By the way, let me say about bathing again, I don't mean to discourage you completely. Once or two or three times to rinse yourself off maybe is quite okay, but to bathe every day and look forward to a bath and change your state of mind that way isn't so appropriate for Sashim. Diane's not here. Diane's not here today. Thinking of her question yesterday. Sometimes I have the feeling I'm

[01:05]

Like Suzuki Yoshi often had the feeling, I'm fooling you. Suzuki Yoshi used to say that sometimes. I give a talk and I feel like I'm fooling you. Actually, I don't feel that way so much here at Tassajara, but at Green Gulch and San Francisco sometimes, particularly with many strange faces, I can't imagine, you know, what they think is going on. But I'm always amazed at their capacity. People seem to like it. I don't know. But anyway, I have a funny feeling sometimes. There's a statement used in Zen, sometimes a capping phrase, which goes, on the terraces of Kusu,

[02:32]

Don't speak to me of spring and autumn. Before my face, in front of my face, don't speak of the mysterious and profound, of the profoundly mysterious. Kusu was a famous pavilion built by an emperor for his very beautiful concubine. And I don't know what happened, but soon it was a great ruin. And it was used as an example of how hubris or how great ambition and overweening pomp comes to some ruin. And spring and autumn refers to the analects of Confucius, which criticize rulers. Describes how governments and rulers rise and fall.

[04:00]

So the statement is, on the terraces of Kusu, don't speak to me of spring and autumn. In front of my faith, don't speak of the profound and mysterious. Once in Japan, I think it was in some kind of battle or retreat or something, a samurai in the mountains met a Zen priest traveling the same direction. And the samurai asked the Zen priest, what is the secret of Zen? And the Zen priest said, what is your name? He said, I don't know, Miyoshige or something. He said, Miyoshige? And the samurai said, yes. And the Zen priest said, what is, is there any secret there? Now from this,

[05:31]

conversation, the samurai began to study Zen. Nanyo Echu, who we've talked about before, his famous story about him is about the seamless tower and those of you who were at Suzuki Roshi's funeral ceremony and are planning beforehand for Suzuki Roshi's own seamless tower, we planned it according to some lectures Suzuki Roshi gave about Nanyo Echu's koan about the seamless tower. Anyway, Nanyo Echu was one of sometimes it's called Chu Kokushi. Kokushi is national teacher. Nanyo Echu is one of the disciples of the 6th Patriarch. He was also a disciple of the 5th Patriarch and then became, continued with the 6th Patriarch. The famous disciples of the 6th Patriarch are Seigen Gyoshi and Nanaku.

[06:59]

and Nanyo Echu. There are two more. Another Nannaku, a man named, in Japanese, Kataku, maybe. Kataku? Anyway, those two aren't very well-known. Katakijin. Anyway, those two aren't so well-known. Anyway, Nanyue Chu, the story I want to tell is Nanyue Chu called his attendant three times and his attendant answered three times. He said, Ocean. Ocean said, Yes. He said, Ocean. Yes.

[08:05]

Ocean, yes. Then he said, Nanyo echu se. All this time I thought I was beholden to you, or I had transgressed against you, and now I find it's you who are beholden to me, or you who have transgressed against me. Anyway, that's the story. mumon comments on it. But Nanyo Echi was getting old and lonely and he pushed the cow's head down to try to make him eat. But his attendant wouldn't have any of it.

[09:06]

Even delicious food doesn't look attractive if you have a full stomach. In Zen, you know, we often criticize someone to praise them. In the stories, someone's often criticized to praise them. quats, you know, the shout quats, which doesn't exactly mean anything, but there's also a word quats which is used too, which means stupid or boorish. But it's often used with the idea of you look stupid or boorish. You look just... you don't stink of Zen. So He was saying something like, all this time I've been trying to teach you, overdoing it, trying too hard to teach you, and now I find you're transgressing against me.

[10:34]

Okay. Something like that. Anyway, that's one way to understand it. Ocean, who became his heir, doesn't even say, what is it that you want? He doesn't try to find out what he wants. What is it that you want? He just, without thinking or anything, just says, yes. So maybe a hundred times, or for 18 years, he would just say, yes. This kind of activity is like something very natural, like the face of the mountain has no intention, but communicates something to us. The stones, the way they are lying on the mountain, or making the mountain, may be very

[12:12]

exceedingly beautiful or not so beautiful. Seldom are they ugly. But if you try to arrange it by your intention, it's very difficult to make something that doesn't look funny. The extraordinary shadows passing across a mountain, have no intention to be beautiful, yet they communicate something to us. So by our practice we should communicate in this way. Ocean is communicating, and Nanyo in this way. Communication, but no intention in the usual sense. If it's beautiful, it's beautiful. If it's ordinary, it's ordinary. Some intentionless communicative activity. Every day is a good day for

