I'm taping this at the request of somebody from the Midwest. So again, this text, The Awesome Presence of Active Buddha is written in 1241. The Japanese title is Gyo Butsu Igi. Gyo means, one meaning is active. It also implies practicing. So the compound Shugyo is made up of this Gyo. So it implies practicing, so we could translate it as practicing Buddhas, but also this gyo has other meanings and I think they're relevant. So in some ways this title is pretty neat. Gyo also means just walking, from which one gets treading, from which it implies conduct. So this is practicing Buddhas or active Buddhas or not necessarily walking meditation, but the conduct of Buddhas is implied in this. And I've been teaching throughout the past year about the active creative aspect of Zazen and of our practice.

[01:07]

So this fits into that. This is one of Dogen's main writings about the activity of Buddhas, the actual practice of Buddhas. What, how Buddhas are, how Buddhas practice, how Buddhas conduct themselves. Now the word Iggy is more complicated. We translated it as awesome presence and I think that's a good translation, but a more conventional translation might be the dignified manner or dignified bearing or decorum. So this text has to do with presence in the sense of how how we are present for each other, how we present ourselves, how active Buddhas present themselves, what is the quality of the presence of active Buddhas. But it also refers to the dignity of active Buddhas or practicing Buddhas or the manner, the bearing of active Buddhas. So it doesn't get into decorum in the sense of the procedural

[02:13]

monastic forms of active Buddhas, but it relates to that. So I want to mention a story that relates to this term Iggy that I mentioned also when we were talking about this in Sashin. And actually, Shimok, when I translated this book, Dogen's Pure Standards for the Zen Community, Ehe Shingi, which is Dogen's writings in Chinese about the monastic standards and monastic practice. But Narasaki Ikaroshi, who wrote one of the forewords, mentions a story that I think is important in terms of just the context of this word, igi. for Dogen. So this is about Tetsugikai, who was a disciple, one of the main disciples of Dogen, and is actually, in our lineage, two after Dogen. So Dogen's main successor is named Koen Ejo, and Tetsugikai is his successor.

[03:18]

But Tetsugikai was actually a senior student of Dogen, and Dogen said to him a number of times in his last years that he wanted to give him dharma transmission, but he couldn't because Tetsugikai did not yet have sufficient grandmotherly mind. So, Tetsugikai was actually from the area that Eheji was in, so he was maybe very instrumental in support for Dogen moving there. He was also the first Tenzo there, and he knew many people in that area. He later went to China himself and studied more about the monastic forms and brought that back to Eheji and was the third abbot of Eheji. But there's a story about that, that at some point he, kind of in response to this issue of grandmotherly mind and his not having grandmotherly mind,

[04:21]

he came to Koenajō after Dogen died in 1255 and said that our late master Dogen espoused the teaching that the manners and conduct we follow now in this monastery are nothing other than the affair of Buddhas and the Buddha Dharma itself. So this is a kind of slogan in some branches of Soto Zen in Japan still that that decorous manner or Iggy is itself the Buddha Dharma. And for Americans who kind of feel like all of the monastic forms are fussy and Japanesey and we want to just do zazen, this is kind of, there's some resistance to hearing this. But anyway, Tetsubikai himself, apparently he says, now I understand that manners and dignified actions in the monastery are exactly the true Buddhadharma. even though there are limitless forms of Buddhadharma shown by Buddhas and ancestors, they are all this one color of Buddhadharma. Other than the present dignified decorum, so that's ikki, of Buddha in raising our arms and moving our legs, there could be no principle of the profound Buddha nature.

[05:33]

I honestly believe this truth. So part of Tetsugikai's realization of what Dogen called grandmotherly mind of actually taking care of all beings was to see that this this dignity or active manner or presence is itself teaching of Buddhas. So I think this is an important text amongst, this is from Dogen's Shobo Genzo, I should have said, what is included in that long collection of essays. Well, we'll get to that when we get to the text itself. But are there questions just about or comments just about what I've said so far in terms of the title of the text and the background of it. Well, I might actually... You guys have been talking about... Really? Oh, yeah, quite a lot.

[06:35]

Oh, good. I never get to hear him talk anymore, but I guess I just channel him, or vice versa. And the idea that... Well, okay, so two questions. One is whether this digi or dignified manner refers to monastic forms or just to the everyday manners of moving around, and then about Dogen himself and his grandmotherliness or not. And maybe I'll take the second question first, which is that I don't think reading Shobo Genzo that we actually get a feeling for Dogen himself.

[07:42]

So I've recently finished translating with Shohoku Okamura Dogen's extensive record, Ehe Koroku, Dobiat from Wisdom, next year. And those are actually more formal little talks. They're very short. and given in the dharma hall and the monks are standing rather than sitting. And a lot of them, you get much more of Dogen's personality. And you can see the strictness, but also, yes, the sentiment and the feeling and his caring for the monks comes across. So I would say, yes, he does. But what is grandmotherly mind and what was grandmotherly mind for this Japanese monk who was trying to train a group of monks? There were also lay people and there were women there too, but mostly monks up in this cold, remote mountain area with this monastery where they were snowed in for several months a year. And so, you know, he was trying to, he was trying to, he managed to succeed to actually trade. And, you know, I, in the introduction of that book, I talk about seven main disciples of his who really helped to keep this going so that we, so that we have it now.

[08:49]

And in that context, what, what his grandmotherly mind might be different from you know, if he was living in a small village with lots of children like Ryokan or something like that. But yeah, I think there's, I don't, I can see the grandmotherly mind in some of, particularly in some of his Heikuroku writings and teachings. So that book will be out next year, sorry. But grandmotherly mind includes just giving, just being indulgent to grandchildren, but also there's a kind of strictness to it too. or there can be at times. So, and that's an area where we might, you know, look at cultural differences in terms of what's, how are grandmothers, you know, in Japan, in America, in medieval times, in modern times. I think the heart is the same. But anyway, it's, we can talk about that more and I'm sure some of you have some experience or, you know,

[09:51]

other questions about that. In terms of the other question about, does this refer to monastic forms or just to everyday activities? And I would say both. For the monks there, where Dogen's teaching, and in this monastery in south of Kyoto where this was given, the monastic forms were the everyday activity. And I think Reb does talk about it in terms of rituals, and taking care of the rituals as a kind of dignified manner. In some ways, I think of it myself more yogically. And I think this is where this text relates to Zazen, that in Zazen, we model upright posture, still, silent, studying the self, being aware of thoughts and feelings as they come up. It's a kind of posture that we then can return to in our everyday activity. And I think the forms in Soto Zen and other kinds of Buddhism and probably in other spiritual traditions too, are also kind of postures and models through which we can learn, through prostrations we learn physically, not just intellectually, we learn respect and gratitude and humility and so forth.

