I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. Good evening. So, if you don't mind indulging me, I would like to do what I did last time, since I don't know some of you, and also since I have trouble remembering names, if you could just go around and say your name and, I don't know, a little bit about your background or your participation at Green Gulch now. So this is the fifth of six, is that right? Classes on Dogen's writing about Sangha and community and the standards for the community and so we've been going over different sections and we'll continue today and also looking at some of the koans or teaching stories that he gives in the last section about community and monastic practice and the attitude towards uh... community practice so last time we looked at uh... we talked about some of the procedural aspects of things and what that's about but also we talked about these two stories about uh... monks who

[01:20]

who became great teachers, who Dogen praises very highly as models. In both cases, they were thrown out of the temple in the story that he's talking about. So Fushan Paiwan the Tenzo, who stole food from the storehouse because he was feeling sorry for the monks who were having a, didn't have much to eat. And then the other one was Wuzhu, who was the mill manager and who, It turned out he was actually doing a good job of raising money for the community, but it looked like he was wasting money. Anyway, they both experienced being thrown out and then coming back. So we talked about that some last time, but I just wondered if anybody else had any thoughts about those stories and what that means in terms of the attitude towards dharma practice. Any other thoughts this week? questions, comments.

[02:25]

Yes? I wonder if he was talking a few minutes ago about, I think it's Leocon? How he sort of abhorred being at a monastery. I wonder if that's maybe the undercurrent of some of these types of stories. It's interesting, there's this dynamic. So partly I'm mentioning those stories again because the stories I wanted to talk about tonight give one other kind of angle on it. So the whole dynamic of doing this strict monastic practice with all of these forms, we've talked I think at some length about the forms and what the meaning of that is and how we see that and understand the practice forms. So there's the kind of, so one thing that I've tried to talk about is the idea of universal liberation, that we do, this is something we do together.

[03:28]

And in a sense, in both of those cases, Wuzhu and Fushan were both acting for the greater good. They weren't acting out of self. They were not acting in a self-serving way. But there's this tension that I think of those of you who've, who've had any experience in residential practice have between your own practice, desires, needs, passions, whatever, that may be sincere and aimed at positive spiritual purpose and the needs of the group. And so this is tension. So I think that's always there. And part of And Dogen talks about it too, it's a story I wanted to, I don't know if we'll get to tonight or next week, but some of what Dogen talks about, or a lot of what Dogen talks about in the Shinggis, abuses or, maybe that's too strong a word, just ways in which the practice can degenerate.

[04:31]

So almost from the beginning of any discussion of Zen community, there are all these admonitions against kind of the decay of the spirit of that community. And so it goes together. And some modern scholars have made much of this kind of iconoclastic spirit confined to these rigid forms. So there's a tension about it. And Ryokan represents kind of one, in a sense, one extreme. He wasn't satisfied, he didn't, we don't know to what extent he was dissatisfied with the temples, And the monastic set up, certainly he did not have his own temple, did not train anybody. He had one student who died. But he wasn't doing any formal kind of training. He was a mendicant monk who lived outside in a hermitage outside his village. There's a tradition of that in Zen. And how it would be expressed in America, we don't really know yet, actually.

[05:33]

I think it would need its own cultural form. I don't know if any of you who've been around will know of anybody think of as doing an American version of that kind of thing. I mean, there are people who are practitioners who got out from Zen Center and are practicing in the world, but in the way that Ryokan is doing, it didn't. Thomas Merton had the tradition. Well, Thomas Merton, but he had this, he had that tension, but he stayed at Getsemane. I mean, he did some traveling and teaching, but Ryokan didn't focus particularly on criticizing the monastic establishments. So maybe it was just more his personal style to live in a hermitage and do that kind of practice. There were people like Ikkyu who would not very severely criticize the monasteries at this time. So there's this tension anyway. But what's interesting is that Dogen's praising in those two cases that we talked about last time, particularly people who, from a superficial point of view, had

[06:37]

violated precepts or something like that, or who actually had suffered some karmic consequence temporarily and then later came back and are now memorialized as great exemplars of tradition. There's a lot of irony in this. I would suggest that we can look at this kind of thing as a way of keeping a perspective on what community is about and how we find our own practice. Also, as beings, it seems to me that we don't really know what's going on. I mean, in a certain sense, or what compelled those dramas to unfold in that way. Well, there's a lot that's left unsaid in the story, that's true. Is that what you mean? Yeah. We don't, you know, so there's lots of... I mean, I might say that we can call them koans precisely because there's... one has to infer a lot about what was going on in those stories.

[07:39]

And so it allows us, but it allows us to look at some issues, I think. Right. And also, I think, on another level, we don't really know what's, you know, how, how the things that we participate in, how they, we don't really understand, sort of, in some way. I don't think it was a maneuver, a manipulation on their part, or the Sangha part or whatever, but how those things will turn out and when. It turns out that they were supporting the Sangha, but I don't know that they saw that, that they were doing that in that moment. Well, I think you're right. It was just, so okay, that's a good, okay. The point that you're getting at, I think, if I understand, is what I wanted to talk about in the next two stories tonight, which is just this kind of, What I feel is the undercurrent in all the stories that Doug incites is this deep, sincere intention to find the way, and with a kind of very wide, open heart.

[08:44]

So in the case of Fushan, to really care about the monks who he was supposed to be feeding, even to the point of taking something to feed them in a little better way. And Wuzhu, again, we have to read a lot into his but he was willing to suffer the consequences, we talked about that, but also it turned out that he had actually raised a lot of money for the temple. Well, okay, maybe that's enough of a review. I wanted to start just, we've talked about the forms, but one point that, and I was talking about, just now about the criticism of decadence of the forms. We talked a little bit about the fushikohanko and the oyoki practice, And I went over a little bit how the Oyoki eating is a little different in the Heijin in Japan than what we do here. But I thought that some of these passages, which are quoted partly directly from the Vinaya, kind of give a sense of what Dogen was up against and what the Buddha was up against because, as it should be, as you may know,

[10:00]

When they talk about things not to do, that's usually because somebody is doing them. So they say don't. So most of the regulations come up in response to situations. It's situational. It's not just that somebody's dreaming up a bunch of rules. It's like in response to situations. So I thought I'd just read some from page 94. This is in the middle of the Dharma for Taking Foods, the first full paragraph. When taking up or putting down bowls and also in picking up your spoons, chopsticks do not make any noise. So probably those of you who have done a lot of or you practice it as a horror sets nerve. I've heard the admonition not to make noise with your spoons and bowls. Do not dig out rice from the middle of the bowl when you eat to rush or make it appear that you need more. Unless you are sick, do not seek after extra soup or rice for yourself. Do not cover the soup with rice, hoping to get more by making it appear less. Do not look into other monks bowls arousing envy.

