So I wanted to begin by apologizing. I apparently tempted the gods or the spirits of this place. I told people yesterday that I'd never seen rain in Oregon. Now I have. It's lovely. So I thought I'd start by reviewing a little bit. I don't know if I should wait or just go ahead. Okay. So we'll maybe this afternoon get to that. I don't know. We'll see.

[01:00]

Yeah, I don't think so. So I spoke yesterday a little bit about Hongzhi's background. I didn't go too much into his story and history and all that, but just put him a little bit in the context of Soto Zen and talked about Buddha nature as a kind of main teaching and way of teaching in cultivating the empty field and also about nature metaphors and his use of that to show us the kind of ordinary mind of silent illumination. And then I talked about objectless meditation. But are there questions or comments, anything that's come up about Buddha nature and the nature metaphors? We have absolutely no questions. I guess not. OK. I have a question.

[02:05]

Does the rain have Buddha nature? The majority of it has Buddha nature. OK. It is Buddha nature. OK. I talked about objectless meditation and that there's no particular object or that in the samadhi of serene illumination, whatever happens, everything is the object of attention, the object of samadhi. And also that there's no specific objective. So part of that, I wanted to say a little more about that no goal, that there are in, Mahayana Buddhism and sometimes in some Zen setups, lists of stages of practice and so forth. The Dasa Bhumika or 10-stage Sutra and the Flower Ornament Sutra goes through 10 stages and then even more in the Gandavyuha, the Sudhanas traveling around to 53 different teachers.

[03:16]

Those are all 53 stages of Bodhisattvahood and so forth. But from the point of view of Soto, orthodox Soto practice and teaching from Dongshan through Hongzhe and Dogen and so forth, it's not that there are really particular stages of attainment. There are all those systems of stages of practice and from the Soto viewpoint of stagelessness, one can take on any of those practices, but actually, as Dogen says from the, in Bendewell, one of his very first writings from, if you even sit for a little while, the first time you sit for a little while, taking on, fully expressing in body and mind, the Buddha mudra, all of space becomes enlightened. So, enlightenment isn't something that you, you know,

[04:19]

There is unfolding and development of awakening and of our ability to express and share it, as I talked about graciously sharing yourself, as Hongshu says. But it's not exactly that there are ranks. So the five ranks teaching, really, it means five ontological aspects of this process of integration of universal and particular. Yes? What does it mean to fully express the Buddha mudra? So Zazen, formally, some of us are sitting in chairs now and I've been learning the last few months as my knees prevented me from doing my usual half lotus that it's possible to do it sitting in a chair. But to actually sit upright in body and mind, there's this mudra. But there's also just the openness of body and mind, dropping off of body and mind.

[05:24]

And so you're all doing it. But you really take it on. to give yourself completely to just doing the ceremony of Zazen, this ritual enactment of Zazen. I think that's what Dogen means. And this is the starting point of his teaching really in Bendowa. I was mentioning to some people that my next forthcoming book is about how his teaching unfolds the relationship of the Zazen person to space and to time as awakening agents. So the level of this practice, as human beings, we have to deal with it psychologically and so forth, inner critic, and all of the different aspects of what the obstructions are of our particular consciousness. This is why to talk about stages is kind of human defilement or it's a skillful means to try and encourage people.

[06:40]

But really, from the very first, there is this relationship to reality, to space and time. So, I'm sure I didn't, I hope I didn't answer your question, but. Other comments or questions? It always seemed to me that the fundamental difference between sattva and rinzai practice are balanced each other. The rinzai practice of stages and clear awakening. which are involved. And then people get tighter and tighter in practice, which gets in the way of opening into what is. So the Soto orthodox view is an antidote to that, saying, there's no place to go. You are already the Buddha. You're such a relaxing, relaxing pre-major single student.

