Good morning, so my talk this morning is an introduction to a workshop that I'll be or seminar that I'll be leading this afternoon from 2 to 5 and tomorrow morning from 9.30 to 12 about the Lotus Sutra and its impact and in the teachings of Dogen and Dogen's use of the Lotus Sutra. So both teachings of Dogen and the Lotus Sutra are very important to the background of our Zen practice and to the worldview of our tradition. So how we see the world is very important and we're having a lesson these days in how we see the world and how that can change dramatically very quickly. So what I want

[01:09]

to talk about in this talk this morning is the view of Earth and the view of space as alive in our Zen Buddhist tradition. So there are many aspects to Dogen's use of the Lotus Sutra. I'll talk during the workshop more very much about time and the sacredness of time and some of his other specific references and the use that Dogen makes of the Lotus Sutra in his literary style. But again I want to focus this morning on how we see the earth in Zen Buddhism, how we see space and how we take care of it. So in our Western worldview, often unexamined, we kind of think of the earth as dead, something

[02:13]

that we can exploit, so that it's okay to cut down old growth forests to liquidate assets of a corporation or that it's okay to use the coastlines or wildlife preserves as sites for drilling for oil. This is one of the effects of the way our usual paradigm of seeing the world. So just to say a little bit of introduction about the Lotus Sutra and about Dogen. The Lotus Sutra is one of the most important sutras or scriptures in East Asian Buddhism. So in the Mahayana tradition of Buddhism and the tradition of the Bodhisattva practice, the practice of enlightening beings, this Lotus Sutra is quite important and actually it's in many ways is kind of the dividing line, the difference between Tibetan

[03:15]

Buddhism and Zen Buddhism. The Lotus Sutra gives a very fresh view of what the Bodhisattva is and what awakening is that was different from how that was understood in Indian and now in Tibetan Buddhism. It talks about the importance of faith. So it's not just Zen but actually all of East Asian Buddhism the Lotus Sutra is kind of in the background, very important, or sometimes in the foreground. So early in the Lotus Sutra, starting about a quarter of the way through, the Buddha who is at Vulture Peak, supposedly towards the end of his life, predicts that various of his disciples will in some future Buddha realm, which he names and he describes, will be a Buddha, will become Buddhas thanks to their practice. And he goes on to include everybody in the

[04:23]

assembly in that prediction and he eventually says that everybody who even hears a line of the Lotus Sutra and enjoys it will definitely in the future become a Buddha. So this is very encouraging to a lot of people. And the Lotus Sutra also, one of the great works of spiritual literature in the world, it uses many parables and tells stories, very colorful parables. So maybe we'll talk about some of them during the seminar, but many stories. And this is important to Zen because Zen also uses stories in its teaching a lot, slightly different kind of stories. Stories are usually the Koan tradition of dialogues between great ancient Zen masters. But anyway, this storytelling is one area in which

[05:24]

the Lotus Sutra is a good background for Zen too. So there are various important teachings in the Lotus Sutra. One of the most important is the idea of the one vehicle. So the Lotus Sutra became important in China because of this teaching, which is that all the different kinds of Buddhist practice, all the different sutras, all the different schools, all the different kinds of teachings, are all ultimately part of just one vehicle. That they all serve to lead various different kinds of beings into the path to awakening. So this idea of one vehicle was very important. And the Lotus Sutra was very important in Chinese Buddhist history because when Buddhism came to China from India, there

[06:25]

were many, many different kinds of schools, many scriptures that were translated, and it was pretty confusing. Sound familiar? So I think this idea is also very helpful to us in terms of our, here in the Bay Area, having maybe for the first time since the century after the historical Buddha, having all of Buddhism available, different schools and different cultures. So it can be kind of confusing, you know, the different kinds of Buddhism. But the Lotus Sutra specifically talks about one of the main teachings is the teaching of skillful means, that all the different kinds of teachings are useful and skillful and helpful to various different kinds of people, different kinds of beings, so that they all have their place in the one vehicle. And a lot of the parables are about this idea of skillful means, and then as the Sutra proceeds and it

