So we have this simple story, basically simple, about the complicated side of our life and the uncomplicated part of our life. Do you know the word complicated, Tasha? Complicated. So one day, the great monk, Cloud Cliff, oh, here comes Tayo. The great monk, Cloud Cliff, was sweeping the ground. And, in other words, he was in... On last Wednesday, I suggested that this part of the story of sweeping the ground refers to the part of our life where we're involved in complicated relationships, which are so complicated that we can't help but actually, on some level, if you look carefully, go against Buddhist precepts.

[01:25]

Because We're so busy and distracted by our own perception process. So he's sweeping the ground. His mind's busy. His mind's busy because he's living in the world of objects, the world of objective knowledge. And when the mind is involved in seeing objects, it is disturbed. And when the mind is disturbed, it violates Buddha's precepts. His brother comes up and says, you're violating Buddhist precepts. Your mind is agitated. You're dealing with objects. Etc. And Clodcliffe says, you should know that there's one who is not busy. There's one who does not... have objects of thought.

[02:29]

And therefore, not the least bit disturbed, therefore doesn't give rise to the slightest thought, and does not ever violate Buddha's precepts. And then, Brother Da Wu enlightened way, says, then are there two moons? And Cloudcliffe raises his broom. I think of it this way. But maybe he did it this way. And maybe he did it this way. I don't know. I think of it this way. And said, which moon is this? And in our translation, I think it says that it doesn't say. it doesn't say in this one, it says that Da Wu immediately stopped. Does it say that in the other one?

[03:34]

Yes, Da Wu immediately stopped. So in the actual, as I mentioned last week, in the actual text that I have, in the beginning, it says that Da Wu immediately stopped. And then right away it says that Xuan... Shah said, this is precisely the second moon. And Yin Men said, when the butler sees the maid, he takes care, or the butler watches the maid politely. So I don't know why Tom Cleary, when he was translating this, took that part out and put it at the end of the presentation, but in the original that I had, it was right at the beginning there.

[04:38]

So... So maybe before getting into... So one way to go at this point is to look at the story some more and see if you have any questions about the philosophy and psychology of the story as I just presented it. And then later go into the additional comments by Shrensha and Yunnan and the verse where Shrensha and Yunmen are brought in, in terms of the snake handler of elephant bone crag and all that. Maybe it's best to stay with the story a little longer before we go into that. And also I just wanted to say, which I usually don't tell you how you should be with these stories, but I just wanted to tell you that someone might suggest to you that when you study these stories, you suspend judgment.

[05:54]

and to some sense lighten up on your tendency or mind to try to grasp what these stories are about. If you try to grasp these stories, then you might think that this is all some kind of conspiracy to drive you nuts. These stories are like a great ball of fire. If you touch them, you will get hurt. However, If you don't walk around these stories and keep close to them, you'll freeze to death. These stories are the sun of spiritual life. But if you don't have the right relationship with these stories, you may not be able to use their true, healthy warmth. So again, when I say suspend judgment, I don't mean that you don't judge. Like you go to a movie, suspending judgment doesn't mean you don't judge.

[06:58]

It means you sit there and enjoy the show, I guess. Your mind is judging all the time. You don't stop it. But, you know, what does suspending judgment mean to you? Hang in there. Hang in there? Hang in there. Hang it in mid-air. Yeah. Hang it in mid-air. Hang your judgment in mid-air. That's where it's operating anyway. And the other thing is watch out for this tendency to try to grasp what these stories are about. Be like a wind bell. Let these stories blow on you from various directions through the study. Do you have any problems with that? Just a suggestion to you. Yeah. When you asked us to suspend judgment, do you... I'm not really asking you to. I just would suggest. I'm not totally sure what that means myself, so is that also possibly implying that we should suspend asking questions?

[08:07]

No. As a matter of fact, the reason why people don't ask much questions is because they're into judgment a lot, and they usually think their questions... They're not sure their questions are appropriate. So you might ask more questions, just like you did. Can I ask a question? What was the difference in which way you held up the broomstick? What's the difference? Why did you express them? I felt like, you know, you'd be sweeping like this, right? And you might just go like this. Which broom is this? Maybe that's cooler, actually. Okay. Kind of like, there's two ways to make the peace signal, right? One way is like this, the other one's like this. Some way this is cooler. Like the guy who made that movie, the guy who made that movie, Boys in the Hood, he said he did like this, peace. Maybe this is too much in certain areas. Just kind of, just peace.

[09:09]

So maybe this is cooler, actually. Which broom is this? But I sort of went for the more dramatic one of which broom is this? Just my feeling. What do you think? Catch. I was wondering whether or not... I didn't throw it because he wasn't looking. Later. Yes? I thought it might have had something more to do with the commentary in here where it gets into who's exposing who. Just a hunch. What's the hunch? Meaningless. Not nothing. No. No. Okay, yes. You read the story this time when Awakened Way said, in our translation here, it says, if so, then there's a second moon.

[10:17]

But you stated it just a minute ago as a question. Then is there a second moon? Which, through a whole other... I think that's the way you read it. So what's the difference? What's the difference between sort of saying that that's a conclusion you drew and asking a question? Actually, maybe, I'm sorry I didn't bring the text to see whether I have any more justification to read it that way than the other way. Maybe this is more literally true, but I feel... More like, even if you don't draw the logical conclusion, which you might or might not do, maybe that's right, that that's a logical conclusion of what he said. But still, you might ask the question, mightn't you? Mightn't you think, well, does that mean there's another world from this one, this busy one? You tell me, I see this busyness, I see this violation of precepts.

