In addition to the surfaces of many of our monasteries, especially Grand Robinson Church and Holy Docks, which we've just talked about, we have 3,043. Sometimes they enroll as graduate students and faculty. And so it's important, I think, that we have to know what it is with the development of and the significant shift that has taken place since the Council and the World Council approached the discussion. And what I find is that most people seem to be unaware of any development, of racist work. So you don't want it? Yes. No, no, [...] no. I think it's my voice that can get this.

[01:02]

I did do a little article in Worship for September 2005 which I called, One House, Many Dwellings. A note on open and closed communion. It's one house, many dwellings. An Oath, Note on Open and Closed Communion, September 2005. It is better by the way to talk about open and closed communion, rather than intercommunion, because intercommunion implies reciprocity. Church has not modified its views on Roman Catholics receiving Eucharists in other Orthodox or Protestant churches. It's better to use the term, open, close to me.

[02:05]

When I teach Eucharists, I always begin with the New Testament data. And there are three little books that I certainly would recommend. John X. Abbott of Durham-Fordell has sent me a lovely little book on the Eucharist in the New Testament, which is published by the Evangelical Press. And Eugene LeMarié of ABRDIER. How old is he? LeMarié. He's done two rather useful books, I think. One is called The Eucharist in the New Testament and The Early Church. And then he's also done another book on Dining in the Kingdom of God, The Origins of the Eucharist According to Luke. We've had a stroke because he used to teach at the University of Chicago Theological Union.

[03:15]

I think this poor man had a stroke a couple of years ago, and he seems to have blacked out in the picture. Another book that I find very useful is Francis Maloney, M-O-L-O-N-E-Y. The Australian that I mentioned the other day. And this book would be published in this country by Arthur Collins. It's simply called A Body Written for a Broken People. Now what has struck me, you know, in reading these books, is that as one surveys the New Testament data, it's quite clear that often the Eucharistic meals, for example, are not only the Last Supper, but above all, the meals that anticipate the Last Supper of Jesus. Meals, for example, with the Socrates, as well as those who are, in some senses, enemies.

[04:19]

There's quite regularly a healing dimension to those rites. And I think this is something that we need to take into account today for the simple reason that for many people because of fractured relationships today, those who might be involved in invalid marriages and so forth, healing is extremely important in the lives of those people. So the title of the article You know, taken directly from the gospel, there are many dwelling places in my father's house. But throughout history, our Christian churches have, in fact, often built very high walls around the house and posted signs saying, only those who think themselves worthy may enter here. Only those who think themselves worthy may enter here.

[05:22]

I was somewhat surprised when one of my grad students this past spring thought of me shooting at a funeral in one of the neighboring dioceses to thank God. And she said, when we got to the Eucharistic prayer, the presider pronounced, those who are Roman Catholics, please kneel. Those who are not, please sit. And then he came to communion time. And he said very publicly, those who are really talented and think that they are worthy, may come forward for communion. Others may not. A very fast little approach to this question. It raises the whole question, I think, again, of our image of God.

[06:26]

Is God a loving God? A forgiving God? Or the harsh judge, you see, who's always loading people on them? All right, if you go through the various Gospels then, I think you will sense very clearly this emphasis on the healing dimension of the universe. But along those lines, I think it's important for us to remember that the Christian tradition of Jesus celebrating fraternal meals, for example, with prostitutes and sinners, the meal itself became an occasion for conversion and for healing. But it didn't take long for legislation to take place, for example Paul's letter to the Corinthians, where restrictions certainly were placed on those who rightly celebrated the Eucharist.

[07:32]

As a subsequent Christian tradition has generally been reserved for those who have thought of themselves worthy to approach it and those who think that they are without serious sins. And I would note at the same time that the Gospels report that the broken, the sinful, and the unrighteous were both privileged and delighted to share communion with Jesus. And, as Bologna has pointed out, this pyramid speaks boldly of God's kingdom as a place where the accepted abstinence of religion, history, and culture should be overturned. So the outcasts and the sinners are also welcome at Tate. Still a text from Maldony, he said, Scripture has the task of acting like a double-edged sword, bringing comfort to the afflicted, and affliction to the comfortable, when the tradition has been relentlessly domesticated in the historically and culturally conditioned tradition.