[11:05]

Just eat with your attention focused on your bowls. Do not try to eat balls or mouthfuls of rice that are too big. Do not throw balls of rice into your mouth. Do not take food and then leave it uneaten to be thrown away. So this is a basic part of Oryaki practice. You eat what you take. So you don't take extra. Do not make noise when chewing your food. Do not loudly slurp up your food. Do not lick your food. Buddha said we should not stick out our tongue or lick our lips when we eat. We must study this. Do not wave your hands around when you eat. Do not support your elbows on your knees when you eat. That's an interesting one. I remember the first time I had Oyuki instruction, I think it was Robert Lytle, and he was talking about this, that you don't eat leaned over like this. So, you know, one might, actually. Or like when you're cleaning your bowls, you might lean on them. So some of these are things that we actually might do ourselves.

[12:08]

And others, do not scatter your food or play with it. Buddha said, while eating, do not scatter your bread or rice like a chicken. Do not pick up or eat your food with dirty hands. Do not make noise while eating by stirring up or sipping your food. Buddha said, do not heap up your food like a stupa. It goes on. This passage is interspersed. Some of this is Dogen. Some of this is direct quotes from the Vinaya from Shakyamuni's time. Some of this is quotes from Dogen's source in China. Do not fill your bowls to overflowing. Do not mix soup into the rice in your first bowl. Do not stir side dishes into the first bowl to mix with your rice before eating it. Now that's been an issue I know at Tassajara. Have you ever experienced that, Charlie, where some people like to put

[13:10]

Nuts in the cereal. Nuts in the cereal is a good one, right, exactly at breakfast from the third bowl into the first. And at different times, I don't know what the form of Tassajara is now, whether that's permitted or not. It's usually not, yeah. But at different times over the course of... But I saw some Sotoshu people doing that. Yeah, so they're very, so these are all, all of these forms are different. It's like there's a range. There's a range, and sometimes you can put things from the third bowl into the second, and then there are cases when the Tenzo announces, please feel free to put your nuts from the third bowl into the yogurt in your second bowl or something like that. So, you know, there are various ways to work with this. Anyway, it's been an issue going back, you know, what Doug was talking about here. Do not eat great mouthfuls like a monkey storing up food in its cheek and gnawing on it. Generally, whether you are on the left or right side of the hall, do not eat your food too hurriedly or too leisurely. Definitely, you must never rush your eating and then fold your arms and look around the assembly.

[14:12]

I did that once by accident. Yeah, no, I've seen that happen. I didn't know how much time I had to do it. It's really awkward. Yeah. I mean, it's understandable when a new student does that. Or at least it's forgettable. When seconds have not yet been announced, do not wipe your bowls clean or salivate thinking of eating more. Do not crudely leave over some food, waiting for more rice or soup to eat it with. It goes on. Do not scratch your head and let dandruff fall into your bowls. You should keep your hands clean. Do not shake your body, hold your knees, sit crouching over, yawn or sniffle loudly. If you have to sneeze, cover your nose. If you have to remove something from between your teeth, you should cover your mouth. Place inedible scraps or fruit pits out of sight behind your bowls where they cannot provoke your neighbor's distaste. This is one of my favorite ones coming up.

[15:14]

If there is leftover food or fruit in your neighbor's bowl, do not accept it, even if it is offered to you. Anyway, this is kind of a sampling of the kinds of things that Dovan had to watch for in his assembly, apparently. It seems like every mother comes to business. I'm going to skip a little bit, but do not open your mouth wide and try to eat huge spoonfuls so that extra food falls down into your balls or leaves a mess on your spoon. Buddha said, while waiting to eat, do not open up your mouth. Also, do not speak while food is in your mouth. Buddha said, do not cover your rice with soup, vegetables, or other side dishes, hoping to get more. This should be studied. Buddha said, when eating, do not cluck your tongue or audibly clear your throat. Do not puff on your food to warm it or blow on your food to cool it off. Please also abstain from this. Anyway, some of those are kind of humorous, but the feeling is to conduct oneself with dignity.

[16:30]

Japanese Soto Shu, in some branches anyway, in the Hashimoto Ekko branch that Kiri Roshi was from, particularly Narasaki Ika Roshi, who died recently, wrote the foreword for this, and he talks about this teaching that dignified manner is Buddha Dharma. Decorum is the essential teaching. Because it takes mindfulness to have dignity. I don't think it's the dignity that matters. Well, mindfulness is part of it. There is a tradition of outrageous monks, you know. It's harder to pull that one off, I guess. But... I don't know, what do you have against dignity? I think it's a... Well, the form isn't exactly dignity, but yeah, the form develops dignity.

[18:00]

Well, this is from Tetsugikai Daisho, who's two generations after Dogen, and says, dignified manner is Buddhadharma. Decorum is the essential teaching. So I think this is really hard for us to hear. I don't know. I mean, I have problems with it, too. What you just read, do you have problems with it? This is on Roman numeral 10. I'll read the whole quote. This is written by Tetsugikai and recorded by Tetsugikai. He was supposedly saying this to Koen Echodayasha, who was Dogen's successor, and Tetsugikai studied with him, too. In fact, that's an interesting story. Tetsugikai had studied with Dogen, but Dogen never quite approved, acknowledged him completely, never gave the Dharma transmission. and that he was too clever. But he later became Koen Ejo's successor, and then there was all kinds of trouble at Eheji during that time, and we don't really know what was going on.

[19:09]

He ended up leaving Eheji and founding his own temple. And he was the teacher of Keizan Joken, who was kind of considered the second founder. Anyway, Tetsugekai said to Koen Ejo, I heard our late master Dogen Zenji espouse the teaching that the manners and conduct we follow now in this monastery are nothing other than the affair of Buddhas and the Buddhadharma itself. Nevertheless, in my private thoughts, I still believed that there was a true Buddhadharma other than that. However, recently I revised my view. Now I understand that the manners and dignified actions in the monastery are exactly the true Buddhadharma. Even though there are limitless forms of Buddhadharma shown by Buddhas and ancestors, They are all this one color of Buddhadharma. Other than the present dignified decorum of Buddha in raising our arms and moving our legs, in other words, in everyday activity, there could be no principle of the profound Buddha nature. I honestly believe this truth." So, it's hard for us to hear.

[20:15]

Just, you know, because we have this attitude about... He's not saying that rules and forms the Buddha Dharma, but this dignified manner. I don't think he's saying that. What do you think he's saying? I hear him saying there are many varieties of texts. This is one variety. But he says they're all, OK. Well, let's try it. But he says they are all this one color of Buddha Dharma. OK. An interpretation of one color could be dignity or it could be something else. Certainly the examples he gives, I mean the stories I want to go over today also and the stories we talked about last time, there's an aspect of wildness too. So I don't know, we might consider, how many of you read Gary Snyder's Practice of the Wild? It's a wonderful book, very helpful.

[21:18]

That sense of wildness I think maybe doesn't necessarily, you know, is totally in accord with this dignified manner that Tetsugikai and Dogen talked about. Wild, like untamed, spontaneous? Or wild, like unruly? Wild, like inconceivable. Wild, like wilderness. I mean, he spends a whole book full of essays unpacking what he means, so it's hard for me to say much. Yeah, all of those meanings. that it's not, like he talks about language being wild, a wild system, a wilderness system. In other words, it's not, even though we have rules of grammar, language is not a product of rules and children learn languages through some wilderness system that we can't begin to explain. Anyway, there's a way in which

[22:20]

It seems to me, I think what you said, Kirk, is useful, that this dignified manner allows us to feel that inner vitality. It's a way of, it's a tool, in a sense. And yet there's a way in which the Japanese monks, Japanese Soto monks, anyway, believe this, that dignified manner itself is the Buddha Dharma. I mean, they take that quite literally, whatever that's worth. And I think that maybe has something to do with their being able to hear that in a very literal way is maybe easier in their culture than it would be for us. You know what I mean?