[11:13]

So these forms are ways of finding this dignified presence. And in Japan, there's a whole other level of this, which you can't see in Americans then, or not much, not some rare exceptions, but a lot of the training, at least in one branch of Japanese Soto Zen, the branch that Katagiri Roshi was connected with, emphasizes very much doing these forms, and there's a certain way of walking, and there's a certain way of carrying oneself, and this is what Japanese Sotas and priests go to learn in the monastery. They go to learn how to do these ceremonies, how to do these forms. A lot of the times when they're later in charge of a small or even not so small village temple or temple in a city there, most of what they do is not Zazen, although they do that also, but they are ministering to a community just like this church ministers to a community. And then doing those ritual forms and practices are a way of expressing that presence that others can see and learn from.

[12:14]

So I'd say both. But I think it's important that it's not just, I think for us practically as American lay practitioners, to see it not just as a matter of rituals and kind of forms like that, but also just as a way of seeing our own models for our own dignified expression of our Zazen mind. So in that sense, maybe that's more important for us. although the form of zarzan and the forms of offering incense and bowing and so forth may be aids to that. George. Yeah, good question. So tea ceremony definitely came out of, emerged from, more from Renzai Zen, although it's in Soto Zen too, but it emerged from the Zen in Kyoto.

[13:23]

It's a high culture thing, and it kind of incorporated a whole range of Japanese arts, pottery, garden design, flower arranging, calligraphy. All of this got included in what we call tea ceremony, or chado, just the way of tea. And so I think that is very relevant to this because that was even more a kind of, it was a way in which this kind of sense of dignified presence that Dogen is talking about in this text, and that is part of the monastic forms, that it's a way that that got incorporated into Japanese culture as a whole, very much so. So many, not so many people proportionally nowadays in Japan, go and sit sasen. But a lot of people have some relationship to studying tea or studying one of the related arts. So in a sense, it's a good point that this sense of dignified presence, this sense of igi that Dogen is talking about here, developed and then found a kind of cultural form and expression in Japanese culture at large through tea.

[14:38]

Now, tea came after. Zen was established. Yes, tea ceremony was developed in Zen monasteries and Zen temples in Kyoto, mostly Rinzai Zen. But yes, it came directly from the forms of tea. Oh, well they were developed partly in conjunction with tea ceremony. They became part of, so a lot of them were, so tea ceremony and garden design maybe preceded tea, I mean calligraphy, flower arranging, pottery, those were all there before tea, but then they became part of the arts associated with tea ceremony, very much so, and were developed through that. And that was considered part of the practice? Still, for many Japanese people, doing one of those arts is their way of practice now.

[15:48]

So this is the way that Zen awareness and presence and culture and this idea of Iggy may not, I don't know that this term Iggy is used in those contexts, but it's talking about the same thing. Sado, or the Way of Tea, is just about, in a very formal, choreographed way, just making a cup of tea, and serving it, and receiving it. It's a very, very simple everyday activity. Highly refined and stylized, you could say, but it's about this sense of physically, having some physical way of practicing and expressing this sense of awesome presence or dignified presence. So maybe let's get into the text a little bit and then more of these questions may come up. So again, as I said, we're going to be doing this today and next week and

[16:51]

If any of you know people who might be interested in coming next week, they can come next week even if they haven't been here today because we'll all review the high points of what we talked about today. But there's plenty, we're not going to get to everything in this text in these two weeks, I wouldn't think. Next week here, same time, same place, 1.30 to 5, yes. So just to start at the beginning, Buddhas invariably practice complete awesome presence. Thus they are active Buddhas. So this is to say that because Buddhas practice this yi gi, this awesome presence, therefore we can call them active Buddhas or practicing Buddhas. Implying that if they don't without this awesome presence, they're not actually active buddhas. They're not practicing buddhas and Then he goes on to talk about how there's no all you know, basically he and he says it more Further in the text more direct more directly, but the only buddha is an active buddha is basically what he says There's no the Buddha that's not actually actively practicing.

[18:03]

That's not actively Expressing buddha in the world in some way is not really a buddha. I mean that's I don't know if he says it that directly, but that's clearly what he's getting at. So he goes through this, active Buddhas are neither reward-body Buddhas nor incarnate-body Buddhas, neither self-manifested Buddhas nor Buddhas manifested from others. So what that's about, these are kind of technical aspects of Buddhist teaching. So reward body Buddhas, I don't have a blackboard here and there won't be a test anyway, but that's Sambhogakaya is the Sanskrit term. It means the aspect of, so as Mahayana Buddhism developed, and Dogen and Zen is firmly based on Mahayana, there was this awareness of Buddha, not just as the historical Buddha Shakyamuni, who lived 2,500 years ago in Northern India, but different aspects of Buddha. I don't want to say it's exactly like the Trinity, although I've had discussions with Catholic theologians where one might think about some parallel.

[19:15]

correspondence, but basically there's three bodies of Buddha according to this idea which Dogen is referring to here. One is what he calls here the incarnate, we translated it as the incarnate body Buddha, that's the nirmanakaya, that's the one who Buddha as an historical person. Buddha as Siddhartha Gautama who became Shakyamuni Buddha in northern India in 500 BC, for example. There have been other incarnate body Buddhas. And in the Zen tradition, and you'll see this as Dogen, in this text itself, Dogen refers to a lot of the old Zen ancestors as old Buddhas. So there's this idea of anyone who realizes this awareness as Buddha, but those are all incarnate body Buddhas, a specific person incarnated in a specific karmic body and mind in a particular historic time. Reward body the net well before I get to reward body the other another aspect of Buddha is Dharmakaya Which means the reality body or the truth body of Buddha? And this is basically the whole universe Buddha as Everything Buddha as all phenomena Sometimes it's personified as by Rochanna Buddha So

[20:28]

There are various different understandings of these three, too, so it gets complicated, but basically, the Dharmakaya Buddha is Buddha as the awakening quality of the whole world, not just this world, but the whole universe. And then in between, we could say, is this reward body Buddha, or Sambhogakaya Buddha, which is described as the aspect or body of Buddha that is the reward or the result of meditative practice. So amongst, in Mahayana Buddhism, amongst the discussions of different kinds of Buddhas, there are like Amida Buddha you may have heard of, who's the Buddha that's venerated in Japanese Pure Land Buddhism. but there are many others. In Tibetan Buddhism, there's a whole array of different Buddhas who are, they're not historical Buddhas, they're not particular people, but they're kind of cosmic or celestial Buddhas, they're sometimes described as.