[09:00]

All right, let's go through the tradition then. Let's take a look first of all at the Orthodox Church. There has not been much development in the Antique area. The Orthodox Church is generally told very firmly in the teaching of Saint Cyprian that there is but one Catholic Church. Consequently, one communion. And they generally hold that apart from that church, which is their church, in their minds, heretics and schismatics simply fall into an ecclesiological wasteland. So the Orthodox have generally tended to hold that between the true church and the other groups, no communion is possible. because the others do not have the Holy Spirit who is present and operative only in Roman and in Orthodox sacraments.

[10:13]

Now just recently, some Orthodox theologians, especially Ziziolus, and acknowledge the presence and power of the Holy Spirit operating beyond the limits of the Orthodox institutional church. And that variety of ecclesiology then has begun to raise significant pastoral questions for the Orthodox. They have, for example, been adamant about the ordination of women There's a shift recently taking place there. For example, some of them are pressing very hard for the ordination of women to the diaconate. And personally, I feel that that is an area where Roman Catholics ought to be pursuing. The Doculus of Theological Commission simply left it hanging.

[11:17]

without any adequate answer. Penn and Law Society in this country study the question heavily. and saw that there was no legitimate obession or objection to ordaining women to the diaconate. The fear, by the way, is that once they get their foot in the diaconate, which is certainly part of the sacrament of holy orders, then they'll want to be pope. Well, pretend you're listening. That's necessarily the case. Anyway, what I would just say about the Orthodox is that there is development of ecclesiology going on here, development in pneumatology going on here. It might very well then provide for some relaxation of their attitude towards open commune. It's unclear. Historically, historically, oh yeah,

[12:21]

Historically, have we had women deacons in the early church? Those who study the issue would say yes. And were they ordained? And they would say yes. Yes. I taught this material, the fear, and here we'll do this survey, the whole level, you know. They said yes. Yes, there were. Now, what about the Protestant churches? When sincere, be the Lutheran, be the Boar, be the Anglicans, the Methodists, and the Baptists. And there is considerable variety among Protestant ecclesiologies, and consequently often very different attitudes than toward open communion. The Lutherans, for example, originally emphasized the importance of creedal belief.

[13:29]

Do you believe in the gospel? Do you believe in Jesus Christ? So they have regularly insisted on the need and necessity of agreement in doctrine as a condition for sharing in both the pulpit and communion table. In 1975, especially among the German liberals, there was a shift in position. They adopted the position that access to the Lord's table is in principle open to every baptized Christian who comes trusting in Christ's word of promise as spoken in the words of institutions. So generally the position today among Lutherans is that anyone who is baptized, anyone who confesses Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior may be admitted to the universe.

[14:41]

Luther and the foreign churches in Europe generally practice ecclesial and sacramental fellowship. And a similar practice exists generally among Lutherans in this country, Lutherans and before. Now, until the 18th century, the Anglican Church maintained Eucharistic fellowship, especially with the Reformed churches in Europe. But then in the 19th century, with the Oxford movement, Anglicans generally insisted on the need for unity in the ordained priesthood. And consequently, apostolic succession among bishops became a condition for offering communion to those who were not Anglicans.

[15:53]

As you know, Roman Catholics have had a major problem with the validity of Anglican orders. But more recently in this country, the ELCA, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in this country, and the Episcopalians have signed a covenant agreeing to intercommunity. And that has caused a lot of consternation among, extensively, among conservative Lutherans who are in the ELCA. They have a very large, but very conservative seminary in St. Paul. And people thought there might be a schism in the seminary. For the simple reason, what the covenant is really saying, is the validity of ordination is no longer an issue. and along the Lutheran Celtic belt were changing radically our ecclesiology by making up, making a covenant with the Church which does not in fact proclaim a hierarchy.

