We have the psychic inheritance, and I say, you could call this past births, you see, the Buddha remembered all his past births, I think he really simply opened the unconscious and knew the past of humanity, that's how I would put it. And but thirdly, now this came to me more recently, we have this physical inheritance, we have a psychic inheritance, and we have a spiritual inheritance. You see, now this brings me back to the main point which I've always worked on. You see, Kumaraswamy, in his metaphysical writings, has an article on the one and only transmigrant, and he quotes Shankara saying, the Lord is the only transmigrator. And he gives a lot of text from the Vedas, the early tradition, that the Lord, the Atman, the spirit, is migrating from life to life, you see. He lives in you and in me, and he realizes himself in you and in me, and that is a unique event. Then he goes on to another birth, but he brings with him the experience of the past.

[01:03]

So when the spirit enters into me and forms me, it's not simply a tabula rasa, it's a spirit which has the inheritance of the past, and that would explain perhaps the Tibetan tukku, you see, that a special spiritual inheritance takes place. And I would think also, as I've mentioned, about Christian baptism, you see. If you're received into a Christian family and baptized, you enter into spiritual inheritance, you see. I'm only sort of guessing, I'm trying to face it as it were. But that would be that the spirit is going from birth to birth, gathering up all these human experiences, and in the end they're all brought to nudity, and the word, the one word, the logos, the son, and return to the father, you see. And we're all recapitulating, as I say, the history of humanity. So that would be a presentation which makes some sense.

[02:04]

It's not the way people ordinarily conceive, but it's interesting because, of course, in the Buddhist tradition there is no soul to transmigrate, is there? And they say you have these skandhas, these elements come together, and when you die certain tendencies, I think that's how they put it, have been created and they go on. You don't go on properly, there's no you in the Buddhist tradition. So you see, reincarnation is a sort of wide open, I think we want to get rid of the sort of simplistic idea, my soul goes into another body, and like that, that seems to me rather childish. But there is a deep truth behind it all, really. And so that would be the, I would try to understand that. So now we've tried to see, you see, how the whole creation converges on humanity, and now the whole of humanity is being moved by the Spirit of God towards this final experience of total unity, and each religious tradition has its own understanding of this movement

[03:12]

towards the final goal, you see, the final reality. And each has its own validity and significance, and then within the different religious traditions is the tradition of Israel, with its particular unique experience of God. And each is unique, you see, this is what I feel we have to see, that each religious tradition has its unique value. The American Indian, for instance, you see, I think we're all discovering that, has these unique values in it. The Australian Aborigines have, the African tribal peoples have, all the different ones. All of these are unique modes in which this mystery of humanity, of existence, is being experienced, you see, and manifested in symbols. And then you get the greater religions, where they incorporate so many other elements in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, and so on. And each one of them is a manifestation of this work of the Spirit leading humanity from its material and its psychic existence to its final spiritual reality, where it converges.

[04:17]

And now what is particular in the Christian tradition, I think, is this, that it is a historical community, you see. From the beginning, the idea was that Israel was chosen, Abraham was chosen, Moses, but it was to lead Israel. The people was chosen, not the individual only, he's the leader of the people. And all through the history, it is that people who has been guided by God, that people who has been judged by God. And in the prophets in particular, it's very interesting, you see, if you compare the Hebrew prophets with the Rishis or the Buddhist teachers, they're all involved in the community. It's always Israel that they're concerned with, not for their individual self, that's included, but with Israel. And they lament Israel's apostasy, and they call them to return, and so on. They're totally involved in that human situation. Now this I think is very important, you see, this historical dimension in the whole human

[05:20]

experience. None of us can bypass history, and therefore the experience of the cosmic experience and the psychological experience are all valid in their own way, but they are not complete unless they also relate to history, you see. We are parts of a historic development of man as has been developing through history, coming into being, developing, experiencing, and so on. And in Israel there is a particular, if you like, a particular line in which this historic development has taken place, and the Christian Church comes into being as a historic community, sharing this experience of God in Israel, and its own unique experience through Christ, and continuing that experience through history, through the sacraments as I've described them. Now what is important in this, I think, is this, that this involvement in history means