[21:39]

And so Amida Buddha would be one example, although sometimes Amida Buddha is considered a Dharmakaya. Anyway, it's, there are various different interpretations of all this. What Dogen's saying here, though, is what he's talking about as active Buddhas are not in that category. They're not, they're not Sambhogakaya, they're not, nirmanakaya or historical buddhas. And also not self-manifested buddhas, but buddhas manifested from others. So that refers to the idea, this was actually developed in Pure Lands. It was interesting to see Dogen referring to it here, that a buddha who results from his or her own efforts and practice, or a buddha who becomes buddha through the agency of other Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. You know, that's what he's referring to here, self manifested or manifested from other Buddhas manifested from others. Anyway, what he's saying is active Buddhas are not in those categories. That's so he's going to he's he's this this kind of theology would be would have been very, you know, would have been quite familiar to the monks who are listening to this.

[22:49]

So we have to give the kind of footnotes for just to kind of give background to understand these references. Beverly, did you have a question? No, he didn't say that they're not dharmakaya, but you could write that in. It's not in those categories. Active Buddhas are not dharmakaya. It's just, this is beyond those categories. That's all. And then he adds some more categories. They're neither originally enlightened nor enlightened at some particular time. Neither naturally enlightened nor without enlightenment. This is actually a very important issue for Dogen and for Buddhism in his time. This idea of original enlightenment and acquired enlightenment. Enlightenment that is acquired at some particular time.

[23:52]

So again, this is a kind of philosophical background, but there was this idea in East Asian Buddhism of fundamental enlightenment, or Hongaku, original enlightenment. It's sometimes translated as, which was a big category in the Tendai Buddhist school, which Dogen was trained in, which was this kind of comprehensive school of Buddhism that started in China and was brought to Japan before Zen came, and that all, so Dogen, in the 13th century was one of many kind of innovators in Japanese Buddhism along with Rinzai teachers and Honen and Shinran and Pure Land Buddhism and Nichiren who founded Nichiren Buddhism based on the Lotus Sutra. All of them had their background in Tendai Buddhism. So this idea, this philosophy of original enlightenment is that all beings are fundamentally enlightened, this kind of idea of this fundamental enlightenment and our practice is just to get rid of the obstructions and conditioning that block us from expressing and seeing and being aware of this original enlightenment.

[25:07]

There's a story, and I'm not so sure how reliable it is historically, but one of the Soto school kind of traditional stories about Dogen is that he went to China because he had a question about this idea, that he thought that if all beings have enlightenment from the beginning, why do we have to bother to practice? So this was a kind of basic question that he had, and the story goes that he was so obsessed with this question that he went to China. He couldn't find an answer in Japan. Well, that's actually historically, you know, there were Tendai teachers who could have given him a perfectly good answer. But anyway, he went. So whether that's really the reason he went to China, I'm doubtful of. But the story is that he went there because of this question. And in which I translated with Sho Haku in the Wholehearted Way talks about, it's not that there's not original enlightenment, but it's not, it's not manifest until it's actualized.

[26:18]

It's not, it has to actually be put into practice. So that fits into this idea of active Buddha. Anyway, here in this sentence, he's just saying that active Buddhas are not fundamentally enlightened Buddhas. And they're also not, enlightened at some particular time. And that, you're all familiar with this idea of acquired enlightenment. So in all those koans and all those Zen stories, and a lot of them at the end, it says the monk got enlightened. Well, what it really means is the monk had some opening experience. And this idea of Kensho is important still in some Americans' Zen schools. And this refers to this kind of acquiring some experience of enlightenment or some state of enlightenment as if it wasn't there before. What Dogen is saying here is neither of those. It's not something that's there from the beginning and it's not something that arrives at some particular time through some intense practice or interchange with a teacher or whatever.

[27:19]

It's not natural and also it's not without enlightenment. Active Buddhists, it's not saying that active Buddhists are not enlightened. So one of the things that Dogen does a lot in a lot of his writings is to go through all the possible misunderstandings that people might have about what he's trying to say. So these two sentences are just examples of that. They're not things that I wanted to make particularly emphasize in terms of this teaching, but it's just, you know, since they're there. This is an example of Dogen, you know, right from the beginning, making sure that you don't think what he's saying is something that you might, he's misunderstanding it in some way that he's trying to correct. So, Stephen? I know what you're saying now, but I'm a little confused because my understanding is that Well, that's a good question. So is Dogen saying that Is Dogen refuting all of traditional Mahayana Buddhism?

[28:37]

So I don't hear it that way, but maybe. Dogen plays with the teaching all the time. I mean, that's one of the things. So in terms of whether Dogen has grandmotherly mind, as Gregory asked, the way that he plays with the teaching to make a point about the teaching is one of the characteristics that's very Dogen-esque. Well, in a way, it's a traditional teaching to provide, to negate even the teaching. You find it in the heart sutra. That's right. You find it in Koans such as this. Right. That's right. Yeah, thank you. Yes. So it is kind of traditional to negate the teaching as a way of, so there are bases for it traditionally. It's not that he is inventing this, but he has his own particular style of doing that. So I wouldn't say that he's negating the idea of the three bodies of Buddha, or I certainly would not say he's trying to present a fourth body of Buddha.

[29:43]

He's just saying, I'm talking about active Buddhists. I'm talking about actual practicing active Buddhists in the world. And I'm not talking about any of these categories. They're not that, they're not this. It's not about fundamentally enlightened Buddhists. It's not Buddhists who suddenly become enlightened, suddenly become Buddhists. It's not Sambhogakaya Buddhists who exist in some meditative realm. It's not incarnate body Buddhists, just active Buddhists. Yeah. Right, I think he does not, he does go to great lengths, as you said, Miriam, to not encourage some idea of some particular understanding.

[31:01]

So he's, like in the Koan Mu, as you said, he's cutting through any particular way you might understand this. But he is talking about something. It's not that you shouldn't have any understanding, but it's also not that the understanding is not what it's about. It's about active Buddhas. It's about what is the actual presence and manner and dignity of active Buddhas. So he's not just talking about some active Buddhas somewhere else. He's encouraging his monks to take on awesome presence and to take on activating Buddha. I mean, I think that's what Beverly said. I mean, in the book, there's no really proposed positive teaching or what. I mean, it gave things. But here, what she's doing here besides negating the teaching, so that we would have meant he's sort of proposing something else. But it's very tricky. So much of the teaching they asked me before, saying it's not this, it's not that.

