Good morning, everybody. It's Musho Sensei on the line, and I'm just really happy to be here this morning because we're doing a special event, which is a collaboration between Two Arrows Zen and the Ancient Dragon's Gate in Chicago. And Taigen Dan Layton is joining us, and he'll be doing a beautiful teaching on five of Dogen's essays. And I know that many of you have seen this advertised online, and I just want to appreciate you for taking the time out of your schedule to tune in and to listen to this teaching. It's a really, for me, it's quite a privilege because he's one of my favorite contemporary writers. Taigen is a Soto Zen priest and he's a successor in the lineage of Suzuki Roshi, who many of you know founded the San Francisco Zen Center. And he's done extensive formal training at the San Francisco Zen Center and also in Japan. He is the author of several books, and I've read them, which I love, Faces of Compassion, Vision of Awakening, Dogen and the Lotus Sutra, well, Visions of Awakening, Space and Time, Dogen and the Lotus Sutra, and he's going to be teaching today from his book that I, his most recent book called Zen Questions, and he's also going to be taking us through five of Dogen Zenji's essays

[01:22]

He's a really, one of, what I love about him is that he's able to translate these ancient and very, both beautiful from a literary perspective and also profound teachings and traditions to contemporary audiences. So his way of weaving contemporary understanding with these ancient texts is really exquisite. So I just want to appreciate you all for being on the course. Welcome, Taigan, and take it away. OK, well, thank you very much. So I really appreciate Michelle, Diane, Michelle Hamilton, and the Two Arrows Zen for inviting me to this. And hello to all of you. I wanted to talk about my plan for what I wanted to do in these three weeks. And we'll see what actually happens. What I want to do today, which is somewhat ambitious. Well, for all three weeks, I want I was thinking of presenting for about an hour and then having a half hour for discussion.

[02:29]

But today, particularly, I may modify that. So what I want to do is focus on three of Dogen's essays from Shobo Genzo in this course, The Flowers in the Sky, Being Time, and The Mountains and Waters Sutra. which are all in the main text. We're using Tom Cleary's Shobo Genzo Zen essays. But as introduction today, I want to start by talking about Bodhisattva, the Bodhisattva Four Methods of Guidance, which is in Cleary's book, and then talk about some things from the chapter in My Zen Questions, which you should have all received reflections on translating Dogen, and then some on Genjo Koan, both the material in the Shevogin's and essays, but also my commentary on it and questions. So I want to talk about those up to there somewhat briefly. And actually, for all of Dogen's writings and essays, I could talk about any one of these for many, many hours.

[03:41]

They're all very dense and with lots of juicy stuff in them. So I wanted to give a kind of overview in this course. So what I'm hoping to do is focus on main points about them. But again, today is more of an introduction. So in your questions, and with as many people as we have, welcome everyone. We'll see how much time we have for discussion. I may have, maybe we'll take a couple questions or so before we get to flowers in the sky, but I do want to at least get a good start on that today. So, okay, here it goes. I wanted to start with the essay, The Bodhisattva, Four Methods of Guidance, which is towards the end of the Tom Cleary book, Shobhogenza's Essays, on page 117. And why I wanted to start on that is because it's not always obvious reading Dogen or reading, or even in terms of Zen context and Zen background, and maybe particularly in American Zen, it's not always so obvious that Zen is very much a part of the Mahayana Bodhisattva teaching and practice.

[05:07]

So this is one example where Dogen talks about this. But all of Zen, and Dogen very much particularly, is coming from this context of universal liberation from Mahayana Buddhism and the Bodhisattva ideal. Writing that's focused on that. And there are others. The material in this class, by the way, is all from one of Dogen's two major writings. This is all from Shobo Genzo and the largest selection of things from Shobo Genzo, these longer essays. Shilak Okumura and I also translated Dogen's extensive record, which has his later writings, which are much shorter writings and also go into a lot of this At any rate, Bodhisattva, the four integrative methods of Bodhisattvas is very practical and talks about four, could have translated them as integrative methods.