[11:21]

And you tell me that there's a realm where this isn't so. Then is there another truth? Another world? But there's also the Buddhist teaching that there are two worlds. There's a conventional world and an ultimate world. In the conventional world, we have objects of thought. We know things. We have opinions. There's self. Did we call your name, Andrew? Yeah, we did. There's self. There's other. There's believing inherent existence. There's all that. That's one world we live in. And there's another world which can be called the ultimate world in the sense that if you follow through on this world where we cling to things, where we think things exist in some class of existence, where we or we believe things belong to some category of existential reality, if you follow through on any of that, all the way to the end, you reach an ultimate world, an ultimate of that world, which is just the ultimate of that world, it's just the extremity of all the implications of that world, and there, there are no things.

[12:45]

It reminds me, I was going to Xerox that article, that cartoon that I talked about on Sunday where the guy says, Carol is a process, not an event. Yes? Can you give me a picture of this ultimate world where there are other things? Is that possible? The only picture I can give you of the ultimate world is the conventional world. But what I would tell you is that if you take anything in your life, anything, that you think exists, or even something that you suspect exists, or even take something that you think doesn't exist, thinking that something doesn't, like if you think, for example, let's say you think, I'm not a good teacher. And if you would take that thing which you think exists called I'm not a good teacher and you follow that through into the end and we discuss that to the end, you would finally not be able to find such a thing as me not being a good teacher.

[13:59]

Like, you know, I remember one of the Socratic dialogues that I like is, I think it's called, is it called Lyceum or Lycia or something like that? It's about, he's talking about friendships. Anybody know that one? And he's talking to the boys around... The boys are together and he comes and talks to them. One of them says, hey, Socrates, what's friendship? He starts talking to this kid about what friendship is. He said, well, if it's this, then it would be this and this and this, and then that doesn't work. And then he says, what about this and this and this? They follow all the implications of what friendship might be. And none of them work out. And at the end of the conversation... You don't know anything more about friendship, but you know less about friendship in a way, but you know all the things you ever could imagine about friendship won't hold up. So it's the same thing about a person. If I'm really interested in you, I won't be able to find you.

[15:04]

I can only find you and get a hold of you. when my interest is limited, when my interest goes all the way, I won't be able to find you. Or another way to put it is, if I get rid of everything I think you are, then something new about you may be revealed. So I can't tell you what it looks like, the ultimate world looks like, because it doesn't look like something different from this world. It's just this world when you follow through on this world all the way. So if you think that something exists, then, you know, please bring it and show it to us. For me, that's a terrifying idea.

[16:06]

Well, what do I say? I can't help, you know, sometimes the way my mind works. But anyway, that's the right answer. That's the right response, in a way. You don't have to be terrified, but it's sort of a... It's a normal response. You don't have to be that way, but it's a normal response, because it means that everything that you are holding on to, if you really looked at it, it would slip through your fingers. So that could be terrifying. However, it's not terrifying when it actually happens, it's just terrifying when you think about it. Or it's terrifying right after it happens, and you jump back from it. and go back to your usual habits, then you can get scared too. If you make a thing out of the ultimate world, it would be frightening, to say the least. And different people have different ways of being afraid of it.

[17:13]

But when it actually happens, it's not frightening at all. As a matter of fact, it is the great relief. It is the basic principle of liberation. The ultimate of everything is liberation from it. When you reach, when you completely study something, you'll be liberated from it. Just like I was saying on Sunday, if you admit you're upside down completely, you immediately flip up. Is this like A is not A? When A, the fact A is A, it means when you thoroughly study A. And when you thoroughly study A, all the way, without switching to some other topic because you're getting kind of bored studying just this one thing, then you realize that the fact that A is A implies not A.

[18:26]

So if you study this busy mind thoroughly, if you completely immerse yourself in this busy, confused, precept-breaking mind, this other mind, you know, what do you call it, fills you. What do you mean by precept-breaking? Well, for example, killing, stealing, lying, intoxicating, misusing sexuality, slander, etc. All those precepts are broken by this busy mind. Right here in this story? Is that what you said? Right here, well, right here all the time, you know, if you look carefully at what these precepts are about, In other words, you don't have to actually kill something to violate the precept of not killing. If you actually think about killing something, that's a violation of this precept from the point of view of Buddha's mind. If you think of these precepts as pointing to your enlightened mind, then the mind which is thinking of killing violates that precept.

[19:34]

Of course, it's much worse to actually kill something than to think of killing it. Of course. But before you kill something, you think of killing it. So from the point of view of the ground of your mind, always before there's killing, there's thought of killing. But if the mind is completely calm, it never thinks of killing. It never does kill. However, if you think, if your mind is disturbed, you can also think, you can think of killing, but you can also think of not killing. Thinking of not killing violates the precept of not killing, because your mind's still agitated. And all you've got to do is turn the dial the other way, and you're thinking of killing. And then you could actually be projected into doing killing, because you can't necessarily stop yourself sometimes. But sometimes the thought of killing is balanced by the thought of not killing. But the mind is agitated. And again, it's just a sitting duck. or I'm just a sitting duck, or my mind's switching from killing to not killing, my mind's agitated, I'm easily pushed over into confusion and distraction, and I get overwhelmed pretty soon.