[23:46]

But at the time— Well, okay, but then you used the word freedom, and I want to point to something that Ed Brown says in the other foreword. I have two forewords to this book, one by this Japanese monk and one by Ed Brown. Freedom, I think, is the American— Well, no, freedom is Japanese, too. Freedom is not American or Japanese, but we mean something real different. and particularly about eating forms, for example. Ed says he was doing a Zen and psychoanalysis workshop with Andrei Patsalidis, who pointed out that cultures with eating rituals have fewer eating disorders than cultures which are lacking in eating rituals. Seemingly our preference is to be free to have our disorders rather than to work within the context of structure. These forms are more like freedom to fully enact forms, rather than freedom from forms, or rather than freedom to be, you know, we have this idea of wild, which is not necessarily what Gary Snyder's talking about.

[25:00]

We think, we want to be free from, and we imagine restraint, and so people come to a place like Reengulch, or Tassajara, and see all these forms, and feel like they're being imposed on, And actually, these are tools, as you said, to be to find a deeper freedom. It's not a matter of external forms. We also want to be free from our heavy desires and people choosing these kind of things. Our form is intentionally made to see we see in the Arab-Ireland way that we want to do it. Right.

[26:02]

Like self-awareness. Right. It's something to see. It's a way of seeing yourself. It's a tool to see yourself. There are times, even in Gary Snyder's poems, but other places too, where you see something somebody has written and it doesn't look like a poem at all. I understand it by knowing it, by approaching it, and seeing that this really is grammar. It's just kind of playful, or whatever. Twisted a little bit, tweaked a little bit. But I don't know if that's the sense that you get from... I don't know, I like the metaphor you used, but we can drop it if you want, but... I don't know if that's the sense you get from, you know, the forms of... that never looks different from the form that comes in. But actually, if you can do the dance, and this is true not just of Oyoki, it's true of a lot of Japanese aesthetical ways, tea ceremony is a good example.

[27:13]

How many here? You do tea, anybody else here? That's the kind of, I don't know how long it takes to actually learn the form well enough to feel free in it. I could do it that long because I couldn't sit still. So, perfecting the form is a kind of freedom. Japanese monks' emphasis on dignified manner and decorum, there's kind of this endless refinement. Oryoki can be very subtle. the levels of subtlety of Oryoki eating and Zendo are endless. So you can never quite... there's always more refinements than one can have. So in that sense, just to take on that kind of dignified manner is an endless way of studying yourself. And, you know, I agreed with what you were saying, Kirk, but I think there is something about this kind of dignified manner that's more than just a tool.

[28:23]

And I don't know how to say that, or what to say about that exactly. But that, you know, I think for the examples from last week, Fushan and Uzu, even in the midst of being expelled from the temple, they kept this amazing dignity about them. One sees that at least in the stories. So that's something. Yeah, the distinction between attitudinal and the practice. Not really a distinction, but beginning is for second class. This is about both the attitude and... There's the procedure and there's the attitude. So all of these are attitudinal instructions. I think that's... So I was going to look at a few stories tonight that in a sense, give us a little different side or twist to the stories from last time. Let's see which one to do first.

[29:25]

Let's do the longer one first. These are both stories about people who were, one is about a director, the other's about a tenzo, and then if we have time, we'll do a story about a work reader. And these are stories about monks who were in a particular position and dug extra, praising them as exemplars of that position, but they were, at the same time, very earnestly seeking the way. And it's interesting that a lot of the stories in, so this is in the last section, in Standards for the Temple Administrators, and a lot of the stories are from the Rinzai lineage, a few from the central lineage, and there's this kind of feeling of, not exactly getting Kensho, but of a kind of, little bit of this ball of doubt, kind of searching for the truth, more than is usually emphasized in Sutra, or that we think of as emphasized in Sutra. But something about the spirit of the monks in these stories is worth considering.

[30:35]

So the first story is on page 133, and this is about Yang Chi, who was founder of one of the two main lineages later in the Rinzai lineage. Zen Master Yang Chi followed Siming. As Siming moved from Nanyuan to Daowu and then Xishuang, these are different mountains and temples, Yang Chi always helped supervise temple affairs. So he was the director, what we call now Papa Director. Although he had been with Siming for a long time, Yang Chi still had not yet aroused realization. So he still didn't quite get it, the story goes. Whenever he made inquiries, Simming said, whenever Yang-chi made inquiries, Simming said, director, go for now and attend to the profusion of affairs. So that's right there, that's a great line. Director, go for now and attend to the many affairs. That's really enough right there.

[31:36]

We don't have to read anymore. Anyway, another day, Yang-chi again asked, Simming's reply was as before. He also added, Director, sometime your descendants will spread widely under heaven. What use is it to be in such a hurry? So that's the beginning of the story. Then there was an old woman who resided near the temple. Nobody could fathom her understanding. She was called Old Lady Simming. And as mentioned in the note, we don't really know what their relationship was, but they were obviously good friends. Anyway, whenever Siming could find the time, he would visit her. One day it began to rain. Knowing that Siming was about to go out, Yang Qi watched for him on a small trail. As soon as he appeared, Yang Qi finally grabbed and held Siming and said, this old man today must reveal it for me. If it is not revealed, I will beat you. So there are lots of stories about teachers hitting students, but here's a, Today we're going to talk about students beating up teachers.

[32:39]

Simmings said, Director, knowing this kind of affair, just take a rest. This is another great statement. Director, knowing this kind of affair, just take a rest. So he's talking to the director of the monastery who takes, I don't know how big Simmings Monastery was, but it was not real small. So there are lots of things to take care of. So this was obviously a very able monk. So Siming said to Yangtze director, knowing this kind of affair, just take a rest. Before he finished speaking, Yangtze was greatly enlightened and did a prostration in the muddy path. He arose and asked, how is it when we encounter each other on the narrow path? Siming said, you should just step aside. I want to go over there. This is also a great statement. All of Yang-chi's siming statements in this are just very, lots of overtones.

[33:42]

Yang-chi went back to the monastery. The next day, with full ceremony, Yang-chi visited the abbot's room and made prostrations in gratitude. Siming scolded him, saying, not yet. One day, there was a scheduled dharma meeting with the teacher. For a long while after breakfast, the drum signal was not heard. Yangtze went and asked Siming Dzongkha, why don't you hit the drum for today's meeting? And Yangtze said, the high priest Siming left and has not yet returned. So here all the monks are waiting for the teacher to show up for this dharma talk. I'm not sure if this was a dharma talk or more like a question and answer, very formal question and answer meeting. Yang Chi took the trail to the old woman's place and saw Simmings tending the stove while the old lady was cooking gruel. Yang Chi said, Teacher, the Great Assembly has been waiting for a long time today for the Dharma meeting. Why don't you come back? Simmings said, If you can give me one turning word, I'll return right away.

