The answer has profound and wondrous charm. It is rarely met with, even a hundred thousand million kelpas. Now I can see and hear it, accept and maintain it. May I unfold the meaning of the Torah's truth. Good morning, everyone. Welcome. Good morning.

[01:02]

So I want to celebrate an anniversary, a personal anniversary this morning. Tuesday will be my 40th year of doing Everyday Zazen. So I had my first Zazen instruction 40 years ago, Tuesday. So I want to talk about, well, maybe I missed one or maybe two dozen days in those years. Anyway, I want to talk about this morning why I love Zazen, which actually is what I always talk about in some way or other. That's my job is just to encourage everyone to practice and to do this Zazen practice that we do here. There's a cushion over there if you prefer to sit on the cushion. Okay, that's fine. So, I first had Zazen instruction with my first teacher, Reverend Kondo Nakajima at the New York Zen Center.

[02:09]

January 20th. It was a Monday, 1975. I was still 24 years old. Nakajima Sensei was a very good Japanese Soto Zen priest. His picture is on the altar, and I'll say more about him later. That same week, I think he gave talks Wednesday evening. They had programs Monday through Friday evening. And I first heard Dharma talk about Dogen that same week. So for me, and he talked about Dogen's essay, One Bright Pearl, the entire universe is one bright pearl. So I'll talk more about that tomorrow evening. But for me, all this time, Zazen and Dogen have kind of gone together and I ended up translating some of Dogen and writing about Dogen. But sitting Zazen every day through that. So I knew the first time I had Zazen instruction that that was it for me.

[03:17]

I just, it was just an instant hit. And, you know, there are other people I've talked to who felt that way, but we each have our own particular rhythms of Zazen. So it's very individual, and I'm going to talk some about my own individual kind of path to practice. But anyway, what I liked about Zazen immediately, Well, the sense of wholeness, which I talk about sometimes, just that everything is right here now, your whole life, on your cushion or chair right now. So I don't know that I could have articulated it this way back then, but I had this instant sense of total connectedness with everything. this sense of wonder and of space and spaciousness that's part of this just sitting.

[04:21]

So Dogen talks about sentient beings, wholeness, Buddha nature. This quality of awakening, of caring and awareness, Whether or not we think that or think about it is part of or is maybe at the heart of what happens when we actually stop and sit down and be present and be upright and attend to our posture and breath and just pay attention. When we sit, we are present with everything. Everything in your life. all of the joys in your life, all the cares in your life, all the problems, regrets, everything is right there. So just being able to sit upright and be present, like Buddha, sitting in the center of a meditation hall, just each of us in our own way, to be upright and present.

[05:37]

There is this possibility, this awareness, fullness. Somehow, all of our interests and problems and there's a kind of integration that happens. And this happens, of course, not just instantly, but over years of practice. So again, I want to talk about Zazen today, but I'll talk about it in terms of my own story. But part of it was that I liked, you know, I liked the old Zen stories. I read some of the old Zen stories and they're very dramatic and sometimes, you know, the monk has some awakening or enlightenment or, you know, they seemed very mysterious and yet something about them was really Cool. But yet there was this thing, Zazen, that people could actually do physically.

[06:39]

And this is what they all did. All those old guys, mostly it's guys. There were all these women, of course. But they did this practice of Zazen. And another part of this wholeness is to just witness things. that this wasn't a practice of our usual way of being in the world, of manipulating things to get what we want. This is our usual... This is everything else we do in the world. We're manipulating ourselves, we're manipulating things or people out there, so-called. And Zazen is not like that. It's just, you know, here we are. Here you are, on your Kushner chair, just present, as you are. And that's okay. So, you know, I feel like somehow I felt all of that the first time I sat.

[07:42]

And again, I couldn't have articulated that. But that's, you know, it just hit me. So I want to talk about my own background that helped me be ready for that first Zazen instruction. And again, each of us has our own context for doing this practice and our own rhythm of doing this practice. You know, I've been sitting every day. Some people sit a few times a week. Some people sit and then they lose interest and go away, and then they come back. And that's fine, too. It's not that there's one right way or one right approach. It's very particular to you. Each of you has your own way of being Buddha. I can't tell you how to be Buddha. And yet, Zazen kind of grows this. So in my case, when I had that first Zazen instruction, it was a very good time in my life.