[07:44]

But I think they have to balance each other, because a number of Soto teachers felt dissatisfied with Soto's tradition, saying, well, what happened to enlightenment? I want the experience of enlightenment. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Well, the basic Mahayana viewpoint is there are different practices for different kinds of people and at different times we need different practices. So obviously, that Rinzai approach works for some people. It's helpful. So it's great. But I'm speaking from the Soto side. I don't think enlightenment is about some experience. I mean, you know, it happens that people do have Kensho experiences in ordinary Soto stageless sessions, but enlightenment is not about getting, you know, getting a hold of some particular personal experience.

[09:03]

Enlightenment is, the unfolding of this original bodhichitta. And that happens in different ways for different people. And so this idea that from Hirata Sogaku, and it's part of Rinzai, not all of Rinzai, that you have to get some experience of Kensho. So I emphasize Genjo rather than Kensho. From Soto perspective, the point is not to see Buddha nature, I mean, it's okay if that happens. It's okay if you have some flashy experience. They're wonderful and lovely and also sometimes dangerous if you're not ready for them. But the point of our practice is to genjo the koan of Buddha nature, to manifest it, to actualize it, to put it into practice in the world. So that's what I was talking about in terms of the purpose of our practice, that we actually have to share this. learn to unfold it.

[10:04]

So by saying there's no stages doesn't mean that there is no transformation and development. There is this unfolding and opening of our ability each in our own way to Genjo Buddha nature. So this is the Soto perspective on it. And I'm not saying that other approaches including the 10 stages or the 53 stages or the 300 koans or whatever, aren't useful for some people. Of course, they are. My attitude towards just sitting practice as I teach it with my students is to use those things when they're helpful, to use all of those different approaches. But anyway, from the point of view of Hongzhe and Dongshan and Dogen, we just genjo Buddha nature. And that's the point. So to be in delusion throughout delusion, delusion is the genjo koan of delusion. Dongshan says, in the Hokyo Samae, it's not a matter of delusion or enlightenment.

[11:10]

So trying to get a hold of enlightenment and get rid of delusion is a big delusion. Yes. I know that there are many levels a relative level, can you manifest Buddha nature without having had the experience or the insight? Does that make sense? Well, what does it mean to not have had the experience or insight? To think that I've not had the insight. Yeah. So Ngenjo Kohan Dogen says that Buddhas do not necessarily think that they are Buddhas. Buddhas can walk down the street not necessarily having the thought, oh, I'm a Buddha. I mean, they might. It might occur to them. But it might not. So identifying some experience of Kensho is not necessary to expressing, to Genjo-ing Buddha nature. The other side of it is, Zuki Roshi said, talking about walking through Golden Gate Park in the fog, naturally my robes get wet, get moist.

[12:21]

So just to do this practice, it does unfold in us. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't have some understanding of it, or if you have some flashy experience of it, that's great. There's nothing wrong with that. But that's not the point. So this is not just Soto as opposed to Rinzai. There's a book edited by Steve Hine and Dale Wright called The Koan from Oxford University Press, and there's a wonderful essay in there by Victor Sogen Hori, who's probably, well, according to very reliable sources, has gone further in the Rinzai, the orthodox Japanese Rinzai Koan curriculum than any other Westerner. He now teaches academically at McGill University. But he talks about Kensho in there. I really recommend that article. And one of the things he says, Kensho is not a thing. Kensho is a verb.

[13:23]

So to Kensho, so he uses it the way I use Genjo, to Kensho each situation. So Dogen talks about Buddha going beyond Buddha, this going beyond Buddha. In some sense, just the fact that you're here, that you've showed up, is a testimony to Buddha. And then to ongoingly express that is, from the point of view of Soto Zen, the point. So again, if you have some experience, that's fine. But then, get over it. Yes, Shogen. Okay. So anyway, there are different perspectives on this, and it's not that there's one right perspective. But anyway, that's, as I see it, the orthodox viewpoint from Dong Shan and Hongzhe and Dogen. And so there's no particular objective.

