Good evening. I'm talking this month about the Lotus Sutra in two weeks, two weeks from
tonight. Gene Reeves is going to be here as a guest speaker. His new translation of the
Lotus Sutra is quite wonderful and he's a pretty well-known scholar, lives in Japan
now most of the time, used to teach at UC Divinity School. Anyway, he'll be here to
talk in two weeks about the Lotus Sutra and I'm talking, giving some background talks
about the Lotus Sutra starting yesterday and continuing tonight. The Lotus Sutra is arguably
the most important Buddhist scripture in East Asia, in China, and even more so in Japan.
It's usually associated in Japan with the Nichiren school, which chants the name of
the Lotus Sutra, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, or homage to the Lotus Sutra. But it was also the main,
the foremost scripture of the Tendai school, out of which came not just Nichiren, but Pure
Land and Zen, and Dogen, founder of the Seto Zen tradition we follow here. Also Hakuin,
who was the creator of the modern Rinzai Zen practice, both highly esteem the Lotus Sutra.
The Lotus Sutra is kind of a funny text in a lot of ways. I want to talk about one particular
story from it tonight. But the chant we just did about the inconceivable lifespan of the Buddha,
I'm going to talk about more next Monday night. You can see from that chant that this is a text
that appeals to the imagination that is not in tune with our usual Western literal way of thinking.
And in some ways, you know, we think of Zen as kind of down-to-earth, just sit and face the wall,
face yourself, very matter-of-fact, study the self, see how it is to be present in this body
and mind, very kind of practical, empirical teaching in a way, and practice. And that's
true. That is an important side of our practice. The Lotus Sutra challenges us though to bring
our imagination to our practice and to our life. And the Lotus Sutra is particularly challenging
in terms of presenting a view of what Buddha is, what awakening is, that doesn't fit with
our usual way of thinking. Maybe even more so now in modern times than it was challenging
in medieval times for Dogen. And yet in other ways, it actually fits very well with modern
physics and modern environmental thought. Anyway, one of these main stories in the sutra
that I want to talk about tonight has to do with a Buddha that shows up in the Lotus Sutra
from a very distant place and time. So the Lotus Sutra is supposedly one of the last
teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha on Vulture Peak in northern India. And it's in Chapter 11.
And he's been, well, there are many, I mentioned yesterday some of the many parables that are
in the Lotus Sutra. There are many stories and they're challenging stories to us. But this one
particularly, as the Buddha was teaching, another Buddha appears. So I'll read a little bit from
G. Rave's translation. At that time, a stupa of the seven precious materials, 500 leagues high
and 250 leagues wide and deep, sprang up from the earth in front of the Buddha and stood in midair.
It was decorated with all kinds of valuable things. And it goes on to describe some of those
in the ways that the Mahayana sutras do. But first of all, a little bit about what the idea of a stupa is.
A stupa is a place where relics of a Buddha are placed. And there's some question about this now,
but at least until recently, there was some idea that Mahayana Buddhism, the Bodhisattva Way,
started around stupas where many lay people came as pilgrims. So one of the main practices in all
of Asian Buddhism actually is to go to sacred places, to go visit great sites of natural beauty,
to go visit mountains that have spiritual power, to go to the places where there are great historical
temples or where the founding teachers of branches of Buddhism taught. And often at these places,
there is a stupa. And when Cos was here a few months ago, he talked about King Ashoka, the
great Indian king who sent relics of the historical Buddha Shakyamuni throughout Asia. And so there's
some of those in California now. I have a chance to see some of them. Who knows if they're actually
bones from the historical Buddha from 2,500 years ago. One of the temples I lived next to in Kyoto
for a couple of years had a stupa, actually in the form of a pagoda. So many of you have seen
pictures of pagodas. That's the East Asian version of the stupa. But this was a stupa or pagoda for
Manjushri, the Bodhisattva of Wisdom, who is sitting in front of Shakyamuni on our altar. And of course,
he's not a historical person. So this idea of a place where something of the Buddha is present
as a place to pilgrimage to is very important in Asian Buddhism.