[08:45]

I know often people come to spiritual practice or Zazen in some time of loss or confusion or distress. And some of you have done that. But it happened to be that I was... You know, it's a good time in my life. I was living on the Upper West Side in Manhattan, a walking distance from the New York Zen Center on 81st Street. I was happily married. I had a good job. I was a documentary film editor, which back then meant doing lots of television news, because there weren't that many documentaries like there are now. But I really enjoyed my work, and I was pretty decently paid. and I just enjoyed putting together the visual flow, even of television news stories. I was in fairly good shape at the time, but I was ready for Zazen.

[09:51]

Previously in my mid-teens, maybe 13 to 17, was a period of really intense questioning for me. and I read a lot of existentialist stuff, Dostoevsky, Kafka, and others, I really had this intense desire or need to do something meaningful. And I didn't see anything in the world worth doing. It was just, but there had to be something. And I think that's sort of akin to our situation now, where there's so much that's wrong in the world, and there's so much you know, that it's easy to feel overwhelmed and like there's nothing we can do. And, but since I started sitting saws, I don't feel that. I feel like there are things we can do. So, you know, during this period of questioning, later I was, this was the mid-60s, and I started working against the Vietnam War and for peace, and I was,

[10:55]

I became a pacifist and I helped in high school in Pittsburgh where I lived. I helped organize the first large anti-Vietnam War demonstration there. So that gave me some sense of, I don't know, something worth doing. And that continued later into college, working at Peace, but also in college I did this fairly intensive committed study of the psychedelic experience. So, in some ways I see that now as trying to explore deeper realities or inner realities. And, you know, I just did that for a couple of years, but I would say that Well, first of all, all these different interests and concerns somehow fit together in Zazen when I started Zazen. But for the first maybe 10 years of practice, partly because of that background, I was kind of a Sesshin junkie.

[11:58]

I really, you know, I thought that what was really important was going to Sesshins and doing, you know, that that was what was really important and getting something. You know, I read these books about how the point of sitting was to get enlightenment or something like that. And eventually I got over that and now I see that it can be helpful to do whole day sittings or longer sittings, but what's really important is sustainable practice, sustaining attention, sustaining awareness, sustaining being upright in one's life, regular practice. It's not about getting high. You know, you can have wonderful experiences in Zazen, but that's not really the point. So my own background that led me to go and have Zazen instruction with Nakajima Sensei, Well, before that, just talking about sesshins, my first sesshin with Nakajima Sensei, I thought I had to have some fancy experience.

[13:11]

And the second night, I sat up all night with a couple of my buddies from the zendo there. And it was really wonderful. But by the next morning, During the Dharma talk, I just kind of, or maybe before the Dharma talk, I just kind of dissolved into this ball of pain. And I just, I went to Nakajima Sensei. And I said, I can't do this. I have to leave. And... He said something like, well, you can leave if you want, but you might regret it later. Why don't you just stick around? So I did. And that was wonderful. And I gave up trying to, at least for that week, trying to get anything. I just wanted to get through it. So back then, there wasn't much about Zen.

[14:18]

There weren't many books. I'd read A Kerouac's Dharma Bumps about Gary Snyder. And that was very inspiring. And Gary Snyder continues to be very inspiring. And I think Zen Flesh, Zen Bones was around then by Paul Rebs. That's a good book, still a good book. Has lots of good little Zen stories in it. And I had taken a college course in Eastern religion. And actually, four years before my Baxter vs. Zazen instruction, I was camping for the summer in the mountains in Colorado, and I tried to sit, and somehow the book I'd read about Zazen, I kind of thought that, I've told this story before, that you're supposed to keep your eyes open in our practice, right? But I thought that when I couldn't blink. So after a few minutes, water was pouring out of my eyes. I said, oh, I can't do this. But as it happened, that fall, I was out of school.