[20:43]

I don't know what I'm doing, and then I could just... What I do in that state is... I don't have my feet on the ground anymore. I can't remember my bodhisattva vow to live for the benefit of all beings because I'm so upset. That's what I mean by being dizzy. And in fact, The mind, there is a mind which is always disturbed like that. Sometimes it's so disturbed that we actually do things like hurt people and actually physically feel things and actually verbally speak a lie. But when your mind's in chaos and you're not caught up with it and you don't admit it, then these precepts are all broken. When you think of yourself as separate from somebody else, you violate these precepts. And there is a part of our mind which is doing this basically all the time. But at the fullness, at the extreme study of this mind, you forget this mind and you are totally filled and this mind realizes and is simultaneous with this mind which doesn't have objects

[22:00]

is not disturbed, is completely unbusy, never violates the precepts. And when those two minds are integrated, the busy mind is transformed to some extent. However, the Buddhas, even though their busy mind is transformed by integration with this completely calm, non-dual mind, even though they're integrated with that, still the Buddhas notice that they violate the precepts. So Buddhas continue to confess all the time. However, their confession of their error is their enlightenment. Because in fact, when you make an error, it's enlightened to know that it's an error. It's also enlightened to know that it actually doesn't have any inherent existence, but its appearance is error. And you still confess the appearance of error. And only because we believe in the substantial existence of our errors do we keep them to ourselves.

[23:04]

By confessing our errors, we start to realize their emptiness. But the strange thing is that the people who think that the errors are real hide them from themselves and others. And the people who believe that their errors are real hide them so much that they don't think they make any errors. Whereas the people who realize thoroughly that error has no inherent existence, they don't hide their errors, and they're willing to admit that they're constantly screwing up. Funny, huh? This is just what I say. It's not some kind of reality or anything. Just me talking. going to have an inviolable principle that there is no killing. Would that be breaking... Inviolable principle that there is no killing? It's a precept. There is no killing. Okay.

[24:08]

In the Buddha's precept, there is no killing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Let's just preamble to my question. Well, I want to play with the language. The Buddhist precept says that it's not so much that there is no killing, like there's this category, that sounds like there's a category of existence, there's this thing called killing, there isn't any. The precept, you know, it's more like life is not to kill. That's what life really is. It's not like there isn't such a thing as killing because that would deny the appearance of killing. Yeah. And killing does appear in this world. So we don't want to put the appearance of killing into the category of non-existence. So I think I would be more comfortable with you saying life is not killed. Or life is not killing. That's what really life is. And there is a precept called not to kill. are not killing. But the Buddha doesn't put killing into the category of non-existence, like there isn't such a thing, because there is such an appearance.

[25:13]

It's an appearance. It exists, but not in any category you can imagine. It only exists as appearances. In other words, it only exists as criminal activity, as horror, as pain. And that's an important existence, and we recognize that existence, and we very much do not ever want to get involved in it. But we don't go around saying it belongs in the category of non-existence. Rather, it belongs in the category of existing as an appearance. But we do not get involved in that appearance. We also try not to get involved in the other appearance of the appearance of not killing. The appearance means the thinking of killing, and the appearance of not killing means thinking of not killing. In other words, agitated mind in either of those appearances, we want to avoid those extremes and find this middle way where we have a life which is not the kill. My question was, would it be violating the precept or breaking the precept for me to think of someone else, or to recognize this in the apparent world?

[26:28]

Yes. I would suggest to you that any movement of your mind, it violates all the precepts. As soon as your mind moves, you violate all precepts. And why is the language specific? Pardon? Why is the language specific? To give some structure to emptiness. This gives you some structure to work with. We could have a million precepts, too. We just had ten, you know. Those are nice, those are good, nice ten. We could have many, many more, which would more finely structure emptiness. To give you some way to deal with emptiness, To give you some way to deal with the vastness of your radiant existence, we give you these precepts. And then stillness is the function of emptiness. Want to know what vastness is like? Stillness and silence and peacefulness.

[27:34]

That's the function of it. Want to know what the shape of it is or the structure of it? It's Buddha's precepts. There's no killing there. There's no taking what's not given. Everything that happens there is given. Nobody takes anything. There's no lying there. Nothing, no lying. Nothing's above or below anything else. Everything's praised, but there's no kind of like putting anything down or up. This is the way things are shaped. And you can take ten, but you could increase the structure. It can be infinitely filled out. But this is just ten for starters. That's nice. You know, because we have ten fingers. If we were built differently, you know, probably there'd be a different number. What? There's ten commandments. Is there something about this number ten? This decimal system's a big deal. There was only five. Huh? There was only five. There was only five, and then there were six. Why was the structure necessary, adding on the structure to Buddha's structure?

[28:44]

Well, you know, like when Buddha first taught counting, when Buddha first taught meditation on the body, he taught following the breath. He said, you know, when she meditates on the body, she knows when she inhales that she's inhaling, and when she exhales, she knows she's exhaling. And then later they invented counting. And around the time they invented counting, the decimal system had become popular throughout Asia, so they counted to ten. It's just, you know, people choose these things and we go along with it. Do you want to do 13? Okay. But, you know, 10's nice. Just think, because you can do all these neat things with it. Maybe nowadays we should switch to what do you call it? What is it? Day 16? Yes, Miriam? What about feelings like compassion and love? Where does that come in? Where does... The feeling of compassion coming?

[29:44]

There must be something about the mind that is not breaking the precepts. Yes, there is. Definitely. That's called... It's always there. You mean something about the busy mind? What about these feelings that we like to have, like love and compassion? What part of the mind... Well, you mean like feelings like you like people? Yeah. Well, that's in the realm of thinking that there's somebody else. Then you can have a positive feeling about people. Just like you can have a negative feeling about people. But I'm saying having positive feelings about people is just as busy as having negative feelings about people. It's still dualistic. It's a lot nicer. And as a matter of fact, if you want to get into meditating and learning about how your mind works... it's better to, it's good to do an exercise called developing loving-kindness.

[30:46]

Because if you're angry, it calms your mind, and as your mind becomes calmer, you'll be more able to admit that your mind's always busy. You have to, most people cannot admit how busy their mind is until they have some composure. That's my experience. It's too horrible to admit how busy your mind is if you don't have some stability. Because your mind's already busy. I mean, your mind, our minds, I propose to you, our minds are extremely busy. Our busy mind is like top, everybody's got a totally busy, constantly busy mind. But if you practice some, if you're somewhat successful at practicing training your mind and calming your mind, then you can admit how busy it is. Without that, most people can't admit it. And, yes? I want to go back to what you said about suspending judgment. Yes. Is that different than... What's the relation between suspending judgment and trying to understand what you're saying?