[17:05]

Missing Lutherans generally would acknowledge two sacraments, baptism and Eucharist, and emphasize then the priesthood of all the faithful. In general, though, in practice in this country, most ethnical communities would practice folk and creed. The early Methodists practiced a rather strict discipline, linked up with what they called the fencing of the table. When a gradual shift took place there, So that, as I think I mentioned the other day, Geoffrey Wainwright, who's a long time British Methodist and a minister in his church, has said that since the early 20th century, the communion call in most Methodist churches is generally, y'all come as long as you feel Jesus love.

[18:11]

In other words, there is very little emphasis on uniformity of creed, what you believe. So I think you conclude here that it is among the Protestant churches generally, the basic requirement is usually baptism. and creeds and codes of behavior often tend not to be emphasized as remarks. All right, let's move on to the Roman Catholic Church. Here's where this development of position might fall. Was it not stereotypical noise? Restrict, restrict, restrict, yes, yes, well definitely, definitely.

[19:19]

It is interesting if you've ever been to an Orthodox Eucharist, after the Eucharist was over, Unconsecrated bread is given to those who feel that they were unworthy to receive communion. It's called the antedoron. That that happens, by the way, in English, but in Eastern churches both. Those that are in union with Rome and those that are not. I think I'm gonna cry. Alright, it's been so long. Now, it's in the Roman Catholic Church where there has been the most significant developments. The 1917 Code of Canon Law simply outlawed the administration of all sacraments belonging to Catholics.

[20:26]

This is what it said in Canon 731. It is forbidden the sacraments of the Church be administered to heretics and schismatics, even if they ask for them and are in good faith, unless beforehand, rejecting their errors, they are reconciled with the Church, even if they become Catholics. The decree on ecumenism of the Second Vatican Council shifted somewhat 1917 Code. The Council was especially open to sharing of all the sacraments from Eucharist, penance, and the anointing of the sick with the Orthodox who did not have their own ministers available to celebrate those sacraments for them.

[21:32]

For example, this is what it said, because these churches, even though separated from us, have true sacraments, especially by virtue of apostolic succession, the Eucharist and the priesthood, some form of common worship called the Unicatio in Sacris, was not only admissible, but even advisable in the right circumstances and with the approval of Church authority. The Council then, in its degree on ecumenism, established two main principles. First of all, it looks upon the Eucharist as expressive on the unity of the church. And so we just traditionally take a very conservative approach to that. You see, symbols are both expressive of reality and constitutive of reality. They express a reality, but they also deepen a reality.

[22:38]

First of all, attention is given to the expressive dimension. and then secondly the sharing of the sacraments as means of grace so because we are united in doctrine with the Orthodox and with Protestants generally then the search for unity forbids common worship including the Eucharist but it also certainly restricts the allowance of the Septimates to be constitutive of God's light in Virginia. Alright, following the Council then, on the 14th of May, 1967, the Secretariat for the Promotion of Christian Unity issued a Decumenical Directory. And again it dealt in a quite restrictive way with the policy of sacramental sharing with Protestants.

[23:53]

It prohibited them from receiving the Eucharist as well as penance and the anointing of the sick. Except on a very individual basis in cases of pressing need and then there are examples such as danger of death persecution or imprisonment. And the sacraments could be shared then only when such persons did not have access to a minister of their own denomination. And they had to ask for the sacraments on their own initiative. The directory maintained, however, is 1967. The Catholics could receive communion from Protestants to ministers if they requested these sacraments from a minister who was in fact validly ordained. It's quite common now, especially in England, that many Anglican priests will very clearly claim that they are validly ordained because the ordaining vision

[25:04]

was ordained as a bishop in the old Catholic Church. So, Cardinal Basil Youth, when he received many, quite a few Anglican priests in the Roman Catholic Church, following the Anglican decision to ordain women to be priests to him, always very carefully made a distinction here. Were you ordained, in fact, by a bishop? The Bishop of London became a Roman Catholic priest. And he very clearly claimed that he was validly ordained because he was ordained by a bishop who had proper diogenes and was ordained by a bishop of the Old Catholic Church. All right, the next step is June 1, 1972. And the Secretariat for the Promotion of Christian Unity again returned to the issue.

