As many of you know, I just went to the East Coast for about two weeks. Can you hear me in the back? I mean, yes, in Japanese. I went to Vermont first to marry Peter Schneider and Jane Rump, and then we went to several other cities. But one part of Zen Center that nobody knew much about except myself is all the people on the East Coast who feel very close to Zen Center. And so I brought Yvonne, because she's the president now. I'd made this kind of trip with Suzuki Roshi, but never before has anybody made it with

[01:10]

me. So I brought Yvonne to introduce her to those people in the East, and so now all parts of Zen Center somebody knows, so I don't have to do it. And after, next week, I guess you know, Sunday and Saturday, I'm going to Japan for about two months to do some things that Suzuki Roshi wanted me to do, and to take our, to pack our house up, which is going to be torn down in Kyoto, to make way for apartment building. I guess half the garden is already gone, but we came back so quickly last fall that we didn't have time to move, actually, out of Kyoto. And after coming back from Japan, I'll come here for the practice period.

[02:18]

The trip to the East Coast was very interesting, because the people there, most of the people I saw are quite different from our students. I mean, the students here, there's no particular or easily definable sociology of why you're all here. Mostly you're here because you like Zazen. I think some of you, because you've read books and other things, but just as many people have read books leave, too. But mostly it's because you like Zazen. But on the East Coast, there's a kind of very clear sociology. And partly it's that Suzuki Roshi, from the beginning, many artists and writers and painters came to Zen Center. And there's some community that Suzuki Roshi felt with artists and with the beat scene

[03:32]

and with several themes in our culture which have led to Zen. As I said to someone today, the Hasidic tradition and the New England transcendentalism, many such things. And in contrast to the West Coast and the East, it's the real establishment of this country, not the presidents of companies, but the owners of companies, or rather the people who wish they no longer owned companies, who would like to get rid of what they have. And every place we went, we would just stop to say hello to somebody, and we'd find they'd gathered this extraordinary group of people who is the largest, one who is the largest taxpayer in Massachusetts, another who's head of the Lincoln Center, financial side, or

[04:36]

General Lindbergh, Charles Lindbergh. Many, many people, you know, I can't want to mention all of them. And what was characteristic of them all is they all felt like they were Buddhists. And Buddhists because they have everything this country, our culture, has to offer. And they don't feel it's enough, you know, or they don't feel right about the way the world is, or their possessions. And of course, ecological thinking is very important now. Lindbergh is completely involved in thinking ecologically, which is very close to Buddhism, almost exactly the same. Also they all related, they all have a sense of some kind of transition the world's going through, this country's going through. And Buddhism goes through, has gone through many steps, kinds of development.

[05:46]

And with Dogen, you have a kind of Dogen Zenji who began, brought this particular way of studying Zen to Japan, and also gave it a kind of sense. He, in many ways, intuitively brought Buddhism back to early Buddhism. But also with Dogen, Zen becomes very cultural in the sense that it doesn't just emphasize your individual practice, it emphasizes practicing your whole culture, that you are your culture. When you practice, you practice your culture. It's interesting, because in some ways this is the beginning step in Buddhist practice. You know, if you know in sutras, they say, sons of good family, something like that.

[06:53]

Good breeding. What this really means is a whole background about that phrase. It means that before you can have the thought of enlightenment, which generally begins the career of a bodhisattva, you have to have a predisposition to this possibility. And in traditional cultures, it meant that you had to have some education and leisure and such things, which only went usually with privilege. In this culture, I think that that kind of intelligence or sophistication is much more widespread. Now, Zen, as a way of knowledge and practice, is not going to be just for an elite, as it has been in other cultures. But this predisposition has a lot to do with where you are in your culture and how you practice your culture and how your culture prepares you for understanding Buddhism. So many of you are actually at that stage of practice.