[31:56]

Suspending judgment is a way to understand, is one strategy for understanding these stories. We are trying to understand these stories. That makes it sound as if it's a roundabout way of exercising judgment. Suspend judgment so you can make a truer judgment. Yeah. Or suspend judgment means you notice your mind's judging, but you say, okay, my mind's judging that way. That's all. You shouldn't deny your judgment. Your judging mind is not going to stop. So suspending, I think that Fusay is nice. Suspending means just put it out there in space with other things. And just let it do its thing. And watch it function. Watch it judge. Watch it say, oh, that's nice, that's nice, this is true, this is false. And then if you just watch it do that, you can also ask questions simultaneously while your mind is judging stuff. You can also keep asking questions. So you can inquire simultaneously with constant judging going on. Doesn't that reduce what you're saying to simply exercise to practice the spending judgment?

[33:02]

Pardon? Doesn't that reduce the content of what you're saying to simply exercise that helps me practice the spending judgment? I got a little lost there. Well, is there any significance to what you're saying? If the point of what you're saying to me is for me to watch how I react to it, that I definitely would like I would definitely I think that's really good is to always watch how you react to what you hear that's very good okay so what next well that's my question is that enough or is there is that enough see is that enough to see how you respond to things Suppose I notice that I can't make sense of a certain thing, either in this case or in what you said. I notice that. Right.

[34:03]

At that time, for that state, that's about as good as you can do. A few minutes later, you can make sense of something else. You're not going to keep not making sense indefinitely. Your mind's going to switch into some other realm where you say, oh, now I make sense of that other thing. Or you might even... what now you don't make sense of, later you do make sense of. So some of the things, sometimes I'm talking to myself or other people, and sometimes stuff clicks, and you watch that happen. But, do we understand that at that time, that the mind is operating in the realm of objective knowledge, and you're operating in the realm of knowing things and having objects, and do you notice that that in that realm, that the mind is disturbed. And these are all things you could notice. And the more we notice these things, I propose, the closer you are to liberation from these things.

[35:07]

And liberation from these things is the same as allowing yourself to feel integrated with the realm of your mind which doesn't know things, and is never disturbed, and doesn't violate these precepts. It's not built to know things, objectively, but it is direct contact with an inconceivable realm of reality. A realm of reality where things are working with no with no argument with our conceivable equipment and no going along with it. It's just another realm. But it is a realm of our life, which is very important to us. It's the realm of direct experience, as a matter of fact. And it's organic bliss. and we want it back, we want it to be reintegrated in our life.

[36:09]

Does this make sense? Yes? Isn't watching yourself not understand or not being able to get a grasp on what's being discussed and continually having that happen, isn't it sort of like getting a little hit of enlightenment right there? You don't have anything to hold on to. You're floating out there and pretty soon you realize you haven't died of it. You haven't scraped yourself. Is that a little hit of enlightenment? Yes. Also... It's a little hit of the practice of enlightenment. It's a little hit of Buddha's way, mainly. When you sit in meditation, when you people sit in meditation, do you people know what's happening? I mean, to some extent you do know what's happening. I mean, you think you know, right? You think you're in the tent. Right? You think, I'm in the tent. You think, it's Tuesday.

[37:13]

You think, I'm a good Zen student. Or you think, I'm an average Zen student. Or you think, I'm a below average Zen student. Or you think, today I'm better than I was yesterday. You do that kind of stuff, right? Well, I mean, do you? It goes on. It goes on, yeah. That kind of stuff happens. I've heard about it. Okay? But sometimes what occurs to people's minds is they think, well, I actually don't know what's going on. But that's another kind of thinking that goes on. At some deeper level when you're sitting there, I propose to you, you're just sitting there and you don't know what's going on. You're not involved in that at all. You're just sitting there. And if people were looking at you, they would think, they might think, I don't know if these people know what's going on or not, but they are just sitting there very peacefully. The person sitting there may be, who you're looking at, say, this person's sitting there so peacefully, that person may be sitting there thinking, I'm not sitting here peacefully at all. Or they might be sitting here thinking, I feel fairly peaceful, but actually I notice that the very fact that I think of this disturbs my mind.

[38:16]

That I feel the agitation due to the function of my mind is agitation itself. But I also have a direct intuition that I'm not moving at all. I'm quite sure of that. When I say that to myself, I feel that's true. You know? I feel that is really true. I'm not moving. Who's saying that? I happen to have some text here which backed me up. But I'm not looking at that text, although I appreciate they agree with me. I actually feel like it's true that I'm not moving. I never did move. I never will move. And the I is extra. I just say I. I mean what's true is not moving. I think that's true. I don't know that. I can't prove that. As a matter of fact, everything I think of about to prove it or not prove it is just more noise and agitation, and that seems to be going on all the time. I don't know what's going on, but I don't need to. But even though I don't need to, I do go around all the time knowing things.

[39:21]

I do know things all the time, and I don't stop. And I'm never going to stop, unless I basically, you know, get into some special yogic state, or, you know, go into certain trances, or the same thing, or go unconscious. Or, of course, or die. Lee? Oh, this is the... That you know you don't move is just another judgment, right? Those are all thoughts you're having. Right. None of them are spiritual. That's right. You're just talking. Just talking, yeah. But the truth, knowing the truth of that I don't move is not just talking. No. It's a thought when I say it, but my certainty is not a thought. That's what you say. That's what I think. Oh, thank you so much. But before I read this... Can I ask a question?