[15:21]

And I had a chance to visit Japan. My parents were living in Tokyo. My dad was on sabbatical. And his grant paid for me to go there. And so I went without any real expectation or anything. But I ended up going down to Kyoto and Nara and spent three months just going around to Buddhist temples there. blown away by the wonderful Buddhist sculptures, the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and the demons, and also the Zen guardians. I just was totally amazed by all that stuff, but I felt there wasn't any way for me to be part of that. I guess Zuki Roshi was around in San Francisco then, but I didn't really know that. So I came back to America, back to college, and anyway, four years later, somebody mentioned that Nakajima Sensei was, this New York Zen Center was there, and I went. Anyway, very few people know about him, so I wanted to say a little bit about him. He retired and closed the Zen Center and moved to New Jersey in the mid or late 80s.

[16:24]

But I'm still in touch. My friends Jack and David live in New York. I practice with them. They practice throughout the time. And I know several others who started practicing with him. But in recent years, I wasn't sure where he was. And so, Actually, Tyler, who some of you know, is one of our distant students, helped me do some research and I located and spoke to one of his sons. So Nakajima Sensei is now 88 and he's in the late stages of Alzheimer's, basically, almost a memory. But still, I was glad to tell his son how important he was for me and for many others. So, a little bit about that Zendo where I practiced for three and a half years before I moved to California.

[17:28]

It was on the Upper West Side. Actually, the Zendo itself was two rooms, both of them smaller than this room, but together maybe about the same size or a little bit larger than this room. He had Zazen every evening, Monday through Friday, in a Sunday morning sitting. Later on, David and I managed to persuade him to have two mornings. We actually opened Zen Dojo and did two mornings a week. He didn't, I wasn't there, but he would do two sessions a year, and again, monthly sitting, and then a Dharma talk, Sazen instruction one evening, Dharma talk one evening, and Doksan one evening. Anyway, maybe it sounds annoying. He lived upstairs with his wife and two sons in an apartment building. The Zender was on the first floor. And he was really interesting.

[18:34]

He was totally uncharismatic. Very steady. He was just there, eating, which was totally amazing to me. His English was terrible. He worked downtown, I think for Mitsui, for some Japanese company, so he spoke Japanese all the time. He didn't have much practice with English. I started transcribing his talks so I learned to understand him. One morning I saw him walk, you can see in the picture he had a short haircut, not a shaved head. He wore Karamo and Zendo and Raksu, I never saw him wear Okesa. I received lay ordination from him in December 75. So he did a lot of lay ordinations but he never talked about ordaining any priests. So I started to say, I noticed, I saw him one time going to work in the morning, he was this Japanese guy with a business suit, and you wouldn't even, you wouldn't recognize him, you wouldn't see him, you wouldn't see him even, he was like totally this anonymous person.

[19:48]

And New York Zen Center was kind of like that, it stayed open for, I don't know when he started exactly, but he closed in the mid-80s, as I said. Part of Zazen, I was talking about the positive side of Zazen when I was talking about this sense of wholeness, but part of Zazen, and what's really most difficult for a lot of people about Zazen, is that along with everything else, as I said, we face everything in this meditation. including all of our habits and our patterns of reaction and all the stuff about ourselves that we don't like. But a few months after, so in terms of habits, a few months after I started, maybe a couple months after I started going to the Zen Dojo most evenings, or many evenings a week, I quit smoking.

[20:52]

I've been smoking for seven and a half years, I think, about a pack and a half a day, and I really enjoyed it. That was back when smoking wasn't really unpopular or not socially cool or whatever. Apologies to any of you who smoke, it's fine, but we all have our habits. I'd been in the Zendo, I'd gotten there early, and I'd been there for the two periods. So it had been almost a few hours, and of course I hadn't smoked while I was sitting in the Zendo. It didn't have ashtrays by the cushions. And so I came out, and of course it was time to light up a cigarette, and I realized I'd been following my breath, which is what we do in Zaza. And I realized I didn't want to, and I didn't want to do that anymore. And I didn't. And I knew that I wouldn't when the next evening we went out to dinner with my in-laws in downtown and after dinner everybody lit up a cigarette.