[32:05]

But he's saying it's not that, not that, not that, but this. Yeah, in a way. Yeah, he is talking about these gyobutsu, these practicing Buddhas, these active Buddhas, these Buddhas who are conducting themselves in the manner of dignified presence. So yeah, and this is just the introduction. Actually, I think the next three paragraphs are really central to the whole essay. We may not get past the first page of this today, but what he says in the next three paragraphs really clarifies what he is talking about. But it's interesting, just as a stylistic thing, that he starts off by saying, it's not this and it's not that, all of these other categories. He says, such Buddhas can never compare with active Buddhas. So let's go, if you have other questions about this first paragraph, we can come back to it, but I wanna go a little further first.

[33:09]

So he says that, know that Buddhas in the Buddha way do not wait for awakening. Active Buddhas alone fully experience the vital process on the path of going beyond Buddha. This is something that self-manifested Buddhas and the like have never dreamed of. Okay, so this thing about not waiting for awakening is very important. Buddhas in the Buddha way, So it's funny that he says that. It's like there might be Buddhists that are not in the Buddha way. Anyway, Buddhists in the real Buddha way, Buddhists do not wait for awakening. He says this in various ways in various places. And it's very important. It's a central statement of Dogen's. So there's this basic idea of Dogen's in Japanese, shusho no itto, the oneness, or shusho means Practice, that's the same shu as in shu-gyo, which is gyobutsu. Practice and enlightenment, sho, is one of the ways of saying enlightenment. It also means verification.

[34:11]

Shu-sho, practice and realization. No ito, one and the same. So the usual conventional way of understanding practice and understanding enlightenment, in many Zen schools too, is that one practices and eventually becomes enlightened. So this is standard Mahayana. So Beverly's in a class I'm teaching now on the Gandha-vyuha Sutra, which is the culmination of the Flower Ornament Sutra which talks about the stages of bodhisattva practice to get to Buddhahood and it talks about lifetimes and lifetimes and lifetimes and ages and ages of practice and going through this stage and that stage and that's basic Mahayana Buddhism and this is the understanding of a lot of you know, popular Buddhism in Asia, and it's very much the practice of Tibetan Buddhism. It's in a lot of East Asian Buddhism.

[35:12]

Dogen's coming from, however, from this other way of understanding things, which starts to happen in the Lotus Sutra, where it's not about some practice and some enlightenment separate from each other. So in his earliest writing in Vendawa, he talks about this and goes into how, that's in the Wholehearted Waybook, how there can't be some enlightenment separate from practice. And just in terms of our own sense of zazen, you know, it's, There's some enlightenment that happens somewhere else. It's not really enlightenment. There's no enlightenment that's not actually practiced. It wouldn't be enlightenment. So this is actually fundamental Buddhist teaching. One can see this in all of Buddhism. But the point of the way Dogen says it is that it's not about waiting for enlightenment.

[36:16]

Your enlightenment right now is the enlightenment of your practice right now. So there's no enlightenment that's not actually put into practice. Then it would just be some idea, some concept, some delusion about enlightenment. Similarly, there's no practice that's not the practice of enlightenment. If it's real Buddhist practice, it comes from And he doesn't talk about Bodhicitta here directly, but this idea of Bodhicitta is fundamental in all of Buddhism too, this idea of literally the mind of awakening, but it implies this kind of impulse towards awakening. So somewhere in, for each of you, in your impulse, your first impulse towards spiritual practice, your first impulse towards enlightenment, there is all of enlightenment. It's not that there's some other enlightenment that you get later. Now, of course, our practice, our practice enlightenment, our practice realization, through practice, it may deepen or open up or expand or, you know, but,

[37:20]

There's no real practice that's not already the practice of enlightenment. And there's no enlightenment that is not an enlightenment that is practiced. Then it would just be some idea. So this is implied in this first sentence. The Buddhas and the Buddha way do not wait for awakening. It's not that if we practice really hard, if we put log enough Kushan time, if we sit enough Sashins, if we go to enough Dharma lectures, that eventually at some point in the future, we're going to awaken. Well, you know, there's something, there's a transformative, he addresses that in the next sentence. Active Buddhas alone, only active Buddhas, only the Buddhas who are actually practicing, fully experience the vital process on the path of going beyond Buddha. So I encourage students in the session, we had to memorize this phrase, but In some ways, this is a key sentence in this whole essay.

[38:23]

Active Buddhas alone fully experience the vital process on the path of going beyond Buddha. So there is a path, there is a process, there's a vital process that we need to experience. But it's not that you'll be awakened later. Awakening is itself a process and a path. It's alive. So in our practice, yeah, there's an unfolding. But it's not about getting to Buddha. It's not about realizing enlightenment. It's not about achieving enlightenment. It's about going beyond Buddha. So... Would you say that enlightenment is a continuum? Or maybe an ocean? Enlightenment is an ocean, enlightenment is a continuum, sure. Well, you said enlightenment was a continuum, I'll say enlightenment's an ocean. You said it too, anyway. Yeah, it's a vital process, it's a path. It's a way, you know, this Chinese word, the Tao, the way, is used in East Asian Buddhism to translate both enlightenment itself and also this kind of sense of the dynamic activity of our engagement in practice enlightenment, practice realization.

[39:41]

about it, but how does the various parts of the Dogen relate to those parts of the ocean? With great appreciation. So all of these standard Mahayana wonderful descriptions of stages of Bodhisattva practice are there. Dogen refers to them himself. But he does say again and again that it's It's just practice realization. Now, there is, though, this path of going beyond Buddhas. This phrase, going beyond Buddha, is, I don't know if there's been a concordance, but it recurs very often in Dogon, going beyond Buddha. And it's a really important idea. So it's Buddha going beyond Buddha. There's an old koan, if you see the Buddha on the road, kill him. And it doesn't mean it's not encouraging violence, but it means don't get stuck anywhere. So Buddhism, and as I say, Buddhism didn't end when Shakyamuni was enlightened.

[40:58]

It wasn't like he went on, you know, he left the palace and practiced for many years, and then eventually he got enlightened, and that was the end of Buddhism, because he'd gotten it. That was the beginning of Buddhism, and he continued to practice and continued to awaken thereafter. This is not the usual conventional idea, at least in American Buddhism, that, you know, if you practice long enough, we hear, then you'll eventually you know, maybe in some future life can become a Buddha. And even like in the Lotus Sutra, there are predictions of Buddha saying to various disciples in some future life, and he'll maybe sometimes name the world at the time and say, you'll become a Buddha. Dogen is saying something else. He's just saying, this is, you should experience the vital process of the path of going beyond Buddha, which means there's a practice realization. There's a practice enlightenment right now. You're not waiting for awakening. And yet, it's unfolding. It's going beyond Buddha. Don't get stuck in this one. This isn't dead. It's alive.

