Good evening. Good evening. Welcome everyone. Tonight I'm going to talk again about the Lotus Sutra and the central story in the Lotus Sutra I'm going to talk about tonight, about underground bodhisattvas springing out of the earth. the inconceivably long lifespan of the Buddha. So this is kind of weird, fantastic, far out aspect of Buddhism. And I've been talking about some of these stories from the Lotus Sutra in preparation for next week. Next Monday evening, Gene Reeves, a fine scholar and practitioner of the Lotus Sutra, who usually lives in Tokyo, but is in Chicago now, who is going to be talking. His new translation of the Lotus Sutra is a wonderful, wonderful translation.

[01:02]

So we'll be fortunate to have him here next Monday evening, talking about some aspect of the Lotus Sutra. And the Sutra is the most important, most popular, historically Buddhist scripture in East Asia and China and even more in Japan. Of course, when we talk about sutras in the context of Zen, we want to get to what the point is of this in terms of our own practice, so I hope to do that. And as we see from the chant we did tonight, which is actually about the story that I want to talk about tonight, the Lotus Sutra is part of Soto Zen school liturgy and was very much cited by the Soto Zen founder, who I talk about a lot, Dogen, and his

[02:18]

Actually, my last book is about his commentary on these particular stories. So it's going to be interesting tonight to just talk a little bit about all this. Again, the Lotus Sutra is filled with parables and stories that are kind of fantastic and appeal to the imagination and are different from the side of Zen that's very rational and empirical and practical and down to earth. Now, in some ways, this first part of the story is kind of down to earth and down to what's under the earth, but how do we use this material? So, this story is the pivot of the sutra, the kind of climax of the sutra, the focus of the sutra in terms of the two different main aspects of this Lotus Sutra scripture. And what happens is that in the first half of the sutra, up till this point in the story, amongst other things that have been happening, the Buddha, who's speaking this Lotus Sutra at Vulture Peak, it's one of the very last teachings he's supposed to have given according to the Bodhisattva tradition, the Mahayana Buddhist tradition of North Asia, China, Japan, Tibet, and so forth.

[03:42]

the Buddha has been asking, who will come and keep alive these Lotus Sutra teachings in the future distant evil age? And we might well identify ourselves with that future distant evil age, and Lotus Sutra followers have done so for a thousand years, at any rate, how will this sutra be kept alive? How will the teachings of Buddha be kept alive? This is the kind of question that recurs in the first half of the sutra and brings us to the opening of this story in chapter 15. So I'm going to read a little bit from Gene's translation and talk about it as well. And part of what's happened is that, and I talked about last week, Buddha from the distant past showed up in his stupa and is floating in midair in front of Vulture Peak.

[04:46]

And there are many Buddhas and Bodhisattvas from all over who have shown up. Anyway, the real question is, what is Buddha? The question that is underlying all of this, these kinds of stories, is, well, what is Buddha? What is it that is our own awakened hearts? What is Buddha as the great being who is our founder and leader and so forth? But also, what is it that is, and in Zen we emphasize, what is, why did Bodhidharma come from the West? What's the point of our lives? What's the point of our trying to engage spiritual practice? What are we doing here? This is the background question and all these Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have come to hear the Buddha Shakyamuni talk about this. So it says that at that time the Bodhisattvas, the great ones who had come from other lands and were more numerous than the sands of eight Ganges rivers, arose in the Great Assembly and with palms together greeted and spoke to the Buddha saying, World Honored One, if the Buddha will allow us diligently and devotedly to protect and embrace this sutra, read and recite it, copy it, and make offerings to it in this world after your extinction, we would teach it everywhere throughout this land.

[06:01]

So this group of bodhisattvas who've come from some distant galaxy are saying, okay, we will take up this challenge. keep alive this practice, keep alive this teaching. But then the Buddha said to the whole group of Bodhisattva Great Ones, enough, my good children, there is no need for you to protect and embrace this sutra. Why? Because in my world itself, there are as many Bodhisattva Great Ones as there are sands in 60,000 Ganges rivers. And each one of these Bodhisattvas has as many followers as there are sands. Grains of sand, sometimes it's translated, in 60,000 Ganges rivers. After my extinction, they will be able to protect and embrace, read and recite and teach this sutra everywhere. And I talked last week about this mysterious aspect of this sutra talking about itself right in the middle of the text that is this sutra. So when the Buddha had said this, it continues, the earth of this 3,000 great thousandfold world trembled and split open.