[14:27]

There's no particular experience that you need to get in zazen, in unfolding this Buddha mudra. And yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the essay Sound of Valley Streams by Dogen, the one translation I read, it basically said you should repent before Buddhas and ancestors to clear your karmic obstructions to Kensho. He encourages people explicitly. To clear your karmic obstructions, not to Kensho, but to clear your karmic obstructions. It's not about Kensho. It's just, that we have, you know, as, so going back to what Hongzhe says, in the beginning of the practice instructions, the field of boundless emptiness is what exists from the very beginning. You must purify, cure, grind down, or brush away all the tendencies you have fabricated into apparent habits.

[15:36]

Then you can reside in the clear circle of brightness. Utter emptiness has no image. Upright independence does not rely on anything. Just expand and illuminate the original truth unconcerned by external conditions. So enlightenment is not a thing. Some experience, subtle or dramatic of enlightenment is not a thing to get. It's actually available always right now. This is the teaching of suchness that Dongshan talked about in the Jomar Samadhi. And yes, we have to study the self and study the way in which our ways of fragmenting ourself from others and from our environment and from ourselves get in the way of our just genjoing the situation right now, of meeting suchness right now. And sometimes we see that dramatically. So there are those experiences. But that's not the point or the purpose of practice.

[16:36]

your comments. And please respond. And if you disagree with something I say, please, we can talk about it. Yeah. That's not a problem. Good. So again, I'm not promoting one viewpoint about practice and dharma as opposed to some other. The basic context for me of just sitting is whatever helps. So sometimes, for some of us, to kind of be pushed by our teacher is very important. That's probably necessary as part of training. But again, the point is, how do we graciously share that with everyone? with all beings, not just certain beings. So, it's not a tribal thing. It's not just Soto or just Rinzai or just Buddhist, certainly not Democrat or Republican.

[17:42]

how do we express this Buddha Mudra completely, wholeheartedly in our body and mind, but from the context of precepts. So that side is not so much part of traditional Japanese or Chinese Zen. So that's a whole other topic we could get into. But the graciously sharing ourselves, how do we respond to problems in our society? I do want to talk about Hongzhi's teaching about particular Zazen instructions, but you mentioned Yasutani Roshi and now we know that he was… really astonishingly anti-Semitic and supported the militarism of Japan before World War II and during World War II. Not just went along with it, but actively supported it. So this is a kind of a warning to us in terms of how we see our expression of practice.

[18:53]

In the Dharma teachings, there are instructions about how we relate in Sangha to each other. But how we take care of the world around us, I think this is a big question for us in the middle of American militarism and all the things that are going on. And Zen traditionally, one explanation of this is that when Buddhism came from India to China, there was already this developed Chinese social ethic of Confucianism, and it was basically it was complementary to Buddhism. So they didn't need to develop in China and Japan a kind of Zen social ethic about how to respond to problems in the world. So it was okay to go to Confucianism and Buddhism had this way in which they complemented each other pretty well and it worked. for a long time, more or less, and then we get into Samurai Zen in Japan, and it started to be problems in Asian Buddhism. Dogen split the capital.

[19:58]

He went off way up into the mountains. Hongjo also was way up in the mountains, although he had government ministers and so forth who were students of his and who would come to hear him talk. But mostly, in Asian cultures, We're doing this practice of keeping alive this possibility of practice in the world and representing a counterculture to the ordinary worldly idea of gain and so forth. And now here we are and we have a social ethic that also is worthy of and complimentary of Buddhism of equal justice under the law and life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and so forth, the Declaration of Interdependence and all of that. And yet, How do we respond in the time of militarism? So that's a whole other topic that has to do with how do we express this in the world. I think that's really one of the big challenges for us. And this has to do with not whether we have some particular understanding of enlightenment or experience of enlightenment, but how do we express it however we're sitting.

[21:07]

How do we express it in our lives with each other in Sangha and also as Sangha relates and responds to the world around us. You had a question? Yeah, and you just mentioned something that kind of started on an answer for me. And I don't know if there's an answer. And I guess I'd like you to comment. I don't understand how there are people of great understanding on this. You have to tell me where she or she and her. And yet, they have these really obnoxious quirks or personality, I don't know what to call it, problem. And maybe I have an image. who have a great heart and see the damage that they might be doing, and yet there are the same individuals who get hurt. And you kind of touched on that. Could you say a little bit more? I don't have answers to that. But all through American Zen and almost every lineage, there have been big problems.