[07:29]

changes, as the Sutra progresses, it actually changes the way we see what's going on in the Sutra, so that we see that some of the parables were also skillful means. So not only does the Buddha predict that everybody who even hears about the Lotus Sutra will eventually be a Buddha, so now that means all of you, but also that there's a story about an eight-year-old girl who becomes a Buddha quicker than I can say Shakyamuni Buddha. So this is a very different idea from the old idea of what Buddha is and what practice is in the Bodhisattva tradition. Very, very radical. And yet this is the background of East Asian Buddhist practice and of our Zen practice and of the idea of faith that is very important in East Asian Buddhism and in Zen. So the other part of what I'm going to be talking about is the teachings of Ehei

[08:47]

Dogen, a great Japanese Zen master who lived 1200 to 1253. He was the founder of the Soto Zen tradition, which we inherited here at San Francisco Zen Center from Suzuki Roshi, who founded this center, came from Japan. So Dogen's writings are very important actually in the introduction of Zen to the West. A leading editor at one of the most important publishers of English books on Buddhism said to me that for Theravada Buddhist people, the Pasana people, Shakyamuni Buddha is most important. For Tibetans, the Dalai Lama is most important. And for Zen, it's Dogen. And this is kind of interesting because in Japanese history, Dogen's writings were basically unknown maybe a century after his death until about 80 years ago, 75 years ago. Just a few Soto Zen priests and scholars

[09:49]

read his writings. But his writings are quite wonderful and quite evocative and very deep and poetic and now in translation very popular. So Dogen uses many different aspects of the Buddhist tradition. He uses quite a lot the Chinese tradition of the koans and stories. And he comes out of the Japanese poetic tradition too. But also Dogen's teachings, it's not always so obvious because he's talking in this sometimes funny Zen way, but he's also very much coming from the tradition of the Bodhisattva path. And he quotes the Lotus Sutra much more than any other sutra. So he really uses the Lotus Sutra a lot. So some of the ideas

[10:55]

that Dogen talks about at length from the Lotus Sutra, from this chapter on skillful means, he talks about the one vehicle a lot. He also talks about the one great cause for Buddhas appearing in the world, which the Lotus Sutra talks about. So the the single reason for Buddhas appearing in the world is to help lead suffering beings into the path to awakening. This is what the Lotus Sutra says and Dogen talks about that a lot. He also talks also from that early chapter he talks about the idea of only a Buddha together with a Buddha can really understand the meaning of reality. So this idea of Buddhas together with Buddhas actually is another aspect of how the Lotus Sutra changed East Asian Buddhism. In the original Sanskrit version it just says Buddhas, but the great translator Kamarajiva added Buddhas and Buddhas, Buddhas together with

[11:59]

Buddhas. And of course this very much fits into the Zen tradition where we talk about the importance of the relationship between the teacher and the student and of how the teaching is conveyed person to person. So anyway Dogen talks about many ideas from the Lotus Sutra and again what I want to talk about today is one story from the Lotus Sutra that relates to earth and to space and talk about some of the ways in which Dogen's writings echo that. They don't necessarily, well he does quote the story but he echoes it in many ways. But I should mention a disclaimer. This Lotus Sutra is a very challenging sutra. As I said it's really upsetting of even the traditional Bodhisattva worldview. And it was so radical that at the beginning of the

[13:02]

sutra when early in the sutra when Buddha is about to disclose that he's about to reveal this Lotus Sutra, 5,000 monks and other disciples in the assembly get up and walk out. And actually this Lotus Sutra speaks rather harshly about them. But in some ways they were the most advanced practitioner. They were the ones who had really accomplished a lot in their meditation and in their practice where they really had it. And then suddenly here they find out that the Buddha is going to give them a whole new teaching. So they were happy with what they'd done already and didn't want to hear about this. And so in a way Lotus Sutra is very good for beginners mind. If you've accomplished a lot in your practice and your practice is very good maybe you don't need to read the Lotus Sutra. But Dogen says about this that it's okay that they walked out. It's okay that they

[14:05]

left and that eventually they too would become Buddhists and it's okay. So I wanted to just say that because as I'm talking if it starts to upset you please feel free to walk out. It's okay. So again I want to talk this morning about how we see the earth and how we see space in this tradition that comes out of the Lotus Sutra. So there's a particular story in the center of the sutra and it's kind of the pivot of the sutra and the whole idea of what the world is changes through this story. And I'm just going to talk about the very beginning of the story which has to do with space and earth and then I'll talk later today in the seminar about the end of the story which has to do with time and how time is sacred. But anyway about a little ways into the sutra the Buddha