[07:08]

And from it innumerable tens of millions of billions of Bodhisattva Great Ones sprang up together. Previously, they had all been living in the world of empty space below this world. And when these Bodhisattvas heard the sound of the voice of Shakyamuni Buddha preaching, they appeared from below. This is one of these main images of the sutra. Millions, countless millions of bodhisattvas springing out from this open space under the ground. And just a little bit more, skipping ahead a little bit, the beginning of this chapter. When these bodhisattvas had emerged from the earth, each went up in the air to the wonderful stupa of the seven precious materials where the Buddha abundant treasures and Shakyamuni Buddha were. We talked about that. Last time, this ancient Buddha and Shakyamuni are sharing their seats. When they reached it, these underground Bodhisattvas, they bowed and prostrated themselves to both World Honored Ones. While these Bodhisattva Great Ones who had sprung up from the earth praised the Buddhas with all kinds of Bodhisattva praises, 50 small eons went by.

[08:20]

So this is a kind of wild, cosmic, fantastic world where there are millions of bodhisattvas and eons go by. It's a mysterious scene here. Among all these bodhisattvas were the four leaders, the first name superior practice, second unlimited practice, the third pure practice, and the fourth firm practice. Skipping ahead a little more, because all these beings, for generation after generation, this is the Buddha speaking to the assembly of bodhisattvas, he says, let me go back a little bit, they ask after his health, and the Buddha says in response to these underground bodhisattvas, the living beings here are easy to transform and save, and they do not make me tired. Why? Because all these beings, for generation after generation, have been transformed by me, and they have made offerings to previous Buddhas and honored them, planting good roots.

[09:25]

When all these beings saw me for the first time," and here he's talking about these Bodhisattvas, and heard my preaching, they received it in faith and entered the wisdom of a Buddha. Okay, so what's going on here? This strange, fantastic scene. These Bodhisattvas who've been living under in the open space under our Earth, living under the ground for countless ages, practicing diligently. Well, there's one other place that he talks about how they practice. It's kind of sweet. He says that... They find no pleasure in talking among the crowd, but enjoy being in quiet places, diligently and persistently practicing without rest. They do not rely only on human or heavenly beings, but always delight in profound wisdom, being free from obstacles.

[10:34]

They always delight in the Dharma of Buddhas, with complete devotion, persistently seeking unexcelled wisdom." So these are really phenomenal beings, and what's the story about? What does it have to do with us? Well, one thing it's saying, it's claiming here in this scripture, is that Right now, still, because these bodhisattvas vow to continue and share this teaching and be available to suffering beings, even in future evil times, that there is this quality of bodhisattvas right now, under our seats. awaiting to emerge. This possibility of awakening is present. This possibility of helpful awareness, of bodhisattva kindness, is present in our world, under the earth, under the ground, under our seats, under our footsteps as we walk.

[11:42]

There are stories like this in world mythology. There are Native American stories like this, too, about Native spiritual beings staying under the earth and emerging to bring informed spirit into the world. So there's a way in which this image, we may take it as just some fantasy science fiction image, but the teaching behind it is about some possibility that it's not just something that happened 2,500 years ago or whatever in India. The story is saying that it's not just something that's happening then, that it happens whenever the Lotus Sutra is expounded, it happens whenever beings ask for spiritual guidance. So one of the issues is how we see this as a kind of reality in our life.

[12:47]

We have, each of us, difficulties, problems, challenges in our life, in our work, in our relationships, in our family. How is this resource of underground bodhisattvas available to us? This is one question this sutra poses to us, I would say. And, you know, partly our practice maybe is a matter of faith. Do we trust that this however we want to understand it, this bodhisattva energy, this possibility of awareness and of kindness, is available, is fundamental, is underlies, understands our lives, our world, even in the difficulties of our world and our society with all of its cruelty and corruption and unkindness

[13:54]

well, there's this possibility of this resource of underground bodhisattvas. So this is the first half of the story, the first part of the story. When all of these bodhisattvas appear, and these are strange ancient bodhisattvas, the regular bodhisattvas and disciples who usually listen to the Buddha are kind of perplexed. Who are these guys? Who are these people? Where do they come from? And the Bodhisattva Maitreya, who is promised to be the next future Buddha, and we chant the Metta Sutta sometimes, this scripture of loving kindness, which his name is based on, Metta or Maitreya. He wonders what is going on, and on behalf of all the other disciples, he asks the Buddha, where did these people come from? Where have these Bodhisattvas been? What's going on here? And then, if such could be possible, the story takes an even more mind-bending turn.