[08:02]

The kinds of questions you ask, what do I do with evil desires and how do I, well, how can I say, you know, if you hit the bell, you know, or the drum, you hit the drum or bell just right. And if you don't hit it right, or you have some tendency to hit it too loud or something, that's like the beginning stage, you know, when you have problems with being in harmony with things. So a lot of your problems are to do with, are problems I could do with, I was too angry or I was short-sighted in how I treated people or something. But then practice brings us to, prepares us for a critical moment in our life. And maybe each moment is the critical moment, actually.

[09:07]

Just to hit the bell just right. Or if you're like Suzuki Roshi, to know by one glance what to say to a student, how to react to a student. Just to look, to be able to look. So for these people I'm talking about in the East, what they see is a critical moment coming in our culture. And Suzuki Roshi felt that too. As I may have said to you, he felt that America was having quite a kind of crisis or a nervous breakdown. It may get worse and worse. And the people in the East had the same kind of feeling.

[10:13]

They want to do something to help. They were quite moved by what we're doing. They don't see it from the inside, so they don't know how many problems we have. Looks good from the outside, maybe. But part of what we're trying to do is find out not only how to be individually self-sufficient, but also as a community to be self-sufficient. So this is one of the reasons we have Green Gulch, to find out how to grow our own food. But we don't want to be self-sufficient in the sense that we're not dependent on others. That wouldn't be our practice. I know at one point when students wanted to start a bookstore, Roshi got rather angry and said, you should buy from the local bookstore.

[11:16]

He needs the business. So we're not trying to, by growing our own food, become not dependent on others, but rather to have some experience in how to take care of ourselves completely. Suki Roshi even felt that this kind of community may be an island if this country has a very difficult time. Individuals who are together, and the community which is together, both may be a kind of island because your culture must start from within. You must create yourself from within. We must create Zen Center from within. And then it doesn't make so much difference what happens because this kind of creation is imperturbable. Our mind should be imperturbable.

[12:17]

So in practice we should be strict with ourselves in order to prepare for that kind of critical moment. One of Roshi's favorite stories was about Setpo and Ganto. And I think I talked with you about it because Setpo and Ganto are so important in Tang Dynasty Buddhism and in the Buddhist records. So I'll only tell a short version of Setpo. Setpo is an example of hard practice for Zen students.

[13:29]

This was at the end of the Tang Dynasty. And there was quite a lot of persecution of Buddhism at that time. I can't remember the reason, but I think that Buddhism became too rich. You know, Buddhism gets quite successful and ends up owning all the gold and copper and bronze. Then the emperor doesn't have any guns. So he has to raid the temple to get the metal back. I mean, that kind of thing happens. Anyway, there was quite a lot of persecution. And most of the Buddhist sects that were dependent on buildings and scriptures disappeared from China for some time. But Zen, which had created its own culture from within, was not harmed too much and actually

[14:33]

was strengthened. And many people lived in the mountains or in retreats in small groups, you know, practicing. Anyway, the story of Setpo and Ganto is they were crossing a high mountain and they stopped near the summit pass. And Ganto fell asleep right away, but Setpo couldn't. He kept sitting up by the fire. Finally, Ganto woke up and said, well, what is the matter? And Setpo said, I've visited Tozan nine times and I've done this and that. I was enlightened under so-and-so, et cetera. And still, something in my mind is not clear.

[15:34]

I'm very depressed. And Ganto said, you can't depend on things from outside of you or what other people say. It has to come from... You have to let your own nature do it. Generally, we know ourselves objectively, but not subjectively. Anyway, whatever Ganto said to him supposedly enlightened Setpo at that time. And this kind of practice over and over again was what Suzuki Roshi emphasized. And this experience from Tang Dynasty, which was a very long time ago, until quite recently, for instance, this practice continues.

[16:38]

Suzuki Roshi's teacher and master, Kichizawa Roshi's teacher. I can't remember his name, but anyway. He was going from his temple over Hakone Mountain, I think, which is quite a difficult mountain to cross over on the Tokaido Road. And he came to this temple where he asked to stay for the night at Ohara or Odara. I can't remember. This story is from 1962, so I don't know. Anyway, he went in and he asked for lodging. And he was quite a vigorous young man. And this man at this temple, which we'll say at Ohara, saw this young man and some... he acknowledged him.