[13:40]

Sun-Faced Buddha, Moon-Faced Buddha, or Vassa is ordinary, just ordinary activity. But as Suzuki Roshi says, they accept everything as it is. Everything is accepted as it is. no feeling, it should be this way or I like this or I don't like that, just what happens, we accept. Non-discriminating, non-memory type of, not averaging our senses. We should have the ability to participate in the dualistic world and discriminate, but always, at the same time, our deep feeling should be non-memory. If you want to gain something, you don't understand emptiness. Emptiness means not to want anything, to attain nothing.

[15:00]

To practice, to attain nothing, is emptiness. To practice, to attain something, obviously, would not be emptiness. So you don't start out, well, when I attain something, I'll understand emptiness, and then I'll... You know, right now, emptiness. Right now, attain nothing. Right now, find your intentionless activity, though I can say, by your deep intention. And this practice requires some unusual effort. As I've said, it's not the kind of effort that you solve some mathematics problem or carry something heavy. some or some effort that you make for your employer or for 40 hours a week, but an effort in which you're completely engaged. Don't overlook your deep feeling in sasheen.

[16:28]

some self-joyous feeling, some hint of some great or deep ease. Don't overlook that for your more trivial concerns, your sometimes pride, your refusal to do it our way, because you want to do it your way, and by that you lose your way. Our way and your way are the same. Your great capacity, which you have a hint of in sasheen, your great capacity for

[17:31]

selfless, intentionless life are brought out by some great effort, great challenge, great compassion, great doubt. Great doubt is so important. What is it? Completely, what is it? Without accepting any explanations. Why is it like this? There's no way to explain it. What is it? Until what is it is exhausted, you ask, what is it? By this intentionless, non-discriminating, non-memory engagement, not killing anything, you will come to the point that you turn around and see everything as it is, just quite clearly, without any explanation necessary.

[19:01]

You know, most of the lists, Buddhist lists, ten bhumis, six paramitas, ten precepts, if you understand the first one, it actually, the others are mostly just a continuation, a further direction of your experience. So a list can be quite endless, or just one. Do not kill is like that. Do not kill means there's no way out. You can't kill it. You can't avoid it. When you see that, you'll understand what effort is. Do not kill. You cannot kill anything. You cannot avoid anything. There's no way out. No way out. Sometimes do not kill is taken to mean don't try anything too dangerous or don't try anything that might hurt someone. Don't try something requiring too great an effort because it would surely crush something. But this laziness is to kill your Buddha nature.

[20:40]

The difficulty is to try completely, knowing there's no way out, with absolute sincerity. This way you don't have to worry about killing or not killing them. If you know there's no way out, you won't kill anything. So you won't steal anything. There's no reason to lie. Your nature is written everywhere. There's no reason to curry favor, praising someone, etc. no way to be careless of the three treasures. One of the mu'mins' poem on this story of Nanyo Echu and his attendant, one of the lines is,

[22:13]

it's an iron collar. They used to put criminals in an iron collar. It's an iron collar with no hole which you must wear and your descendants will pay for it. Your descendants will have to deal with it too. And another comment on this story is a beautiful poem by which Hogen, not the Hogen of, founder of Hogen School, but who was also influenced by Hawaiian Buddhism, like Tozan was, and Sekito Kisen, and a different Hogan, but also this poem is rather, when understood by Buddhism, is rather like Huayen Buddhism. Anyway, poem is in a situation so beautiful you can't describe it. It means some beautiful palace or

[23:38]

many hanging cloths. You know, Japanese and Chinese spaces are really indescribable. They really are incredibly beautiful. They don't have walls, you know, like we do. They create space by some mood, and they change it according to the seasons. So a wall is often just hanging gauze or silk or little strips of cloth in various layers so the breeze moves through and the colors, different colors, light brown and golden brown, indigo, you know, play back and forth just looking into a room because the breeze moves through. It's very hot, you know, in the summer. And everything is kept open, but for privacy, they have these various hanging claws and bamboo, hanging rolled bamboo of various kinds. So it says, the poem says, some seem too beautiful to describe. And in the inner bedroom, a young

[25:07]

Lady, forlorn in love, calls out for her attendant, Little Jade, Little Jade. She doesn't care if she comes or not. She only wishes her lover could hear her voice. In Japan, when I was walking along, people used to call me.