[22:01]

Everybody at the table. That was my favorite time to smoke a cigarette. But I didn't, and that's when I knew that I, and I haven't since. So that's a silly little story about, you know, one habit, although, you know, there's a, there's the, there is the addictive quality. It's not that Zazen gets rid of all of our habits. We do have a meditation and recovery group Tuesday evenings. Thank you, Angie. So part of meditation can be to work on our habits. But then we have these very deeply ingrained habits. And I don't think it's impossible that we could just cut through all of them. But anyway, some things we can just drop away. So, as I said, I practiced for three and a half years with Nakashima Sensei before I moved to San Francisco. My first wife got into law school in San Francisco.

[23:05]

At that point, I knew about San Francisco Zen Center and I'd read Zen Mind Beginners many times. I had this idea that it might be good to have an American teacher rather than a Japanese teacher. So we moved to San Francisco. The first week at San Francisco Zen Center, I met Reb, who became my teacher and started taking classes with him weekly. And he was kind of my teacher. Well, he was my teacher for 22 years until my transmission in 2000, since I'm being autobiographical this morning. I had other teachers, Baker Rush, he was also my teacher for a while, and one of the things that was nice about San Francisco Symphony was that there were a number of other people you could talk with. So, we have Eishin and Yozan in our sangha now, who I encourage you all to have practice discussion with, as well as it's possible to come and have dokusan interview with me.

[24:06]

So you can email info at ancientdragon.org if you're interested in that. But anyway, through all that time, Reb became my teacher, even when I went to and lived in Kyoto for two years. And I did practice with a number of other teachers, including Sho Haku, who I've translated. But I wasn't looking for a teacher. You know, Rev was my teacher. But I still appreciate Nakajima Sensei very much. And, you know, considering all that training, living at San Francisco Zen Center, City Center, and living at Green Gulch, and living at Tassajara, and practicing it with a number of teachers in Japan. Obviously, what we do here at Ancient Dragons Zen Gate is informed by those forums and my training there. But in many ways, this is more like the New York Zen Center or Nakajima Zen Center.

[25:07]

So we're doing this challenging thing. to have a non-residential urban lay practice center to offer satsang and practice and dharma in various ways. And so anybody can come here and get meditation instruction and come sit with us on a regular schedule. And, you know, this is challenging what we're doing. And this depends on the presence and support of all of you, actually, everybody who's here. This morning makes this talk what it is. And many, many people work very diligently, even though they have families and other full-time jobs, to make Ancient Dragon Zen Gate work.

[26:14]

And this is challenging. How do we offer Zazen here in Chicago? This is a question that numbers of you have expressed concern and question about. And it was challenging in New York City, too. So in some ways, nothing ever happened. at the New York Zen Center. Nakajima never ordained any priests. They had regular practice. They just had regular practice. And a lot of people, I found out later, had practiced with him and started their practice with him. But New York is huge and immense and a very busy place. I loved living there when I was in my 20s. I don't know that I could anymore. I like to visit it. Chicago maybe isn't quite as, I don't know, how does Chicago compare to New York? Well, you know, Chicago's a pretty big city.

[27:19]

And we have also a group down at Hyde Park that years on leads Wednesday afternoon. Anyway, but I just, you know, thinking about this anniversary and just, again, enjoying Zaza and I appreciate, you know, how what we do is in lots of ways patterned after how I started at the New York Zen Center. So, Zazen. Doing Zazen for all this time. Have I learned anything? Has it helped? Yes and no. Shohakna's teacher Uchiyan Roshi talks about Zazen being good for nothing. And Sugi Roshi used to talk about non-gaining attitude. It's not that we don't get anything, actually, and it's not that it's meaningless or purposeless to do this, but whatever we think we're going to get from Zazen isn't it.