[15:12]

again is supposed to be this is one of his last preachings there in Vulture Peak in northern India and and he starts asking which of you who is going to keep alive this this teaching this teaching of the Lotus Sutra Dharma in the future after I'm gone in the distant evil age in the future evil age he calls it. So you know I hear this for myself as in the future evil age in the age of terrorists and wars carried out against civilians and global warming and massive extinction of species and deforestation in that future age who is who is going to keep alive the teachings of the of the Lotus this Dharma of the Buddhas. So I

[16:15]

kind of take the story personally and what happens to me is one of the basis is for a modern Buddhist view of ecology and environmental protection so I'll kind of talk about that but anyway there are in in the assembly when he's asking this there are many different kinds of beings and there are there's another Buddha who's come and various bodhisattvas have come actually many Buddhists have come to hear the Lotus Sutra and it turns out that they some of them come to hear the Lotus Sutra whenever it's preached and in the distant past and and in other times and in the future they will come their vow is to come and listen to the Lotus Sutra and it says this right in the text called the Lotus Sutra so there's this very mysterious aspect of this text like where is it anyway he some of these these bodhisattvas one group of these

[17:21]

bodhisattvas had come from a distant galaxy far far away and they were there enjoying the Lotus Sutra and they finally they say to the Buddha Oh world honored one if you will allow us then after the Buddha's extinction in this difficult realm of endurance that we live in now by striving to devote vigorous effort to keep read and recite write down and copy and make offerings to this scripture we will broadly preach it in this land so they offer finally to come and and in the future after Buddha to keep the sutra alive and then after kind of you know asking about all about this all this time the Buddha says stop good people there's no need for you to keep the scripture why is that in this realm of endurance we itself there are bodhisattvas equal in number to the

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sands of 60,000 Ganges rivers each of whom has in turn a retinue equal in number to the sands of 60,000 Ganges rivers after my extinction these people shall be able to keep read and recite and broadly preach the sutra and as soon as the Buddha said this the earth trembled and split and from the open space below the ground emerge into the air millions and billions and many many many great bodhisattvas it says when these bodhisattvas heard the sound of Shakyamuni Buddha's voice they emerged from below each bodhisattva at the head of and commanding a great multitude so some of them had thousands and you know thousands and thousands of disciples some of them only had a few but there were many many many of them so this there's more to the story and maybe I'll say a little more but just that part of the story is very striking to me so it

[19:32]

talks about how from out of the open space within the ground these bodhisattvas emerge and that they're always practicing diligently the Buddha talks about their practice and some of them are obviously have been practicing and you know they look like very ancient sages and have been doing this bodhisattva practice helping to alleviate the suffering of beings for many many ages so for me this represents that this awakening arises from the ground from the earth itself from the ground of our own being so in our sitting practice in zazen our awareness our insights our sense of wholeness arise from who knows where

[20:33]

somewhere under our cushions you know somehow it's there and maybe we don't always see it but when it's called forth it's there and there are these great bodhisattvas practicing so there are many ways many images for the earth in Buddhism one of them famous ones is Shakyamuni Buddha when he awakened his final challenge from Mara was who are you to call yourself a Buddha and he touched the ground with his fingers so sometimes you'll see statues of the Buddha and his hand is down touching the ground and it said that then the earth itself or sometimes it says the earth goddess appeared and said yes this is a Buddha so the earth verifies awakening and in terms of our practice I think it means that our that awakening and our helpful activity happens not somewhere

[21:34]

else right here this body this mind this life in whatever situation we're in whatever difficulties whatever confusion whatever is going on in the world around us this possibility for responding with wholeness to responding helpfully is right here if we can stop and quiet down and sit upright right in the middle of it so this earth or this earth is has as its nature space and in in Buddhism I think earth is when he talks about when it talks about the earth is talking about the nature of reality and the nature of space itself so it's the earth but it's not just it's not the earth as opposed to water and fire and air it's it's presence right here

[22:37]

so maybe I should before I was going to talk about various ways in which Dogen echoes this he also quotes the story a lot but I'm going to talk about some of Dogen's teachings about space and the earth but maybe I should just tell you a bit about the ending of the story in the Lotus Sutra if you're ready so everybody's sitting down okay so when all of these great bodhisattvas appear from out of the earth some of the regular disciples of the Buddha are puzzled and finally Maitreya bodhisattva the great bodhisattva of loving-kindness who is predicted to be the next future Buddha Maitreya says who are these guys I've never seen them before where they come from who is their teacher where have they been studying how come we haven't seen them and the Buddha says well actually they've always been there under the ground and actually I'm their

