patriarch. There's a famous sign in the end times, or at least certainly in the generation after the Nduits, the fifth patriarch. Sun Tzu, the patriarch wannabe of the northern school, was a major figure in the court of Wu Zetian, famous empress, usurper of the town.

[51:46]

These were big shots. We know that Zen was in the air all this amazing. And we know that Japanese Buddhists were going to China in the 1800s. Why is it that Zen never made it to the UK for 400 years? If it's the hot thing. The other hot thing in China at this time is Contrary to coming into India, people like Amogha Gargoyle, famous Indian master, like a 16-month-old, constantly put that community in trouble by the project going over there, like around 800. And brought back, and it becomes Shingon Bhaisan, it becomes Tendai Bhai. And then, you're supposed to be producing at the same time. And it's obviously popular.

[52:48]

I mean, you look at the Dunhuang Manuscripts in this very time, it's still the same thing. by both the Northern and Southern schools. What's going on? Why isn't Zen giving credit? The usual answer is Japan was not led to credit. Japan was an aristocratic country, and Zen was a popular union. Zen had to wait until it became a common critic union. When it was looking for popular unity and creating a stubborn, pure line to be created, Then, Zen could make some sense. It's kind of like intellectually right for this type of radical reform sort of thing. Whereas before that, we wanted systematic, institutional, at least reformed, like in the ideology of John Mitchell. Maybe some truth in that. I'm not saying it is, but I think there's another side to that.

[53:48]

Zen was not right for Zen. Now, I don't know how much Don talked about the question of the history of the development of German science. But while we read about the northern studying schools and platforms and the originating there, in some sense, there's a major institution of Chinese theory that didn't really explain about it. Sometimes we start in the 10th century, not that, in the 7th century. And the theory on the soul dynasty that we have is that we have monasteries devoted to rituals associated with the deliverance of Bodhidharma. And the writing of books like the Transmission of the Lamp and so on is in the 50s and celebrates the variety of things. You've probably had your thoughts there, have you? For a fair while. Yes, Elaine, you don't remember.

[54:50]

Your memory is short. I know that you live in the moment. But, yeah, Jeff Probst, he teaches a fair life. He was showing us when he ran monasticism. I've seen the song, which probably makes something amazing. The argument, again, is a song, and it's not a song, really. That is, it's a division from the 11th or 12th century. Not that it was in some special relationship. He said, Zen in itself is this? Yes. In other words, until you start getting the Zen institution as a distinctive monastic on its own mission. What we're talking about when we talk about Zen, something like the platform teacher, is simply an intellectual movement, an interpretation of this. That is interesting. but doesn't have the sort of clout that he thinks it has.

[55:51]

In other words, monasteries, Chinese Buddhist monasteries go on in every way. They're not sectarian anyway, right? They're on Tendai and Pontic monasteries and so on. They're just Chinese monasteries. We didn't want people to study different things. That's the traditional way it was in India. It's the way it's been in China. And one of the things they study, I don't know, But when Japanese pilgrims went there and listened to a new point of religion, there's thousands of these books that they saw, and they brought them back into pen. And it's that. It's exactly about the introduction of Zen ideas to pen. It's not that they can read them. It's to read them. The pilgrims and the pen, he brought back, contradicted them, and penned that book. And institutionalized them as the two heian spirits also brought back the books of Zen. that we find, some of them, that we find in the Dongquan sect. Contemporaneous, thoroughly generalized. How did we find the rising suspense beyond Vietnam and Korea along the fourth century?

[56:54]

But that's also really... Contemporaneous. No, that's really... If we look at the history of those, there are also some developments. Not Congolese. The ninth school of the Song in Korea was studied by students of the second generation of masters. Yeah, that's taught. But that's taught as subject of the same kind of historical spectrum of faculty as the Japanese. And the full moon gen studies, or Song studies in Korea, is really contemporaneous to the Song, not with the Song. Chino can do better than that. to really establish the Pilgrim Order. So Korean historians would say some of the same sort of things. Yes, there is something there that the book, that the Koreans recognize, but we can't really talk about Zen in the sense that we've now come to know it as a special religious option. Do you think the book came over slowly, or was it made less tonight?