[22:09]

This, I think, goes back to this, what I was saying about enlightenment is not some thing. It doesn't solve all our problems. It's a way of responding. It helps us to see how to genjo the koan of our lives. Well, we've been, you know, I don't know most of you very well, but from an Orthodox Buddhist point of view, we've been practicing together for many lifetimes. And we've also been screwing up and making mistakes and being caught by not just inner critics, but all kinds of conditioning for a long time. So the Fox Koan is about, it doesn't say, the question wasn't originally, does an enlightened person is an enlightened person subject to cause and effect, but literally it says is a greatly cultivated person subject to cause and effect.

[23:18]

And the answer that frees the fox is that the greatly cultivated person does not ignore cause and effect. It's not blind to cause and effect. Part of Buddha going beyond Buddha is that as in new problems arise, whether it's from our ancient karma, ancient twisted karma, or from the society around us, how do we respond to that? having great cultivation being deeply soaked in this experience of whatever you want to call it, silent illumination or Kensho or whatever, doesn't necessarily fix everything. So maybe that's an easy answer. I don't have a real answer to that except that we all have to really pay attention and keep paying attention. to ourselves and the world around us. And as we practice more and more, There are stuff that drops away.

[24:21]

There are habits that drop away. When I first started, a month or so after I started practicing, this is a really crass example, excuse me, but I quit smoking cigarettes after a pack and a half a day for eight years. I just came out of the Zendo one evening after being there for three hours, two periods, and a little before, and I had been enjoying my breathing, and I hadn't smoked a cigarette that whole time, which is as long as I'd gone without smoking a cigarette. a long time and I didn't want to smoke anymore and I didn't. And then last August, a Dharma brother of mine who's an acupuncturist suggested that I stop drinking coffee. And I like coffee and I've been drinking, I don't know, three or four or five cups a day for decades. But I said, okay. And so I haven't, well, actually I had one cup in, two cups in December and one cup in February. Anyway, just so I wouldn't be totally pure. So those are really crass examples, but there are things that drop away. I'm not speaking against tobacco or coffee.

[25:24]

We all have our addictions, but inner habits are more difficult to drop away, but it's possible. that things drop away, but still, as we practice more, that becomes subtler, and it's possible that a situation would arise where we would do something harmful. So the basic practice is just to pay attention to what's going on, to meet suchness in front of us, to genjo suchness in front of us, and in the precepts, there are lots of teachings that can help us deal with that. But we're human beings and we have to forgive ourselves for being human beings. We're practicing this as human beings. So if you have some idea or ideal of how a Buddha would be or how an enlightened person would be or how somebody who's had a Kensho experience would be, that's a big delusion. We are human beings meeting the world of human beings, and so the practice is just to pay attention and try and be kind to ourselves and others and helpful and so forth.

[26:33]

Yes, you go. Just feel free to answer this or not, but a big question for me and one that you began to touch on also is, how can you simultaneously be samsara and yet have the awareness of need for change and the eye that sees ways to fix things. Yeah, they're not separate. So because of the perfection of all things, we have a lot of work to do. Because the perfection of all things includes working out the karma of all things. So I've been, one of my big koans the last several years is how to stop the war. And I've been working at that in lots of different ways, trying to see what to do. And recently, a couple months ago, started a vigil and teach-in against torture at UC Berkeley because one of the architects of

[27:37]

The torture program of our government all over the world is a law professor at UC Berkeley, and nobody was doing anything. So we've been holding a weekly vigil and teaching, and it's starting to get some attention. But really, the problem in the world, in our country today, is not just about George Bush or Dick Cheney. It's the culmination of 500 years of racism, of slavery, of almost wiping out the Native American peoples. So we're living in really dark ages, and the human species is really you know, kind of sad in some ways at times. And we're really, you know, from some point of view, well, I'm encouraged by birds, you know, because birds evolved from dinosaurs, so I feel like there's hope for human beings. So everything is perfect just the way it is.