[06:16]

It could be literally translated as embracing dharmas. And probably these are all familiar to you, but again, as background, just to say, as background for Zen, all that teaching and for Dogen, This is sort of obvious in Asia. You can present people in Asia that there's this cultural context of the Bodhisattva and Bodhisattva imagery. I think it's not so obvious for people getting involved in Zen in America, but we don't have all these Bodhisattva statues and temples and so forth. So that's part of why I wanted to start with this. So again, the four, just to say the four, embracing dharmas or integrative methods that he talks about, generosity or dana, which we probably are all familiar with as the first paramita, the six or ten, whichever way you look at that, kind speech, beneficial action, and the fourth is cooperation or, Kastanahashi translates it as identity action.

[07:24]

So I'm just going to say a little bit about these as a kind of way of introducing this background of Dogen. The first one, giving or generosity, of course, we know is a challenging and difficult practice. And I'll focus on that of the four here. What Dogen says about it is very interesting. Of course, there's the challenge of how to give a gift and how to receive a gift, and the challenges of what generosity means basically in general. Here, Dogen says interesting things like, in the middle of the first long paragraph, to offer flowers from distant mountains to a Buddha, give away treasures from one's past life to living beings, as examples of generosity. He also has this wonderful phrase, this wonderful passage, when one leaves the way to the way, one attains the way.

[08:26]

When attaining the way, the way is necessarily being left to the way. Goods are left to good. The goods unfailingly become giving. Self gives to self. Other gives to other. So his teaching about generosity and giving here is very wide. He's talking about giving away, giving oneself. On page 118, he talks about what is difficult to transform is the mind of living being. giving, um, he talks about is, uh, to transform the mind of living beings, to transform it even as far as attainment of enlightenment. Beginning, it must be done by giving. This reason, in the beginning of the six transcendent ways, the six paramitas, is the transcendent way of giving. One should not calculate the greatness or smallness of the mind or the greatness or smallness of the gift, of the thing you give. Nevertheless, there is time when the mind transforms things and there is giving in which things transform the mind."

[09:33]

So he's talking about all four of these embracing dharmas or integrative methods as part of the practice of bodhisattvas and how bodhisattvas act to help foster universal liberation and relieve suffering in awakened beings. The other three, kind speech, He talks about here and other places, so this is related to the Eightfold Path and Right Speech, but he says, for example, to hear kind speech to one's face gladdens the countenance and pleases the heart. Hearing kind speech indirectly makes a deep impression on the mind. So just to speak kindly to others, but even to speak somewhere else, I think he says to speak kindly about others, even if they're not present, is helpful to them. So these are actual practices we can do, that come out of the traditional Mahayana Bodhisattva practices, and again, is this context and background for all of the writings of Dogen, which may seem very inscrutable and difficult, and I want to talk in the next part about how to read Dogen.

[10:46]

But just to say something about the other two, Beneficial Action, of course, obvious to use skillful means to benefit living beings. So this is the basic practice that Bodhisattvas are about. And he puts it on this, towards the end of that section, if one acquires this heart, even in the plants and trees, wind and water, the principle of beneficial action, being inherently non-regressive will indeed be beneficially acted out. So he puts this in very wide terms, and this is part of what I want to emphasize with Dogen, he's not just talking about human psychology, although that's included, but he's talking about how we see our practice in the context of all beings, and so it's not just about human beings. Well, of course, as human beings, we are concerned about human beings.