[06:22]

that we are involved in the world in which we live. Somebody asked about social concern, and I've rather left it out, but you see, once we put it in that context, we belong to a historic community, and all of us, humanity, is a historical community, you see. We've grown from all these different levels of tribal life and so on, we're all converging at this present time, and we all have that history behind us, and we're growing through that history, and we're growing towards a fulfillment, and we're responsible for the world, you see. And so this social concern with regard to race, with regard to sex, with regard to war, these are part of this whole cosmic mystery, you see, in which we're involved. They're not sort of accidental elements which we can leave behind. We are the matter, and man in history is being recreated, is being reconstructed, and is

[07:24]

moving towards fulfillment. So you see, when we reach the ultimate state, we don't leave all this behind. It is all gathered up. Father Panica, Raymond Panica, introduced the word temp-eternity. See, eternity isn't just leaving time behind, it's gathering all time, all history, into fulfillment. And T.S. Eliot had a nice phrase when he said, I think of the Incarnation, it was the point of the intersection of the timeless with time. So time is taken up into the timeless, you see, it is not just dissolved. So we're all involved in this historic process, members of this human community which is growing. And now it seems to me, you see, that Christian community, we call it a sacrament, it's a sign of this human community. It was a little tiny community in Jerusalem, it had people from all different parts of the world there. It was a sign that the human community is to be gathered together, it's to come back into unity of one heart and mind, and it's to share its goods with one another.

[08:28]

They were all one heart and mind, and no one considered anything had was his own, but they divided all as each had need. So your spiritual community becomes a social community of total unity, as I said, of Jew and Greek, of male and female, of slave and master, and it becomes an economic community, you see, you begin to share your goods, and so this to me is the pattern, you see. And we're now trying to form a world community, you see, and it seems to me that it's at that point that this meeting of the religions must take place, and each one has its own unique contribution to make, you see. I mean, here in America you cannot neglect the American Indian, it's part of your inheritance, you see. And in Australia they're almost destroying them, but they can't ignore the Australian Aborigines any longer, and obviously in Africa, South America, and so on. We're all involved in this creating a human community, and the pattern of it, and the

[09:30]

sign of it, the sacrament of it, is manifested in that Christian community at Pentecost, and it shows us what we're moving towards. But now we have this obligation, you see, and as I said, this Christian community spread westwards. It took a Greek theology at a Roman law, developed in Europe, and then came to America, and it's entirely structured in this Western way. And now we're seeing how that same community can open to the Hindu, the Buddhist, the Muslim, the Taoist, the Parsi also, all these Sikh communities, all these have their own unique values, you see, and we're coming to this point of convergence of religions. But it's all part of a historic process in which God is working through man and is building up the human community to its final unity, you see. So the responsibility for the world in which we're living, the present condition of society

[10:30]

in America and other parts of the world, and of course above all, I would say, the problem of nuclear war, and somebody mentioned that to me yesterday, I think it was the day before, and that seems to me extremely relevant, you see, that really the choice has been put before us whether we go on, and this links up, you see, with the whole subject of the seminar, of the new science and Eastern mysticism, because the new science is teaching us that mechanistic science and mechanistic theology is leading to a dead end, you see, and it's destroying the world if we allow this present system to go on, it will go on producing nuclear power, it will go on producing nuclear weapons, and there will be a holocaust at some time. And we need a new science and a new technology according to the new vision of the universe as science conceives it today,