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teacher and then some of the disciples get even more upset and say well wait a second some of these people are you know obviously have been practicing for ages you know very venerable and ancient ones and we know that you you know left the palace and and wandered around and and then were awakened about 40 years ago how could you be their teacher you know we saw Keanu Reeves in the movie we know what happened and this is like this is like a 25 year old person saying I'm the father of a hundred-year-old person a hundred-year-old person and the hundred-year-old man saying oh I'm the son of this 25 year old man what's going on how can this be and so the Buddha reveals one of the other great teaching in the Lotus Sutra besides the skillful means in one vehicle is this

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teaching that actually even though it looks like at some point you know 20 or 40 or whatever years ago the Buddha left home and came to Zen Center and whatever started his practice actually he says the amount of time since my awakening is vast and he gives some huge one of these Indian mathematical you know huge and huge amounts that I get lost in right immediately but anyway he says that I've been actually been a Buddha for a very very long time and I will continue to be the Buddha for twice that long in the future and but I but I tell people that I was born and that I was awakened and passed into extinction because they might feel like they might kind of feel like they don't need to practice if they thought I was here all the time so to encourage for the sake of beings to

[25:51]

encourage them to help them find their way to awakening into their own Buddhahood he pretends to be born and die and so forth anyway this is what the Lotus Sutra says at the end of the story so I wasn't going to tell you that this morning but maybe maybe it's time so anyway I'll talk about that more and how that represents the sacredness of time but I want to come back to this idea of the earth and of space so again Dogen talks about this in various ways and there's a there's an essay in his great work that Shu Dharma I treasury or Shobo Genzo that's called space so again I think this has to do with this open space under the ground right within the earth out of which arises this

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awakening in these great bodhisattvas so this is a story about two Zen masters who were Dharma brothers and their names sound alike so I'll just say the older brother and the younger brother and the older one asked do you know how to grasp space and the younger one said yes I do and the older one said how do you grasp it and the younger one did something like that stroke the air with his hand and the older one said you don't know how to grasp space and the younger one says how do you grasp it older brother and the older one stuck his finger in his younger brother's nostril and pulled ah you're killing me you tried to pull my nose off he yells in pain and the older one says you can grasp it now so ordinarily we think of space as this kind of empty container you know space is out there space is I don't know it's the final frontier it's you know between here and Mars or the next galaxy but

[27:53]

actually as Dogen says space is one ball that bounces here and there space is actually the nature of form Dogen says it is not that space and other space reached out together with one hand no effort was needed for grasping space there's no gap in the entire world to let space in but this story has been a peel of thunder in space so there's you know space you know between here and the moon there's space between me and Michael there's space between my ears you know space is the nature of everything so they're talking so these stories about space and about the earth are about how the world is so there's a

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kind of pun involved in this too because the character that Chinese character that is translated as space also could be translated as the sky but it also means emptiness so some of you know the Heart Sutra says that which is form is emptiness that which is emptiness is form form is exactly emptiness emptiness is exactly form so this space is the nature of form this space is the way form is and that old Zen master pulling the other one's nose was trying to show him that and I guess he got it Dogen says about this you have some understanding of grasping space even if you have a good finger to grasp space you should penetrate the inside and outside of space you should kill space and give life to space you should know the weight of space you should trust that the Buddha ancestors endeavor of the way in aspiration practice and enlightenment throughout the challenging dialogues is no other than grasping space so this grasping space includes

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killing space and giving life to space it includes how do we take care of space or how do we take care of the world space is not just the air between things spaces things themselves when his nose was pulled the younger brother realized this that space was not just empty air so space isn't an abstraction but it's actually the dynamic effort in our practice and it's the way that the world itself practices so this is a different idea of the world then we then we usually have another place where Dogen talks about this is in a writing called Bendowa and there's a section of it called the self-fulfillment Samadhi and I want to read part of this Dogen says