[40:27]

Yes. Mahin. How can we actually get to that emptiness without a teacher? Yes, you can get to that emptiness without a teacher. You can. How? How? How we practice, how we train, how we not use it. Well, one way is when you breathe in, know that you breathe in. When you breathe out, know that you breathe out. And know that completely. Every breath, know completely, all the way, every moment of breathing out, know that you breathe out. Every moment of breathing in, know that you breathe in. And if you do that completely thoroughly, completely wholeheartedly, and drop everything else, but just doing that, which you're doing anyway, right? You're always breathing out or breathing in. Or sometimes there's a little pause there at the end or before the beginning where you seem to be, you're not sure which, also do those two times too. If you do that completely and give your whole life to that, you will realize emptiness of breath or body or whatever.

[41:35]

Then, when you realize emptiness, Then you need a teacher. You can go to the teacher and say, I realized emptiness. And see if the teacher can recognize that you did. If the teacher recognizes that you did, then you'll know even more deeply that you did. I don't understand that. Pardon? I don't understand that at all. That person said that I don't understand. Emptiness. Yeah. Why? Well, like this. There's a story which I told over. The way we're built, strangely enough, just part of our psychic equipment, is that the way we're built, we reach autonomy through connection. Well, then I would say to you that when you realize something, if you're sure and you think you don't need anybody, okay?

[42:52]

What do I say then? I say, that's when you need a teacher. When you don't think, when you finally don't think you need a teacher, that's when you need a teacher. And that's when the person thinks, finally, I don't need a teacher. That's the exact time to go see a teacher, because then if you go see a teacher at that time, you'll find out something very surprising will happen. Maybe, if you're lucky, if you find somebody who really loves you, they'll really surprise you at that time, because you have set yourself up Now the other time to go see a teacher, which is when you think, I can never understand emptiness. I'll never be able to practice without a teacher. I'm so dependent. I don't have any ability to do this by myself. I'm not an autonomous sovereign being. I probably should just give up and be miserable. That's another time to go see a teacher. Those two times are the most important times because those are the two times when you set yourself up so that when you get a reflection at those times,

[43:58]

The room really opens up. So you, I, each of us has to completely settle ourselves on ourselves, and that's realizing emptiness. Settle ourselves on our breathing. Settle ourselves on our pain, completely. That only you can do. Teacher cannot do that. And when you have done that, or when you have decided, I cannot do that, then you go to the teacher and you get a reflection and the room gets much bigger. And if you're right, and you really have settled yourself on yourself, you understand more fully, I have really settled myself on myself. That's just something funny about us. If you know you need the teacher to get reflection, then you don't need to go see the teacher. You need to work more on yourself until the point when you say, now I don't need the teacher. Then you go to the teacher. You can also go in between during those times, in between those extremes also, but those are the two most important times to go. It's part of this dynamic, contradictory nature of being, of human beings, that we have this kind of quality.

[45:10]

So most of us, in some sense, at this stage of our practice, or a lot of the stage of our practice, all we need teachers for is to cheer us on to completely follow through on our busy trips, to get us to completely follow through on our activity, on our karma. to completely accept our karmic activity to the end, teach her to root us on, come on, do it, come on, be yourself, all the way, honestly, be yourself. Then when you complete that, you say, ah, I made it, I'm released by admitting who I am. Then again, you need it. But also, if you think maybe you're there and you're not sure, you can also check it out then. If you think you're not, you can still check it out, but if you think you're not, you're not. But still, it's good to check it out. Because sometimes the way you're not is, what do you say, the way you're not, what do you call it, I think, oh, I'm not quite there, but actually, I think I'm not quite there, but actually I think just a few feet more feet and I would be there.

[46:20]

But actually you say, well, I'm not there, and I think, the teacher will say, yes, that's true, you've got a little bit further to go, and the teacher says, oh, yes, true, you're not there, what about this? Oh, I didn't look at that. But you make it possible by presenting that, you see. If you don't present that, the person can't do this. It's not like the person has some great ability. You set it up. You do all the work. Yeah? When you said the teacher was surprised, did it expand a little or not? I'm right here. Thank you for saving me, Lloyd. So Wang Bo says, first learn how to be entirely unreceptive to sensation arising from external forms, thereby purging your bodies and minds of receptivity to externals.

[47:35]

In other words, be completely unreceptive to externals. So the way I interpret this is to be completely unreceptive to externals means recognize the one who is not involved in externals. This is kind of... another way of talking. I kind of think that this works for some people. Some people who like to bludgeon themselves. Some people like that kind of stuff. In other words, rather than just say, recognize the one who's not involved and is totally unreceptive to externals, tell yourself, don't be involved in externals. Purge yourself of receptivity to externals. If you purge yourself of receptivity to externals, your mind will be spontaneously at peace. This koan is saying rather than do something to purge yourself of receptivity to externals, it says you should know that there's one who's already purged of receptivity to externals.

[48:49]

I don't know if Wong Bo ever talked like that or just translated or just said it that way. But anyway, there is this thing, you know, in Buddhist teaching of guard your senses. Guard the sense doors. And that sounds kind of like Buddhist, Buddhist kind of go, those senses attack me. In a sense, that's true that they do that. But another way to understand it is don't let, don't let the sense world be something outside. Don't see all this as external. But if you try to get in there and jack your mind around and stop it from seeing these as externals, that will just make you feel real sick. And you'll get kind of like frazzled from trying to do that. I've seen people try that. It'll give you a headache real fast. Don't you first have to see the externals before you don't see the externals? And you've already done that, and you're doing it all day long.