[11:31]

which is an organic universe, where first of all you learn to relate to the world around you, you don't destroy nature and try to overcome it, you see, all the sins of our present system are due to this science and technology which wanted to dominate nature, and now the new organic vision of society is one where the feminine unites itself with the masculine, and we realize our dependence on nature, on the world around us, and we have a sense of ecology as something fundamental in our lives, you see. And we cannot simply accept the present system as it is, we have to say that this system has gone in the wrong direction, it is leading the world to destruction, and we need to have a new science, a new technology, which will be a human science and a human technology, and science will no longer be separated from psychology, from the whole understanding of the human psyche, and will no longer be separated from spirituality, from the

[12:35]

ultimate reality in which we're all converging. So you see really we're, I think, we're at the beginning of a new age, and on the other hand we have to live by faith, you see, because around us the other thing is getting stronger and stronger, and the other is getting greater and greater, and we don't know what's going to happen there, but a community is growing up all over the world, network, it's growing up where people are discovering this new reality, this new science, this new psychology, this new understanding of mysticism, this new understanding of the church. You see, I think if the Christian churches could rediscover this experience of God which came in Jesus, which came in Pentecost, and in the early church, then it could be open to all these currents of spirituality throughout the world, and then we could really see a human community coming into being. So that's the kind of goal I wanted to suggest to you, perhaps you would ask some questions. I once asked Joseph Campbell if he thought that there was anything unique that Christianity brought

[13:38]

to the world, and his answer was no. Yes, that's very common, you know, but Karl Rahner, you know, I think he's the great man, I don't expect you to know him, he's a bit difficult to read, and he's written about 24 volumes, so it's a bit difficult in that way, but his latest one was The Foundations of Christian Faith, and I think he's very profound, and he makes this point about history, that this is a historical community, and we're all involved in a historic thing. You see, the way we usually distinguish is you have the cosmic religion, God's revelation, and the cosmos, the creation, and almost all ancient religion is cosmic religion. But then you have God's revelation in the psyche and soul, and that is universal, and in India particularly it's been brought to the highest possible level. But thirdly, you have the historic revelation, God revealing himself to a particular people, to Abraham, to Moses, to David, and so on, and forming that particular historic community, and finally coming to head in a historic person, a historic event. You see, Christian

[14:41]

mysticism is not simply cosmic mysticism or psychological mysticism, it's a mysticism which comes from experience of death and resurrection in Christ. You see, it's a unique historic event which gives birth to a unique mystical experience, and the Church is born out of this experience of death and resurrection, Jesus' death and resurrection, and that is a unique event, you see, that is the unique thing. But the others all have their own unique character and validity, you see, we're not denying that. But each has its own, you see, I don't think Hinduism and Buddhism can just be equated, each has it, and the Buddha really separated from Hinduism, you see, and has its own unique understanding of the world and everything, and we have to recognize these differences. In India the great problem, you know, nobody wants to recognize any differences, you see, all religions are the same, you see, and blur all the differences, but the one is revealing himself in all religions at every level and every human being, you see, the one reality is present to every human being, and with all these

[15:45]

differences, and we have to recognize the difference and yet see that behind all differences the one truth, the one reality, the one stuff is manifest in this world. Wouldn't you say part of the historical development and convergence which you emphasize is precisely, for instance, the coming of the Dharma to the West in a special way? I mean the diaspora of Tibetans, of old Tibet, and the extraordinary creative future of the Vajrayana Dharma in the West, if I would understand this is part of that process you're talking about, which after all is a historical process, although one would say Buddhism essentially is not historical in the way they submitted religions are, but just this one point, the coming of

[16:46]

the Dharma to the West in a Pentecost is significant in the kind of picture you're talking about. And perhaps particularly now Tibetan Buddhism, because this emphasis on the tantra, on the transformation of the body and sexuality, the male and the female, that is something which is coming into the West now, you see, and giving us a new understanding, so there's a convergence, you see, it's taking place, it's important. It's present in everything you said here, but I think it's a special historical, you might say, problem and opportunity for Christianity today to reassess the dimension of the feminine, you know, in our tradition, and of course, you know, there is a certain indication, you know, of a feminine view of God in the Old Testament, you know, God is Mother in the Prophets,