So in this part of the sutra, a stupa, a very large, beautiful precious stupa springs up from
the earth in front of Shakyamuni Buddha and stands in midair. Then, skipping a little bit, from the
midst of this treasure stupa came a loud voice of praise, saying,
Well done, well done, World Honored Shakyamuni. For the sake of the Great Assembly, you are able to teach
the wondrous Dharma Flower Sutra of Great Impartial Wisdom, the Dharma by which Bodhisattvas are taught
and which Buddhists protect and keep in mind. It is just as you say, World Honored Shakyamuni.
All that you say is true.
So one of the Bodhisattvas hanging out in this assembly, listening to the Buddha teach the Lotus Sutra,
asks, Where did this great, wonderful treasure stupa come from? Why did it spring out of the
earth? And what is this voice? So the Buddha says, In this treasure stupa, there is the whole body
of a Tathagata, of a Buddha. Once in the past, innumerable, tens of millions of billions of
countless worlds to the east, in a land named Treasure Purity, there was a Buddha named Abundant
Treasures. When that Buddha was originally practicing the Bodhisattva way, he made a great vow,
saying, After I become a Buddha and then pass away into extinction, if there is a place in any land
in the universe where the Dharma Flower Sutra, the Lotus Sutra, is taught, in order that I may
listen to it, my stupa will appear there, bearing testimony to the sutra and praising it, saying,
Well done. And then the Buddha goes on to say that this came to pass, that this Buddha named
Abundant Treasures became a Buddha and passed away. And now, whenever the Lotus Sutra is preached,
he goes to, he shows up in his stupa to hear it and to praise the Buddha for preaching it.
This is told right in this text called the Lotus Sutra. So there's something very, very funny going
on here. And I think it has something to do with something deep about our practice.
So I'll come to that, but I want to continue the story a little.
This Bodhisattva, who was in attendance on Shakyamuni Buddha, says,
World Honored One, we want to see this Buddha's body. So this stupa is floating in midair, and
Shakyamuni tells them that this is the stupa, the relics of the Buddha, Abundant Treasures, from
the ancient past. So one of the points about the story is just that in this Mahayana world,
in the world of a Bodhisattva, there are many Buddhas. There are Buddhas in all directions,
in different world systems, different galaxies. And there are Buddhas in the past, there will be
Buddhas in the future. So prior to the story in this Lotus Sutra, the Buddha has been telling
some of his disciples, Jim, in the future, in such and such a world, in the distant, distant future,
you will be the Buddha so-and-so, and so forth. So this idea of Buddhas in many places,
this idea of Buddhas in many worlds, throughout space and time, as we chant.
So the Buddha responded to the Bodhisattva saying, who had said that we want to see this
body, Shakyamuni Buddha said, this Buddha, Abundant Treasures, has taken a profound vow,
saying, when my treasure stupa appears in the presence of one of the Buddhas, so that I can hear
the Dharma Flower Sutra, if someone wants me to show my body to the four groups, this is monks
and nuns and laymen and laywomen, let the Buddhas who are embodiments of that Buddha and are
preaching the Dharma in the worlds of the ten directions return together and assemble in one
place, then my body will appear. So okay, here we have another aspect of Buddha, that according to
this idea in this Lotus Sutra, the Buddha who is preaching the Lotus Sutra, in this case,
Shakyamuni Buddha, has various Buddhas who are embodiments of that Buddha,
embodiment bodies, emanation bodies, who are in many worlds,
sharing the Dharma, helping beings to enter into the path of awakening.
And so this Bodhisattva says to the Buddha, World Honored One, we would also like to see
the Buddhas who embody you and worship and make offerings to them. And part of how these Mahayana
sutras work is there's all of this flowery imagery, and I'm just skipping some of that to
give you the kind of basic story. But here, the Buddha then emitted a beam of light from his tuft
of white hair, which is part of what a Buddha has, sometimes called the third eye, and emits
a beam of light, immediately making visible all the Buddhas in five million billion myriads of
lands to the east, as many as sands of the Ganges. All those lands have crystals for their ground and
were adorned with jeweled trees and jeweled robes, and it goes on to describe how wonderful they are.
Then each of the Buddhas in the ten directions, who were emanations, embodiments of Shakyamuni Buddha,
spoke to their multitudes of Bodhisattvas saying, good sons and daughters, now we have to go to
Shakyamuni Buddha's world and make offerings to the treasure trove of the great Tathagata Abundant Treasure.