[34:45]

If you cannot, then everyone there should leave east or west. So there's a fair amount of pressure there. Yong, she covered his head with his bamboo hat for traveling and took several steps away. Simin was greatly delighted, and after all, they returned together. So it was a happy ending. After this, whenever Simin went playing out of the mountain, Yong, she carefully watched him leave. And even if it was evening when he returned, Yong, she would always hit the drum to gather the assembly. Siming, having suddenly returned, angrily said, how did you get this regulation of giving a lecture in the evening at a small monastery? Yangji answered, after Fenyang's evening meetings. And Fenyang was Siming's teacher. So Yangji knew what he was talking about. How can you say this is not the regulation? Now in monasteries, there are still dharma meetings after an enju ceremony on three and eight days originating from this. Do all of you know about an enju ceremony? We have that at Tassajara.

[35:47]

We have it at Green Gulch too, right, on three and eight days? Before day off. Thursday. So it's only during practice period though, right? Yeah. Charlie, why don't you explain Nenju for people who haven't experienced it. What does it mean? Mindful, literally, the word Nen for Nenju is Well, I'll read what I wrote in the glossary back here, and you can describe it. Literally, remembrance chanting, the ceremony and afternoons of days ending with three or eight and the date still held in modern times in social monasteries. In this ceremony, the names of Buddha are chanted, and then all the monks circumambulate the Soto to reenact their entry into the monastery and refresh their intentions. In Dogen's time, evening meeting was held after nenju, but commonly today this is followed by the hosan procedure, which is described in one of the other essays.

[36:55]

Releasing the monks from evening meeting and signaling was somewhat relaxed for a nine-day schedule. I also got the impression it was kind of like bowing to all the other people in the assembly. So tell me about what it feels like to you, your experience, your sense of its meaning. for doing this with all of us for a week. And also kind of a, and a ho-san, I guess it's not really part of the ceremony, but at the end there's a loud shout of, ho-san!

[38:00]

And then a series of bells go off, and it's like you get a break for a day. That same thing that we do at Tassajara, that hosan that you're describing, is described in detail by Dogen at the end of, is it The Model for Engaging the Way? Yeah, page 73. So that's a very traditional ceremony. And yeah, it's, in a way, it's worth just saying a little bit more about, because it is kind of, in a sense, one of the ceremonial enactments of our community-ness, you know? I don't know, what do you think about it, Bob, about the ninja ceremony? It's pretty moving, because it's a sort of appreciation of everybody. It's like a feeling, it's kind of like a monk's entering ceremony, a guardian ceremony, so there's a sense of valuing everybody's effort, and appreciating other people and being appreciated.

[39:07]

that people can do their own stuff. And there's also that aspect about the future. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. And that's all of that that we do at Tassajara. Do we do the same form, basically, at Green Gulch? I don't know that I've ever seen them. I never did a practice period here, so I don't know. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But it's also, I feel like not only that incorporates, I'll say, the lineage, because you also offer incense. and bow at the altar, or in the direction of the altar. Right. And then... And you chant the names, the ten names of Buddha in the beginning. And then to everybody. And before all of that, you chant the names, right, the ten names of Buddha. So, it seems like it's, it's like all the ten times or something. Right. In that ceremony. And then it's kind of interesting because there's no... Bon Jovi or something to signal people, but this one you just have to be there.

[40:22]

There's no time and there's no signal. Everyone's standing there for a long time silently. So it's kind of different from other ceremonies. It has this fresh feeling. What do you think, Kurt? And waiting outside for it to start in silence, in the cold, in a dignified posture. You're waiting. Instead of going into the zendo, you usually go into the zendo and await. And there's a great dedication to practicing if your head's on fire.

[41:47]

Right. Oh yeah, the chapter. Like a fish in a pond. How it might end. Twenty-five centuries, eighty-six years ago. It's kind of like an encouragement to practice too. But it also includes the rest. Yeah, well, apparently... So, part of what's happening in this story is that after... And apparently, at Dogen's time, after there was still... So, the hosan means that there's no release. Literally, it means liberation or release. Release from san, release from dharma meaning. So, it meant there was no dharma meaning that evening, originally. That's what hosan means. But this story is about how, because Siming, it seems like Siming didn't like, or Yangchi didn't like his teacher Siming going off and visiting his girlfriend or whatever, and so he started having these drama meetings and ringing the bell for drama meetings after the Nenju.

[43:00]

So, and apparently still at Dogen's time, there were drama meetings after Nenju. So they did the Hosan. So his description of the Hosan is, it's not, It's not really clear when there was hosan and when there wasn't. He describes the hosan procedure the same way we do it. But at any rate, this particular story is about how there was not hosan after these ninjus. Actually, at Hazara it's different than here, because hosan goes into the day off. I mean, ninju goes into the day off, but there it's after the day off. No, it's a three-day thing. But I mean, after that you go to class and then doesn't it start the... Yeah, but I mean, then we go right into the schedule. You have an evening class on 3-8th day? Is that right? Right. And then it goes back into the schedule. Well, that's like this tradition from Fenyang. Yeah, but you have a... Oh, I see. Like there, it seems like we just, let's say, you have either breakfast, and then everybody just goes into their day off.

[44:02]

Yeah. And then we have Nanju, and it starts everything up again, doesn't it? Nanju's on 3-day days, and days off are 4-9 days. Right, it's before. Oh, I see. But here you have Nanju Thursday, before... At noon, yeah. Yeah, so that's before the evening off. So, that's more like a real Nassau. Yeah. Because you don't have a class that evening. Anyway, so for those of you who've never seen this, this may sound baffling, but anyway, this particular ceremony that he's talking about is the ceremony of everybody bowing to everybody in the monastery. Everybody bowing to everybody, and then everybody being bowed to by everybody, both. And also incorporating the 10 Buddhas before Buddha, or 10 names of Buddha, and the lineage, and the teacher. When I first went to Tassajara, I always thought it was kind of, I don't know, I didn't like standing out. I mean, I'm glad that you all got it so quickly.

[45:06]

It took me a while before I learned to appreciate and enjoy. It was all those people that came before us. I see. So we could just step into appreciation. Yeah. So anyway, there's this weird story about this teacher going off and And this guy, Young, he was saying he was going to beat up his teacher if he didn't tell him what was going on. And the teacher said, director, knowing this kind of affair, just take a rest. And he got it. I don't know. I think there's a lot in this story. I don't know. Does anybody have anything to say? Should I read it again? I think so. OK. Let me read the whole story again. Zen master Yang Chi followed Siming, since he was a student of Siming. But he also followed him as Siming moved to different temples. Yang Chi always helped supervise temple affairs. Although he had been with Siming for a long time, Yang Chi still had not yet aroused realization.