[42:01]

It's dynamic. It's not something that we can, you know, write the calligraphy of, you know, practice realization, or act, or gilbutsu, or igi, and put it on the wall, and that's it. We actually continue to practice. Yeah, so if we're alive then we're in the world and circumstances change and we meet new people and we visit new places and governments fall and get taken over and so forth. The whole world is evolving. So we're in a constant state of aliveness. So of course, it's not, it's active Buddha. It's going, it's active Buddha going beyond Buddha. So he doesn't say it exactly that way right here, but this sentence in a way is saying active Buddha is always going beyond Buddha. But I like the way, you know, I like this experiencing the vital process on the path of going beyond Buddha.

[43:06]

It's kind of, you know, it kind of has some texture to it. happen to bring the text. Yeah, I don't think it's a stage. It's just Buddha. Here it is. It's just Buddha beyond, Mujo. I'm not sure how else to translate it. The idea with the way I'm getting it is enjoying

[44:09]

through practice, because they're not separate, and expressing that in another place. And it's endless, it's infinite. And so it's not that there's no stage that's not practice, realization, expression. And there's no end to practice, realization, expression. So you can't say it's graduate school, because there's always something beyond. Yeah, there's no diploma. Sorry. Bye, Stephen. See you. See you later. All together gone beyond. Yes, it's like that. That's actually, that's I think the real inner meaning of that mantra. It's about going beyond Buddha. It's letting go and going beyond.

[45:23]

So going beyond is this other side. And he talks more specifically about letting go later on. So it's going beyond and letting go of the present Buddha to become the next Buddha in the next moment. If a Buddha didn't let go of being a Buddha, they wouldn't be a Buddha anymore, actually. They'd be just stuck in some dream of a past Buddha. Yeah, right. So there's a texture to playing with the, if you try and understand Dogen and kind of think about it philosophically, you can get really stuck. He's playing with these ideas. He's encouraging us to do that. He's encouraging us to see the aliveness of what he's talking about.

[46:24]

And particularly in this essay, he's talking about these two qualities, active Buddhas and this dignified manner or awesome presence. way off here, but it's rather like, don't take the word of others, experience it yourself, trust in them, be there with them. Good, yeah, it's not, that's right, and Dongshan said something like that, don't rely on others, but experience it yourself. Yeah, I think that's a part of this, it's actually It's not about some other act of Buddha. It's about your own experience. And Dogen doesn't say it exactly this way, but that's clearly the context. He's encouraging his monks' practice. He's not talking about this as a philosophical doctrine. Even though Dogen is sometimes respected as a great philosopher,

[47:28]

or talked about that way in modern times, he wasn't interested in propounding some philosophical program. He was a religious teacher talking to a particular group of particular students, particular meditators who he was encouraging in their practice. So it's not about somebody else. So again, just this phrase, I think is really worthy of some kind of hanging out with his active Buddhas alone, fully experienced the vital process on the path of going beyond Buddha. It's worth chewing over and remembering. He goes on, because active Buddhas manifest awesome presence in every situation, they bring forth awesome presence with their body. So this awesome presence, the signified manner, is something that active Buddhas naturally manifest. I don't know about naturally, but anyway, that's what they do continuously.

[48:36]

And therefore, physically in their bodies, again, it's not just an idea. They actually present this awesome presence. They bring it forth in the situation. This is what he's saying, active Buddhas are. Thus, their transformative function flows out in their speech, reaching them throughout time, space, Buddhas, and activities. So I think it's important that there is a transformative function to this. So Buddhas, going back to one of the early chapters of the Lotus Sutra, there's a statement that Dogen refers to a lot about the single matter of arising of Buddhas, that the single cause for Buddhas to appear in the world is for the sake of suffering beings, to help lead them into their own path towards awakening, which means their own path towards leading others into their own path towards leading others to awakening and so forth. So this sense of, this is not just, so this transformative function is worth thinking about a little bit, I think,

[49:48]

There is a transformative function to this. So that means that there's an identification without an identity? Say that again. I'm not sure I understand your question. If there's a transformative function that blows up and there's speech reaching through our bodies and so on, one has to recognize that there's a transformative function. OK. Yeah, one has to recognize there's a transformative function. But what did you mean about identity? But it's not exactly an identity. What do you mean? It's not an identification? So you're asking really how do we recognize the transformative function? Okay. Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think that's a question that goes beyond this text, but in terms of our practice, how do we recognize in our own experience for ourselves, how do we recognize the transformative quality of practicing?

[51:02]

How do we see transformation in our own lives? I think this is worth looking at. And then also, how do we see the effect of our practice in our environment? So Dogen says in Ben-Durwa, William, could you bring me a copy of The Wholehearted Way? I keep wanting to refer to it because it's one of his very early texts, but he talks about a lot of this stuff, that there is... I'm sort of plugged into this tape recorder. Thank you very much. In what in this we haven't chanted in a while, but the section that called the Self-fulfillment Samadhi again, this is one of his very very first writings He says it He's talking about the Zazen people people who do Zazen I

[52:12]

I can't quite find it, but I will. That too, but he also says in terms of the people one, yeah, the people one comes in contact with are influenced by our practice. Yeah, so in this first writing about Zazen really, some version of Fukan Zazengi before, but it's very early writing by Dogen. Oh, here it is. Since those who receive and use this energy, this movement caused by the functioning of Zazen, extend the Buddha influence of original enlightenment, all who live and talk with these people also share and universally unfold the boundless Buddha virtue and they circulate the inexhaustible, ceaseless, incomprehensible and immeasurable Buddha dharma within and without the whole dharma world.

[53:38]

So his idea, his way of talking about Zazen is that somehow our practice, whether or not, you know, we all, to the extent that we actually engage in Zazen and practice, we all probably know people who don't do that, who we come in contact with. Maybe some of you don't, but probably most of you know people who you know very well who don't practice, and yet your practice what Dogen says in that writing is that your practice has some effect on them. Or if you know people who practice, their practice has some effect on you. In some sense, it's almost sort of obvious that everything, basic Buddhist teaching, that we're all interconnected. But if you think about it in terms of our day-to-day activity, which is what he's getting at here, the actual activity of Buddhists and the actual presence and dignity of Buddhists that are willingness to face ourselves, our willingness to take this uprightness and try and enact it has an effect.