So there's a long section there which describes all these Buddhas and Bodhisattvas showing up to
make offerings to Abundant Treasure Buddha. Skipping ahead, then Shakyamuni Buddha, seeing
the Buddhas who embodied him, assembled together, each seated on a lion throne, and hearing that
those Buddhas all wanted the treasure store to be opened, immediately got up from his seat and went
up into the air. You know, sometimes maybe this sort of happens in the Zen, somebody kind of lifts up
off their seat a little bit. But anyway, all four groups stood up, put their palms together and gazed
at the Buddha in rapt attention. Wouldn't you? Then Shakyamuni Buddha opened the door of the stupa
of the seven precious materials with the fingers of his right hand. From this stupa there came a
great sound, like the withdrawing of the bar when the gate to a great city is opened. Suddenly the
whole congregation saw the Buddha, Abundant Treasures, on a lion's seat in the treasure stupa
with his whole body in one piece, sitting as though he were in meditation. And they heard him say,
Well done. Well done, Shakyamuni Buddha. You have preached this Dharma Flower Sutra gladly,
which is what I have come to this place to hear. And it goes on that all of the assembly
made offerings and were very excited about this, of course, as you can imagine.
And then Abundant Treasures Buddha offered half a seat within the treasure stupa to Shakyamuni
Buddha, saying, Shakyamuni Buddha, take this seat. And then Shakyamuni Buddha entered the stupa,
took half the seat and sat with folded legs. Seeing the two Buddhas sitting with folded legs
on the lion's seat of the stupa of the seven precious materials, those in the great assembly
then thought, the Buddhas are sitting high and far away. It would be good if the Tathagatas
would use their divine powers to enable all of us to be up in the air. Immediately Shakyamuni
Buddha used his divine powers to bring all of the great assembly to where he was up in the air.
In a loud voice, he addressed all the four groups saying, who was able to teach the wonderful Dharma
Flower Sutra everywhere throughout this world? Now indeed is the time. Before long, the Buddha
Tathagata, Shakyamuni himself, will enter nirvana so that it will last forever. The Buddha wants to
entrust this wonderful Dharma Flower Sutra to someone. So that leads into another part of
the story. But OK, what's going on here? Well, one thing is that you have these two Buddhas sitting
next to each other, sharing their seat. Sometimes you see images of Buddhas where there are two
Buddhas sitting together. You may see that sometimes. That's about this sutra. That's
about the story of the Buddha and the Buddha Shakyamuni, our Buddha, and this ancient Buddha,
Abundant Treasures, who shows up whenever the Lotus Sutra is preached. It says so right in the
Lotus Sutra. There's many ways in which this story is very weird. But just the first part of it is
that here's two Buddhas sitting, sharing their seat. And this is sort of a model in our Zen
tradition for the teacher sharing his seat with the shuso, the head monk, in a practice period,
or in Dharma transmission. It's related to that too. This idea of Buddhas sharing their seat and
teaching together comes from this story in the Lotus Sutra. And the other part is that they're
floating in mid-air. And through most of the, till, I forget now if it's chapter 22 or somewhere in there,
but for most of the Lotus Sutra, the whole thing happens with everyone floating in mid-air.
So the rest of the sutra proceeds with the Buddha preaching from his seat next to Abundant
Treasures. At some point, he comes down from there and Abundant Treasures goes away.
So this is called the assembly in mid-air, and a large section of the sutra happens like that.
So again, this is not our usual way of thinking about the teaching or the practice or even the
Bodhisattva way. This is very challenging to our imagination. And yet, again, this sutra was the
most important in Japan, maybe less so later on for the Pure Land School, but Dogen treasured it
and refers to it often. Hakuin called it the king of all sutras in the Minzai tradition.
The other part of it, the part of it that I want to talk about most though, and we can
talk about these images of this other Buddha and the two Buddhas sitting together in the
assembly floating in mid-air. Well, I'll just say about that.