[28:23]

So if you have some idea about enlightenment or whatever else, that's not what happens. Zazen has its own integrity. its own dignity, its own organic, alchemical way of working on us. It's not that we do Zazen. Zazen does us. And it does have a transformative function. And so I know that about my own life and I know that about many people who practice with me and many people in this room. that I've seen something happen over some time. Thanks to just, I don't know, thanks to, anyway, maybe it's just coincidental that they've been sitting with us. But there's something I deeply trust about this practice. So whatever problems we each have,

[29:28]

whatever difficulties there are in the world, just to do this practice regularly, to be willing to put aside whatever we think we have to be busy with, whatever's on our to-do list, and just stop. And, you know, please do this at home in your spare time. It won't hurt you. And I will add that in terms of sitting every day for 40 years, in addition to the dozen or two days I miss, some days it's 15 minutes or even a little less. I forget about it sometimes. This happens. I don't do it in the morning always. And by mid-afternoon I feel, oh my God, I haven't sat so long today. But there's something about being willing to put aside whatever you think you need to do and just stop and sit and face the wall in a chair or a cushion, however, you know, in whatever way and just pay attention and breathe and enjoy being present, being aware.

[30:46]

So that's why we're here, is to help people satsang. And thank you very much for listening. Any comments or questions or responses, please feel free. Jeremy. So I have two questions. Good. Back to back. Okay. Has your posture changed and how, if so, how has your posture changed over That's a really interesting question. Recently I realized, and maybe you've all seen this, that I have tended to lean to the right, and I've been working at it. Part of my practice now is to try. And when I walk during all-day sittings, I'll sometimes walk around and make postural suggestions. They're not corrections, but they're just kind of, I'll touch places on your back or maybe adjust you slightly. Because upright is, as an idea, we're not upright.

[31:56]

We all have curved spines in various ways. So what does it mean to sit upright for you? We each have our own way of sitting. But part of the practice is to pay attention to that. So yeah, I think at times during that time I've leaned one way or another and part of the practice is to pay attention to that. And so, you know, this might feel like upright to me, but actually I think it's probably more like this. So you had another question? There was this. Oh, yeah. Okay. Other questions or responses or testimonies? Michael? You started in New York, and here we are in Chicago. They're obviously big places. They're large places. I've found, being here in Chicago, that you can find almost anything that you want, including this place. It's not available everywhere.

[33:02]

Yeah. Could you talk a little bit about the difference between sitting in a group with other people and sitting on your own, which is something that you will have to do if you're not in a place like Chicago or New York. Good. Very good question. Very important question. So the importance of Sangha, the importance of sitting with others. And as I said, in my own case, I tried to sit on my own before I met Nakajima Sensei and had some weird idea that prevented me from doing that. Since I started practicing, though, there are Zen or other meditation centers, I think in every state in the lower 48, not to mention Alaska and Hawaii, there are many, many places now. But it's true, in some places, it's less available. So I think there also, when I started, there were this many books about Zen, and now there

[34:10]

you know, libraries in English. I've contributed to that, all those extra words. But it does help to sit with a group. And even if you're not in a place where you don't have a group and there are people who have been here who have had that situation, if you can occasionally go to sit with a group. So you might have experienced if you're sitting on your own, it's one thing, but when you come and sit with a group, even if there's no Dharma talk, even if there's no, you don't say anything, I mean, you can come here and sit in. You don't have to speak to anybody. It's okay. We have tea and cookies after as a chance to socialize. But it's okay to just come and sit with us and leave. But even doing that, when you sit, and you may have noticed, sitting together as we just did in this room, there's a kind of, I would say, a kind of attunement that happens.

[35:13]

So it's possible if you're just sitting on your own to kind of get off in various ways and have various ideas about what you're doing. And just to sit in a group, something, I can't explain how this works, but there's some energy that is helpful in terms of that. So I would encourage whoever might be listening to this to go and sit with a group at some point. And there are many, many more centers now. And there are many more good instruction available, reading or audio or whatever. I remember at San Francisco Zen Center, though, there were people who had never sat on their own who had come to San Francisco Zen Center and were living there. And I thought that was also a little problematic. that it's good to be able to sit at home on your own, even 15 minutes. So the other thing is, I had the good fortune to live in Tassajara for a few years, and also in a monastery in Japan.