[49:55]

You're seeing the externals, aren't you? So in fact, you're right. You do have to do that first, and you do do that first. You're always doing it all day long. I can go up to you and say, Sally, glad to see you're still operating that way. You're seeing externals, aren't you? And if you say no... then we can talk about that. Next it says, second, learn not to pay attention to any distinction between this and that arising in your sensations. Same thing. Learn, learn not to pay attention to the distinctions. In other words, you're going to be making these distinctions, learn not to pay attention to it. Now, I don't like that because, actually it's kind of nice. Because if you're making a distinction to learn not to pay attention to it, you can only do that if you've paid attention to it.

[50:55]

So in a way he's trying to say, get in there and notice this and then don't pay attention to it. But again, I would suggest to you, if you notice how your mind makes distinctions, yet by paying attention to what you're doing, you'll notice your mind does make distinctions. And if you notice that completely, you will stop paying attention to your mind making distinctions because you'll forget that your mind's making distinctions just by being so intimate with it. So I'm going to be able to reinterpret these all in accordance with this. And so that... But you can also... Another way to do this is follow these instructions as though this is something you can do. Try to do it wholeheartedly and at the extreme of your effort and your complete failure to follow these instructions it will have the same result. If you try wholeheartedly to not be a human being it will be the same result as if you completely admit that you're human. The point is to be completely sincere about any kind of practice you're doing.

[52:03]

So, sweep sincerely. But he's suggesting that if somebody, if you're sweeping sincerely, and we should sweep sincerely, you know, if you're going to do something, don't do it like half-heartedly just because it's empty. Do it as though it were the most important thing in your life. It's not easy to do that. Like, you know, for me, I do dishes just before this class, right? And some people say, you know, ask me why I'm doing dishes just before the class. Isn't that awfully busy? Etc. And in fact, you know, not only do I do dishes before class, but sometimes I do something before I do dishes. And sometimes I do something before that. And sometimes I do have a real busy day before I come to this class. Right up to the class, except there's a little space between dishes usually in this class. I go back and there's a possibility to take a little nap before class. In fact, I'd like to take a little nap right now.

[53:07]

And sometimes I do take a nap. And it's nice to take a nap. But tonight when I got back home, I thought, no, let's see, I have about 15, 20 minutes between once I got back to the house until the class. And I thought, now what if this was the last 15 or 20 minutes I had? and I'm gonna be busy for the next 15 or 20 minutes. Yes, Lee, are you stretching? No, I'm not raising my hand completely. Do you think maybe that we're all doing what we're doing completely? Do I think we are? Yeah. I think so. And that's where I'd like to meet you.

[54:15]

But although you're doing what you're doing completely, I may not have the courage to meet you there. So that's my job, is to meet the Lee that's doing his thing completely. But then what will happen between Rev and Lee? Yikes. I might be wedded to you forever. We all are, but can we admit it? The ultimate... You mean all of us? Each and every one of us? Well, it's okay for the people in this class, right? But what about the other people that aren't here? What about the people who aren't here who think they're better than us? We've got to be close to them forever, too? Those people who are completely... Huh?

[55:18]

We already are, yeah. And that's exactly... The question I wanted to ask, when, oh, you say there, or I hear you saying, is putting an extra layer on top of what your understanding is of how... Well, maybe not. Maybe he's just, you know, like, what do you call it? He's just, like, trying to push my buttons. from such centuries away. And he's just like, he's like really joking, he's saying, okay you guys, you guys, you unbusy people, stop being busy. He's not saying recognize that there's somebody who's already busy, he's saying stop being busy. Stop your mind from paying attention to distinctions you make, like the distinction between me and Lee. Stop, no, stop paying attention to the difference between you and Lee. He's telling me to do that. I can't, but he's telling me to do it. He's telling me to do all these totally involuntary things. He's telling me to voluntarily stop being receptive to you people as sensory experiences. In other words, he's telling joke after joke.

[56:20]

So that's how he gives Donna to come and ask these questions, because he's saying obviously the opposite of what I'm saying. Well, my understanding of it is that's exactly what he's doing, is do that until you absolutely are positive that it's impossible. That's one way to do it. Mm-hmm. Well, it's not such a big problem, but what about these people who come to the door asking you to understand their religious views, which are entirely different. For example? Well, Christian, yes, okay, Jehovah's Witnesses. My sister's a Jehovah's Witness. Well, yeah, my next-door neighbor's a Jehovah's Witness. Quad trade? Quad trade. Actually, I'm very attached to Mrs. Rogers and don't want to twit. Is Mrs. Rogers related to Mr. Rogers? I found out Mr. Rogers for his name. It's Herbie. Herbie? Yeah. So what happens when Mrs. Rogers comes over to visit?

[57:34]

Is that what you're asking about? Well, yeah. I mean, I know what happens. You know, she walks in and she sees Stacy's altar, and she sees my altar, and she sees Antoine doing prostrations in front of the altar and all this, and she just thinks that we are going to hell. And I don't know what to do to help her. And she doesn't know what to do to help you. Exactly. There's an impasse there. It's called, what do you call that kind of dance? It's called the impasse. The impasse, right? Let's do the impasse. We're all beings with a different agenda. What? We're all beings with a different agenda. You're right. You and Mrs. Rogers have got to deal with these beings who have different agendas from each other. Well, we meet over gumbo. That's not how we do it. Which is not an entirely terrible way to... Aren't your agendas the same, though? Well, my agenda... It depends. I think my agenda and my daughter's agenda are really different.

[58:35]

But, you know... I think my agenda is much different than Mrs. Rogers. Jehovah's Witnesses are positive. They are out to save all beings. But what if they're out to kill all beings? Well, I don't know what they're out for in the larger sense, but as far as their... Most of them, I think, they've got some good news, actually. I've heard their news. It's good news. The news they've got is good news. I like their news. But what if your daughter or your wife or something had some bad news? Still, you're connected to them forever, so you go down with the ship, right? If they've got different agendas and they're all screwed up, it's your problem, too. But there's somebody who's not busy with all this stuff, folks. And that one is just sitting there. Hi, Marjorie.