[31:00]

when one displays the Buddha mudra the position of Buddha with one's whole body in mind sitting upright in this meditation even for a short time everything in the entire world becomes this Buddha mudra and all space in the universe completely becomes enlightenment so maybe you never heard that space can actually become enlightened but this is what Dogen says happens when we are sitting the world around us also sits the world around us feels this possibility of wholeness and uprightness and of being present in the middle of whatever is coming up it's not just that so this sounds kind of mystical or something but he but there's a way in which there's this very deep relationship and interconnectedness between ourselves and everything around us we're deeply intimately

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interconnected with everything this is basic Buddhist teaching he continues in that writing Dogen says there is a path through which the complete perfect enlightenment of all things returns to the person in Zazen and whereby that person and the enlightenment of all things intimately and imperceptibly assist each other so when we sit we change the space around us and we are assisted and helped by the space around us by the world around us by the earth under our cushions this is what he's saying and again this is this this in this place he's not directly referring to that story of the bodhisattvas coming from out of the ground but I feel the connection he goes on therefore this person in Zazen without fail drops off body and mind cuts away previous unwholesome views of the world awakens genuine Buddha Dharma and universally

[33:02]

helps the Buddha work in each place and widely influences practitioners who are going beyond Buddha vigorously exalting the teaching and going beyond Buddha at this time because earth grasses trees fences walls tiles pebbles all things in the world carry out Buddha work therefore everyone receives the benefit of this functioning and all are imperceptibly helped by the wondrous and incomprehensible influence of Buddha to actualize the Enlightenment at hand so this sounds very lofty but he what he's talking about is our deep relationship to the earth to the world to the space around us so in the Lotus Sutra story the bodhisattvas when they hear the voice of the Buddha come forth they are there in the earth in this openness in this space in the earth and are there and can help keep the teaching of awakening and the practice of awakening

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alive even in whatever future evil ages and it's not just that this happens in some abstract way but there's actually this mysterious hidden assistance or guidance that happens between the person awakening and the earth and the world around them so there's a kind of responsibility here there's a kind of attention here to how are we supporting the world around us and how is it supporting us how is everything in the world supporting you to be able to be here this morning sitting and hearing about the Dharma and it's mysterious we don't understand it it's beyond our usual ways of understanding how the world works so maybe this is the leap of faith in the Lotus Sutra but if you

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actually try this practice and stick to it you may come to have some confidence and trust that actually by being present and upright in the middle of your life you can see your life as related to the world and the earth around you and that what you do makes a difference and has an effect. One other little excerpt from Dogen I want to give before we close. This is from Dogen's extensive record he also talks about it in the same story in a Shobo Genzo essay that's in the Enlightenment Unfolds book. Anyway Dogen says in this version of it the world-honored one the Buddha said when one person opens up reality and returns to the source all space in the ten

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directions disappears no more space no more gaps just so this is a quote from a Buddhist Sutra what the Buddha said and then Dogen quotes a few other old Chinese Zen masters and what they say about this. One of them said when one person opens up reality and returns to the source all space in the ten directions crashes together resounding everywhere. So there is this resounding in space. There are thunderbolts in space when one person is willing to face reality and return to the source. Another version of this from the Zen master who wrote the Blue Cliff Record when one person opens up reality and returns to the source in all space in the ten directions flowers are added on to brocade. So he's saying that already space is beautiful but

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flowers are added when we face our life. Another one said when one person opens up reality and returns to the source all space in the ten directions is simply all space in the ten directions. Like that one. Just as it is. Then Dogen quotes his teacher Tiantong Rujing or Tendon Yojo in Japanese who was his Chinese master when he went to China. And his teacher had said although the world honored one made the statement when one person opens up reality and returns to the source all space in the ten directions disappears. This utterance cannot avoid becoming an extraordinary assessment. I'm not like that. And then his teacher said when one person opens up reality and returns to the source a mendicant monk breaks his rice bowl. So no more need to beg no more need to practice. Maybe that's what that means. But then Dogen says himself the previous

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five venerable teachers said it this way but I have a saying that's not like theirs. And then he says when one person opens up reality and returns to the source all space in the ten directions opens up reality and returns to the source. So Dogen emphasizes in this case too very much that space itself and the earth itself can awaken. So this all sounds a little abstract maybe but I think it has a great deal of relevance to how we see the world around us and how we take care of the world and how we see our environment. In Dogen's writings about his instructions for the monastic practice and for the community practice and particularly for the he talks about particular instructions and the right attitude and approach to practice for