[36:26]

So I have had the experience of sitting outside a big city. And it's possible. It's possible to sit somewhere where there's not lots of people and buildings. Just to add that. Yeah, part of the teaching is Sangha and being together in community. Aisha? I just wanted to add to that that sometimes a group will form with people just on its own. Before Thay Yen was here and before there was something called Ancient Dragon, or six people who had knew each other and have been in other different dark places and not felt a huge affinity and they all started sitting together one day a week in someone's dining room. And that just, sometimes things just sort of start organically. It doesn't require, with all due respect, having a teacher right there. So if you are in a time in your life where you're living in a place where there aren't groups around you.

[37:28]

Maybe it's possible to find other people who would want to sit together and read something together. Yes. Yes, thank you. Even if it doesn't take place every week. Right. Thank you. Yes. And that's actually, in some ways, a lot of what Zen, or Shoto Zen anyway, all Zen is now in America, is small groups just sitting together. So I want to acknowledge that Aisha, Nancy, and Kathy are two of our founding members who were there back then. somehow still here. Kathy. Thank you very much for that talk. It's nice to hear other people's paths. And what went through my mind as you were talking was that there was also a way that you were responding to your own curiosity, to what spoke to you, like when you said you got to Green Bulch and that there were multiple people that you could talk to You were getting different things from different people, even though you had a primary teacher.

[38:29]

And I think that is something I have to be aware of. Sometimes I feel like I get so negatively hooked into the shoulds of this that it is hard for me to be aware of the things that are more spontaneous and inspiring. Or connecting with friends who support this. I feel like taking that seriously is also part of this. Yeah, so, you know, we will chant the Bodhisattva vows at the end of this, one of which is, Dharma gates are bound, so I've got to enter them. So everything in our life is an opportunity to see reality, to feel the teaching, to be informed. When we orient ourselves that way, when we turn towards awakening, turn towards Buddha, many things can be helpful. And so, you know, I think it is helpful to, if you've been sitting for a while, to check things out with a teacher at some point.

[39:32]

But it's not necessary to always be doing that. You know, it's also, again, it's very, very individual. Each person's path, as you were saying, Cathy, is different. So, you know, I thought about giving this talk and I didn't want to discourage anybody who doesn't have 40 years left to sit Zazen, you know. It's, you know, each of us, I'm just telling you what happened to me. Each of us has our own way of meeting the practice, of finding our seat, of finding our way to be whole and wholesome in the world, and to help things in the world, to be helpful, which is really what this is about. But we also have to find that in ourselves and be kind to ourselves too. Thank you, I really appreciated that talk. My favorite Dharma talks are the ones that are personal. I just wanted to say, over those 40 years, things have changed so much in our culture with respect to meditation.

[40:38]

Last week I went to a new doctor and I had to fill in a medical history and there was prominently on the medical history a question, do you meditate? If so, how often? And for how long? I genuinely thought this was an important part of health. So that's pretty wonderful, I think, that our culture is beginning to I mean, at least in some parts of it, recognize this as, I don't want to use the word lifestyle, because that's trivializing it, but it's something that we should consider as a life, a way of life. Yeah, this is, you know, there's the question, is this a religion, is this a philosophy, or whatever, it's a practice, and it's a way of orienting ourselves to everything in our lives. Yeah, and definitely since I started practicing, big change.

[41:40]

I mean, just the number of books in the Buddhism sections and bookstores is one little measure, but mindfulness and the mindfulness movement that Jon Kabat-Zinn started, now that's part of Western medicine. It's recognized, totally. You know, and in California, so to finish the story, I moved here, started coming here to sit with Nancy and Kathy and other people, I don't know, 2003 or 2004. I don't remember when exactly, but I was going to a group up in Evanston for a little while and I moved here, so this is eight years ago this month. I escaped California, but California is, you know, at least the Bay Area, Northern California, lots of California is kind of a Buddhist It's not the official state religion, but there's lots of Buddhism.