[26:06]

And that text posited five conditions for the admission of non-human Catholics to sacramental communion. First of all, they must have a serious spiritual need for Eucharistic sustenance. Secondly, for a prolonged period, they must have been unable to have recourse to a minister of their own communion. Thirdly, they must ask for the sacrament of their own accord. By late, they must have proper dispositions and live worthy lives as Christians. Now, in that little list, the second condition softens the line, preeminently set out that one has to be in danger of death or subject to persecution or imprisonment.

[27:15]

It can be for the serious spiritual enrichment of the person. Alright, the next step is the 1983 code. And by and large, the code simply lists the existing discipline without any significant changes. On the 25th of March, 1993, The Secretary for the Promotion of Christian Unity, which is now, by the way, the Vatican Pontifical Council for the Promotion of Christian Unity, issued a revised edition of the Directory for the Application of the Principles and Norms of Ecumenism. And it's stipulated that those wishing to receive communion in the Catholic Church must manifest Catholic faith in this sacrament.

[28:24]

This is stated to have to believe in infallibility. Don't be a limbo. Catholic faith in this sacrament and then it goes on and it's open to the possibility of Eucharistic sharing for example with a non-Catholic party at a Catholic wedding mass and on special occasions during the married life of the parties provided the diocesan bishop gives permission in this regard. I don't know what your experience is in this regard. Personally for a so-called mixed marriage, I always encourage people not to have a youth first. Not to have a youth first. Because often the family of the non-Catholic party uses this. If they're non-Catholics, it causes enormous confusion about who can come and who can't to receive the sacrament.

[29:29]

Now, this is where the significant changes begin to take place. On December 25, 1995, John Paul II issues this encyclical poem for Cubanism called Poipunan Sin, that they all may be one. and listen very carefully to the words. He says, it is a source of joy. To note, Catholic ministers are able, in certain particular cases, to administer the sacraments of the Eucharist, penance, and anointing of the sin to Christians who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

[30:32]

1. Greatly desire to receive these sacraments. 2. Freely request them. 3. Manifest the faith which the Catholic Church professes with regard to these sacraments. It's a major change in the list of The condition of no access to one's own minister has disappeared completely. And what is also very interesting that this affirmation seems to have been very special in the mind of the Pope. Because he says, first of all, it's a source of joy to be able to do that. And the attitude of the text, I'm afraid, contrasts markedly with that of some Eucharistic ministers who give the impression that they own the Eucharist.

[31:39]

Very begrudgingly men share it with others whom they do not think worth. Church and all ministers within the church are always doing things, servants of the Eucharist. And what is very key is that the Pope repeated those words verbatim in 1993 in his encyclical on the use. Verbatim. I would refer you to, for commentary on this, the Walter Caspian, pardon me, Walter Caspian book, which came out in 2004, is simply called the Sacrament of Unity, the Eucharist, and the Church. Walter Tetz, the KSPER, the Sacrament of Unity, the Eucharist, and the Church.

[32:45]

Obviously now, attitudes will vary considerably, I think, from monastery to monastery, and diocese to diocese. I remember with my own Bishop in St. Cloud, I sent him this article on execution to worship, but I also sent him that Cardinal Kessler's little book. He wrote that immediately. It's marvelous, the shift of attitude involved here. As I think I mentioned yesterday, it becomes a very important pastoral question for us at St. John's, because we have the Institute for Ecumenical and Cultural Research, where we invite ten scholars and their families, you know, either to spend a semester or a whole year. Usually about a half, if not two-thirds of those are not Roman Catholic. We also have the a Sistapelian house of prayer on campus.

[33:53]

We gave them five acres to build the house of prayer, and often one of their priests is not available to celebrate Eucharist for them regularly. And we also regularly have graduate students in the School of Theology who are not going to have And we're having to do these, so we can't be going regularly to their own Episcopal churches, you see, in St. Paul and so forth. So it becomes a very practical question for us. I would say that probably the most complicated cases involving the reception of communion often pertained to Roman Catholics themselves are in fact prohibited from receiving the Eucharist because of canonical irregularities involved in an invalid marriage. What I want to keep in mind here is that there have been significant developments in the discipline of the Roman Catholic Church concerning open communion.