[28:43]

means that we have a lot of work to do, that we can see the perfection which is the unfolding of karma, the unfolding in our society, our confusion about sexuality and the struggle that we all have in dealing with that and those urges and impulses which can be part of practice in relationship. How do we end the struggle with how to respond to our society and so forth? So in some ways, all of the things I was going to talk about this weekend don't address any of that directly. And yet, I think also there are tools for us. So I do want to get back to that at some point. But we can talk about anything, as Hogan suggested. So. Go ahead and get back. No, Chazan, you had a comment. Sure. Sure. Well, yeah, in Dogen's time there were corpses littering the streets of Kyoto at times, just as in our time.

[29:56]

Well, they don't show the corpses and the damaged bodies coming back from Iraq, but they don't show all of the corpses littering the streets of Fallujah and Baghdad and so forth. But yeah, it's a dark time. And in some ways, this is really dark because the danger is really extreme in terms of global climate change and in terms of nuclear proliferation. nuclear waste and it's extremely dangerous. I feel kind of hopeful because it's also a time when lots of people are turning towards some kind of practice and some kinds of awareness and a lot of people understand what's going on and have acted in various ways against it. So, I don't feel hopeless at all or discouraged occasionally. Yeah. And actually, this is something I learned from Joanna Macy and recently found out that Nietzsche and sort of said the same thing, that because these times are so dangerous, it's a wonderful time to be doing bodhisattva practice.

[31:10]

We're very fortunate to be practicing in these terrible times because everything we do, any little bit of kindness that we genjo in the world makes a big difference. So this is a time when we're really needed. And each of us, in whatever way you individually, your particular body and mind, on your particular chair or cushion, is Genjo-ing Buddha nature, is very important for the world. And Nichiren, back in Dogen's time, they said the same thing. This was the age of Mappo and the Dharma's declining. Dogen didn't agree with that, although he used it sometimes as an encouragement to his monks to practice. But Nichiren said sort of similarly, well, this is Mappo, and so it's a wonderful time to be doing Bodhisattva practice. Anyway, so the fact that it's a really dark time is good news for us. Bodhisattvas, because they realize the perfection of all things, take on lots of work and take on the structure of living in a monastery for a while and being trained to really meet suchness and express it in the bell rings and you do the next thing, just responding to the world around us.

[32:23]

So it's a good question, Yuko, and it's an important question. And I think it's not that the two conflict, actually, because in the widest sense, everything is just unfolding as it is. That's not happening in some objective world. So people hear about perfection, or enlightenment, or kensho, and think of it as something out there. We are connected with it. We are part of the world. The world doesn't belong to us. So, thank you. Other comments or questions? We can come back to this. I'm happy to talk about anything together. But I did want to talk about Hongzhe's silent illumination teachings in terms of some of the practical ways that he allows us to engage in suchness.

[33:29]

So actually, maybe it's really good that we had this discussion first because we can, it's a context for looking at what he has to offer. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So I'm going to read two sections that I read yesterday, but I want to talk about them in a different way. Because Hongxia offers us particular, specific practice instructions. in perception. So when you're sitting on your cushion, of course, the basic sound illumination practice is objectless. Whatever comes up, just to meet it, to be present, to be present and aware, to be upright in the middle of whatever is thoughts and feelings and sounds and sensations.