[15:06]

And actually, we chanted the final verse about this story tonight, but in the opening of that chapter about this revelation, the Buddha He was reluctant to answer at first. He says, well, you wouldn't believe me. And Maitreya asks three times. He says, please tell us, we'll believe you. And so the Buddha says, the world honored one, knowing that the Bodhisattva's request, now repeated three times, would not be stopped, said to them, you should all listen carefully to hear about the Tathagata's secret and divine powers. In all the worlds, the humans, heavenly beings, and asuras think that the present Shakyamuni Buddha left the palace of the Shakya clan, sat at the place of the way, under the Bodhi tree, not far from the city of Bodhgaya, and attained supreme awakening. But, my good children, in fact, there have been innumerable, unlimited, hundreds of thousands of billions of myriads of eons since I became a Buddha.

[16:18]

So this is kind of even wilder. Skipping ahead a little bit, he says, all the sutras preached by the Tathagata, the Buddha, the Vesakamon, are for the purpose of saving all the living beings. Sometimes I speak of myself, sometimes of others. Sometimes I appear as myself, sometimes as someone else. Sometimes I appear in my own actions, sometimes in the actions of others. But all that I say is true and not empty. He also says, I have constantly been in the world, preaching, teaching, and transforming. And in other places, in hundreds of thousands of billions of various countless other lands, I have led and enriched living beings. So after this story about these underground bodhisattvas, the Buddha says, also, I've been here for a long time. And then at some point, he says, I will continue to be here twice that long. So it's not exactly that he is eternal. But from our point of view, it might as well be so.

[17:23]

He says, as in the chant that we did earlier in our service, that he practices skillful means. For some beings, for some of us, maybe it's helpful to hear that the Buddha has passed away. Now it's up to us. For some beings, maybe some of you, it might be helpful to hear that the Buddha has been around a very, very long time doing awakening practice and will continue to be present. So what does this mean? Again, what is the point of this to us? There's also the aspect of the Buddha that he was just a human being. He was not a god. So this is one of the main problems or differences in terms of talking about this Buddha teaching in our Western context where we have this idea of God as this great all-powerful being creating all of this and so forth.

[18:30]

That's not what Buddha is claiming here. Part of the issue is that when we say Buddha, we're referring to this this guy who lived historically in Northern India 2,400 or so years ago. But we also refer to this quality which we all have gotten a taste of. You wouldn't be here otherwise. In our sitting, we get a glimpse of this instinct towards awakening, this insight of the Buddha. what does it mean that the Buddha is present in the world to help? How, what is the use of hearing this story? Well, I'll just, to give a partial answer, I'll talk a little bit about how Dogen saw this story. Because he used this, he referred to this story quite a lot, and used it as a kind of encouragement, and in some way,

[19:38]

The point of hearing all of these sutras, all of these Buddhist teachings, is just to encourage you to keep paying attention, to keep returning to your cushion, facing the wall, facing yourself, being upright, being present, breathing, seeing what it's like, trying to find some balance with which to respond to the suffering and joy of this world. How do we do that? That's what I would say the story is about. And it's about encouraging ourselves to do that. That Buddha is present. Well, where is Buddha when he's present? If Buddha is still present in the world, where is he? Why isn't he, you know? coming and stopping the wars and stopping the violence and stopping all the cruelty and corruption and, you know, providing health care for us and all of the things that obviously are lacking in this world.

[20:41]

Well, this is a challenge. And, of course, the Lotus Sutra is this fantastic, and a lot of, and most of the Mahayana Sutras are these fantastics, you know, as this fantastic scripture with all these amazing stories that's intended to pull the plugs out of our mind, to see in a different way, to unsettle us, to look at things a little differently, to see other possibilities. So it's pretty hard with the Mahayana sutras to take a fundamentalist, literalist, it says such and such in the sutra, you have to believe this literally if you want to be a Buddhist or whatever. These are stories that incite our capacity to imagine the different aspects of what Buddha is in our world, in our lives. Otherwise, there's no point in this. So just some examples of how Dogen does that himself, the Soto Zen founder, also a long time ago, not quite as long back as Shakyamuni, but in the 13th century.