[17:48]

and God is Midwife, and this feminine element, but maybe today, I'd say the history didn't end, you know, with the first generation, the first century, second century, there's a kind of a new revelation, that can, you know, go off on a tangent, which I have another view, but I mean, there seems to be something, a very new opportunity, which is involved with something specifically that concerns Christianity specifically, you know, to be free from an excessive, you know, patriarchal, or machista structure, and also an opportunity for the human race. Yeah, I certainly agree, and I think it involves the two aspects, you see, one is the encounter with the Eastern mystical tradition always has a feminine character, you see, because in mysticism, you're always receptive, you have to be open, and Western science is now, you see, opening us to this, the whole Western culture is discovering the value of the feminine, you see, we're moving from the yang to the yin, and this has to come into the church, you see, and we're

[18:52]

totally patriarchal, you see, popes, bishops, priests, all male, and the women can't even serve on the altar properly, it's extraordinary when you think of it, you see, but it'll break down, you know, and perhaps very soon, it's amazing how quickly these things happen, I always remember, you know, in 1959, I think it was, I went to a liturgical conference in Holland, and all the leaders of the liturgical movement were there, and we sent a message to the Pope saying that we should have the vernacular in the liturgy, we'd have all Latin, you see, then, and we said it was necessary now to have the vernacular, and that was in 1959, and I went to England, and I found everybody in England regarded people who talked about vernacular as sort of far-out loonies, you know, with no status whatsoever, and in five, six years, the whole church had accepted the vernacular in the liturgy, it took five or six years to pass from a total rejection to a complete acceptance, so the same thing could easily happen within 10 years, you could have a feminine

[19:53]

revolution in the church, it was a famous story about the Vatican council, I don't know if you know that the first, the second Vatican council was a council of bishops, and the third Vatican council would be a council of bishops and their wives, and the fourth Vatican council would be a council of bishops with their husbands, I think you're right, I mean, it's something very, very beautiful. We had a very interesting experience in Davos, where this time the Halveti-Jerahi jurisdiction came, Sheikh Muzaffar, you know, who were invited to Bombay but couldn't make it, and when we first saw them in Menlo Park, they did the zikr, and then invited participants at the end to dance with them in the final part, but there's very, very specific instruction that women cannot join the circle, they have to sort of just be around and watch,

[20:57]

and to our surprise in Davos, Sheikh Muzaffar invited everybody. Yes, these things are happening all the time. Yes, yes. Father, in the vastness of the universe, there is every likelihood that there is an intelligence somewhere else. Yes. There is an intelligence somewhere else, equal or possibly greater than our own, or more advanced. Now, is it possible in the way of the universe that the nuclear problems have already developed with the overkill to such an extent that, well, when we see a star and it's exploding, it's possible that there's a planet on that star that has a life similar to ours,

[22:00]

that's gone through the same type of history as Earth, as Mother Earth has. Yes. Do you think that it might be possible that we have just gone too far in our own despise of our moments here? Yes. And that we have not achieved, and maybe that we will not achieve that state of moral indulgence, firstly, of the transformation. It could be, but I think in the Christian tradition we would say very definitely that God will save this world, you see, that he's come into this world and he will save it, whatever conflicts and disasters may come, it will always come through. That's the biblical tradition very much, you see, or one disaster after another comes. And don't forget, it's very important, Jesus left the disciples with the expectation the world would come to an end in their own lifetime, you know. That's very important. He saw it. Kingdom of God is at hand and this is about to take place.

[23:03]

And really all extension in time is in a sense irrelevant. It's an accident because the end is already there, you see. So I think we would have to say that whatever may happen to this world, the final fulfillment will take place. The final fulfillment of humanity will take place, in spite of all. As Julian of Norwich said, all shall be well and all shall be well and all shall be very well. An act of faith. An act of faith, yes. Well, you've left for me rather implicit the face of the future church. I wonder if you could just bring it out a bit more, how you see it will change. I think it could only be, I think the church has to be true to her own tradition. She has to renew the experience of Israel, the experience of Christ, the experience of Pentecost and the whole thing from the root, you see.