[26:22]

Marubozo. Marubozo. And marubozo means bozo is some... I think it's some clownish monk. Bones is monk, you know. Bozo, I don't know. It's like a clown maybe. And maro means round. So, shaved-headed round marubozo. I'd be walking these kids and rerunning, Marabozo! Marabozo! And at first I used to think, it's not me. I have hair and wear regular clothes, not these robes. So that's not me they're calling Marabozo. gave me some opportunity not to be me. So this is not me. This is not me. It's some relief, which I found out. I became quite happy when they called me Marabozo from then on.

[27:46]

Do you have some questions you'd like to talk about or anything? Can you complain about our bell? I don't know. What should I say? I want to hear. What is your complaint? It's very loud. To end zazen you mean? Begin zazen? It's too loud? What? It's too loud. I asked them to take it a little louder so people who are waiting for Doug's time could hear it. So they could follow the schedule in that room. Are they hitting, you mean they're hitting it loud, people hitting it louder now than they were or has it been bothering you?

[29:25]

I turned around and then somebody came up to me. You were standing right beside the bell? Do they give you a chance to run? Yeah, I can understand if you're right beside it, but in the Zen Do from the beginning of the session it's been too loud for you?

[30:39]

It's OK in Nintendo. Just if you're caught in a fall, say you might be a server for Nintendo or some other company, and people say you're in a fall, it's OK. That's if you hit somebody who isn't pregnant. And if they hit it incorrectly, it's kind of fine. It's really not. I couldn't believe I saw that. It's sad that we're putting it up. I said, oh, no, we're not going to develop again. And he said, I like it. Well, we heard from this side of the room. This partition does something to you. Any more? This is a wonderful topic. Any more? Anybody in favor of the bell?

[31:41]

If we do without it, you won't know when to stop. Okay, I'll come back. Let's finish with this bell. You know, sometimes when I go out, like at the end of lecture or whenever, as I'm putting on my shoes, somebody goes, whang! It's quite startling, actually. And I ask that you wait till I'm a little bit past it. Sometimes I'm right beside it, you know. But if I'm just at the stone, it doesn't bother me. But it's rather rude to hit it if someone's right beside it. You shouldn't hit it with any loudness at all if somebody's beside it. So if the servers are there... Of course, maybe the servers should step back a little, if they can, when they know the bell's about to be hit.

[33:14]

If you happen to be in there. It's a little, what can we do? I never hear the one hit. I only hear the two hits. I don't mind. I look at my watch.

[34:19]

I figured, must be, must have been hit. I say to David, did you hear that first bell, second bell? I usually hear this first two, but next to my name. It's too loud, it's true. At that time, if you're beside it, maybe, can't we clear people away? Is it necessary? People need to hear it, though, don't they? Could we hit it lightly and then hit the Han or something? Or hit the Han instead? Would that be better? But you can't hear the Han either, all the way, unless you had the echoing Han. Question. Could you possibly read the bell where it is? And is that going to make sure it's deepest? We don't want to make it too convenient. I mean, I think we should be able to make this work. Maybe just when the person hits it, he should be careful, he or she should be careful that there's nobody standing too near.

[35:47]

At least for now, let's finish this session with that bell. I don't think Ed wants to move it today. In Rinzai, the periods of Zazen are started by great big wooden clappers, which are quite loud. You sit in rows like this, and Jikijutsu has clappers about. that long, about that big around, and the period of zazen has begun that way, and ends that way. So it's, I used to find it, used to, our way, a pretty soft bell. It was very, it doesn't, unless you're sitting right next to Jiggi Jitsu, it doesn't hurt your ears, but a very brisk feeling. Where does great doubt come from? From doubting. From trying to... From not accepting explanations. From not taking things for granted.

[37:12]

How do we exist? We don't know. If you try to explain it, you can't explain it. So as long as you have that feeling to need to explain or need to want to have some understanding, this is the kind of effort we make. If you feel that, you take that fully to its extreme. I want to have some understanding. I don't understand. So what is it, that kind of feeling? Do you understand? So we should always... It's not in the realm of should. I don't know, sometimes we don't care so much. We're quite content or we don't quite content with taking many things for granted that we don't even know we're taking them for granted. But sometimes by some unforeseen difficult circumstances

[38:42]

we question what we're doing. Or by practice, sometimes we question, and unable to answer it, that great doubt. In Zen, it's sometimes described as hot iron ball in your stomach. You can't feel easy once it's there. But it comes from actually trying to do something. As I said earlier in the Sashin, Buddhist practice is for people who actually try to be honest, completely honest. When you actually try something completely, to help someone, to be honest, to live some kind of impeccable, accurate, thorough life, Then you come up to why you can't do it, what barrier is always there. By your effort to try, doubt comes up. Yes?