[46:11]

Whenever he made inquiries, Siming said, director, go for now and attend to the profusion of affairs. One day, Yang Chi again asked, And he's asking for what is the meaning of the rooted armor or something like that. He doesn't say it specifically, but he wanted to understand. So there's a spirit of seeking the way that we see in Simeon. Simeon's reply was as before, he also added, Director, sometime your descendants will spread widely under heaven. What uses it to be in such a hurry? which is I think a way of saying that she had great understanding. So a lot of times, we had that one story about the nun, Mo Shan, and the monk who came and tested her, and who ended up being her student. Anyway, this is a case of many stories about women in the old Chinese patriarchal culture.

[47:20]

The women adepts are kind of living outside the monastery and they end up showing up, a lot of the monks. Anyway, apparently this woman had great understanding and she was called Old Lady Siming. Whenever Siming could find the time, he would visit her. One day it began to rain. Knowing that Siming was about to go out, Yongqi watched for him on a small trail. As soon as he appeared, Yongqi finally grabbed and held Siming and said, this old man today must reveal it for me. If it is not revealed, I will beat you. Siming said, Director, knowing this kind of affair, just take a rest. And before he finished saying it, Yongqi was greatly enlightened and did a prostration of the body. So here's this student who's kind of relentlessly seeking understanding. And Simming gives him his kind of granting way at this point.

[48:23]

He says, as if you already know this kind of affair. You already know how to take care of it. Just take a rest. So this is, anyway, this is a great student. Then Yang Chi, the student, got up and said, how is it when we encounter each other on the narrow paths? And he said, you should just step aside. I want to go over there. Yang Chi went back to the monastery the next day with full ceremony. Before we go on, any comments about this? What do you think, Shirley? But the first time, he said, he said, you should just take care of the profusion of air. And then maybe he thought that that was the way. And then the next time, he turned it around and said, just take a rest.

[49:24]

Yeah. It's on both sides. It also sounds like he's probably told me to take care of affairs about a thousand times, and it was always when he was saying, what's the dharma? What's the dharma? What's the dharma? Take care of affairs. Just take care. Well, take care of affairs. But this time he's saying, what is it? What is it? And he's saying, take a rest. It reminds me of this story. I don't know if it's in the sci-fi. Hopefully not. I think it was the story of one of his awakening. He was a young monk in China or Taiwan, practicing it. And he had the same sort of attitude, like he wanted to find out all the answers. And he was sitting next to this old monk Maybe it was a night when no one else was around, so he could whisper to him.

[50:38]

And he asked him some Dharma questions. And the monk said, he didn't answer right away. He said, is that all this or anything else you want to know? And so he proceeded to, like, whisper all these questions, all these burning questions that he had. It went on and on. And then the monk finally said, when he was all ready and thought he was going to get the big answer to all of them, the monk said, just calm down. And that was it. It's like Ananda and Mahakasyapa. Yeah. There's a story about a monk that came to the temple and wanted to ask about the Buddha Dharma, and the attendant went and told the abbot. And the abbot and the teacher said, please go offer him a cup of tea.

[51:41]

Just go give him a cup of tea. Have a cup of tea? Yeah. And then the attendant came back and asked the same thing. He said, he came and asked you, or he re-asked the question. He offered him, or he said, please go have a cup of tea. is to me, is this story. Yeah, that was Jojo. Was it Jojo? Yeah. And it seems like he was giving him the answer to his question each time, all along. And it's like, you're cold, go sit where it's warm. There's also this thing, though, about self and other here. Universal and phenomenal. Taking care of affairs. Affairs means the phenomenal world. So this is also about community and Sangha and how do we take care of the world. So this monk wasn't the director.

[52:42]

He was already taking care of this, even if it was a small monastery relatively, it was a complex event that he was managing. Teacher doesn't really do much of the taking care of. daily stuff. It depends on the teacher, but it seemed like a young, she was probably supervising most of the temple business. But, you know, if this had been a monk who was, you know, just focusing on sitting zazen, maybe you would have told him to go and take care of, you know, do a better job of taking care of cleaning the temple. Anyway... But that's kind of like saying, what do you call the world? Yeah. Well, the point is that he was taking care of affairs, and the teacher said, take care of affairs. Right. And at some point... Just this person. Yeah. At the point at which the student was saying, if you don't tell me, I'm going to beat you up, he said, knowing this kind of affair, just take a rest.

[53:48]

It reminds me of one where a student has been studying a long time of deep inner inquiry, takes the same energy as teacher again, asking questions. And the teacher says, you've been sincerely looking within you long enough, now turn it around. Yeah, that's the same. That's at least one way to look at this. Right. Yeah. And Yanchi was ready, you know, he got it and dove right into the mud. Yeah, but until you're ready, maybe they'll tell you to work harder. So then this question, how was it when we encounter each other on the narrow path? And the teacher just said, you should just step aside.

[54:53]

I want to go over there. That seems like the same answer as go for now and attend to the profusion of affairs, to me. I think that is the same. I don't know. Yeah. Let me attend to my affairs. Yeah. There's a lot of ways to read that. Part of it, this just episode is like, you should just follow your own way. But there's also, I don't know, this may be too, reading too much into it or too tricky or something, but this over there implies kind of enlightenment as opposed to taking care of the world, absolute as opposed to the phenomenal. The question being asked is a question about the absolute.

[55:56]

If we're ultimately not separate, how can we actually meet each other as separate beings in the path? Right. So in a way you say, follow your path and let me follow mine. Yeah. So let us be. But there are lots of different overtones to this. Can I order some others? So there's lots of different... What do you think? He's asking a question about the absolute and the response uses the relative terms of you and I. You go over there, I go this way. So how is it when we encounter each other, how is it when we actually meet on this spiritual And he says, you should just step aside. I want to go over there.

[56:58]

So it's also putting yourself aside. I don't know. It can be turned in lots of ways. Or we can show our own path. And that's how we meet. Stop following me around. But the question is, how do we meet? And that's how we meet. But also, part of this thing about Koan language is that there's these different levels, there's just multiple levels of discourse going on, and it works on the very conventional level of, leave me alone, I want to go over and visit my friend. And there's this other level that's, and all those different levels are working at the same time, when these people are talking together. So the next part of the story is the student, Yang Chi, comes over and makes a big ceremony.

[58:00]

They're going to the Abba's room and making prostrations. And as if he understood something, as if there was something to understand, Siming scolded him, saying, not yet. Then there's this story about Siming not showing up at this dharma talk. He was at a dharma meeting he was supposed to lead. One day there was a scheduled dharma meeting with a teacher. For a long while after breakfast, the drum signal was not heard to begin the meeting. Yang Chi asked Siming's Anjun, his assistant, why don't you hit the drum for today's meeting? Biyang Yi said, the high priest, Siming, left and has not yet returned. Yang Chi took the trail to the old woman's place and saw Siming tending the stove while the old lady was cooking gruel, this domestic scene. Yang Chi said, teacher, the great assembly has been waiting for a long time today for the dharma meeting. Why don't you come back? And this part of the story is just pretty cool. Simming said, if you can give me one turning word, I'll return right away. If you cannot, then everyone there should leave East or West.