[17:48]

You know? You know, there's... After this stage of what your disposition is, or breeding, or preparation, there are three important factors which begin knowledge of bodhisattva's career. One is the thought of enlightenment. The second is vows. And the third is a prediction that you'll achieve enlightenment. The thought of enlightenment, bodhicitta, has many meanings. But somehow it comes about when you see somebody like Suzuki Roshi, maybe. And then you take vows and make that firm. That's quite a long process, actually.

[18:52]

And at some point you're acknowledged. Anyway, this monk, this teacher at this temple, saw him and had some feeling about him. So he invited him upstairs. And after he'd gone upstairs, he took the ladder away and said, you just stay there and I'll give you everything you need. And I guess he kept him up there several months. And he practiced zazen upstairs. And this man was so strict at this temple where he'd happened to take lodging, that nobody stayed with him more than a few months. But this man, Kichi Zawa Roshi's teacher, stayed for many years. And then afterwards, walked.

[19:59]

Even after he left and had his own temple. He would walk 25 miles over the mountain to see him. And 25 miles back. Twice a month or something. Anyway, he never gave me an opportunity to practice like that. I always drive to test. But we used to talk about having a path. Maybe we should do that. But to create hardship is not the point. Actually, if you're strict with yourself, there's enough hardship. Coming back from the east coast where...

[21:56]

Suzuki Roshi used to say that Avalokiteśvara has a thousand arms. And for a thief, he appears as a thief. For a sailor, he appears as a sailor. For a businessman, he appears as a businessman. So when you're seeing people like that, you can't always be sitting very straight and calm. It makes people nervous. So if it slouches, you have to slouch. And if people wear suits, you have to wear suits. You don't have to. You can wear robes. Anyway, but I make that kind of transition. It's okay.

[23:01]

It's a relief to be back here where I don't have to do that. We have a wonderful place to practice here. Tassajara in San Francisco. I felt that very clearly when I came back from being in the east. Tassajara in San Francisco

[24:13]

Tassajara in San Francisco There are many stories about seeing yourself subjectively, not objectively. So somebody says, Who are you? And someone answers, Just the person you see in front of you. So the teacher says, It's like they think of donkey as a horse's head or donkey or something like that. Just as if it was an object. Because we don't know ourselves subjectively.

[25:14]

Anyway, our problems are mostly come from the fact that we know only part of ourself. Tassajara in San Francisco Those of you who aren't used to sitting this way, I hope it's not too difficult for you. Please, if it gets very painful, please move your legs or leave or whatever is comfortable for you. Tassajara in San Francisco Do you have any questions, anything you'd like to talk about?

[26:38]

Anything? I think that I've been fine, but I'm still not sure about something being so fine. I still feel like something is good somehow. Like something is okay, but something is somehow the bad guy. Am I right? I thought this feeling would go away and it might, but it's just painful. But it seems like quite a while. I don't know what to do about it. Do you have any suggestion? For myself? Yeah. Yeah, present some. Well, you choose. Present some, some suggestion. It seems like the opposite could go well then.

[28:03]

Don't they? It doesn't seem like they do. I think they do. In a dental? Uh-huh. Where? I don't know. Well, anyway, the officers do what is asked of them. But wait until you're an officer. If I'm not going to go to prison, what am I supposed to do? Why, why, what, what? I don't understand. What practice is for? If it ends when you get bigger? Well...

[29:14]

I don't think practice ends for the officers when it gets busy. Though it's true that because then centers... There aren't enough people to do all the work. So the people who do have to do the work are rather busy. What also happens is the very people who are needed, who are most capable, are the ones who end up doing most of the work. It used to be much worse, you know. It used to be the Zen Center had only two or three people who could do the work. And everyone else were new students, mostly struggling with their problems. And a big problem for Zen Center is that as soon as you get a little bit free of your problems and can do some work and aren't always upset or insecure or whatever, then you get tons of work piled on you. And it will only be solved when more and more people can share the work, you know.