[40:12]

It was so interesting because his relationship to his teacher was so strong. I think we heard about his relationship to his teacher. His way with his teacher. I know he stayed in the temple for six or eight months without ever seeing him. He was regular. When making this transition, it wasn't possible. For a month or so, I had to be involved in it, to accept it. Maybe half a year. who is standing still, helping others. So he had to leave that situation. But could he have...

[41:33]

You mean, if he just heard the Diamond Sutra and never met the Fifth Patriarch? First, you know, you're Let me separate your question from the historical example, okay? Could you hear what she said? The story of the Sixth Patriarch and the Fifth Patriarch was apocryphal, mostly, probably. Mostly not true. So the reason it doesn't feel the same as all the other stories is because it's mostly made up, it seems. And Suzukiyoshi said this, and various people have said it at times, and recently Yanagida-sensei, who's coming to America next year, and with Iriya-sensei too,

[43:09]

we may invite them to come to Zen Center. Yanagida Sensei and his wife are very good friends of Nakamura Sensei. And Yanagida Sensei's wife is Sally's, my daughter's, tea teacher. Anyway, we have some connection with him. And Yanagida Sensei is maybe the best young scholar in the Rinzai tradition. And Rinzai has been somewhat more reluctant to accept historical scholarship pertaining to the Buddhist documents until recently. But anyway, he has come up with pretty good evidence that establishes how the Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch was compiled at a much later time. But the story, even as it's written, shows his understanding from the Diamond Sutra, then the limitation of that understanding and how he understood at various levels. It's sort of worked out in several stages in the document.

[44:39]

How long did he stay pounding rice? Does anybody remember? That's all? Length of time doesn't mean anything. It's your potentiality. Probably if say if the story was a real story and conditions were favorable, he would have stayed with the fifth patriarch a long time, probably, because that kind of thing is not unusual, someone meeting their teacher and in a short time. Dogen was only in China for a short time. In quite short time, recognizing each other. And yet then, why go somewhere? So that story of the other monks being jealous and... I don't know about it. Can you understand? So your question is,

[46:17]

Can you understand Buddhism or be enlightened by reading sutras alone or by chance or by your own efforts alone? Is that what your question is? Did you hear what she said? What about all the monks who never receive transmission? I don't know.

[47:27]

That's okay. If you really don't care about transmission completely, you'll receive transmission. If your teacher has time, doesn't die or something. Transmission is not something special. It's an iron collar without a hole. says Mumma. Kabhi Mora said to Nagarjuna, just be a monk. That's the only way we can practice, just do it. When you just do it, Buddhism is in your hand. Oreo's first barrier is, why, when people would come to see him, he would just hold out his hand. Why is my hand like Buddha's hand?

[48:57]

His other second barrier was, why is my leg like an ass's leg, like a donkey's leg? To be concerned with, was there a Buddha before Buddha, Why did Bodhidharma come from the West? Did Buddha form the Sangha in his lifetime? That kind of question is too concerned with time and with attainment. It doesn't matter. Flash of an eyebrow one or two lifetimes. If you think in those terms, you can't understand Buddhism. And unfortunately, most people don't understand Buddhism so well, even as Suzuki Roshi said, people who practice their whole lifetime.

[50:26]

don't receive transmission, if that's important, but it's by their own choice, not by their lack of understanding. It's because they prefer their monkey mind. They prefer their self. They prefer their destiny. Even though Dogen describes destiny like a flash of lightning, your destiny, but they prefer their destiny. So, many Buddhist monks actually are choosing, I prefer to live this way, half-worldly monk, or mostly concerned with my position or robes or how much food I have. Not so concerned with just offering myself, just answering, yes? If you just answer yes, you know, maybe Fifth Patriarch would have said, stay here forever, or maybe he would have said, go. Whatever, if the story is true, the Sixth Patriarch, there would have just been some mutual understanding. Fifth Patriarch wouldn't have, Sixth Patriarch wouldn't have thought, I only want to stay here six months, or I am good because I'm here six months and someone else has been here six years.

[51:57]

Any such thought is delusion. I met a person at Green Gulch. rather chubby person who came up to me, quite direct, powerful person, young man. And he asked me questions, why, what, etc. Quite good, quite good. I just listened, you know. He was trying to test himself. So I said, I don't accept it. And he doubted himself. And he tried various things. And occasionally there was some gap.