[24:04]

But through encounter with other traditions, you see. They awaken the new vibrations in us and we begin to see new meanings in the biblical tradition. But that is our root. And I think that will always remain. And I think also, you know, I still rather feel, you see, each religion has its extraordinary how they've grown, you see. Think of Buddhism, the way it came out of India and spread all across Asia and taken on so many different forms and yet retains an identity, you see. And same with Hinduism, over these thousands of years, all the vast variety. And everybody can do everything in Hinduism, and yet there's a unity behind it, you see. So there is... Islam is the same. So arrogant. Well, it was very unfortunate, you know, it grew up, you see, in the Old Testament, it's very strong, this sense that God has chosen Israel, they are the chosen people, and the

[25:04]

Gentiles are, all the Gentiles are sinners, you see. But it's not true to the tradition of Israel, because there are marvellous passages in the Old Testament, where it's shown that God has care for the Gentiles, and that Israel is only chosen in order that the Gentiles may come in and also share in it. So it was a narrow resort which developed this kind of arrogance, you see, which is still about present day. And the Christian Church inherited that, you see. We always had this idea that this is the truth and we reject all others, you see. And that has been the disaster, and it still exists today in many quarters, you see. And until that is broken and we realise that we're sharing in a tradition of all humanity, there is no hope for the Church. I mean, that is a dead end, completely, you see. You feel that has something to do with the patriarchal and the gang and the aggressiveness? Yes, very much, yes, very much. I'd say it's also a result of Christianity coming, flowering through the Greek culture, which is rational, and which poses the either-or problem.

[26:07]

Whereas in the Jewish problem, although this arrogance is latent there, in their theological approach it's far more of a wisdom religion, and there is always a whole variety of different positions which are possible. And with the Greek logistic kind of theology, you get a dogmatic position where you have only this is right. Whereas in India and in the Jewish midrash tradition, you have, well, this rabbi said this, and this one said this, and this one said this, and let's see in each situation what is really the truth. Whereas we've lost that in Christianity. I think it's extremely true about the Greek tradition. Do you want to...? No, no. No. You see, the Greeks had this logical mind, you see. It was perfected with Aristotle, really, the perfect logical mind, the rational mind, and so they translated the Christian mystery with all its rich symbolism into terms of rational, logical system, you see. It was organized by St. Thomas Aquinas. It's a beautiful thing, but of course it's a disaster in a way, because you're bringing

[27:11]

the whole thing down onto the rational level. And St. Thomas himself, you see, was a mystic, you know. At the end he said, everything I've written seems to me like straw in comparison to what I have seen. But after St. Thomas, they lost the mysticism and they kept up the rationalism, and so the whole thing became more and more dogmatic, rationalistic, moralistic, so we've sunk into that. Now it's begun to revive. Q Just to balance off the other side of it, because it's a question I actually had before this came up, but it's an interesting counterpoint to this, because the early Christian church was originally, in its Judaic Christian form, there was some question as to how much the Gentiles would be included, and it was really Paul, of Greek cultural background, who opened up the universal mission. K That is interesting. And there's also ways in which the whole idea of the Greek Logos and the Roman Empire and the Alexandrian Empire made the universalization of the Christian religion possible in a way

[28:14]

that the Judaic, something more nationalistic, was not aiming. So in some ways it was the Greek background that opened it, and Paul in particular. And my question actually was, how much was the universal quality of the Christian revelation somehow present amongst the original disciples prior to Paul? Because it seemed like Paul was really pivotal there. K That's a very good point. You're quite right, actually. You see, St. Peter, if he'd been left to it, the church would never have got off the ground, I don't think, really. You see, he had to have a special revelation in order to receive a Gentile into the church. They all saw it simply as a fulfillment of the promises to Israel, and they were to have seats at the right hand and the left hand in the Kingdom of God, and so on. And it was St. Paul, as you see, who opened it. And the Greek influence, I put the negative side of it, but it had the very positive. It was much more universalistic. And as you see, the Logos, you see, opened up the Jewish theology to the whole Greek