[30:18]

Zen Center is a pretty complicated place and I... As you, I think maybe I've told you, had many reservations about coming back here, partly because of the size of Zen Center. But Suzuki Roshi felt it should continue as it is. So we're trying. It might be better in some ways if it were several small groups. But there's no way to do that at present. Yeah? You said, you know, giving it your... You said that this stage... This stage...

[31:31]

Well, in traditional Buddhism, the traditional explanation is there are, you know, if you read the sutras, they say something like when sons and daughters of good family do such and such. That actually, those kind of phrases like bearing the right shoulder refer to quite a... There's sort of a compensation of something. And all that means is the same as what Suzuki Roshi said, that when students come to Zen Center, he has to have students who had lots of preparation before they started practicing Buddhism. And that kind of practice is finding your own way to survive in your culture. And traditionally, they thought that

[32:35]

if you weren't quite an accomplished person, you couldn't start practicing Buddhism. But Tantrism and Zen don't feel that. You know, they used to say if you had, you know, great problems, you could never practice Buddhism. But Tantrism and Zen think that if you have... that people with great problems can also practice Buddhism. So, most of... partly what I was referring to is that yesterday I talked to San Francisco about several things. But one thing that came up was we have, Suzuki Roshi said, we have limitless problems because we have limitless desires. But usually... So, usually you think, if I get rid of the desires, then I'll have no desires

[33:38]

and my Buddha nature will be uncovered. Something like that. But what we mean by Buddha nature isn't some nature or seed or... It's just what appears each moment. I can't... It's not possible to explain what I mean by Buddha nature. But many questions then came from the people there about desires, what to do about desires. Well, Zen practice is usually, you know, to enter into desires. Your... You know, your Buddha nature may be... We call it emptiness or we call it Buddha. Enlightenment. We can call it evil desires or ignorance. But that kind of practice, most people don't understand because they're involved with... They have some problem and it causes somebody else suffering

[34:39]

and they want to get rid of their evil desires. Well, the stage of trying to get rid of your evil desires is that stage, that beginning stage when you're trying to hit the drum, right? Do you understand what I mean now? Or is that too complicated? Yeah? I don't understand what you mean by... I don't know myself. What is not knowing myself? Not knowing... Well... It's like when I was at Lama Foundation in...

[35:55]

New Mexico. It's a commune that's in New Mexico which has both practice and people living there. And they... I sat with them for a couple of days and they want to know why we sit the way we do. And it's pretty difficult to explain why we sit the way we do. So the first... Firstly, you know, you can say we sit this way physically but most of us perceive our physical body only. So I had to say there are many bodies which sit, Satsang. So, because you don't know all the bodies... But actually there aren't many bodies, there's just this body. But we're only aware of such a small part of it and we're concerned with how we look and feel and what other people think of us.

[36:59]

That's knowing ourselves objectively. When you know yourself subjectively you don't have any of that kind of consideration. Do you see what I mean? We think that this posture is some physical... But that's, you know... If you know your body thoroughly this posture is... not rigid at all. It's the most comfortable and open, relaxed posture. Yeah? Buddhist practice helps you to understand yourself better subjectively. It's a... I understand. It's a... It's interesting to speak here because some of you don't know much about Buddhism

[38:02]

and you're just visiting and some of you have practiced quite a while most of you are in fact newer students than the students in the city. But you're practicing here at sort of half a monastery now. It's such a... hard to... speak directly to that because supposedly most people here know that already. But anyway... There's many ways of saying so that... we sit... we sit this way because normally we only know ourselves objectively. Okay? How we think what thoughts we have what kind of feelings we have but we don't know who we are between thoughts. We don't know who we are if we didn't have those products so far. So the only way... the shortcut anyway kind of shortcut