[57:58]

I don't know. He wasn't used to teaching art. The only difference was he wasn't used to teaching art in his family either. So it's not that the Japanese got the book before the Jewish church around the book. There was no church around it. I think you have to figure out in China what is around the book, not around the church. Right. Yeah. A few, a few tracts. Bajong supposedly took the Monastery orders and it happened. It didn't happen. And of course they had to go through the poison, supposedly took the Monastery orders. It didn't happen. I mean, Rick has studied this in a lot of his hair. There's no historical evidence for anything off of Zen Monastery before it's picked up. And the Bajong hoes, That's all related then to the fact that we have the original code of the Zen order, which reflects the practices of sattva-mini-buddhihim, dakkha-dhobhi-sutra, basically, that way.

[59:03]

That is the suttra of the Sangha. Now, there were people during the Tongs talking about Zen, other Zen monks on the land. And if anything, you mentioned other monks like Zen monks. That's a fact. So there were people during the Tongs called Zen leaders in Zen and Zen, and when you look at N.I. 's diary, he's looking around trying to put the truth to it, and all the time he's visiting about these Zen monks that are a pain in the butt because they're always running around, not practicing the doctrine, not practicing right and hate. Now that's happened enough to be important. Correct. But that is to say, there is a, what do I call it, a hot ticket item, or you just call it that, and all that. Zen is not nothing. It's a lively, new way of thinking about it. And there are places, for example, in Sichuan, in Chengdu, where you find radical people trying to institutionalize it and being criticized by other divisions.

[60:12]

The way in which it's like . But the term, bear in mind the term of . is a generic term, not necessarily associated with any institution. It's a put-down by scholastics as those monks who do meditation and don't know what to have or do, because they don't study books. It's an old term. It's both a current and honorific term. He's a con-monk, that means he's a master of meditation, but it's also a put-down term by scholastics. He's merely a con-monk in any sense. But it doesn't mean he's associated with a particular lineage or affiliation. In fact, he is a denited contemplative. and not someone who studies music, which there has been. And that has a long history. Southern monks calling northern monks all a bunch of Chan monks, back in the 5th Dynasty. Because there are a bunch of barbarians doing meditation up there, but they don't have the perception of the priesthood. They don't have a commentary. So the term Chan monk in Chinese usage has much broader sense than people who associate themselves with a lineage of Bodhisattvas.

[61:17]

Now, those people occur at the end of the 7th and into the 8th century. And by the end of the 8th century, we get the first use of the term chansong. The lineage of school of chong. But still not referring to institutions. It's referring to a certain style of leadership that is now self-conscious and associated with the assertive doctrine. It's a gradual practice, in other words. going on in China, just as it is in Japan, of the creation of something that we might call the Zen spirit. And my point is only, if you think about it in that way, it's not so surprising that when Japanese monks went over to China looking for Buddhism, they didn't automatically say, oh, there's a new form of Buddhism that I'll bring back and introduce now, in the way that they did with the concept of Zen. They brought back the book, And they tried to incorporate the notion of talent teaching into their own teaching.

[62:23]

Already in the recent. And, in fact, the pendai, the Japanese pendai order, the guy who founded that, a famous monk named Saicho, comes back and he says, I have four leaves. I got infected. In other words, I studied everything hot, in fact. He's like Dogon. I'm bringing back contemporary Chinese people. And I'm going to establish it on Mount G-A. But I've got G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G He said, yes, we will send you the polygons. And I've got Chi. Chi means two things. I've got the polygons.

[63:25]

That would be . But I have the . So when he set up, his ,, that's the attack point for him. And then he said, he said, it's a case to incorporate all the latest forms of Chinese And it celebrated itself as quite self-conceited. We are the one society that has the ability to get all of these things. And so, the early textile masters had to take account of all of these, and figure out how they were going to get into the system. The system of what we now call Kandai. that included a Zen element. And they did that.

[64:25]

During the 8th and 9th century, they developed theologies, native ground, Japanese theologies, that put Zen into a larger practice. There are a number of systems, but it's important to recognize that there's so many buildings, so many basins in the world that already recognize that cause for pressure. Recognize it as a business option. Which job is exploited in a way that will fit in with that? That's the job of all these new jobs. This is one way of doing it. Quite a way of doing it. Yes. His name is . And he lived right around 1800. Meditation practice?

[65:41]

Oh, no, meditation practice came certainly the very earliest monks. All the monks did meditation. I mean, at least they know they are people. And they want the layman to think they are. So, of course, yeah, meditation practice. And the term Zen master and so on were present in Japan probably the earliest times. Okay. Thank you very much. 9.30 tomorrow morning? 9.30.

[66:09]

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