[11:48]

The fourth one, cooperation or identity action, is to And when one knows cooperation, self and others are one thusness. To see that cooperation, so this is important in terms of Sangha. A task of cooperation, on the last page, is a manner, a standard, or a dignity that could be translated as an attitude. He has this kind of nature metaphor, the ocean doesn't refuse water, therefore it is unable to become so immense. Mountains don't refuse earth. That is why they can be so high. An enlightened ruler, or we might just say a leader, doesn't refuse people, therefore their community can become populous. So this sense of inclusiveness, cooperation, but seeing others as oneself, you could say. So again, he's talking about the practical undertakings of the Bodhisattva, and I just wanted to start with that because

[12:49]

that context for all of Dogen's teaching is very important. So, that's the first thing I wanted to mention. The next one I wanted to talk about is the essay from Zen Questions, and I'm assuming you've all read this, so I'm not going over everything, but the essay that I included on Reflections on Translating Dogen I wanted to talk about that in terms of talking about Dogen's language and how to read Dogen. So, the first thing is that Dogen, and hopefully you get this from what I talk about in terms of how the problems and challenges of translating Dogen, that his writing, and this comes across in good English translation just as well as in his Chinese or Japanese writing, is very intricate, very complex.

[13:55]

So I think I mentioned here that translating with Shōhaku, sometimes we would just be stopped and not know what, you know, not know what Dōgen was saying. And after literally, you know, a few hours of trying to figure out what a particular sentence or passage was saying could go back to the literal reading of what Dogen was saying, and suddenly it would be sensible. And then how to put that into English so that it worked. But what I want to say is when you're trying to read Dogen, and I imagine some of you are familiar with reading Dogen in translation. Some of you may be newer to Dogen. best way to start off reading Dogen is just to kind of bathe in him, or read Dogen like you're reading a symphony. Just read through an entire text or passage without trying to decipher what he's saying.

[14:57]

Don't try to figure out Dogen. Now, it's not that one can't understand Dogen, you know, even academically or, you know, to analyze Dogen in terms of the teachings and so forth. It's not impossible, but that's not the point. Dogen is not a philosopher. He's very poetic. He's not promulgating doctrines. So, I want to read a passage from one of, from Heejin Kim, who's one of the, Heejin Kim's book, Hey Dogen, Mystical Realist, it's available from Wisdom, is one of the best general introductions to Dogen, but he makes the point that Dogen was a religious thinker. He was a meditation teacher. He wasn't concerned with presenting some philosophy. So there's this wonderful quote from He Jin Kim, Dogen was a religious thinker, not merely or even primarily a philosopher.

[16:00]

Dogen's most philosophic moments were permeated by his practical religious concern against the background of which his philosophic activities stand out most clearly in their truest significance. What Dogen presents to us is not a well-defined, well-knit philosophical system, but rather a loose nexus of exquisite mythopoetic imaginings and profound philosophic visions." That phrase, I think that captures what Dogen is doing. He presents a loose nexus of exquisite mythopoetic, if you will, imaginings and profound philosophic visions. So one might say that Dogen is a visionary rather than a philosopher. And the way Dogen puts together his, especially the longer essays in Shobo Genzo, he takes a theme or a particular co-honor or a particular teacher

[17:07]

and weaves that together with other associations and talks about, and kind of riffs off it. I mean, it's kind of like Zen jazz. I mean, he kind of puts together other related stories or quotes, and he's trying to present something. So when you're reading Dogen, again, just kind of bathe in it, read through it, see what parts speak to you, and note them, and go back, and hang out with them, and really, you know, as a translator, you know, I have to go and look and say, well, what does he mean here? What is the dharma here? He's saying this. What is he trying to convey? you know, all of his writing, all of his writings were, almost all, were originally teachings, almost all of them originally oral talks that were then compiled.

[18:19]

What is he trying to convey to his particular students? So that's a good way to think about it as you're reading it. And if parts of it seem just weird or inscrutable or, you know, what's this about, just skip it. Go to the parts that speak to you and kind of hang out with them. And so there are, you know, some of these essays that we're talking about, I've spent, you know, more than 30 years hanging out with, and each time I go back and find new things. So this is not something that, so again, please don't try and decipher or figure out token. Just enjoy what's happening. But you may recognize something from your own practice. and that's where the juice is in Dogan. I want to say something else from that particular essay. I want to focus on a particular part of that Reflections on Translating Dogan essay, and that's from one of his earliest, so this is on pages 64 and 65.