[39:03]

is to just sit to... as long as you're taking activity your activity... if you're running for a bus you can't solve a calculus problem so easily. What kind of physical posture you take affects you. And whatever you do you are what you're doing. So... how to... find out what you are when you're doing as little as possible in a way. You know, something like that. So who are you if you're not thinking? Between thoughts. So... to find out what we are if we're not taking some particular form we take this posture. But actually this posture or lying flat on our back are both nearly the same but if you lie flat on your back you tend to fall asleep. But this posture all your organs and body is quite

[40:05]

unrestricted. As soon as you bend like this you squash your stomach. If you squash your stomach you squash the older part of your brain which affects your emotions and things like that. Stomach. Why is there a precept against drinking? Right. Well... I like... I can experience it both in my life but I still want to drink a lot. And I want someone to tell me a good reason why I should. Um... But if you... aren't you telling yourself you shouldn't then?

[41:09]

Then why don't you have the resolve to do it? Uh... I don't feel like it's gotten desperate enough. I mean... Well... Um... Anyway, that's like the... you have the idea thought of enlightenment and then you have the vows. So you have... Usually if you're practicing you know what to do. But the problem is doing it. You know, but... you just make some resolution and do it. That's all. But uh... If you practice Zazen long enough and you're actually practicing Zazen it becomes rather unpleasant to drink.

[42:10]

It's sort of a nuisance, you know. I don't know, it's just sort of a nuisance. And uh... But the beginning practice is you don't do anything which alters you. You know, the precept one is do not kill, you know. Which means do not kill yourself. Don't do things which make you dead. And uh... The second is do not take what is not given. All of these are based on interdependency. And uh... I guess it's the third which is about often translated do not drink. But actually it means do not... It's usually used to translate it do not sell Buddhism. Do not intoxicate people with Buddhism. But I guess it's most accurate that you could say something like it means do not do anything that alters you, your mind or body,

[43:13]

or another's mind or body. So particularly in Zen practice we have neutral food, not much uh... uh... not too colorful food, you know. In the first stage of practice which is form is emptiness. That stage of practice. We had some... We're strict with ourselves so we know what it is to look without getting caught. And uh... So you want to know what you are without adding anything. Without adding some movement. Without adding thinking. Without adding alcohol or drugs or dope, sex. But that's called form is emptiness practice. But uh... Zen... For Zen we usually say that if you sit all the precepts are there. So if you sit

[44:14]

your... your subjective experience of yourself is such that you wouldn't want to take a drink. You feel so, you know, quite good actually. So to add something so crude as alcohol but uh... until you know that have a sense of that calmness of your mind. Then you... Drinking is rather nice, you know. Someone said to me one of those people in the east said to me Is Zazen anything like the first flush of a drink? Maybe it is, I don't know. Yeah. How do we make decisions from moment to moment like whether to talk or remain silent or to go for a walk or to sit under a cushion or to read a book

[45:16]

or to do yoga or to go swimming and just maybe three things arise almost at once. Yeah, I understand. There really aren't actually there aren't choices. There's only one thing that should be done usually. But uh... It's hard to find out that. But uh... When you... I can say when you know yourself subjectively you don't have problems with making decisions because you don't think about what to do. The alarm clock rings in the morning and you just get up. You don't think

[46:18]

should I get up or should I not get up? Should I go swimming or shouldn't I go swimming? Yes. That's why we have this kind of... You know, it's... Practice particularly at Tassajara though it's difficult during the summer should be very strict. There should be no missing Zazen. No... I don't know what to say because I feel... You know, I think if you start Zazen you should for five years you know, if you're practicing for five years you shouldn't miss Zazen for five years. That's all. And if the alarm clock rings you get up. That's all. And at first it's rather difficult

[47:19]

but after a while when you have that calmness or when you know yourself subjectively and objectively whatever you do you feel comfortable in any kind of circumstance. So there isn't any even any need to do anything anymore because how can you go anywhere because you're already everywhere. But there's no way to find out what we mean by that unless you're strict with yourself. So here we create a situation which isn't very strict actually at which you know, we get up and we practice a certain way. But it takes I mean Zen practice can be a kind of therapy which clears your mind you know makes you feel better. Or it can be actual practice. Actual practice means you have to be very strict with yourself for I'm sorry to say at least probably ten years maybe five years.