Shall I? Well, okay, I started to. There are times when I'm sitting here and just enjoying
the assembly, sitting in this wonderful still new zendo, and it feels like we're kind of,
you know, cushions floating. Of course, we have a floor, fortunately, for us to
kid him on. But anyway, there's a way in which our presumption that this floor is really here
is just that it's part of the conventional world that we rely on in our usual way of thinking.
Anyway, putting that aside, what does it mean that there is this Buddha who was awakened,
who was followed the Bodhisattva way and was awakened and became a Buddha
long, long ago in the distant past in a galaxy far, far away.
And he always shows up to hear the Lotus Sutra. And it says so right in the Lotus Sutra.
So this text is,
has this very strange self-referential or self-reflexive quality.
There are other sutras and other texts, spiritual texts, that talk about the text itself and say,
you know, the Perfection of Wisdom Sutras also say that it's good to remember this text and copy it
and share it with others. The Lotus Sutra goes, you know, does that in a way that's far beyond
all the other texts, though. Again, the Lotus Sutra is taught, a large part of the Lotus Sutra
is Buddha saying, well, who's going to keep alive this Lotus Sutra in the distant future, evil age?
Which, you know, many of us who love the Lotus Sutra identify with this, oh, this is the time.
Nichiren thought he was a reincarnation of one of those, of one of the Bodhisattvas I'll talk
about next week. But what is it, what is going on in this text that is sort of talking about itself
as, you know, that which needs to be kept alive?
And part of what needs to be kept alive is it's talking about itself.
To me, it's a little bit, maybe some of you know the picture by Escher where there's two hands
with pens and they're each drawing the other hand. It's a little bit like that.
This abundant treasures Buddha comes from a distant land in the future to hear this sutra,
which talks about him coming from a distant land in the future, to hear the Lotus Sutra whenever
it's preached, in which it talks about him coming to hear the Lotus Sutra whenever it's preached.
There's something very strange that goes on in the Lotus Sutra. Now, it's not some scholars
have said, well, there's no real teaching there, it's just a preamble to something that never
happens. Well, there's a teaching in this sutra, but it's not something that we can
so easily get a hold of. Of course, the image of the lotus itself is that out of the mud grows
this beautiful, wonderful lotus. And out of the mud of our karma, out of the difficulty of greed,
hate and delusion, out of the suffering of our lives and our troubled world,
this is where awakening blooms. This lotus is a very powerful image.
And then here's this ancient Buddha in a stupa, you know, he's sort of passed away and yet
he speaks. He says, good job, Shakyamuni, you're preaching the Lotus Sutra. And I always show up
whenever you do that. A lot of ways of thinking about that.
But I want to point to something that to me relates to what our Zazen practice is about.
So I talked yesterday about skillful means or modes or the ways in which
in some way, all of the different practices we might do, not just our formal sitting meditation,
but taking care of family and friends, taking care of our work situation, washing the dishes,
taking out the garbage. Everything we do
is a practice that can be a practice that's part of this
single purpose of the Buddha to help everyone enter into awakening.
And yet here,
there's a kind of way in which each thing that happens in and of itself is valuable.
Shakyamuni preaching the Lotus Sutra is valuable.
And this Buddha abundant treasure shows up to testify to that.
So this is from a very fine Buddhist scholar named William O'Fleury. He says,
the narratives of the Lotus Sutra are not a means to an end beyond themselves.
Their concrete mode of expression is not chaff to be dispensed with
in order to attain a more abstract, rational or spiritual truth.
The Lotus Sutra is unequivocal on this point. One may seek in every one of the 10 directions,
but will find no mode other than the Buddha's. This accounts for what may seem to be
an inordinate amount of praise directed by the sutra toward itself.
It also implies that within the sutra, there is an unmistakable philosophical move
opposite to Plato's in the Republic, a move to affirm the complete reality of the world,
of concrete phenomena in spite of the fact that they are impermanent.
So here's this stupa of this ancient Buddha abundant treasure showing up,
praising the Lotus Sutra, which is this text in which this
ancient Buddha abundant treasure shows up to praise the Lotus Sutra.
And in some ways, this points to a kind of radical non-dualism that's at the heart of
our practice and at the heart of Dogon's teaching. This is not about something else.
The Lotus Sutra itself is the Lotus Sutra talking about the Lotus Sutra.