[19:30]

I hope those page numbers come through in the PDF that you have. It's in the section Dogan's Play with Language. And this is from, probably his first writing, maybe there was an earlier version of Gukan Zazangi that was a little bit before this, but this is from the Self-Fulfillment Samadhi. I know at Ancient Dragon Zen Gate here in Chicago, we sometimes chant this. I don't know if you do in Utah, but anyway, this section of Bendowa's first writing on the Self-Fulfillment Samadhi, I included a passage here just to show how intricate his language is. So these sentences are, you know, very complex and yet as I say in the passage there, he's doing that because that's the only way he can say, he's not just trying to be difficult. He's saying something that he needs to say and this is how he can say it.

[20:31]

This one is particularly important, and this follows, so on page 65 after the quote itself, this follows on one of the most remarkable statements in all of Dogen's writings. And again, this is his very first essay about the meaning of zazen, where he says, when one displays the Buddha mudra with one's whole body and mind, sitting uprightly in this samadhi, even for a short time, everything in the entire dharma world becomes buddha mudra, and all space in the universe, in the entire universe, becomes enlightenment. So, this is Dogen's claim for a zen. One of the things that Dogen does is he proclaims things. He's not trying to prove something logically. And this is an amazing claim. You know, if you sit on it for a little while, all of space awakens. What does that mean? You know, it's impossible to get your head around it.

[21:38]

But this is actually a very important idea in all of Buddhism, the whole idea of Buddha fields and the pure land that awakening changes the nature of reality, of space. And by space, he doesn't mean just, you know, outer space, or the space between things. Space is everything. And he makes that clear. So in the passage that's included here, I'll just read this. Therefore, this sudden person, without fail, drops off body and mind, which is a synonym for Dogen, of of Zazen and of awakening. Cuts away previous tainted views and thoughts, awakens genuine Buddha Dharma, universally helps the Buddha work in each place. So this idea of the Buddha work, this happens not just on its own. This is the responsibility of each practitioner to do this Buddha work. But it universally helps the Buddha work in each place as numerous as atoms, where Buddha Tathagatas teach and practice, and widely influences practitioners who are going beyond Buddha

[22:48]

thereby vigorously exalting the Dharma that goes beyond Buddha. And this phrase, going beyond Buddha, is one that Dogen uses many, many times, much more than just sitting, for example. He talks about going beyond Buddha, that Buddha, for Dogen, does not mean something that one, you know, realizes or experiences or understands one time, that Buddha is constantly going beyond Buddha. Buddha is constantly, ongoingly awakening. That's what Buddha is. And he says, at this time, because earth, grasses, and trees, fences, and walls, and pebbles, all things in the Dharma realm in ten directions, which means the whole universe, carry out this Buddha work. Therefore, everyone receives the benefit of wind and water movement caused by this functioning, and all are imperceptibly helped by the wondrous and incomprehensible influence of Buddha to actualize the enlightenment at hand. So he specifically, you know, he starts by saying that all of space awakens, but then he says this has to do with earth, grasses, and trees, and even fences, and walls, tiles, and pebbles, even man, so-called unnatural, so-called man-made things, that the very nature of the world around us is changed by Sarsen.

[24:08]

This is Kent's claim. And he goes on later in that section, in that part of, that text to talk about the mutual, imperceptible guidance between the person sitting and earth, grasses, and trees, and also fences, and walls, and tiles, and pebbles. So there's this sense of this resonance between, within Zazen practice, between the person sitting and everything around you. So this is a profoundly important text in terms of I apply it to modern ecological and environmental concerns, and I think it very much applies to that. I mean, some scholars would think that doesn't make sense to apply it that way, but clearly it's there to me. So this is Dogen's first basic text, the starting point for all his other writing. So that's important to know, and that

[25:12]

the practice he's talking about and the Buddha work he's talking about is about this whole range of how we relate to the environment around us. And he also taught, there's another part of that section later on where he talks about how this influences the people that the Zazen person comes in contact with during everyday activity. So even the people that you think are not practicing, and people who are not doing Zazen are affected by your Zazen. You know, he says this. And so we shouldn't make discriminations between people who are Zen practitioners and are not Zen practitioners. Your Zazen imperceptibly guides many people. So this is, again, this is a starting point for Dogen's teaching. So again, I'm going through this really quickly because I do want to get to flowers in the sky today. But I want to say a little bit, if it's possible to say a little bit, about Genjo Koan.