[34:36]

But he offers some very specific context. So one of the things I read last night, I won't read the whole part. This is from the first part of The Bright Boundless Field, page 30. He says, the deep source transparent down to the bottom can radiantly shine and can respond unencumbered to each speck of dust without becoming its partner. The subtlety of seeing and hearing transcends mere colors and sounds. the whole affair functions without leaving traces and mirrors without obscurations. Very naturally, mind and dharmas emerge and harmonize." So mind and objects could be read there. Emerge, arise, and harmonize. So this harmonizing is the point here. And the way he says it there is that

[35:38]

First of all, the deep source, transparent down to the bottom. So again, the source is not a thing either, but it's this creative energy which arises in our body and mind as we sit over 40 minutes or over 10 years or 20 years or whatever. It can radiantly shine and can respond unencumbered to each object dust, each speck of objects without becoming its partner. We don't have to get latched on to objects of seeing or hearing or thinking. This also applies to thinking and that's more difficult to actually do as a practice because we're more tangled up in our thinking. But I think just to do it in terms of seeing and hearing, he says the subtlety of seeing and hearing transcends mere colors and sounds. So to sit just and we sit with our eyes open. Do you have your eyes open? Okay. Well, there is this instruction in Soto Zen to sit with your eyes open, and that doesn't mean that sometimes the eyelids get tired and we might close them a little bit.

[36:51]

But sitting with eyes open to me is like sitting with ears open. Partly, it's about not falling asleep, but it's also about being open to what's in front of us. So, he says here, the subtlety of seeing and hearing transcends mere colors and sounds. So, when you're seeing and hearing, you can latch on to colors or shapes or forms. As I look down, there are these arcs of these steps and anyway, the pattern in the rug or whatever, and then sounds. There's a clock ticking, and there's the heater. So we can latch on to those as objects. But here he says, the subtlety of seeing and hearing transcends mere colors and sounds. So as I said, I translated this starting 18 years ago. And only recently, in the last year or so, have I realized a difference between that and this instruction at the very end.

[37:55]

So I read the part about graciously share yourself on page 55 last night. And I want to go back to that. Again, he's talking about the source, when you have thoroughly investigated your roots back to their ultimate source. 1,000 or 10,000 sages are no more than footprints on the trail. In wonder, return to the journey, which means take another breath or take another step or whatever. Avail yourself of the path and walk ahead or keep practicing. In light, there is darkness. Where it operates, no traces remain. with a hundred grass tips in the busy marketplace, graciously share yourself." And then he says how to do that. Wide open and accessible, walking along, casually mount the sounds and straddle the colors while you transcend listening and surpass watching. So I thought of those two instructions. And he talks about this process of how we perceive in Zazen and in various other places, but it's most clear in those two. And I thought of those as sort of the same. And then I realized there's this shift.

[38:56]

One is at the very beginning of the practice instructions, and one is, I think it's the next to the last section. No, third from the last section. The section about graciously share yourself. And it's different. Do you hear the difference? The first one is, The subtlety of seeing and hearing transcends mere colors and sounds. But then here he says, wide open and accessible, walking along, casually mount the sounds and straddle the colors while you transcend listening and surpass watching. So this goes back to this subtle teaching of the interpenetration of the universal and the particular. But I want to talk about it in a way that to use it as a specific Zazen practice. So again, in the first one, it's seeing and hearing. Our seeing, the subjective, goes beyond the mere objects of colors and sounds.

[40:02]

And minds and dharmas emerge and harmonize. So this is kind of the subjective side. Don't get caught in the objects But in graciously share yourself in that section, again, after turning within, after cultivating this inner empty field, then sharing ourselves is functioning in the world. And we casually mount the sounds and straddle the colors, transcending our listening and watching, going beyond subjective. So these are two sides of the same practice instruction. So what I want to do is actually, I think we can just do it here to sit Zaza in a little bit with this instruction. But I want to say a little more about it first. So this is kind of subtle and I'm not sure if it makes sense the way I'm talking about it. But it has to do with how we pay attention to the process of

[41:04]

perception as we're sitting, expressing sazen mind, communing with serene illumination. And one side, again, is see and hear. And don't get caught in the objects of that. The other side, though, is just the objects. Let go of yourself. So there's in the Fourfold Dharmadatta, or it's actually in Rinzai's Four Guests and Hosts too, there's this interpenetration of subjective and object. I was talking last night about this way in which we separate subject and object in the world. This is a way of healing that. Not according to modern psychology, but it's about paying attention to how we are seeing and how we are hearing, or just to colors and forms, just two sounds. So, you know, we have this phrase in Zen, wall gazing.