[59:01]

Basically, he's saying, you have to say something right now, or else I'm just not going to go back. And all those monks can just disperse. So he's really, you know, it's like, and Yang Chi covered his head with his bamboo hat and took several steps as if he was leaving. So how do you understand Yang Chi's answer? It says Siming was greatly delighted, and after all, they returned together. Bob? He's already failed as far as he can, so it's kind of beyond success and failure. He doesn't need to worry about whether he got the right answer. Yeah. I think that's the main meaning, yeah. I mean, Siming wasn't concerned about I mean, Yang Chi, the student, said, okay. And he just left. It wasn't discriminating.

[60:04]

I mean, he just did it. He was just following his own path. It's kind of like the one where the monk kicked over the bottle. Yeah, which is the story two before this, actually. Yeah, that story's in here, too. Very good. In fact, that's the story not just before this, but—no, actually, that's the story after—is that the story after this question? That's a long story, so I wasn't sure if we could get to it, but that's also a really good story. Do they actually be read as separate coins? You mean like in this story where there's several different episodes? Yeah. It's possible to read back and say that he tried to bow and was sent away, as if he'd gotten what the teacher said when he said, you go over there.

[61:09]

And then when he goes to this old woman's house, he's finally showing that he got it by going over there. Does that make sense? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, but generally, I think any way you read a koan is relevant. So these stories are stories in which sometimes the teacher says something and then it says the student responded such and such, and sometimes there are months or years between one statement and the next, even though it reads as if they were like, immediate, sometimes it is immediate. So how, so there are lots of stories where part of, where there's a long story and only part of it is chosen in a given Koan collection to be the Koan. So this is, and there are lots of examples in this particular text, this case he gives the long version of the story.

[62:15]

There's other stories in here that he gives a very short version of, and other places there are longer versions of the same story. It seems like it adds a whole other context, too, to have these different stories about the same characters, because you get to know the characters a little bit, and they interact in a certain way, and there's certain patterns. Right, and this, so this particular koan collection, the Pure Standards for the Temple Administrators, I think is unique in that it focuses in a certain way on the attitude towards, you know, universal liberation or community practice or sangha. And it's kind of arranged by the position of the people, although, you know, in a sense, this story does have something to do with the fact that he was the director, but it's not, you know, it's not as specifically I guess he might have been the Eno, although it does have something to do with the fact that he was a director. But Yang Chi, there's other things about Yang Chi later on in this collection.

[63:24]

So yes, there's several, some of the people in some of these stories, there are several stories about. I just came across, A little before this, there's a short story. You could say more about this. Let me just read Dogan's commentary on it. Because Charlie's here. In ancient times, there was only the kansu. So the kansu was the director, originally. And in this text, he's talking about four positions, the director, the ino, the tenzo, and the work leader. But we talk about, at Tassajara, we still talk about the rokuchiji, the six temple administrators. And of course, there are others, like mill managers and rice cooks and stuff. But the main people are now in Dogen's system. Well, he says, in ancient times, there was only the kansu. These days, the titled susu director is used for the former kansu, from which also the positions of fusu, treasurer, which is the position Charlie's doing now here, and kansu, assistant director.

[64:29]

So actually, this position of director that Yangji was doing in Dogen's time had been divided into three, because once the monasteries got too big, it was a job that they needed three people to do. So there's the director, the assistant director, and the treasurer were all part of the, divided up from what formerly was the director. Dogen says, in modern times, meaning the 13th century, temples have a profusion of tasks, and so appoint two or three consular administrators. Xuan Su was another story, and Yang Chi clarified the great matter. Right when they were directors, know the reward for the effort of being a director. Truly, in recent times, an abbot such as Yang Chi is difficult to find in all the ten directions. In other words, even an abbot such as Yang Chi is difficult to find. So he's praising him for his earnest practice of the way, even while he's in this position.

[65:31]

And he's even implying that now it takes three people to do this position that Yang Chi was doing all by himself. And so Charlie's doing one-third of what Yang-chi did. Of course, Greenville's is probably more complicated than Simming's temple was because— They didn't have computers. They didn't have computers and, you know, they didn't speak English and all these problems. Anyway, okay, I was going to read another story about a student beating up a teacher, but I just happened to see this one little story that's like really cool, so I'm going This is about Guishan, who was the guy who kicked over the pitcher. This is on the bottom of page 131. And here is an example of a temple administrator intimately meeting together with a teacher. And so this is a story about Guishan after he kicked over the pitcher and became the abbot of Guishan Monastery.

[66:37]

Actually, he was the founder of one of the five houses of Chan in China. But for a long time after he kicked over the pitcher and was living alone on top of this mountain, it says in the story later on that he lived on... I'll just read the very end of that story. Finally, Ling Yu, that later became Guishan, was dispatched to Mount Gui. This mountain was high and steep, far beyond the smoke of homes. Lingyu had gibbons and other monkeys for companions and horse chestnuts and other nuts for food. The people living at the foot of the mountain gradually came to know him. Together with some monks, they finally built a practice hall. Anyway, eventually some students from all over the country converged there. So this is after he's become a great teacher, but for a long time he was just living on nuts and berries and stuff. What a dear.

[67:37]

and deer, there were probably deer as well as monkeys, yeah. Okay, so the great Guishan one day called for the director. The director came and Guishan said, I called for the director, why did you come? The director did not respond. Also Guishan had the Jisha call for the head monk. The head monk came and Guishan said, I called for the head monk, why did you come? The head monk did not respond. So there's a commentary on this by It's funny, by Saoshan and Fayan, their comments. Saoshan is Dongshan's student, so he was kind of a co-founder of the Chinese Soto lineage. Saoshan later answered on behalf of the director, as if he had been the director at the time, I know the teacher did not call me. On behalf of the head monk, he answered, if you had had the Jisha call, perhaps I would not have come. Faoyan, who was founder of one of the other five houses in China, answered differently.

[68:38]

I just heard that you should call. Turning over the single circumstance of this story, you must directly investigate the bloodline of temple administrators and monastic departments. So I don't want to say anything about that story, but I just couldn't resist reading it. What do you think, Kirk? So how are we? Hey, you. Yeah. Shall I read that again? Did you get that? This is a great story. It's really a great story. It really is. The Great Greyshawn one day called for the director. The director came and Greyshawn said, I called for the director. Why did you come? The director did not respond. Also, Guishan had the Jisha call for the head monk. The head monk came and Guishan said, I called for the head monk, why did you come? The head monk did not respond. So, okay, there's... I don't know what to say about this.

[69:50]

Guishan's obviously having fun. But also this has to do with person and position and question and response. Question in response to this chapter because it kind of has to do with what the position is compared to the person. There's the position and there's the person. So he calls the director and this monk shows up and he said, why are you here? I called for the director. And so it's, he's, and a lot of these stories are about people who, while they were director, while they were Tenzo, were also diligently pursuing their own way on their own, in the middle of those jobs. So it's about identifying with the role? That's in there. So then we have these two commentaries to work with, Sao Chan, and these are by two of the great monks of Chan history, Sao Chan, who's the one who developed the five ranks, later answered on behalf of the director, I know the teacher did not call me.