[21:53]

In one of his stories, he talks about, this is one of Dogen's essays about the Buddha's whole body. He ends saying, the long eons of difficult and painful practices are the activity of the womb of the Buddha, that bring forth the Buddha. When it is said that these practices have not ceased even for a second, it means that even though he is perfectly enlightened, he still practices vigorously. He continues forever, even though he converts the whole universe. This activity is the whole body of the Tathagata. So, Dogen is saying here, this living body of the Buddha is alive in Buddha practice, in the practice of awareness, in our practice. He also is referring to the fact, historically, that the Buddha, upon his awakening, didn't say, OK, now everything's fine. I can go home. He continued to teach and express his teaching.

[22:58]

And he continued to meditate every day. And he continued to awaken. He awakened every day. Awakening is not something that happens once. You can't go to the store and get a six-pack of enlightenment, and then you're done. It's this ongoing thing. What does it mean that the Buddha's life is ongoing? What does that mean about our practice? Another example from Dogen. And this happens after he quotes the Buddha's statement at the very end of chapter 16, which we just chanted. I have always given thought to how I could cause all creatures to enter the highest supreme way and quickly become Buddhas. So I'll read Gene Lee's translation of that. Again, that's what we just chanted in our service. At the very end of that, another translation said, Gene's translation says, I am always thinking, how can I lead all the living to enter the unexcelled way and quickly perfect their Buddha bodies?

[24:07]

Maybe I'll read the version that we chant, which is from a different translation. Because it's a wonderful statement about what Buddha is about. Just this little section in our chant book. It says, ever making this my thought, how can I cause living beings to gain entry into the unsurpassed way and promptly embody Buddha? So, Dogen, in one of his other essays, quotes this. This is in his writing, Awakening to the Bodhi Mind, on Subodai Shin. He quotes it and Dogen says, this statement itself is the Tathagata's lifetime. Buddha's establishment of the mind, his training, and experience of the effect of the fruitive practice are all like this. For Dogen, the inconceivable lifespan is exactly this intention, to help all beings awaken.

[25:11]

which mysteriously creates the ongoing life of the Buddha. So this thought, this, you know, how can we help beings to enter into this awareness, this path of awakening, and express that in their bodies, in their activities, in their life. Another example of how Dogen uses this story as a kind of encouragement to us, at that time to his students, but now I'm, you know, I'm wanting to encourage you all, please continue paying attention to your life, facing yourself, helping others as you can, you know, in this difficult world to also face themselves and be present and enter into this body of Buddha.

[26:12]

In another essay in Dogen Shoboganza called Meeting Buddha, he says, when beings with unified or undivided mind desire to meet Buddha without attachment to their own body and life, at that time the Buddha appears with the assembly at Vulture Peak and expounds the Lotus Sutra. And Dogen says, when each present individual secretly arouses the desire to meet Buddha, we are desiring to meet Buddha through concentration of the vulture peak mind. So this undivided mind is vulture peak itself. How could the undivided body not appear together with the mind? is a way that Dobin expresses what Buddha's life, this long presence, inconceivably long presence, what it's about, this undivided mind.

[27:21]

I don't think this means that we only have one thought at a time, necessarily. In fact, the teaching that came out of the Lotus Sutra in China and then developed in Japan, the Tendai school that Dogen was first ordained in, they said that in every moment of thought, there are 3,000 worlds. So what does it mean to have undivided mind in the midst of 3,000 worlds, in the midst of all these Buddhas and Bodhisattvas that, well, sometimes we don't believe it, but anyway, the Buddhist scriptures say this is what our world is. along with, of course, the suffering and the difficulties. What does it mean to have undivided mind? What does it mean to have undivided heart? This is another way of saying it. To give our whole heart to our life, to our activity, to our awareness.

[28:25]

This has to mean, even when we're distracted, even when we feel a little confused, even when we're feeling frustrated or angry or, you know, human thoughts. This has to be something human beings can do. How do we find, in the midst of this human life, undivided heart? How can we breathe into our heart and mind and just be present? This is what Dogen is encouraging us to do based on Buddha's encouragement that he's been around a lot. Or again, this idea of skillful means. Buddha is not one thing. Buddha is not divided either. Buddha is undivided mind, Dogen says. And that includes that Buddha is just an ordinary human being. Buddha was a prince. Buddha has been around a long time. How do we see this for ourselves?