[29:16]

world in that way. So… Q Sorry, it cuts both ways. K It cuts both ways, exactly. And you were celebrating a Neoplatonic mystical infusion, too, yesterday, which was very great, too. I'm a little surprised that nobody has pushed you about the question of personal reincarnation. Your doctor is a corporate, the great perusha, the great mystical person, which, as you know, I also share with you. I'm surprised that no one has said, don't tell the past. Q We have a story that Father Mead told us. Did I get to tell that? K Yeah, I hope so. Q We asked him to promise to tell us later. K Childish, you know, there's that saying, you don't get to enter into the Kingdom unless you become like a child. Q Father Mead, I remember the writings of Lama Govinda, and he told long stories about

[30:26]

the Togus people, by recognising their belts and chains and rosaries and all sorts of things. How can you say… K Well, I would interpret that, you see, in terms, as I say, there is a psychic inheritance and I think in that case also a spiritual inheritance, and that it can be canonised in that way. There are many stories, I mean, without doubt children recall what they call past lives, but I think that is simply a psychological experience. I don't know whether you would agree that it's part of the collective unconscious, you see, and that we can go back into the past, and when it's canonised in a strong spiritual tradition like in Tibet, then I think there can be a quite positive influence, you see, on the future birth, but from the spirit through the psyche, you see, and onto the physical. But I don't call it a rebirth in the ordinary sense, you see. Q I believe that ultimately any transfer of information will be non-material. Q Because you were making the distinction between the biological and the psychological.

[31:30]

K Yes. Q So it's as if in the system of mechanistic science it would boil down to the genes and DNA and so on, but what we know is that in about seven years none of the matter which was constituting the body is there, and yet you continue to be what you are, but the carrier cannot be matter. We're talking about forms, patterns, order, which is intangible. So there's always the element that continues to organise matter, but it's intangible. It cannot be relocated in the material substrate anyway. Isn't that what you'd call the subtle body? K Yes, I suppose it belongs to the subtle body, yes. Q But it's true even for what we would call biological and material. K Yes. Q Yeah, for very physical processes, the organising principle is always there. K The organising principle, even in... Q And I think even in Aristotle, the anima in a plant is what gives it its organised form.

[32:30]

I mean, the matter doesn't organise its form, there's this other spiritual principle, the soul, the anima. Q I don't see any essential difference between something that could carry on the Akashic records or something that carries on the very substance of the body. K I think one possible key to explaining the personal aspect of reincarnation is that we are, and I feel that we all are, a multiple incarnation. But as this particular pattern of energy, both physical and psychic energy that I am, I resonate with life patterns, not only here in this room and in this particular space, but also throughout space-time. But in Stan's terms, I have a co-existence that extends throughout space-time, so that

[33:31]

I resonate with some other pattern of energy and some other time that has a like, central and world-like experience to what I have in bed with me right now. Q That's an interesting idea. K Then I would have possibly the illusion of a personal reincarnation. Q I think I could see. Q That would then apply also to the phenomenon of the tulku, because I was thinking in terms of, it's a kind of a clear sentience, you know, you just feel that there's a resonance between those certain objects which have had their function and their associations and they're linked in terms of what you make much clearer than I was just thinking of, like the clairvoyant sees the future or sees into a person's mind. So this child just feels, without necessarily being a physical recognition of the things which he touched in a past life, it's a bit mechanistic and materialistic finally, you know, in its explanation. I feel there has to be a more subtle understanding. Q I think this is the way we're constructed.