[26:18]

So I'm covering a lot of material really quickly. I realize that. But I want to say a little bit about Genjo Koan. And that's maybe Dogen's most famous writing. I want to start with some of the main points I talk about in the essay and then questions. And then say a little more from some of the other material in the section in Tom Cleary's book. But this is from the, just to say a little bit from the chapter and some questions that you have of the practice of Gendro Koan. So, and at this point, maybe I should say something about, again, I wanted to, I said a little bit about reading Dogen, but also, about comparative translations. So, you have the Tom Cleary translation in the Shobo Genzo Zen Essays book. The translation that I use in this Practice of Genjo Koan chapter in Zen Questions is from Kaz Tanahashi.

[27:25]

And generally, if you want to spend time with a particular writing by Dogen, the best way to do that is to look at two or three good translations of Dogen. So, probably none of them are perfect, although the ones that Shohaku and I did are pretty good. But Tom Cleary's are good, Akash Tanahashi's are good, they're good in different ways. The Norman Waddell Masao Abe translations in the heart of Dogen Shobo Genzo little book from SUNY Press is good, and I'll send Diane, a list of these to send out to you later in the week. Shohaku Okamura has a wonderful book called Realizing Genjo Koan. So you can look at, if you take a particular passage and look at several different, a couple of different good translations together, you'll get a better sense of Dogen's original often.

[28:27]

These are, you know, challenging to translate and Often there are overtones that can't be captured in any one translation. But I wanted to just focus on what I see as a few main points in what Dogen is saying in this important essay, Genjo Koan, before we go on to Flowers in the Sky. So the first thing is, bottom of the first page of the Practice of Genjo Koan chapter, this wonderful definition by Dogen here, carry yourself forward and illuminate the myriad things, the myriad dharmas, is delusion. That the myriad things come forth and illuminate themselves is awakening or enlightenment. So that's the clearest, and to me, best definitions of the difference between awakening and delusion that I've ever seen. So, uh, just to say again that when that, what Dogen says is delusion is that when we project our self on various things.

[29:31]

When we bring our self, our ego forward, that's, um, that's delusion. Awakening is when we allow our self to come forth together and to arise together with all things, interdependent with all things. Then he goes on to say that those who are greatly enlightened about delusion are Buddhas. The Buddhas are, you know, enlightened about their delusions. And those who have great delusions about enlightenment are sentient beings or deluded beings. Moreover, there are those who continue awakening beyond awakening and those who are in delusion throughout delusion. And one of the points that Dogen makes in this essay and in many others is not to try and get awakened or get rid of delusion, to be thoroughly present in both. That's explicitly in Genjo Koan a little later. So to thoroughly And I talk about using genjo koan as a verb to actualize the koan of your current existence, your current situation, in whatever situation you're in, whether it's enlightenment or delusion.

[30:43]

So, again, it's not about trying to get in. So, for Dogen, Zev practice is not about trying to get enlightened, it's not about trying to get rid of delusion. It says this very clearly in many places. But to see which is which. But to know also this difference between carrying yourself or ego forward as delusion and to see everything arising together as awakening. And he talks about this in various ways. talks about, I'm going to jump to, this is in the Tom Cleary translation that you have, talks about this. This is on page 32 and 33. on page 33 talks about the sense of separation of self and other, no, I'm missing where that is.