[29:28]

What is it that encourages you to see undivided heart on your question, to trust that. And then how do we sit with it and sustain it and develop it and allow this lotus wisdom to unfold? The last image from Dogen I'll share about, in his references to the story, goes back to these Bodhisattva's bringing out of the earth. There's an essay Dogen wrote about the sounds of the valley streams and the colors of the mountain, which he says, actually he's quoting an old Chinese poet, who said that the sounds of the valley streams are the Buddha's tongue. The colors and shapes of the mountains are the Buddha's body. So Dogen, talks about this, and he talks about searching for insight and guidance, and how beginner practitioners do that, and they seek to tread the path of the ancient saints.

[30:39]

At this time, in visiting teachers and seeking the truth, there are mountains to climb and oceans to cross, or maybe there are miles and miles of prairie to cross, or But anyway, while we are seeking a guiding teacher or hoping to find a good spiritual friend, one comes down from the heaven or springs up from the earth. So he's saying here that in our own seeking, we meet these bodhisattvas coming out of the earth. And maybe we are informed by these bodhisattvas coming out of the earth. Even beginning practitioners, he says specifically, of seeking the truth. And the activity of going out, going around and talking with different teachers also are expressions of these underground bodhisattvas. So, there's a fantastic quality to all of these images.

[31:45]

And if it doesn't appeal to you, it's okay to just forget it. And yet, there's a way in which, just by hearing this, we can feel stretched a little bit, and I believe supported. How do we recreate awakening activity in our mind? How do we allow our heart to be undivided, but okay, in the midst of all of the complexities of our human world and this karmic life? Here I am. And even looking at the history of the world and the difficulties of our society and other societies, there are times when it looks like bodhisattvas spring out of the earth somehow.

[32:51]

People show up and help when things are needed. We may feel discouraged that that is possible in times of craziness when demons seem to spring out of the earth scream silly things and stop people from talking to each other and so forth. But there is also this possibility of maybe us being like these Bodhisattvas, or us receiving the benefit of these Bodhisattvas anyway. This is, in this way, I think, when we can just listen to a very comforting story, an encouraging story. And it's also okay to receive the benefit of these Bodhisattvas and of the Buddha around us, as well as to look out for our own undivided heart.

[33:57]

So I want to give time for any responses, comments, or questions that any of you have. so so One of our practices is called sasheen, which means to gather the mind.

[35:01]

So some people did that here yesterday morning. And also, we do some version of that every month here. But also, just in sitting together, quietly, like this, There is gathering mind. There is not dividing the mind. I guess I wonder, even though there might be times when we can only be aware of way in which you might think the mind could be divided, the heart could be divided. Well, I can't if nobody else can. I can imagine sitting here yesterday morning and thinking of, you know, being somewhere else or wishing I was somewhere else.

[36:09]

I can imagine actually fooling myself into thinking that I had a divided mind. I've done that at times, I confess. Sometimes, especially when we're facing the problems, the genja koans of our life, we can feel our heart divided. We want to do this, and we want to do that, and we can't see how to see the wholeness of it. So maybe none of you have those kinds of experiences ever, but for me, I sometimes can imagine my heart divided, my mind divided. Maybe what Dogen is saying is just that, is exactly what you just did. How could the mind be divided? Really? Think about that. Amidst all our confusion, how could the mind really be divided? I don't know, you're a psychologist, maybe you can explain this to me. Well, I don't know much more about that than what I've seen on TV shows.

[37:24]

It's TV stories. But they say that sometimes that there is still some kind of communication. Well, that's the difference between mind and brain. OK. Yes? I guess about eight or nine years ago, I read a novel that was set And there is a passage that is very fantastical, or like the one you were describing. So it's where there is echoing of a Hindu twist to it, where all these gods and deities and innumerable were spreading out. It was in the mind of a man who was dying. And so when you read that, those passages, those scriptures, I got it, but it's funny because I'm thinking that this imagery is something that this author may have conjured, say, in the year 2000 or 1999, when in fact it's possibly centuries old, and he may have borrowed it from the Lotus Sutra.