Our Zazen refers to itself. It's not about something else. Of course, everything that
you might think of as other than Zazen is present on your cushion, on your sitting.
And yet, that's the point. It's not other than just this.
Can we find a way of being, a way of seeing, a way of inhaling and exhaling that is just
hooray, this is Zazen, which is saying hooray, this is Zazen as the heart of our Zazen.
It's not about something else. It's just this.
Our life itself.
Just this is it.
So in the example of the Lotus Sutra, which again, you know, is filled with these many stories and
really challenges our imagination. We can't quite grasp, you know, this Buddha showing up to praise
the Sutra, which is about the Buddha showing up to praise the Sutra. It's elusive. And yet, it's
not about something else. It's just the Sutra. This is why in Nichiren Buddhism, for example,
their practice is just to chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, homage to this wondrous Dharma, Blossom Lotus Sutra.
Dogen praised the Lotus Sutra extravagantly and cited it more than any other Sutra.
And his way of practicing that was just sit like abundant treasures in a stupa.
Or like Shakyamuni Buddha, welcoming abundant treasures. Just sit. Here we are.
Now that may seem like it's irrelevant to, you know, the suffering of the world. The point of this
is that this is the heart of all the moans. And it includes all the moans. So all of the things that
each of you do in your life as expressions of your life, as your life itself, they're not
separate from your life. They are your life. On Monday night, when you come here, it's Sasa.
But tomorrow, during the day, when you're, whatever your regular task is, that's it.
Can we say yes to all of it? Good job, Shakyamuni. Good work. Yes, this is the Lotus Sutra.
There are probably many other ways to understand and imagine aspects of what is going on in this story.
And, you know, it's weird and strange and challenging and not, you know, something that
well, anyway, it's not like any other spiritual text that I know of.
You know, chapter 11 through chapter, whatever it is, 22, the whole assembly, the whole sutra is
happening, floating in midair. And Shakyamuni is sitting in this old stupa next to this ancient
Buddha, who apparently, you know, I don't know if he's mummified or whatever, it's his relics,
and yet he speaks and says, good job, Shakyamuni.
So this is what this Lotus Sutra is about, that it's not somewhere else.
The meaning of the Lotus Sutra is this. Of course, I invite you, when Gene Reeves is
here in a couple of weeks, to ask him what he would say is the meaning of the Lotus Sutra.
And we'll be sitting next to each other. We'll be doing the talk.
I'll stop now, but I invite your comments, questions, responses, imaginings.
Okay, Susanna.
Well done.
You know, I'm a sutra jockey, most people know this by now. But the Lotus Sutra has been a
tough one for me because of this craziness itself. But, yeah, now I like it. I'm like,
I see what, you know, it's because you can read this and chant it and be involved in it for years.
And it's this kind of, you know, teetering on the edge of it. So, you know.
When I came in today, I was offered a sack of potatoes.
Ah, great.
Potatoes were received.
Good luck.
And I offered some illegally burned CD tapes in return.
But I love this offering. Constantly, like something cool happens and everybody's like,
we're going to offer jewels, incense, flowers. You know, I wish we did this. You know, in Asia,
you actually do. You can buy tons of jasmine wreaths and tons of garlands that they're
selling on the street because you just like offer them up in a variety of places.
I mean, maybe we do this for each other.
Yeah, like the unhesitating quality of it. You know, I'm not even ashamed.
You know, it's like I got this sack of potatoes. They were purple.
Yeah, making offerings is the heart of this too.
Yes. Yes.
And, you know, there are half a dozen other good translations, but I really, you know,
was amazed when I started reading Gene's translation.
Before I knew whose it was, I was asked to look at it and
I thought we had plenty of good translations. But anyway, I recommend it.
Jim.
I was trying to partially focus on the modernity of some elements of the Christian tradition
post-Peruvian where
there's a notion that God is there but he's not there.
The hidden God, the God behind the scene who reveals himself when he wants to and
the rest of the time you're out of luck.
And here there is this notion, at least
I get it, it's okay to not, that
Buddha is there but not as he
assumes him and assumes the person he's speaking to.
Yeah, part of the idea of skillful modes is that Buddha and Bodhisattvas appear in
whatever way is helpful, you know, to different kinds of beings.