[54:48]

It has an effect on ourselves and it has an effect on those around us. Now, when he talks about transformative function, there's a kind of, it implies something more, it implies there's some transformation, it implies that there's some definite beneficial effect. I guess there could be transformation, a transformative function that was negative. I suppose that happens too. So if one goes into prison, then one can be influenced in various ways, or if one works for the government, one can be influenced in various ways. Anyway, so everything has a transformative function in a way. But he's talking here about the transformative function of active Buddhas. You know, I sometimes don't like to admit it, but I can see in my own life that Zazen has helped. And, you know, I can see in people I know who practiced a while that some, I don't know, I could put positive terms on it, some openings, some shifts, some

[55:54]

In many cases, it's extremely obvious. It can be very dramatic. Sometimes it's subtler, but there's an effect to practice. So that's what he's talking about here, this transformative function. And it happens in their speech. It happens not just in speech, but also in body and mind, throughout time, space, Buddhism, activities. So I think that's what he's talking about here. And it happens through their bringing forth awesome presence. It's not, it doesn't happen based on reaching some understanding, some intellectual construct. It happens through this process of going beyond Buddha and awesome presence, this physical awesome presence that we share. So in some ways, this is one of the effects of monastic practice or residential practice is just to be, to spend day-to-day activity together with others who are engaged in zazen and just, it doesn't happen.

[57:05]

So, you know, we're here studying this text and there's value to studying texts. But the value to studying texts is more just that we're hanging out together in some ways. There is the awesome presence of each of us, you know, kind of grappling with Dogen's words. And I think, and what he's, what my sense of what he's saying here is that that's, that presence together, more than some intellectual understanding of what he's saying, is where this transformation, transformative function flows out. And it does flow out in our speech, and it does flow out in our mind, and it's not that you shouldn't have some understanding, but this, he's pointing, this idea of the presence as, and the dignity of, Buddhas as the place where the juice is, I think is really important. Well that would also give us the opportunity to all of us exert our presence and transformative function to transform you.

[58:31]

I'm not sure what that... Yeah, well, I think it's constructive, yeah. Although, you know, if the world was decaying, we'd be willing to engage that in some constructive way. So yeah, the constructive side of it is what I think is the realm of precepts, that there's a way of expressing this that is constructive, that's involved in non-harming and supporting truth and non-killing. But yeah, so that's, in a way, that's a kind of underside of this to me, is that there is a constructive aspect of this. But he's talking about it more, well, I mean, awesome presence is positive, you know, dignified manner. Yeah. Yeah, right. It's a conduct, that's right. Yeah. Right. Yes. Yeah, and he's, I think he was, I don't know if I was at that same talk, but I think he was talking about the text Zenki by Dogen, which is his name, Tenshin Zenki, and it means total function, total dynamic function.

[60:25]

So yeah, that's interesting. I think that idea of Dogen's of functioning. So there's a character, the Chinese character there, Qi, is a very complicated character. functioning and operating and mechanism, and it's got many meanings, but yeah, there's a kind of, it is related to this, I hadn't thought of that, but yeah, this is gyo-butsu or active buddhas, zenki is this dynamic functioning, and I think that is part of this transformative function. In fact, I don't know if the character, now I should look up what was the character that we translated as transformative function. If I can find that. I may not be able to find it right away.

[61:26]

Oh no, it is key. It's transformative function, yeah. It's the same character as in Zenki, the second character. So yeah, you're right. But this is the same character that's used for transformation body. Anyway, some of you are interested in Chinese characters and most of you aren't. But anyway, it's Yeah, it's a similar idea that there's this actual functioning, there's this actual dynamic thing. But here it's emphasizing that it is transformative and that's what I'm sort of emphasizing that word. So I don't know. Maybe I should ask if you see transformation in your own sense of your own practices or the people you see practicing. And, you know, it's hard to be a parent for so long.

[62:31]

I think we've just got to see the change. The experience, you know, changing your experience of having other white people around, having people in your family, talking, studying, interacting. Right. It is a change. And I think we probably all have experienced how to transform it. So maybe some of you don't want to think of it as transformation because it's kind of intimidating. And that's OK. But yeah, it's change. It's positive, constructive change. Ron? I think people have mentioned, I know, actually, there's a lot For myself, when I first started practicing, such as it was a long time ago, I was very patient with myself.

[63:35]

I've really got to get there, and I've got to get to somewhere. I'm really proud of myself, and I'm going to try really hard, and I'm not trying hard enough on that. But I found out for myself, and I will Yes. Yes, thank you. It's slow and intangible. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. We come to practice, you know, because we're trained in this consumerist society, we're supposed to get the best and the fastest and, you know, I think, so Trump warned about spiritual materialism.

[64:43]

I think there is some idea of wanting the best practice or the flashiest practice or something that we can get, you know, we can see our progress and so we have this idea of making a lot of effort and I think people first come to practice and there's a kind of, a lot of idealism often of, well, I'm going to, you know, practice really hard and then get enlightened and have all those flashy experiences. Transformation sometimes does happen kind of suddenly, but actually, it's always also this very slow, subtle, often unrecognized event over many years. And when it happens suddenly, it's usually after lots and lots of work. When it seems to happen suddenly, just like when I use the examples of apartheid ending in South Africa, or the Berlin Wall falling, or the Soviet Union dissolving suddenly, but there was a lot of effort that went into that. So, in our own lives, sometimes, it does happen sometimes that suddenly, you know, we let go of something.

[65:49]

Like, I suddenly stopped smoking a few months after I started practicing. But more often, it's very, as you say, Ron, very kind of, slow and subtle and we have to, I think some people get diverted by that idealistic sense of needing to make some big special effort and that can actually, we can actually be defeated by that or just stop, you know. So I often mention this story about, Shinkai Roshi, one of the, the teacher I like most in Japan and who I practiced with a number of Sashins, and the last time I had doksan with him, he said, understanding is easy. Understanding is not important. The point is just to continue. So we don't always see the transformative function, but it's there. And if we can find some way to stay with it, it can continue. It is a big word, Lynn.