[34:31]

For example, if I'm in a depressed mood, I seem to resonate with all my other past times in this life, and even with other people, I attract them, and if I'm euphoric then I resonate with that. So if I've been on a spiritual path in this life, I'm getting suddenly resonated with that. K And in a sense the past is always present to us, isn't it? It's not simply past. It's, as you say, as I mean, in a psychedelic experience you go right back into the past, but you realise it's present. Q I think that the critical issue is the mechanism that creates boundaries in something that is boundless, that is without boundaries. So for example, in the present situation, if within a network which is unified, I would sort out something and call it mine, and this is me, this part of the universe is me, and the rest of it is not me. And I think what happens in the karmic realm is that I take part of the collective

[35:35]

unconscious, these stories of other people, and say, this is more mine than the rest. It's like in some sense it's a freeing from the kind of Cartesian-Newtonian position, but in terms of a real total mystical insight, it's still a limitation. K Yeah, and that's very consistent with physics, because it's simply the fact that things do resonate. So the energy will resonate in a certain way. But Paul, what did you mean by an illusion of former lives? Q Well, in the same way as we seem to have this illusion that we could find here, we have this illusion that goes on. Q In a holographic universe, what meaning can you give to past and future? Q It's just a question in the same direction.

[36:36]

It seems like there are several levels that we're talking about, and in the way the conversation has come to the level of the whole or the universal mind or the archetypal level, in which there's resonance that continues or patterns, that moves away, in a sense, from the more specific question of whether there is, in some way for us as human beings, some death-rebirth process, which even if it's limited in the kind of illusion that this room is limited in, whether that really happens with people or not. How does the Buddhist understand reincarnation? Q It's answered on several levels. I can't do it in twelve, but I can do it in about a minute, if you will. Q The first image used by Nagasena in the sutras that's very common is that of a seed,

[37:46]

to take an apple seed and plant it and have a tree grow and fruit and bear another apple and open and there's a second seed. Is that the same as the first? Not exactly, nor is it exactly different, one being the cause for another. Or to light a candle in the lamp and then blow out the first candle in the flame and the second is neither totally different nor the same as the first, but one caused by another. That's the most limited and common expression. And then in other texts it speaks about what you were referring to, that there really is no such thing as reincarnation, because there's no separate individual, there's no separate. So it's just a play of illusion, that birth doesn't exist except in a play of elements. The best answer, there's a very short one, someone asked the Buddha which was true and he said, well if it's true that you'll be reborn, how would you live?

[38:48]

And the person said, well I'd try to be kind and generous so that I'd get a good rebirth and pay attention and become wise. And he said, if there is no rebirth, then how would you live? And he gave the same answer. And the Buddha said, so you see it's not important that you have a view of it. So that's just it. The Buddha is so practical. And Kamadhi, do you want to tell me the story about the woman with the medium? I think you should tell it. The after-luck of her husband. All right. Her end on humour, yes, it's lovely. It's a very, well it makes me laugh every time I tell it. The story is, it comes in Philip Toynbee's rather interesting book, The End of a Journey. He was Arnold Toynbee's son, you know, and he had kept a diary at the end of his life and wrote this up. But apparently they were having a discussion around the problem of rebirth and reincarnation came up and somebody said, told this story, that a woman lost her husband and she decided

[39:53]

she would try to get in touch with him through a medium. So she contacted a medium and the voice of her husband came over and so she asked him, are you happy? He said, yes, I'm quite happy. She said, what do you do? He said, well, we run about a good deal and then we eat and then we have sex. And then he said, we run about, what do you do after that? She said, well, we run about again and then we eat and then we have sex. And she said, gracious, I didn't know heaven was like that. And he said, oh no, I'm not in heaven. I'm a rabbit in South Australia. So

[40:54]

I think we ought to have a minute's silence now. And then we'll have a... I'd like Brother Raymond to do a beautiful chant at the end of it. Let's have a little time.

[41:07]

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