[48:20]

So but within that strictness you must be relaxed as in our posture we should be relaxed. So I think when you're practicing Zen you know what you should do. Then you should find the resolution to do it. But exactly how to make a decision you know there's some process you can actually depending on the decision how to bring your whole mind and body into the decision making process if it's a big decision. But in little things I mean if you want to go swimming go swimming. Do whatever if you can do you know something simple like you can go swimming or you can go talk with a friend. Do one of them. Don't change your mind. Even if it's a mistake and you're half way to the swimming pool and you say I'd rather talk to my friend just go jump in the pool. I mean that

[49:25]

kind of thing whatever you do just do it. It's necessary. If you then you go talk to your friend and you talk to your friend if you miss you say boy is it hot I should have gone in the pool. Then your life is you know like that. It's better to make a mistake and just do it. To do that. And I think first of all you have to have a hierarchy of values. And the top has to be practice. But practice includes responsibility to your family and your children. So whatever your responsibilities are you have to do them. But you see the difficulty with that kind of discussion is

[50:27]

I don't know you well enough to know exactly what your situation is. But or how you understand what I mean how to explain what I mean to you. But let me just talk about something I talked about with somebody else the other day is they want Zen Center to become a place where families and children can practice and that if you have to watch the children you miss Zazen. And if you what what Zen Center should do is it should change and become a kind of place which allows residence for people. But this would be sacrificing practice is the main thing. But it's possible to go to a place to have a village or a group of people who practice Buddhism who the main consideration is

[51:30]

main considerations are the community. And if you practice that's good too it helps the community. But mainly you're concerned with how you own the land and who takes care of the houses and how the children are taken care of, etc. Now in your own life you have to find some balance for that. But as much as possible if you understand that you can't really lead your life or bring up your child unless there is your larger sense of practice. If you have that larger sense then that practice will be manifested in what you do even if it's only taking care of your child. But if your horizon is limited to your child or your family then you can't have that kind of practice. But if your horizon includes everybody and you practice with that sense you don't even have to do Zazen. Zazen is a good help. I think it's getting late

[52:33]

but I think... Yeah? I was saying that the difference between practice and Zazen is that there is this fear that children are being engaged in practices of restriction so that they don't get Zazen. But it seems that it seems that you can learn more fastly by going to places where you restrict yourself to the most vascular product that has already come. Okay, when you're quite free of it you know that fascination is the problem you know one of the problems. When you're quite free of that you know then you can try the next stage of practice in which you practice with form with not restricting yourself. Yeah? I was wondering

[53:56]

comment on the fact that there is no restriction in the practice I mean you can see that there is no condition for that that there was no any natural restriction but there was something that was caused by the restriction and it wouldn't be in my case a real restriction in my practice you know and maybe it's just maybe there wasn't so much a conscious effort but sometimes it's different Yeah well later practice becomes Zazen becomes just the expression of your the deepest expression of your nature you don't do it for practice like in the usual sense but you do it just because it's the deepest way to express to feel your whole to be your whole

[54:57]

being but practice well anyway I ok ok well

[56:15]

we have to know our own ecology before we can help others we have to know ourselves you know to say again subjectively then the whole world is familiar so you know it's easy to get caught up in in and maybe if I wasn't here at Zen Center I'd be doing something else but there are many kinds of distractions like that the Vietnam War or ecology if we're going to practice we have to make at some point be strict with ourselves and even something so similar to Buddhism as ecology and so important when you know it may be our disaster if those problems aren't solved still we're strict with ourselves doesn't mean we're not contributing in some way I mean here is

[57:17]

one of the main ecologists in the world Lindberg was trying to do a great deal wanting to come to Buddhism so he's very interested in having us tell him how he can think more deeply about the problem

[57:33]

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