[38:43]

So that was very, it was like a literary echo. Yes, when you read that. It's also, yes, yes, and I think it's foreign to us, but it's very much Indian. This was originally an Indian, you know, we read a translation from the Chinese translation that spread throughout East Asia, but especially those There are passages in there that I go on and on that I didn't read about how extensive and how immeasurable the time period of the Buddha's life was, or is, or will be, or whatever. And the Indian imagination seems to And I don't know if it's that he was borrowing from this particular text or some other text like it. It's just that the Indian imagination seems to like this kind of mathematical grandiose vastness.

[39:44]

This sense of the infinite or the near infinite is part of Indian, you know, it's like all the rich curries and the Indian dancing. There's this kind of richness to that imagination. And so there is that cultural part of it. And I think that's interesting for us. It's not how we're, you know, and the Chinese, too, thought very kind of, in a certain way, logically and historically and, you know, in a kind of reasonable way. And this just blows that away. So maybe Buddhism didn't survive in India for a long time because they were used to that kind of vision. But for the Chinese people and for us, it's illuminating. I don't know. Anyway, yeah, there's that cultural side of it and that vastness side of it. reading it this year, kind of slowly.

[40:53]

And it strikes me that in a post kind of psychedelic culture that we have, and also with the sort of mind expanding media that we're continually surrounded with, I think it maybe makes the Lotus Sutra more or less foreign than maybe it might have seemed. But at the same time, in the context as a religious document, it's just very peculiar. I'm just really curious. I don't think we'll maybe see in our lifetime even what its real assimilation into our culture, but it would be really interesting to come back in a couple hundred years and see what the Lotus Sutra do because to me it's encountering it in the context of Zen is weird enough and your book has really been helpful.

[41:58]

I've really been enjoying that and then and as an artist and trying to pull this in, even hearing tonight, it's like, really, I can see how it's manifesting in my work, I think, in some way, how I'm trying to digest it. So, as more people are doing that same thing and trying to digest this really weird, weird book, and it, because it's like nothing, no other religious document in our culture, in our tradition, even close, it's just, and it doesn't, Most people would look at it, and of course it's been rejected by all the early Buddhists, American Buddhists, who didn't want to, it was too messy, they didn't want to deal with it. It's kind of messy. Yeah. So I'm just fascinated by it, and thank you for your talk. Yeah, well, I think that's an interesting speculation about how this kind of wild, I don't know, post-psychedelic, post-internet kind of visionary kind of text will assimilate into America.

[43:03]

So are there any Bodhisattvas around who can come back in a couple hundred years or so, that future age, and check out how the Lotus Sutra is, you know, progressing? Anyone? Well, we will have, yes, And for me that in the sands and it helps me kind of grasp the idea of through space and time. Yeah. Like it helps me kind of grasp that idea. Like grass, you know, I just didn't know. Yeah. Yeah. There's something that's vital and organic. Yes, like grass, you know, growing out of concrete even. There's something about this idea of the bodhisattva, of the open, caring heart that is organic and vital and is always under the concrete, under the floorboards, under our cushions.

[44:09]

Nancy? I think also to echo that, there are times in my own life when I can feel very dry and feel like nothing happens if I don't make it happen. Even my ice maker doesn't work if I don't If I don't make ice, there's no ice. And the idea that something could come from somewhere else, anywhere else, it doesn't have to come from the ground, it could come from just helpful friends. Yes. But there's always that possibility of something that I didn't create in that sterile little universe, and that's what I liked about that mission. Yeah, it's under the ground and it's in us. And it's not that we created it, it springs forth. It's this, you know, like the grass growing, very good. Good, questions? It'll be in keeping with the weirdness of the Lotus Sutra, but are you aware of the kind of New Age belief that there are like a race of lizard people that live under the earth and specifically in Nevada that will come out of Area 51?

[45:18]

Some people think they're nefarious. Some people think that they're... This is a Burning Man thing? No, it's just, it's been around. It's a kind of conspiracy theory internet. There's lots of those things. To me, it's so archetypal. It's the Naga kings. Some people think they're very good and they'll come and enlighten us. Wasn't there a show on the X-Files about that? Very much so, yeah. All of that kind of stuff that is wild. We don't have to take so literally. and who knows, and we can be open and agnostic about any particular version of any of this, but the point again is how do we open our hearts? How do we find this undivided heart-mind? And help others to find this way of expressing Buddha physically, practically.

[46:13]

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