[59:38]

Hi, Marjorie. Marjorie, there's a place right here. There's a seat right here. You might be more comfortable on here. On the unbusy level, we've all got the same agenda. It's called, you know, it's called grooving. It's called breathing. It's called pulsating prosoplasm. It's called direct sensory experience. We're all doing the same thing. We're all touching each other. Nobody's better than anybody else. And our life comes out of that soup. And at other levels, we think we've got the same trips or different trips, but whether we've got the same trips or different trips

[60:43]

If we follow through on whatever trips we got and we follow through on whatever differences there are, we forget them. If we hold back on what we're up to, these things all stick. If we shirk our responsibility to our experience, then things relatively get stuck. They get stuck relative to our unwillingness to be in that stuck realm. So if we agree or disagree, still we've got to follow through on what's happening. We've got to be thoroughgoing. And not thoroughgoing on some stuff and not another. Like, it isn't that you're thoroughgoing in the zendo and not thoroughgoing in the kitchen. But to tell you the truth, you know, like I walked around Gringolf's, the traditional thing, there's these marley mugs around. Actually, there aren't so much anymore because of various things. Like, they put in railings around here that are slanting surfaces. But anyway, in various ways, there aren't as many Marley Mugs around Green Gulch as there used to be. I don't know if people are more mindful or what, but anyway, there aren't as many.

[61:48]

They're all broken. Or as soon as we find... But my feeling is, I would suggest to you that to the extent that there's marley mugs around Green Gulch, people are also leaving marley mugs in their minds in the zendo. The process of our inattention and our unwillingness to be thorough in the meditation hall is reflected in our unwillingness to be thorough out here. What's a marley mug? That's a marley mug. Would you like to raise it up? This is a Marley mug. It's a brand name, yes. French glassware. Quite famous here at Green Gulch and also at Tassara and City Center. Because one of the main things about Zen, you know, is put things back where you got them. You know that practice? It's like everything... I was wondering what to do with it. I got it out of the kitchen. I thought I could put it back in this kitchen. You can, actually. But, you know, we'd really like you to take it all the way downstairs.

[62:54]

Or you could give it to Susan. She could take it back for you. Or Susan could give you hers, and you could take hers back. Can I finish? If you'll be patient. Andrew? Andrew? Thank you. Do you want to see a character? Which one do you want to see? Busy. Oh, Busy. But now it's busy. It's true. It's true. It's true.

[63:54]

It's true. [...] This means like goods, you know, shopping goods. This is retail items. Or wholesale, which I mean. Times two, which means, huh? It's goody-goody, yeah, goody-goody. Too goody-goody, or too baddy-baddy. Good and bad, good and bad. That's where you're at, Cloud Cliff. Bad month. Kathy? You were talking about the thought of killing is the same as killing. No, I didn't say that.

[64:56]

I didn't say thought of killing is the same as killing. I said the thought of killing violates the precept of not killing. Killing is much worse than the thought of killing. Much, much worse. But the thought of killing precedes the killing. Well, it's just really interesting to me. I came from a Catholic church where we had the thought, one's sin with the thought, and I thought I'd just been a whole other place, and I feel like I'm back where I started. That's what it means to accept your busy mind, is to go back where you started. Don't try to get advanced. Be willing to be that little beginner that you used to be. And if you can be that beginner all the way, that's like beyond advanced and not advanced. That's called liberation from beginning, middle and end. That's called realizing the one who was liberated was already liberated.

[66:00]

And then you can be a beginner. It's okay. It's okay. He's kind of stuffy in here.

[67:08]

Can we have some windows open? That one might be a problem. Breathing in. He knows he's breathing in. breathing out. She knows she's breathing out. Is there something better to do than that? Of course. But you're doing that anyway, so be honest. It takes a lot of love or compassion, forgiveness, and acceptance in order to just breathe in and know you breathe in.

[68:19]

Yep, that's right. And also, when you breathe in and just know you breathe in, that is a lot of love and compassion. And if you're that compassionate with yourself, that you allow yourself to be who you are, to live the life you're living while you're breathing in, to let yourself be that person, if you can be completely compassionate and let yourself be that person, you will also be able to realize that there's no breathing in or breathing out. In other words, compassion sets up wisdom. Say more about that. On Sunday you put compassion and wisdom on two polarities.

[69:26]

Yeah, well, they're like two wings of Buddha. Compassion means you're involved with everything. You're involved with your breathing, inhale, exhale. And you let yourself be that way and you're with yourself in every way that you're doing that, in all your suffering with your breathing in and your breathing out. You're passionately with yourself, who has a body and who breathes. You're willing to be involved. You're willing to identify with your breath even. And also, you're completely detached from your breath. So, if you're willing to be completely involved with your breathing, you can realize detachment from your breathing. But you can't realize detachment of your breathing if you're not in your breathing. You've got to sort of be there to realize detachment.

[70:27]

So compassion and wisdom come together. Detachment and involvement go together. Transcendence and involvement go together, hand in hand. Two wheels of the great vehicle. or like that story I told you about that guy saying Carol is a process, not an event, if that's a real insight, for that not just to be crazy, it has to be connected to being completely involved with Carol.

[71:31]

When you're completely involved with your children... and you see that your children are a process, not an event, it's fine. But if you're a distance from your children and you say that, it's very cold. Very cold. And it's crazy. And make them crazy, too. Unless you really were that way, I guess then it would be all right. But you're not, so that's untrue. It's untrue that you're not totally involved with your children. Next thing, compassion is being involved, residents being detached. And then how do they move? Yeah, I'll just say that. That's not really true, but I'll say that anyway, just for the sake of argument. That compassion is to be completely involved with all beings, and wisdom is to be completely detached.