And then there's this thing about time that's in here too that here's this Buddha from this
ancient past showing up again and again whenever the Buddha, whenever the Lotus
Sutra is preached. And going back to what Hogetsu was saying about having trouble
with this Lotus, with reading this text, I think most Zen students do at first.
And I remember, and I'll talk about this Sunday afternoon next to time when half of the
assembly at San Francisco Zen Center walked out of the Buddha Hall in the middle of morning service
because of the Lotus Sutra. So this is challenging.
The great great Rinzai Master Hakuin who founded modern Rinzai Zen, when he was a young
monk read the Lotus Sutra and said, oh this is just, you know, fantasies, it's not important.
And then after he'd had many satori's, awakenings, he, you know, in his 50s I think,
read it again and said, oh yes, now I get it, this is the king of the Sutra.
So I think a lot of Buddhist texts are like that. We struggle with them and it's okay if you don't,
you don't have to like the Lotus Sutra, you don't even have to read it.
But I wanted this month, in preparation for Jin's coming, to kind of introduce you to some
aspects of it and, you know, pick up on it as you wish. Other comments?
Okay.
It's okay, you don't have to, you know, like any particular text.
Yes, say.
I personally confess that I started reading the Lotus Sutra like three times and never finished it.
But is Shakuni the Krita that is like the original author of the Sutra?
Because that's what I thought when you were talking about that ancient Buddha that, you know,
he was teaching it in his lifetime,
and it obviously went up in the past.
Well, sutras are, there's a formula for sutras.
They begin, I don't know, usually,
it used to be translated, thus have I heard at one time.
What does Gene do at the beginning of that?
I'm curious now as a translator.
At one time, the Buddha was saying,
oh, this is what I heard.
At one time, the Buddha was saying it,
Raja Griha on Holy Eagle Peak.
The sutra, a sutra by definition
is something spoken by the Buddha.
That's the idea of it.
And usually, in the Pali Canon,
in the early Theravada texts,
that means Shakyamuni Buddha,
who lived 400-some BC in Northern India.
They revised when they think he lived, but recently.
But in this world of the Bodhisattva,
there are Buddhas before Buddha.
So when we chant the names of the Buddhas and ancestors,
there are seven Buddhas before Buddha.
There's this way, what does Buddha mean?
This is, in some ways, the fundamental question.
The fundamental question.
All of you are here because you are concerned
about the quality of your life,
about spiritual practice, spiritual something.
That, so what is Buddha?
And what the Mahayana Sutras say is that,
yeah, there's this guy in our history
that started Buddhism in Northern India,
but Buddha is a quality, and there have been many Buddhas,
and there will be many Buddhas,
and there are many Buddhas in many directions.
And it's, you know,
I keep waiting for George Lucas or Spielberg
or somebody to do the Lotus Sutra
or the Flower Ornament Sutra,
and they're not ready yet, unfortunately.
I think it's because I can't budget.
Yeah.
And their special effects are pretty good,
but anyway, it's...
So yeah, Shakyamuni Buddha is the author of the sutra,
and yet, this sutra particularly,
whenever he says it, this ancient Buddha shows up.
What is, how does that?
So that's why I laughed at your question,
because what does it mean that someone
is the author of a text like this?
We have this idea of so-and-so wrote this text,
or this was translated into Chinese by Kumara Jiva.
That's the translation that, into Chinese,
that all the English translations are based on.
But where does this come from?
This ancient Buddha vowed that he would not become a Buddha
unless he could go and praise the Lotus Sutra
whenever it was preached.
So it must have been preached back then.
He must have heard of it.
Our sense, our usual sense of what the world is,
what reality is, what time is, what our life is,
gets turned inside out by this kind of stuff.
And that's scary and challenging sometimes.
So it's okay if you don't want to read the Lotus Sutra.
You know, it's not required.
You can be a very good Zen student
and just pretend you never heard about this sutra.
And yet, there's something here.
Again, it's really the core of all Japanese Buddhism
in so many ways, historically, philosophically.
And it,
maybe it's just enough to hear
that it points towards some opening
of what it is that we think Buddha is.
It goes beyond how we usually think
of Buddha or anything else.