[35:02]

And so Cardinal Kasper and Cardinal Karl Lehmann, the president of the German Episcopal Conference, along with another one of the German bishops, did in fact then petition Rome, specifically Cardinal Ratzinger, in the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, requesting that the policy reassess its current legislation concerning communion for people who are involved in an invalid marriage. The request did not receive a positive response. of the Roman congregation. But the three bishops then in turn did in fact write a remarkably pastoral and sensitive letter to the pastors of their own diocese in an effort to encourage these people to respond as positively as possible to the serious needs of such people, especially

[36:09]

Catholics in an invalid marriage who have children out and trying to rear their children in the Catholic Church. It was very interesting that Colonel Matzinger probably was not very pleased with the request. And as a matter of fact, with the last batch of cardinals that John pulled the second day, he passed over Archbishop Carl Leiden, and the Germans went wild. And it's very dangerous. What is the church's stance on, you said, being in an invalid marriage, but if the person is divorced and not remarried, they can receive... Trying to live a good Catholic life. It's a tough issue. Tough issue. You know, in fact, I think it's important to try to keep in mind that when John Paul II finally died,

[37:20]

when Cardinal Matzinger presided at the funeral, the first one reeled up to communion was Roger Shultz. There's little doubt also that when Tony Blair and his wife Sherry had a private interview, they went to the mass in the morning with the young Paul II, and he was given communion. As a matter of fact, she's a very staunch Catholic, by the way. And the children, I think they're poor children, They're all being reared as Catholics in Catholic schools and so forth. So, Tony Blair, the Prime Minister, regularly went to church with them on Sunday, and did in fact receive communion. Well, the Tablet and the London Times get wind of all this and say, very unkindly, you know, he's a crypto-Catholic, he shouldn't be Prime Minister and all the rest. So Cardinal Hughes did invite him, not to communicate. It is fairly well known that one of the atonement friars who runs the Ecumenical Commission in the Diocese of Westminster regularly visits 10 Downing Street for liturgical celebration.

[38:37]

It is presumed that once he gets out as Prime Minister, probably, will be perhaps in winter, he will in fact become a Well, from a pastoral standpoint, we have authority and responsibility to make those decisions. Don't you pastor here, there, anywhere? Or is it the bishop's or someone's authority to make those decisions? I heard you say in front of your own community, you have this situation where it's hoisted on you because of the circumstances of being educated in the palace of prayer and so on. you know, that as well, it's reaching into the policy of the Church as I understand it, that as soon as you're doing pastoral care, the bishop gets involved. Yes, yes. So, I mean, how does that play in? So, with our bishop, this is perfectly legitimate. Okay. That's what I mentioned, probably, and some abbots might take very conservative attitude like this.

[39:39]

I think there's a basic canon, though, that says people, baptized people have a right to sacrifice. Baptized people have a right. I used to take a much more conservative approach to this, for example, with a couple coming to bring a child, and, oh, we don't have envelopes and we haven't been to the church. So, how do you respond to that pastoral situation? Often, for example, when I was in Washington, I was teaching at Cafeo a couple years ago, just as a visiting professor, Then I used to go to one of the black churches on Sunday, and in the pew with me was always grandmother and her four boys. Not her boys, but her daughter's boys, obviously. So often it's the grandmother or the aunt, as you know, that takes over in these situations. So I think you make a personal decision depending on each case.

[40:40]

Yes, and I understand that the issue of the privacy issue, like, say, if you're going to your ministry privately with someone who's a holder of a different policy, and just to share, like, the exact example you gave, when some couple comes and they want a little baby baptized and, you know, they don't put a mask on, and whatever's going on in their life, you try to find out what is going on in their life, and then the next thing is, I always give them the teaching of the church, but say, now we're not going to hold the baby hostage at this moment, let's deal with this, let's have a baptism, and how can I help you get on track? That's right, and often, where this is made simpler, is often parishes will have pre-baptismal So I think you should go back to them, and if they don't come, well then... But I do think diocesan policy should be clearer about this. Well, it seems to me that there's a lot of... one of these miscellets, and they still have a very direct and blunt piece of information in there, and it seems to somewhat deviate from what you shared.