[32:00]

Anyway, the idea of subject and object as being separate is kind of a basic problem. And to see ourself as connected to is interdependent, not the same as, but interdependent. Oh, on page 71, I'm sorry, of the Zen Questions, Practice of Genjo Koan, towards the bottom there. I'll just read a little bit. The Practice of Genjo Koan is about actually fully engaging both sides, first to see how we do have this deeply ingrained pattern of seeing ourselves as separate from the world. That's our human way of being. Our language and way of thinking is determined by syntax of subject, object. We think that we're subjects verbing objects to get what we want or get rid of what we don't want. Or we might feel that we're objects trying not to be verbed by subjects out there. Either way, that's our world of delusion. That's how we think.

[33:00]

Yet, there's also this other side which arises in Zazen. We're willing to just settle down and be present and upright. We can see that we are all breathing together. The myriad things arise. This is our world, too. So, just to see both sides of that is what he's talking about here. There's also maybe the most famous passage in all of Dogen about studying the self. This is on page 72 in the Zen Questions handout. To study the Buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. by the myriad things, body and mind, as well as the body and mind of others, drop away. So, just, so, you know, as you all know, from sitting Zazen, just to sit and see the mind babbling along is, um, um, and see, study, not study psychologically or analytically or whatever, but just to yogically feel the self is

[34:14]

uh, central part of Zazen, to see our patterns, grasping and frustration and anger and fear and so forth, to really study the self and be intimate and familiar with our self is, I think, what, you know, part of, at least, part of what he's talking about here, to really become familiar and intimate with our self. Then, the other part of, uh, the other thing in Gensokyo I think is, uh, particularly helpful is this wonderful passage on page 73 opposite concerning the Self. When Dharma does not fill your whole body and mind, you think it's already sufficient. When Dharma fills your whole body and mind, you understand something's missing. So, this is like the First Noble Truth. To understand something is missing. Things are... more than something is missing, maybe, uh, but things are not, um, as we would wish in our own lives and in the world, something is missing.

[35:16]

And just to be willing to sit and face that reality is challenging and daunting. How do we be present with that and with the sadness around that? So I wanted to point out just a few more things in Genjo Koan before we pause and before going into Flowers in the Sky. Tom Cleary Translation. One of the things that Tom is very good at translating things in very interesting ways. He translates Genjo Koan as the issue at hand, which I think is kind of clever and also really to the point. The issue at hand. What is the issue at hand? So at the bottom of page 33, he starts with this, one of the things in this essay that's very important is to examine and shift our perspective on reality.

[36:24]

So he talks about looking at the shore when one's riding in a boat. This is one of those. When one rides a boat out into the ocean where there are no mountains and looks around, it only appears round and one can see no other different characteristics. However, this ocean is not round nor is it square. The remaining qualities of the ocean are inexhaustible. And if we look at the details of the shoreline, it's not the ocean or a lake. I live near a great lake. It's not just round, even though if you go out in the middle of it, all you can see is the horizon all around. But looking at the ocean from different perspectives, it may be like a palace, like ornaments. As far as our eyes can see, it is only round. And it's the same with all things. We see things from a particular perspective. We see and comprehend, or this is only what the power of our eye of contemplative study reaches.

[37:26]

So this is very important, to just see that we have a particular limited human perspective. There's another part of this in the middle of that page 34. He talks about fish and birds. Fish and birds have never been apart from the water and the sky. It's just that when the need is large, the use is large. Other translations say the field is large or the realm is large. When the requirement is small, the use of the field is small. this way, though the bounds are unfailingly reached everywhere and tread upon in every single place, the bird would instantly die if it left the sky and the fish would instantly die if it left the water. So our practice reaches, you know, the realm in which is needed.

[38:31]

So we each have our own particular realm of practice, and that's appropriate. Dogen also talks about, in various places, uh, abiding in one's Dharma position. And that, to me, means, um, to, uh, be present in the situation you're in. The situation in your Sangha, and the situation in your life, and the situation in the world. in karma you have in this lifetime, to actually accept your vision and situation in this life is the point. And he talks about this a lot. And I think that abiding in one's dharma position is very important. And it's what he's talking about here, that our realm of practice may be focused, may be just on taking care of our family, for example.