[66:52]

I think it's a big idea. So I think we can see little ways, or maybe seeing little ways in which there's some shifting happening can be an encouragement for us to continue, practically speaking. And yet, if we're looking for some dramatic transformation, that can be a discouragement, because we get all idealistic and think there should be some flashy experience. you know, what's really important is happening kind of, as you say, under the radar, you know, more steadily. Yes. Yes, yes. One of my favorite koans, Ordinary Mind is the Way, where

[68:02]

Jaya says, what is the way, his teacher said, ordinary mind or everyday mind. And then he said, how do I approach it? And teacher said, the more you try and approach it, the further away you get from it. And yet our whole training, you know, in a culture and in, you know, and having a human ego is to, you know, make an effort and try and get something. So it's, This is about letting go. So the going beyond Buddha part is also letting go of Buddha. Is there another translation for transformative? Because it just strikes me, transformation almost needs a very concrete word. That is, to change one thing into another. I mean, that's literally what transforming is. It's not just change, but it's block turning into a bed. I mean, that's which seems very problematic. Well, I don't have trouble with transformation as a Buddhist term.

[69:23]

If you understand it as transformation is just change, but there's a change that eventually can be seen. So it's not turning one thing into something else. It's actually an evolved kind of, it could be just translated as changing. But I think in this context, it means it's something more than just... I think transformative is... I think it's interesting to see that you can transform it, and whether you transform it, you know, I think you can do this in such a way that you just become yourself. So, you know, if you're talking about transformation of the universe, the quality of energy in the universe, that's something really big.

[70:25]

But... Well, in some ways this is talking about that. But it's also talking about becoming more yourself. Right. In some way. Right. So... But I guess I wanted to... I was having that same curve of things were happening to me that were transformative. you know, that it's more universal. And if I think about myself transforming, it's more psychology type stuff. It's just becoming, I've just become who I am. That's interesting that this word transformative brings up all this. In a way, I think it's good. Is this talking about transforming oneself into somebody else? Maybe that's how we usually think of transformation, but that's not what this means. What do you think it does when you transform to something better? Well, it could mean that, but it also could mean I'm... So I think in this context, transformative function implies not just for oneself, but having a Buddha transforming others.

[71:31]

That's definitely implied in this. It's not just self-transformation. It's the transformative function of benefiting sentient beings. So it's referring to the bodhisattva kind of activity. So in that sense, it is transformative. And we're talking about English words, and the point isn't which word is right. The point is, how do we understand it? And so these issues that are coming out of this word, and as you said, Lynn, it feels like intimidating, maybe, or a big word. But in some ways, I think it's good that it brings up all of these issues. George, you had? The image I was having is somebody like Mother Teresa, who just really had a fundamental grounding and belief system and basically formulated that into a plan of action and just, irregardless of what was happening around her, she just pursued it, pursued it for a lifetime. Everything that happened around her still didn't make a lot of difference because she was very fundamentally grounded.

[72:36]

She transformed other people, she herself, whoever would have thought that she had to come back what she did. So that's the image I keep having of somebody in the modern world who just had this. Yeah, so there are people who have transformative function. Mother Teresa is a particularly dramatic example. But her transformative function wasn't just in the people in Calcutta and other places that she helped directly, but just as an image in the world. People were transformed just by knowing that there was somebody who was willing to do that kind of activity. That's a dramatic example. But I think there's some value to the actual problem that some of you are having with this word, transformation, because I think it does mean something that is actually making a difference in the world. And it's not just transforming others, it's transforming oneself too. So how is Mother Teresa herself transformed by being willing to remain committed and steady to the ground of what she decided to do?

[73:45]

Well, I don't know that this is talking about what happens in the Vatican. Yeah, but again, I think this happens, part of what this is about, though, is that this happens in, very, you know, in dramatic ways, but also very kind of pedestrian ways, as Ron was saying, where there's a transformation that happens and we don't even realize it until, you know, a long time afterwards. It includes that kind of transformation, too. Lindy, do you have a comment? As Ron said, it's a change. It's a change in your awareness of yourself and the world and awareness of my future. So, I guess, you know, it's really not a problem.

[74:49]

It's just an excuse. It's just something that happens. Yeah, I can't think of another word that I would put in there as a translation of this. I mean, it's a constructive function. It's a function that produces change. And transformative maybe is a little melodramatic, but that's okay. Yes, Mary? Yes. Yes, bodhisattvas appear and create transformations. If we think of great bodhisattvas, yes. Yes. that's an important question behind all this.

[76:03]

Dogen, I don't know if anywhere in this essay he refers to bodhisattvas, but that's really what he's talking about in a way. In, for example, in the text, the Gandavyuha text I mentioned before from the Flower Ornament Sutra, it makes, yeah, there is some reference to Bodhisattvas later on in this text, but in some Mahayana texts, there's a very clear, big demarcation between Bodhisattvas and Buddhas, you know, in a technical sense. I think what Dogen's talking about here, though, and in general for Dogen, he doesn't make that distinction. And when he's talking about active Buddhas in a way, in terms of the classic understanding of Bodhisattvas, the Buddha just sits there up on the altar and looks pretty and the Bodhisattvas are out there doing the work. So we can say that the Bodhisattvas are the active Buddhas. We could say these are working Buddhas, you know, you could translate it that way. The dignified manner of working Buddhas.

[77:05]

So yeah, I think it's a good point that this is about, Buddhas as Bodhisattvas or Bodhisattvas as Buddhas. When he's talking about Gyobutsu, practicing Buddhas, functioning Buddhas, he's talking about Buddhas going beyond Buddhas. And then the difference between Buddhas and Bodhisattvas is not, it may be, the difference may be meaningful practically to us as we realize that we're doing Bodhisattva practice, since we're, just the fact that you're here, you know, paying attention to this material means that you're doing Bodhisattva practice. But of course, we can recognize the disparity between our own, you know, our own efforts at Bodhisattva practice and, you know, I don't know, somebody that we might think of as a great Bodhisattva, I don't know who that is. Bob Dylan, yeah.

[78:07]

Johnny Cash, yeah, except he's no longer, well, he's an active Buddha through his music. Whoever you think of as an active Buddha, we can feel like our own awesome presence is not as developed. We can make comparisons between various awesome presences. And I don't know how how helpful that is, but certainly there is an unfolding of awesome presence that happens in the vital process of the path of going beyond Buddha. Yeah, awesome presence is not usually a function of celebrity. So the idea of bodhisattvas in Asia is very much ordinary, everyday, hidden practice.

[79:10]

People in the world, somebody working behind a counter who smiles at their customers, for example. Somebody who is just kind to people they see. It's in ordinary activity. It's not necessarily some dramatic event, but anyway, it can be either. And the word awesome, maybe there's some problem with the word awesome just in terms of its seeming like it means something awesome, whereas it could be the everyday, we could translate it as the everyday dignified presence of active Buddhists. Right, right. Yes, so should we at some point, we can take maybe a couple times a break.