[72:39]

Not detached like separate from them, but there's no beings there to, you know, to be with. They're not separate from you. You see the emptiness of our separation. So you're detached. Buddha's... Then they can be more involved with you. so you can be more involved again, so you can be completely on a more intimate level and a more beneficial level, because you bring involvement without attachment. You bring involvement with mystery. You bring involvement with not knowing who the person is. And when they try to behave themselves, you don't constrain them by your agendas, even though you do still have agendas. Buddhas are actually detached. They're not attached to stuff. And because they're not attached, they can be totally involved with us. So we get to have all the goodies of our interrelationship, and that's the unbusy one. The unbusy one is totally involved with us. And not attached because it has nothing to attach to.

[73:45]

It has nothing outside itself. It's not involved. It's purged of receptivity to externals. It's touching everything. Sorry. It's touching everything, but not as an object, not as external. She's not external to me. But I'm touching her. It's kind of nice, actually. but not external. If external, then I attach or I separate and reject. So how to stay close and not mess around with people by making them objects? We can be close and not separate. This is the wonder of the Buddha. This is an unbusy one. But meantime, somebody's there messing around all the time. Always busy. Well, okay.

[74:47]

Again, if I admit that one completely, there's a possibility of release. Still confused. When Bill brought up the Jehovah's Witness, for instance, if you're presented with a situation where repent and throw away your Buddhist idols and literature and declare Jesus Christ as your only Lord and Savior, okay, You're in that situation without denying. Okay, I won't add anything. If someone comes up to your door and that's how you need to respond, that's the signal you're getting.

[75:51]

That's the compassion they need to experience, that they're being able to help you at that moment. They don't necessarily need to feel that. That's not necessarily what they need to feel. It might be, but it might be really helpful for them to be total failure that night. It might even be good for them to get converted to Buddhism that night. Don't be so sure about what's helpful to them. Generally speaking, what's helpful to people is to help them take themselves less seriously. And if I'm concerned with other people taking themselves less seriously, then it's probably a good idea for me to do the same. If I can really take myself less seriously, they might be willing to do it too. And still keep being Jehovah's Witnesses. Okay, so we didn't get into the verse.

[77:07]

No, I'm not sure. But I just want to tell you something that you may already know, and that is that the verse has to do with these other characters, right? So you know who Tian Tung is? Tian Tung is the guy who compiled this book, right? Do everybody know that? The monk who compiled this book. And he brings in these other two characters. Shren. Shren. Shren. Shre-fung. You want to do Shre-fung? Yeah, and... Shre-fung? Shre-fung. Shre-fung? Shre-fung? Very good. Shre-fung? No. Shre-fung? Shuefeng. Shuefeng, which means snowy peak. He has two disciples. He has three. His disciples are Chongqing, Yunmen, and Xuansha.

[78:15]

Xuansha. Excuse me. Xuansha. I know I have to recite. Xuansha. Shwansha? Shwansha. Shwansha? Yes. Okay, he has these three disciples, okay? Those are the three characters that are in case 22, the snub-nosed, turd-nosed snake, okay? So in this case, he's bringing up Shwansha and Yunmen. He brings them into comment. And then... In the verse, he refers to case 22. Okay? So, Pat, could you... So do people know case 22 now? Yes. Who doesn't know case 22? Okay. Okay. So, learn Case 22, okay?

[79:16]

It's not that, so it's a story about this guy named Snowy Summit. He says to his disciples this thing about, there's a turtle-nosed snake on Salt Mountain. You people should have a good look, all right? Not the commentary. No, just the story, the basic story. In the Blue Cliff Record. Case 22. Case 22 in the Blue Cliff Record. But just learn the story right now. This guy says, there's a turtle-nosed snake on South Mountain. In other words, there's a snake that eats Buddhas on South Mountain. You people should go take a look at that snake that eats Buddhas. Okay? Okay? And his elder disciple Chongqing says, certainly in this room right now, like I say to you right now, okay? Let's just forget about those teachers. Let's imagine if I said to you, there's a turtle-nosed snake up in those mountains.

[80:21]

You people should go take a look. And Marjorie says, certainly in this room right now, there are people who have lost their bodies and lives. I just told you to go take a look at this snake that eats people and makes them into Buddhas and pioneers. She says, certainly in this room there's people who have already lost their bodies and minds. I mean, bodies and lives, okay? Losing them fast. All right? Just forget about the story. That's what happened, all right? Now, later, right after that, one of you comes up and throws a staff down and acts like it's a snake, and acts like you're frightened of a snake, all right? Then the commentary says, is talking about this kind of event, and says that the snake handler, the person, the one, the great Zen master, Yunmen, who threw the staff down and acted like it was a snake, the turtle-nosed snake,

[81:25]

The snake handler of Green Gulch Farm, whoever threw that stick down. Things done in childhood, when you look back in adulthood, you're ashamed about. That's what it's about. Can you picture that? Why? What's the reason for bringing that up in the verse? That's what we'll try to bring in. What's that got to do with what we've just been talking about all night? What's that verse got to do with this? Okay? That's what we'll get into next week. What's his business about? Why did Shrensha say, this certainly is a second world? And what does Yunmen, the one who threw the staff down, what does he mean when he says, the butler watches the maid politely? What's he talking about when he says that? What does it mean that when the butler sees the maid, he takes care? Think about that.

[82:31]

Meditate on that. What's it got to do with this story? You don't want to do it? Don't. But please, come back. Because next week is the last class before Labor Day. there's going to be something amazing that's going to happen next week. So be sure and come.

[82:59]

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