[41:53]

Exactly. and I didn't think that including the St. John's missile. Well I break some of this but uh one of my I think the key for me is probably the African Amphitheater. I think that's very important. However, frankly, I don't know how you go about doing that, especially if it's someone you've never messed with before. The other thing I always get concerned about, you know, with what they call open communion, you know, I don't want to put the cart before the horse. You know, at least that's the highest sacrament. of the church looks like it is our unity. And I've heard people in my community say, well, if we have this totally open community, there could be a need for unity. And I think that's approaching it factually.

[42:56]

I'm very wary of You know, if they're already getting the Eucharist, what music do they know they need to play for? For me, that's at the end. That's the goal. We want to share the Eucharist with everybody. You know, if they don't manifest a campus faith in the Eucharist, what sort of community are they going to be active in? I don't think John Paul II would have told me just that, obviously. He would? I don't think he would. I would want to affirm, though, that baptism is the primary site. I think that very much needs to be re-emphasized today. And the ordination must come out of Baptists. We need to appreciate, in terms of laity in the ministry these days, the dignity that comes from initiation into the Christian community. And for example, when you talk about faith in the sacrament,

[43:57]

Most people right now, for example, older Presbyterians might say, you know, following Calvin's position, that, well, the Eucharist is simply a memorial, a reminder of what went on at the Last Supper. Well, I don't think that's adequate. They'll say, yes, I believe in the real presence of the Lord. That doesn't mean that they understand transubstantiation. I wouldn't want to answer those German Catholics. People just don't have an understanding of transubstantiation, right? Do I believe that the Lord Jesus is truly present? Do I take literally, or go there with faith, the observation? In fact, there are two or three are gathered together in my name. There I am in the midst. One of I want to say that maybe a different way, what Gregory is saying, that the church doesn't want, the church wants unity among all Christians, but not, it doesn't mean compromise among matters of faith.

[45:07]

Unity means that all Christians be brought into the Catholic faith, united in the Catholic faith. And so in regards to the Eucharist, Christians who wish to receive it, as in all of the stipulations we've heard, must at least show some Catholic faith in the Eucharist as being God's, right? That's right. Believe, as John Paul II said, they must believe in the real presence in the Eucharist. And most people, I think, put in this situation, would believe in a creed. They would believe in a creed. You think that's enough to receive the Eucharist? Not enough, I think that's an awful lot to believe in the three. I guess I'm just, I'm leery of Christians coming to receive the Eucharist who think they're just receiving a symbol and nothing else. No, no, [...] what did I say about symbols the other day? The symbols are real. but not the understanding of the material reality.

[46:17]

It's yes, a symbol to all of us, I agree, but it's more than just a symbol. I'm not comfortable with that. More real than a symbol. Symbols are always real. They partly be real and partly concealed. I just don't want to hide the fact that Eucharist is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of God himself. Well, I don't either. Yeah. And John Paul II would be the last one who would want you to hide that fact. I'm going to encourage you to take up a joyful attitude toward this. A joyful attitude. to be able to share the body and blood of the Lord Jesus with others. I would agree. I want to say too, but I think, I don't think that Catholics, that the Catholic Church has refused peeing into other Christians out of their unworthiness, but rather

[47:29]

I mean, we all receive the universe because we're worthy to be saved, but before we do, Lord, I am not worthy. We receive it because we have to change what we receive. You see, there would be three Greeks that do it. There's Greeks that would be cold. John Paul II was getting at, in the Lottery, this important. Creed, code, how do you behave? and what's your understanding of this sacrament, this virtue? And what is very interesting, you know, with Protestants who only believe, most of them, in the sacraments of baptism and Eucharist, simply the sacrament of penance does amplify considerably their understanding of sacramental rites. Now some of the Lutherans in the ELCA would maintain that we're becoming too Roman Catholic. in this regard. It will be very interesting. I think the vote will go through. But it will be very interesting to hear the discussion.