[70:58]

So, okay, so that would be, so that says if Guishan called the director and he showed up and the director came and Guishan said, I called for the director, why did you come? And Session would have answered, I know the teacher did not call me. That's right. And then the other one, Guishan had the Jisha call for the head monk. The head monk came and Guishan said, I called for the head monk. Why did you come? And Saoshun says he would have answered, of course, this is a century later or something. Actually, no. Anyway, it might have only been five or 10 years later. Saoshun said, on behalf of the head monk, he would have said, if you had the Jisha call, perhaps I would not have come. So he did have the jishya call, and he did come. Fayan answered differently, though. Fayan is a very straightforward guy.

[72:00]

He said, I just heard the jishya call. So there he is. Turning over this single circumstance, Dogen says, you must directly investigate the bloodline of temple administrators and monastic department heads. So here's another story about the bloodline. By the way, just this thing about temple administrators and monastic department heads, for those of you who know some of the positions in this and other temples, the temple administrators refer to those six positions I was talking about. And I guess we don't have a Tassajara, an assistant director, we put the shikha in with those six. Oh, they changed it? Oh, when did that change? Yeah, but there's also this thing of department heads, the choshu, and those are six positions also, and those six are the shuso, the head scribe secretary, which is called shoki, but I think it's kind of like, at least partly, what the benji does at Tassahara.

[73:10]

Do we have a benji at Green Gulch? The benji is the assistant of the head monk or shuso. So this person called the shoki back in Dogen's time was the head scribe and secretary, but they also sat next to the shuso and helped the shuso. Then the third one is the librarian, is the third of these department heads. The sheik is the fourth. The bath attendant, we have that at Tassajara, is the fifth. And the chidin, who's the Buddha hall manager, is the sixth. So anyway, there are all these different positions in the monastery. That's interesting, it's not tenzo or ino? Well no, the tenzo and the ino are part of the chiji. So there's two different groups of six positions. There's the chiji, which is the director, assistant director, and treasurer, and then the tenzo, ino, and work leader. I see. Those are the chiji, the temple administrators, and what I translate as

[74:11]

monastic department heads are these choshu, or the head monk, the secretary, librarian, guest manager, bath attendant, and chidin, or buddha. Another thing about nenju, too, is that the chiji stands separately before the ceremonial walks in first. Actually, we do this for nenju. We have the choshu. It's the same thing. At least we used to at Tassahara. The chiji on one side and the choshu on the other. Then the Doan. Do you know the word Doan? How many of you have heard the word Doan? This is the people who ring the bells and do the various functions in the Zen Do. And literally, they are the Inos, the Inos Anjos. Doan is an abbreviation for... Do is for... Anyway, but they're literally the Eno's, Anja's.

[75:16]

An is short for Anja. Anyway, all this esoterica. An Eno can't be in all places at once. Right, okay. So the next story that I was going to read again is about a Tenzo beating up a teacher. So Zen Master, this is on page 138. Tenzo's got a lot of weapons too. Yeah, it's true. So we did a lot of Tenzo stories last time, but here's another one. Zen master Zhang Yuan, Zhang Xing, was Tenzo in the assembly of Dao Wu, Yuan Ji. And for those of you who know our lineage, Dao Wu is the brother of Wen Gan Dong Zhou, who is Dong Shan's teacher. One day he accompanied Dao Wu on a condolence visit to a deceased supporter's house. Zhong Xing slapped the coffin with his hand and said, alive or dead?

[76:18]

Da Wu said, I do not say alive, I do not say dead. Zhong Xing said, why don't you say? Da Wu said, I won't say, I won't say. After the visit, as they were returning back to the temple, Zhong Xing said, High Priest, you must tell me. If you still will not say that, I'll beat you up. Da Wu said, strike me if you'd like, but I won't stay alive. I won't stay dead. Zhang Xing finally hit Da Wu with a number of punches. Da Wu returned to the temple, but made Zhang Xing leave, saying, you had better go for a little while, because after the director finds out, he will attack you. I mean, Da Wu seems thoroughly unfazed by having been punched down. Zhang Xing then bowed and left and went to visit Qi Shuang. Here's a case where, according to another version of the story, he arrived at Xishuang's... Xishuang is another great Zen teacher who was the Dharma brother of Dawu, the first teacher.

[77:27]

And according to a different version of the story, he arrived at Xishuang's some six years later, so we don't know what he did in between. There he brought up the matter of the previous conversation which ended up with his hitting Dawu. Then Zhongxing said, now I ask you to tell me, Xishuang said, don't you see that Daowu is dead? I do not say alive, I do not say dead. At that, Zhongqing was greatly awakened and he offered a memorial meal in repentance to Daowu. And he's listed as a Dharma heir of Daowu. So this is a real interesting story. And Dogen cites this guy as an example of a great Tenzo. So this story in particular doesn't have anything to do with his functioning as Tenzo directly anyway. He had to punch with his nails, right? So what Dogen later says, Zhang Yuan's functioning is an excellent example whose ancient remains we should admire.

[78:31]

So this is not to encourage you to go beat up the teacher. This is just... I don't know. What do you think about this? Dan, you look, like, perplexed. There's a crack in the picture there. Yeah, the white one. The white one? Oh, yeah. Anybody else? I don't get it. It seems it may be too simple. Yes, too simple, it's true. So he didn't understand what his teacher said.

[79:39]

Well, do you understand the question? It's a lighter day? Yeah. Yeah. What's the question? Who? Yeah, that's one question. What about you? Well that was that I won't say a lie but I won't say dead. So part of the thing of all these stories is that all these stories, if you just read them as historical artifacts, that's besides the point. If these were just stories from history, I don't know, I don't think they would have been studied for a thousand years. It seems like saying, I won't say alive, I won't say dead, I would understand that as denial.

[80:45]

Did you say at the beginning, I won't stay alive? You said, I won't stay alive, I won't stay dead. I won't stay alive, I won't stay dead. The last word, it says, I don't stay alive, I don't stay dead. I don't know. I think I may have just translated it differently. You could translate it either way. I do not stay alive, I do not stay dead. I don't think the original is different. But actually there was a reason I translated it that way. Don't you see the Taoist said, I do not say alive, I do not say dead. It could be read either way. I won't say, I don't say, I don't say. Good. Well, it's kind of like, I don't say it exists, I don't say it doesn't exist. Good. Yes. Okay. Right. It's kind of like Gandhi, isn't it?

[81:54]

I want to double check something here. And then he's still looking for the answer, it seems like, six years later or whatever it is, still wants to know alive or dead. Well, the irony is he gets it from a Dharma brother. You know, actually, I'm sorry, I had that wrong. It was another student of Daowu, an older student of Daowu, not a Dharma brother of Daowu, excuse me. So the guy he goes to, who says, don't you see that Daowu said, I do not stay alive, I do not stay dead, was also a student, an older student of Daowu.