[42:10]

And some people think that's looking, facing the wall. But actually it's being like a wall, facing suchness. So one way to describe the practice is that we sit like a wall. Or if you think about the precious mirror samadhi, form and reflection behold each other. You are not it, but it actually is you. This is about the same thing. How do we reflect the mirror on the wall? We look at the wall, we look at the floor. We are always facing ourselves. We are always facing suchness. But also, how does it see us? How does the wall or the floor see you? This interaction of subjective and objective, this is a way of taking that apart and really seeing the process of how we are sitting here wholeheartedly displaying Buddha Mudra with our whole body and mind.

[43:13]

And I also can relate it to, so you all know Genjo Koan, which is sort of my text for the year. One of my favorite lines, one of I think the most helpful lines is, to carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. So that's kind of like. just see and hear transcending colors and sounds. We carry ourself forward and experience myriad things. That's the side of delusion. We shouldn't try and get rid of that. Then Dogen says, as myriad things arise and experience themselves, that's awakening. That's just colors and sounds getting over, going beyond our seeing and watching. So there's this kind of This goes back to you are not it, but it actually is you. There's this way in which we, in ours, us, and experience.

[44:19]

Again, this is really subtle. And I don't feel like I can describe this very clearly. Words miss it. But there's something about our process, the activity, the vital process of of the active path of going beyond Buddha, Dogen says elsewhere, that when we clearly observe our own process of seeing and hearing or of colors and sounds, we can start to see how this separation comes about. And again, it's not that you should try to, I would recommend as a Zazen practice not trying to take one side or the other. you may find yourself on either side of either seeing and hearing or just colors and sounds, or you can try going back and forth between both sides. But to actually get inside this, this is like our breathing or our heartbeat, it's something that's going on continually all the time, and yet to actually get inside it and see this turning.

[45:33]

Hongzhe says elsewhere in his commentary on the story about Dongshan, the jade machine pivots see relative and absolute come up together. This jade mirror, this jewel mirror is turning and we're looking at the floor or the wall and it's looking back at us and is it subject or object? And to really get into both sides of it. So questions. Yes. Uh huh. Good. It's not that they're the same. They're interrelated. In a sense, the fifth rank is that they're the same. But we have to get into all five aspects of this relationship.

[46:36]

We all ready, all are with suchness. So one side is perceiver or giver. I think putting it in terms of giver and gift is interesting. One side is giver, the other side is gift. So sounds and shapes and colors are kind of the gift that suchness gives us. Our perceiving of it is giving that to ourselves maybe. I mean, I think that's another way to play with this. I like that. But it's not that we should take one side and it's not that we should figure it out. So we're talking about experience and Kensho. I want to actually do this exercise as an experience of seeing this deeper aspect of you are not it, it actually is you, of seeing this perception in the way that Hongzhe recommends to us. Yes? So our practice is not to get rid of the ego, not to get rid of the particular. So the non-self, Buddhas Anatman, is not about, again, it's not about, dropping body and mind doesn't mean self-mutilation and lobotomy.

[47:45]

Well, there's still the particular. So, there's a way in which what you say is on the right track and you've been asking good questions and my feeling is always to keep saying, oh yeah, please keep asking that question. There's not an answer to that, but it's not that there's some before and after. This is a vital active process of being on the path. And from the very first time you sit Zazen, you are it. Or you're not it, but it actually is you. But this experience of looking into seeing and hearing and colors and sounds and taking one side then taking the other. Again, I don't want to direct you too much in terms of this exercise we're going to do in terms of that you should take one side or the other. You can just be with it and see which side you end up.

[48:52]

and ends up coming up, or you could try going back and forth. See and hear and transcend the objects, but then just get into the objects and transcend your own perception, perceiving of it.

[49:08]

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