[48:35]

Just one more, possibly. With regard to the symbol, I think we need to be careful with interfering in In Protestant churches who do administer a communion, we have to remember that there is a very real difference between their... Yes, and consequently there has been no change then in the discipline about Roman Catholics receiving the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church, the Protestant Churches, the Anglican Churches. When I'm involved in situations where For example, at the North American Academy of Liturgy, if the president happens to be Protestant or Anglican, and there is a Eucharist, I just don't go to the Eucharist. Don't go to the Eucharist.

[49:37]

If a lot of Catholics are there, it tends to set up a very divisive sort of experience for me. If you ask for a session, the point is you've saved the creed so I can't be outside if we want to talk of church whereas if it's a canon or a protestant minister then we can receive them well if they are validly ordained and your own minister would not be available and the discipline pertains not only to the protestants but to the evolved developed in situations for example where Or you would think of communist countries, or even China, present time, where, for example, your own ordained priests are not available. Enormous confusion about all this, by the way, with the tension between the patriotic church in China and the underground church, who's validly ordained and not ordained.

[50:44]

Lots of tension. We have, I think you do too. You've had Chinese seminarians. Two of ours have just recently been made bishops. Enormous tension over the one, though, because he was ordained secretly by the Vatican last October. The other one has just been named, and I don't think he has been ordained yet as a bishop. Well, when you get down to it, when a person comes up to you in the communion line, holds out their hands, that's not the time to say, are you Catholic or are you not Catholic. That's the time when you have to assume, come in with faith. You assume with faith on people's part. Tony O'McDonnell always will tell people, people who come and ask him about this, he says, we do here what they do in St. Peter's in Rome. Is there not going to have to be a larger composition of every single ritual?

[51:46]

No, you can't. It's very interesting, you know. Pastoral sensitivity, I think, is important here. I remember when Rose Trinity died. The funeral was televised. And it's quite well known that, what's his name, the young Kennedy, Ted Kennedy, you know, was married, divorced, and he's remarried again. Pardon the law, very explicitly gave him the yiddish. I mean, you give scandal to people, and it was a very embarrassing situation, but the television zeroes in on that. Just one question regarding something that you said, we may see the opposite, we could swing the sacraments for our above and we may see the opposite.

[52:51]

So you didn't make reference to the old Catholics, but who else do we consider valid in your opinion? Well, one of what was coming out of that many times was the space of themselves, validly ordained, because they, in fact, were ordained by a validly ordained bishop. He was Pope John. So, it's basically, Sunday, weekend, Sunday, you start studying in Osaka. Yes, yes. Well, dear, with this new understanding of Eucharistic, say, openness, the way in which we bring people to the Church, especially Baptized Christians, by permitting them to go through steps before receiving communion, or... Well, the RCI is very clear about this. Then I have heard people raise the question, for example, undergrads at St. John's, who on their own initiative, after picking horses in theology, on their own initiative then proceed to receive communion regularly at mass on Sunday, and then decide finally to join the RCIA.

[54:01]

And pastorally, how do you deal with that question? Do you say, now, for the next nine months, we practice eucharistic abstention? Well, I discussed two cases where I'll know on my own, and I will get a fish in a rod into the chair. What's so important to be passionately sensitive? To have traceables. Also to be compassionate. Well, I know that in some Eastern right Catholic churches that they will, that pastor would just bring them, just have them read the creed for them, and they were, they were, that's something we need to think about it. Well, I think the RCIA is one of the major gifts that have come to the Roman Catholic Church after the Council. I mean, when I was first ordained, you know, convert instruction was from here on.

[55:03]

It's not in any way involved with the community. You know, you go to Vandy or County Kitson, or the Methodist Church, Jackson, or something. So the involved... And the RCIA couldn't do marvellous things, except for parishes. But you see that, if you can have a person do something on a Sunday, you know, I really believe this. That's right. You can't. It's sort of like this meat-pocketing thing, you know. You're right. I think that's possible. In other words, somebody likes to do me. I've struggled for years. Bubble on and on and on and on. and finally, well you went for him to the RCIA. No, no, [...] no Well, we feel like that is one of the biggest things that we can learn from teaching and it's good.

[56:12]

It makes me want to learn about neatness. Very good, thank you now. Just so you remember, we got these beautiful habits for neatness.

[56:20]

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