[53:23]

That gap is very difficult to eliminate, but he was quite good. He sent me later a whole sheaf of short poems, and I want to answer them, but I can't find it, where it went. It's in some carton somewhere, so I feel rather embarrassed, but I get so many things, I can't cope with them. So I'm always half-looking. I say to Lucy, would you look through all those? Try to find those poems. I feel I should respond to them. Enlightenment feeling. This was about two years ago. Maybe three. At least two. I'm still looking. Yeah.

[54:41]

not offering a preference or self-centered feeling in the light of accepting everything that comes up. So if we accept it, then we're preferring... So we can't accept that. We accept, but our effort is to offer. We don't criticize ourselves for it. Oh yes, I'm so selfish, but... You try. Like that. And if you keep trying to drop that kind of discrimination, just accept it's... The words are contradictory. So it's rather, if I describe it, it's already in time. There's this act of not discriminating, just accepting what you are. Then there's the next act of not discriminating and just doing something selflessly. So I can't explain because already it's wrong. It occurs in the framework of time and something like that, but both occur at the same time, just accepting what we are without putting ourself down, without saying, I'm not so good student, he or she is a good student, etc.

[56:18]

not worrying about such things at all, just what you are, what you've done. But it means more and more you're escaping from the world of memory. Then there's even nothing to accept, because your engagement is complete, final. And even when it's not, objective, subjective type thinking doesn't stick. We can do it, but it won't stick. We can think about ourself, I am such and such a kind of person, or I have such and such a job, but it doesn't stick with us anymore. It's of no significance in our activity. But it's not a matter of analysis, it's just a matter of trying. Just try, and just try, and just try.

[57:22]

And even if you don't succeed, if you're one of those nameless, not-me monks who never receive anything, that's perfect Buddhism, maybe. And your life is quite good, I think. Yes. Can't you imagine? It's not just what I imagine. What do you mean? Yeah, it's always... The other... I could have said, in addition to Sukhirshi saying, or I feeling I'm fooling you sometimes, sometimes I'm tired of talking about Zen all the time. I'm not so interested in Zen at all, actually. I don't know how to... You know, I talk... I don't know what to do. You want to sit, Zazen. You have various problems or doubts or confusions.

[58:51]

So I try to limit myself to what I enjoy. If I enjoy it, maybe you will. Yeah? And one of those parts, first, was mine. I think it was a board. I'm not sure. Some parts are stronger than others. The writing is better. There's really nothing to say about it. I like it. Definitely. To win, huh? Now withdraw your attention from the battle.

[60:16]

Let them fight, but you don't have to be stuck there. As I said, the problem is our attention is wedded to the thinking, not that the thinking is bad. Many things are going on. Why are you so concerned with the fight? We enjoy the fight so much, we don't really. If I help you arm both sides, you'll just enjoy it more. No one will win. And you will choose that side. By zazen practice and by sashin, maybe you will get a taste of your deep capacity. And choose that

[61:28]

And your attention, you can take your attention, unglue your attention from such a limited identity. And we can say your ego covers everything. Do you understand? Already you're discriminating. I have a special practice for you. But what else? Yeah?

[62:29]

Oh. Okay. I don't know. The door is open here, so it's up to the women here at Sun Center and America to find out. Can you hear what he said? He said, Yasutani Roshi said that women are nearer to enlightenment than men, so don't need enlightenment or something. Some Roshi might say that's the booby prize for not being a man or something like that. It's interpreted both ways. It's a profound question which I am

[63:57]

debating with myself. How can this practice be available to anybody? And people are different, you know, and men and women are different, so there is some difference, you know. Historically, why there were no women is quite clear, you know. At the best times, men and women were considered, maybe you can say, one unit. So left hand did one thing and right hand did the other thing. There wasn't some battle about it. And in every area, men did it. But human enlightenment, not attached to individuals, is the activity of men and women. Teaching it may be mostly historically the activity of men, but I don't know. We have to find out. The Zen Center, for

[65:21]

many decades, I would like us to make an effort to keep Zen Center as open as possible to anybody who wants to practice. And I have some feeling about how it's going, actually, and what will be happening, but I think that's the subject for a meeting, not for this right now. Okay. Don't you want to stop? When you say you can just control your attention point, can you do that? Well, I didn't say you can just do it, I said, just do it! But, also, we need to know ourselves, or that's a good practice of getting to know yourself, getting to understand yourself, and becoming a little more aware of yourself. Are we talking about learning ourselves?

[66:25]

Why do you want to know about all that neurotic activity? Then forget about it. Just like Nanyuechu and Oshin. Oh, hi. Hello. What is it?

[66:58]

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