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people in different positions in the monastery. When he talks about the manager of the farm or the field he says that they have to do all the practices the other monks do but also that they need to pay close attention to the earth and to the seasons and to the rainfall and so forth and that they should actually sleep in a hut near the fields and make that their practice. But a part of what they have to do is also to make daily offerings to their in Japanese are called Ryuten and Doji the spirit of the sky the dragon spirit of the sky is Ryuten who takes care of the weather and Doji is the spirit protective spirit of the earth. So there's a way in which it's not just paying attention to you know the soil and the rain but also to the spirit of that and the awakening possibility of that and the spirits that take care of the weather and take care of the earth. This is a different way of thinking than we usually have. Again our basic Newtonian physics paradigm of the world

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which is of course not what modern physics says but it's usually how we think is that the world is a bunch of dead objects. But this way of seeing the world that the Lotus Sutra encourages and the Dogon encourages is that actually space is alive not just that it's alive but that it has the possibility of awakening and of helping us awaken and helping us in our practice. And that there is and that it contributes to this single one cause for for Buddha's appearing which is to help all beings and that includes all the beings of nature so we need to take care of the world. There's this isn't just a description of reality but it's kind of a prescription. So the Bodhisattva practice is to protect the earth and the space around us to take care of it as best we can and to help all beings and the earth itself to receive awakening

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guidance from all beings and from the earth itself. So when the Buddha asks who will take care of the Lotus Sutra who will take care of this Dharma of the Buddha this teaching of the Buddha in the future when I'm not here even though later he says well I'm always there but who's going to take care of this world of causes and conditions. There's still this responsibility that we all have in this way of seeing the world. So again this is the kind of the the worldview and the spiritual background for seeing a Buddhist perspective on the environment and on taking care of the environment and seeing how the world fits together and seeing the seeing ecology. And part of our practice is to try and take care of that and at Zen Center we've been working at that and

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continue to think about how to do that. And actually I'm really happy to announce a victory this morning least temporary victory for environmental protection and for speaking out. So some of you know there was a meeting was announced for after this talk. There's been a plan for a little while that the United States Navy has had to have a bombing range in the Ventana Wilderness which is where Tassajara Monastery or a monastery way deep in the mountains east of Big Sur is. And the plan included a thousand bombing runs a year, 12 passes for each plane on the bombing range which is not right next to Tassajara but near the coast but would mean that fighter jets would be flying over the area about 144 times a day. And the Ventana

[43:44]

Wilderness is for any of you how many of you have been to Tassajara? Quite a few of you. So it's a beautiful area and the wilderness around it is a home for ancient Native American sacred sites and relics and for a great deal of wildlife it's really a wonderful beautiful remote place. And so there's been a kind of coalition of people including Zen Center and Tassajara and the Kamaldolese Monastery on the coast of Big Sur, the Benedictine Monastery which the planes would be the bombing ranges would be very close to. And we've been lobbying and other people in the Monterey area have been lobbying to try and not have this happen in this you know great natural preserve. And representative Sam Farr from Carmel has been very active in trying to lobby against this. And

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according to our latest information they actually are, we've actually succeeded. They were having an environmental impact review and that's been postponed indefinitely it seems. So we still need to be vigilant and pay attention to what's happening there. And as I said we were planning to have a meeting this afternoon right after this meeting. And how many of you particularly came for that? Well a few. Anyway we'll have we'll have a regular question and answer period in the dining room and we can talk about that a little bit in the beginning for people who have questions and let you know. But at any rate at this point this is an example of how it can make a difference to speak out and to say your truth and to try and act to protect space and the environment. So I'm very happy to announce that. And just to encourage you all to see that the world

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with all its difficulty and cruelty sometimes and now with this fear that we're all feeling because of the terrorists and maybe because of what might happen depending on how our government responds to it and just end the war and so forth. That this is part of space and part of the world and how we respond to it and how we keep paying attention to it. How we take care of the earth in the middle of that does make a difference. And part of that is just being present and sitting. That's okay but just to see that but then also to see what's going on in the world and in the society around us and in whatever way feels right from your seat from the space under the ground you're sitting on to respond because it does make a difference and it's actually a

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wonderful opportunity for practice because we're in a situation where what we do does make a difference. So thank you all very much. We'll have a discussion

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