[83:00]

Yeah, so, so, Xu Shang understands it from Daowu's student, but not from Daowu. Right, well let's kind of comment, there are lots of stories about teachers sending students to other teachers. or teachers understanding, students understanding something their teacher said, you know, later, much later. One thing, though, that is relevant, I think, is that Xishuang, this guy Xishuang, is the one who was famous for, later, when he was a teacher, his assembly was called the Dead Tree Hall. They're the ones who sat, they sat up all night, never lay down. And they sat so still that they were called the Dead Tree Hall. He won't stop you. Now there's, you can go to the city of 10,000 Buddhas up in Ukiah, and they still do that practice, the Chinese monks there.

[84:02]

Oh yeah. They sleep sitting up. But I've heard that they also sit sleeping. So, I mean, they also sleep when they're sitting. So, I don't know. Oh, I'm not, I'm not. Well, yeah, I mean, anybody can do that, right? Work all day, but, you know, going to burn up the fish once I have the day off. Yeah. Well, I, yeah, I don't know if I should tell the story of when I cracked my knee sitting up all night for sashimi. Anyway, um, but sitting up all night, you know, it's good practice. But anyway, this is, uh, do they still do that at Tassajara during, uh, do they have late night sitting? Just at Rahasa? Norman does it as often as possible. It's a really nice time though because you've been sitting all day and then it's a little quieter, not everybody's there and you can sit right. We used to do it as this competitive, you know, macho thing that was really disgusting.

[85:04]

No clothes on with your robes, wintertime, no heat. No, no, no, no. Yeah, right. You can get into that. But anyway, that's kind of a sideline. This guy Xishuang is the master of the Dead Tree Hall. And then, you know, there's also the famous koan about the dragon roaring in a dead tree. So I think all of that's relevant to this. I won't say a lot. I won't say dead. So, okay, this is a story, I don't think this is a question about the guy in the coffin. Okay. The lion dragon, the lion roaring in the dead tree is a quote from Dogen. Dogen has, it goes back to Shishua, actually, but so Shishua, Dogen has a wonderful essay about the dragon roaring or singing in the dead tree, and it goes back to a line about Shishua, the same Shishua.

[86:05]

by the dead tree, huh? So, dead or alive? Yeah, we saw this tree in your woods that had fallen and died. At least I saw it. And right out of that was growing another tree. Yeah, right. That happens too. It makes sense to say either dead or alive. Well, all of these stories are about I mean, each one of these stories, they're worthless unless they're about you. So if the story doesn't call you, then forget it, go on to the next story. But these are stories, these are all stories about each of us. Otherwise, they're just, you know. So anyway, in Xishuang's dead tree hall, there were dragons singing. And in that book, Practice of the Wild, Gary Spinner, there's this great thing about the ghost of a tree is this little line of mushrooms that had grown in the decaying tree.

[87:21]

All that was left is this little line of mushrooms, and that's the ghost of it. Anyway. But this is the basic story about... Not the most recent one, but the most recent one that came out in Mountains and Rivers Without End. This was published in 1990 or 91. If it's not in the bookstore, it should be, called Practice of the Wild. I'm sure his last book is good too, but Practice of the Wild is a great book. Anyway, well, okay, we have, anybody else want to say anything about the dragon roaring in the dead tree, or shall we find another story to close? There's another level where it maybe doesn't have that much to do with alive or dead. It reminds me of the fire god seeking fire one. That's in here too, yeah. And just hearing, you know, looking for the answer between these two opposites and then hearing the same thing again. Oh, right.

[88:24]

Later. Yeah, and that's the same as that story in that the teacher gives the same answer and then he gets it. But I think there's, in both of those cases, there's a way in which the second time will take too long to tell that story about the fire god seeking fire unless you want to hang out later than the end of this class, which is supposed to end in five minutes. But in both of those cases, Charlie, I think the second answer He understands it in a different way, and there is a different way. There's an incomplete way of hearing it, and the first one, the fire boy comes seeking fire, he took it initially as, maybe we'll do that story next time, but he took it as that the self looks for the self, so you don't need to look for the self. And it was exactly the opposite. You know what I mean? The fire boy comes seeking fire, so the seeking is important. Well, the way it's told, and I don't remember that version of it, it might be, but the version of it that Dogen gives in this collection is that they were just visiting a lay patron of the temple.

[90:09]

There was a condolence call, which is something that some teachers and monks do. So they were just visiting the home, and it was a funeral ceremony, basically. And this monk just slapped a coffin and said, dead or alive, alive or dead. So part of it is, you know, there's this thing, the great matter of life and death. So what the monk is supposed to, what practitioners are doing is investigating the great matter of life and death. Anything less than that is a waste of time. No, he was asking the teacher. I mean, I don't know. Lazarus might have gotten the bat out of the coffin, who knows. But yeah, there is certainly this… I mean in a lot of these stories there's this

[91:11]

you know, this is an important point. There's this tone of, or this context of irreverence in the middle of the story of these stories in this book about how dignified manner is itself the Buddha Dharma. So we talked about this last week, but again, you know, this is a book about dignified manner with all these fussy rules and don't reach over and take food from your neighbor's bowls and, you know, other rules. And yet, you know, here are these stories and he's praising these people as great examples of of Zen temple workers and they're doing all this irreverent stuff. Yeah, this is like really important that we should hear that and understand what is the real attitude, the real spirit, the real meaning of all of this. And it's time to stop, but I have to do one more story about it. I think this is about a work leader. Work leaders don't get enough attention. Is there a work leader here now? Who?

[92:22]

Katie? Okay, so imagine Katie in the story. Is there a story about a fire watch? Oh yeah, there is a story about a fire watch in here. It's okay. Wait a second, I just have to find this one story about this work leader, because it fits in with the other story. Here's an example of a person of the way who served as work leader. Zen master Baofu Benchuan was a Dharma heir of Huitang Suqin. Once when Huitang just raised his fist, Benchuan was struck few and actualized the source. So there's a part of something you have to know about Huitang, which is one of the things he used to like to do. the teacher in the story is, he used to teach by raising a fist and saying, if you call this a fist, you've said too much. If you say it's not a fist, you do not hit the mark.

[93:24]

Anyway, one day when he did this, Ben Chuan, who was his work leader, was struck through and actually as the source. He was eloquent and sharp-witted. Later on, the government official, Xiangku Wang, first entered practice, which means he first kind of had this entryway. This is a construction zone. What's going on up there? Clacking. Clacking, clacking. OK. Thank you, Martha. I know. This is a violation of forms to be continuing to talk after the. There's a government official. He asked the teacher Huitan, this government official, Xiangku Wang, which person here which persons here are worthy of having discussions with. So it's like if some, if the mayor of Mill Valley, say, came to and asked Norman, well, which of the monks here at Green Gulch, the residents here at Green Gulch is it worth talking to?

[94:26]

Hu Yitong said, Ben Chuan of Zhang province now is supervising workers in constructing rice fields. So he was down in the fields, you know. You can imagine Katie in this story, I guess, or, I don't know, the garden manager. Who's the garden manager there? Anyway, Shonku went there together with Huitang and said to Benchuan, work leader, tell me, do you know that a freestanding pillar gives birth to a child? So this is relevant to the last story Elijah did. Anyway, so this official went to the work leader and said, tell me, do you know that a freestanding pillar gives birth to a child? 5 minutes.

[95:06]

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