[42:45]

It's part of the culture. Most people know about it. Chicago, not quite yet. There are quite a few groups in Chicago, but it's different. So that's interesting. But about your doctor and mindfulness, I accept an invitation to go and speak at a panel with a Tibetan and a Theravadan teacher next month in Berkeley. and just found out yesterday that I thought it was comparative meditation, but it's about mindfulness and how comparative approaches to mindfulness is the way it's framed. And I kind of missed a little bit, because what we do here, so I really appreciate the way mindfulness teachings have informed American culture, and it's the way that Buddhism is entering American culture, it's one of the ways, through that, through psychology.

[43:52]

And that's a good thing, and it's helping lots of people. I would just add, and Peter Coyote mentioned this when he was here a couple of months ago, that a lot of what's called mindfulness practice is beneficial, but it also doesn't have an ethical or value component. So they're doing mindfulness practice at the Pentagon, which is fine. I'm glad they're doing that. But to become more mindful so that you can build better missiles and bombs, have a problem with a little bit. And so, you know, what we do here looks very formal and traditional compared to Japanese. But Part of what we do is informed by bodhisattva vows, by the precepts, by the sense of being helpful and how to live in the world in a way that is helpful to ourselves and others.

[45:01]

And all of our forms that may seem funny and exotic and Asian, they're really just ways of expressing respect and gratitude. we bow out of gratefulness. I'll do the prostrations to the Buddha out of, you know, appreciation for all, for everybody here and for all the Buddhas in all the worlds and so forth. So I feel like some of what is American mindfulness is kind of this technique that's, you know, kind of doesn't have that depth. So just to say that. At the same time that I recognize that it's really helpful. And again, yes, a lot has changed in Buddhism. So any other, yes, Jeff. Hi. It's kind of related. On one hand, it seems like culture has kind of changed to where it's more kind of accepted. But on the other hand, I feel like there's still like in like my workplace, I would probably never go in and say like I sit in meditation because I think it's a healthy practice for me because I think there's still a lot of kind of stigma.

[46:11]

Yes. And I think that might happen in California, but much less. And I know that's for many people here in our sangha and in Chicago, just some reluctance to be openly Buddhist. And in fact, one of my priests lost his job for being a Zen priest and is now teaching in our affiliate group in New Mexico. So we're in a different culture than than California. And that's okay. People in Chicago need to have access to Zazen as much as anyplace else. And you don't have to advertise that you're a Buddhist. I don't care about Buddhism. Having said all that, about 40 years, I don't care about Buddhism. I care about each person finding their own way to express something really, some deep creativity and helpfulness in their own lives. That's what Zen is about. So you don't have to be a Buddhist.

[47:15]

Some people, Jeremy's wearing a rock suit because he took lay ordination and precepts. So in some sense, he's, I guess, a Buddhist. Are you a Buddhist? I tell people I'm not a Buddhist. OK. That's because, so OK, another story. When I first moved to California, I was going to mention a few things that Nakajima Sensei said to me. I once asked him how to enter nirvana, and he said, die. Because technically, Nirvana is when you pass away. Anyway, but I asked him before I left, what should I say to Bhikkhu Roshi? And he was the teacher there. And he said, ask him, what's the essential teaching of Buddhism? And I didn't get to see him for months and months and months, and even when I was a student of his formally, you know, you'd see him every, you know, maybe twice a year or so. But I asked Reb when I first talked with him, and he said, don't you already know?

[48:22]

And so that's the essential teaching of Buddhism, something we already know. But when I finally got a chance, going back to the question, when I finally got a chance to ask Bekaroshi, Jeremy, he said to me, well, I usually don't answer that kind of question, but I'll make an exception. The essential teaching of Buddhism is that there's no Buddhism. So last comment or question or response. Well, thank you all for listening to this.

[49:06]

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