And that it's okay, and that it's wonderful,
and that it means there are abundant treasures.
Yes, Nancy?
It seems like it just encourages us
to think outside the box.
You know, by just opening the box.
Yeah.
In this instance, it sort of encourages you
to think outside the box
in all sorts of other situations.
It doesn't really tell you what's outside the box.
And, yes, yes, and what's outside the box
is exactly inside the box, too.
It's not about going somewhere else.
Right now is outside the box, here.
This body-mind on your cushion or chair right now
is much more amazing than we usually,
than our usual human conceptualization allows us to get.
Yes, Jim?
It's,
seems again, like it's like the
Möbius strip of time modeled on a period.
Here's this text, and within the text,
the text is being preached.
Yes.
And the text that's being preached
is the one that's talking about the text being preached.
And also, notions of time sequence,
again, it's a bit like the
Christian, what was it before?
It was, I can't remember.
The whole notion of time is being jumped inside those.
Yes, and yeah, twice you brought up Christian analogies,
and I think from the perspective of skillful means
and skillful modes, and seeing,
you know, I mean, this is a Zen Buddhist center,
but Buddhism isn't the point of Buddhism.
The point of Buddhism is that there isn't any Buddhism,
and that, you know, whatever path anyone takes,
as long as it helps relieve suffering
and entering into the process of awakening,
that's what this is.
Yes, please.
I actually have a hard time reading sutras,
and I wonder if maybe you could talk a little bit about,
I guess there was, I can't remember who said it,
but Zen is beyond sutras, beyond verbs.
Oh, yeah.
And kind of the, for me, the danger
of kind of over intellectualizing through the sutras
and how you can make it accurate
that you read the sutras without following
the inwards rule, perhaps.
Yes, good, very good, thank you for the question.
Yeah, this is foundational to Zen.
It's attributed to Bodhidharma, the founder of Zen,
who lived around 500 or 600, but I don't,
there's no record of it actually appearing in print
until like maybe the 1000s, but the idea that Zen
is beyond, direct pointing to the mind,
beyond words and letters is a kind of old Chan slogan.
And it's a very, thank you for that question.
It's very important to talking about sutras.
Part of what, well, Zen emphasizes
our own personal experience.
We sit on our cushion.
We feel what it's like to be this person.
We face the wall, we face ourselves.
We see this body and its sensations,
this mind and its thoughts.
It's about direct personal experience.
Not getting caught by words or letters
is how I would gloss that.
Dogen particularly talks about the Zazen way
to study words and letters.
That, as you say, to study this sutra
and over-intellectualize it and then make it
into some formula that then, well,
that explains everything and I can just,
so in some ways, we might criticize Nichiren Buddhism
for just saying Nam-myoho-renge-kyo,
but they also study the sutra and study themselves.
It's a skillful means towards that.
The point, though, is not to get caught
by the words and letters.
So what, so Dogen talks a lot about how to read and study.
And the way to do that is exactly how we do Zazen.
It's not about something else.
So if we, so it's pretty common to come
to meditation practice wanting something.
Peace of mind, settling, calm, clarity,
to relieve, reduce stress, you know, some benefit.
And those things may happen, but in Dogen's Zazen,
the point is just to sit, that our idea or expectation
of some outcome is not the point,
and it's not what the outcome's gonna be.
Our expectation is never what actually happens.
Just to, so just like I was talking about the sutra itself
being about itself and our Zazen being about our Zazen,
Dogen talks about studying not to learn something
or get something or reach some understanding,
but just as a way of appreciating our own experience.
So again, the studying of the Lotus Sutra
should point you back to,
oh, I don't know about the should,
but anyway, it can point us back to something
that we can't really articulate,
but we can recognize about our own experience.
That's the way to read this.
And if it doesn't do that, forget about it.
Come back to it in a few years or whatever.
And it may never do it for you.
And that's why there are many different sutras.
And the idea of skillful modes in the Lotus Sutra
is that take what works for you.
Take what helps you really appreciate the experience
of this person on your cushion.
And with that spirit, it's fine.
It's okay to read sutras and read Zen teachings.
It's okay to do that,
as long as you're not trying to get something else
from them, as long as it's just a way
of appreciating Zazen.