[80:12]

We can go a little bit further in this. I kind of like it that we got caught on this word transformative, but I don't know that I recognize that we haven't resolved all of the tensions involved in that word. But that's OK. We'll allow that word to continue to have its transformative function. But maybe let's do it a little bit further and then maybe take a little break. So he says, without being an active Buddha, you cannot be liberated from bondage to Buddha and bondage to Dharma, and you'll be pulled into the cult of Buddha demons and Dharma demons. So some of you may have seen these Buddha demons or Dharma demons, or even the cults. But, you know, the point is that one has to be an active Buddha.

[81:14]

That if one makes Buddha, if you're talking about static Buddhas, if you're talking about Buddhas not practicing, if you're talking about some Buddha that we put up on an altar and bow down to without actually manifesting our own awesome presence, then it's a cult of Buddha demons and Dharma demons. The same can happen with the Buddha and the Dharma. Towards the end of this essay, he goes into this whole elaborate thing about how Buddha and Dharma interplay. So again, this week and next week, we're not going to get all through this text, and that's okay. I'm not sure, there may be some reference like that somewhere in the Blue Cliff Records, it sounds like that a little bit. But he's certainly taking it on, making it his own. So just to finish this section, which I think of as an important section, bondage to Buddha means to be bound by the view that our perception and cognition of Bodhi is actually Bodhi.

[82:16]

experiencing such views, even for a moment, you cannot expect to meet liberation and you will remain vainly mistaken. So, to be bound by the view that our perception and cognition of awakening is actually awakening. What? I'm not sure. I don't know. I don't hear the difference. like our perception implies there might be someone else's perception that was right. Oh, OK. Yeah. To anyone's perception and cognition of our perception. Yes, you're right. So except, you know, the R is just, you know, he's talking about us. So we think that sometimes we think that, particularly when we have some very good understanding, and, you know, if we can actually read Dogen and think we're understanding it, or hear about awakening or transformative function and think we understand it, it may be that we have some cognition about Bodhi, but that's not actually Bodhi.

[83:30]

We may have some understanding of awakening, but awakening is not limited by our understanding of it. So we shouldn't get caught in, that's a way of not going beyond Buddha, is to get caught, is to be caught up in some particular wonderful view that we may have about enlightenment. This can happen. We might have some, we might write some wonderful poem about enlightenment. We might have some really, you know, wonderful vision or experience or kensho or we might, you know, make some terrific Dharma utterance or all those things can happen. And yet, if we get caught in that as actually being awakening, that's, That's this realm of Buddha demons and Dharma demons. So this is again, going beyond Buddha means not getting caught in any particular version or understanding of what awakening is or what awesome presence is or what active Buddhas are. Say it again.

[84:33]

Right. We couldn't have some perception of enlightenment as something as something over there. If it was really enlightenment, anything we perceive as enlightenment is something. And that's not enlightenment, that's just a thing. It's not even that. So it's not a noun. It's not an object. It's not something that we can understand. We can have very good understandings of We can have flashes of insight, or we could have years of dedication to something.

[85:51]

And our language, of course, traps us in these. But that's not it. And yet, I don't think he's saying here that our perceptions and cognition of Bodhi is bad. We may have very fine excellence. uh, refined, uh, helpful cognitions of awakening, but they're not actually awakening. Right. You have to continue to come back to the, to the vital process of going beyond Buddha. So again, that phrase to me is so important here, that it's not, that whatever understanding we have, again, it might be a very good understanding, and it might be helpful, and we might tell other people, and they might be inspired to practice by your understanding.

[86:57]

And yet, if you hold on to that understanding, you will remain vainly mistaken. That's not actually liberation. And yet, we can use our understandings. Again, it's not that we shouldn't have understandings. In fact, we do have understandings. We do have perceptions. We do have cognitions. So, yeah. We may have crummy cognitions and perceptions, or we may have twisted, demented cognitions and perceptions, or we may have beautiful fantastic cognitions and perceptions, and they may be more or less true or not, and yet, that's not awakening. That's not what he's talking about here. That's not the awesome presence of active Buddhas. It would say it's just what I would call just ordinary mind common sense. Sure. I look at this pen, my perception is not this pen.

[87:58]

And yet, And so an ordinary person knows that you can't get burned. You get burned by a fire, but not your perception of the fire. Right. But the hidden part of that is that somehow people practicing lose that common sensibility. It's a reminder of that common sense. The rain is a sidewalk that's wet. And what's the difference between recognition that you can't go there? you're actually in the process of practicing, and if you're not, then you're not. I mean, if everyday mind... I have a big question about this everyday mind. Okay. And it's been involved in the thing I've returned to, to make an inquiry about. And that is, if you say everyday mind,

[89:00]

is the way. Yes. Then it's like Doga's question, why practice? We're already enlightened. Everyday mind is the way. Why practice? So the averse of that is if everyday mind is not the way, or if we have some dissatisfaction, can we just rest on it? Or is that motivating? So, I mean, I'm not sure that I think we can kind of enter each side by turn and practice very well. But the notion of everyday mind as a kind of So, if ordinary mind is the way, we could take that as meaning that everything is okay just as it is and we can be very complacent because our disordinary mind without any effort, without any, you know, that that's already the way.

[90:26]

Good. Yeah, that's good. So ordinary mind includes that you're dissatisfied with your ordinary mind. I don't want to respond to this issue because I think you're raising a basic question that's really good and that I think we should look at in terms of what he's calling awesome presence. So I think that that's a fundamental question to bring to this text. What is, how does dignified manner address that confusion of thinking that our ordinary mind means that we don't need awesome presence? So one response, and then I think we're gonna take a break.

[91:27]

But Stephen, you had something to say about this. And I think one of the commentaries on that, someone says, well, clearly, while ordinary mind is the way, there is a difference between a Buddha and a model of Hitler or something, than somebody else. I mean, it's just ordinary mind knows that. I mean, I think that's a subtlety, that somehow this sort of ordinary, common sense mind immediately for a while, you know. You know what I'm saying? That ordinary mind, too, is like, yeah, you know, ordinary mind is the way. Clearly, there is something else that's reality. You know what I'm saying? The ordinary mind doesn't say anything about a larger dimension.

[92:32]

You know, I'm just saying that common sense tells you A philosopher can get you confused, right? But if you use your common sense, you're rarely confused. Your common sense knows that there's a difference. Because if you're taught from a point of view of common sense, your question comes from your common sense.

[92:56]

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