[39:33]

or taking care of our neighborhood, or taking care of a particular workplace. Or it can expand, and it depends on the situation. So these days I'm particularly concerned with climate change and the dangers to our environment, and so that's a realm that I focus on. But there are many, many places in our, in whatever situation you're in where you can focus on particular context where you may respond and there are situations that need your attention and practice. So how do we see our realm? And sometimes the realm changes, our realm of practice. But again, what Dogen says is when the need is large, the use is large. and the need is large, the field or the realm of your practice becomes larger.

[40:35]

So, that's a very, very quick introduction to a lot of stuff from Dogen. And I wanted to just cover that material as a basis for then and now talking about this wonderful essay, Flowers in the Sky, and then over the next two weeks, Being Time and Mountains and Waters Sutra, but I think at this point maybe we could pause and take a few questions anyway, before I start in on Flowers in the Skies. So, Mucho, if you would like to take questions. Thank you very much for that, for an exquisite opening, and as you said, there's just so many beautiful moments from what you've introduced to us so far. At this point, if you have an inquiry or perhaps if you are particularly touched and would like a little bit more clarity on something, if you would press one on your handheld, we'll take a few minutes now to interact with Tygan and he can answer your questions and refer to your comments.

[41:48]

So press one on your handheld if there's something you'd like to inquire into. So, at this moment, it looks... I mean, I think people are probably having the same experience I'm having, which is I feel kind of just like, oh, okay, it looks like we do have some hands going up. Okay, so let's... It's also, you know, it's... Excuse me. It's also fine to just pause and sit and take a few breaths, because, you know, this is challenging material and, you know, part of our tradition is just to sit quietly. But go ahead if there's some comments or questions. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. So it looks like Kathy Brownback has a question, so let's start with Kathy. Hi. I had a question about this expression of going beyond Buddha.

[42:52]

And I wondered, does that mean going beyond a conception of Buddha? Is that what he means? Is that what you're saying? Or is there some other way to understand what that phrase means? That's part of it. It's so whatever conception or idea or experience of Buddha we have. So, you know, some, you know, sometimes people have dramatic opening experiences where they, you know, have some real experience of Buddha. And that's just the starting point for practice. So whatever, so whether it's an understanding or an experience or whatever, that's, that Buddha, so going beyond might be kind of an adjective phrase for describing Buddha. Buddha is, so Shakyamuni Buddha, for example, to just mention one of the many, many Buddhas in Mahayana Buddhism, Shakyamuni Buddha continued

[44:02]

sitting zazen and practicing and awakening the whole rest of his life. So, Buddha also continues to go beyond Buddha in the, in, and even Shakyamuni Buddha had people coming to him and asking questions the rest of his life. And Buddhism, or the practice of Buddhas, has moved from India, this huge cultural leap to China, and then to Korea and Japan and other countries and South Asia, and then this even, the hugest leap in the history of Buddhism to the West, and in each of those new situations, Buddha has to go beyond being Buddha by adapting to new situations and new cultures. So Buddha, as a living tradition, is always going beyond. So yeah, all of that. And if you stick to one idea of Buddha, then you're just, you know, then Buddhism kind of tends to atrophy and die. You know, we have to be open to, how do we express Buddha that that actually is alive and lively for us.

[45:06]

Uh huh. Okay. I understand what you're saying. So, the Beyond Buddha is the sort of continual movement of Buddha. Yeah, the ongoing Buddha, the ongoing awakening. So, thank you. Great. Okay. Thank you, Kathy. Meg Miley, you have your hand up. Go ahead, Meg. Yes, thank you. Wonderful, wonderful introduction. I guess I loved the idea of reading a passage and hanging out with it, which seems... I mean, it is the poetry of Dogen to me. But I also have a question about whether...how much you need to work with a teacher on something like this, because it seems like, you know, there's so much space to misunderstand as well as to really feel the power of it? Yeah, that's an important question.

[46:09]

Dogen himself says in a number of places at various levels of intensity that it's important to work with a teacher. One of the things about Dogen's writing that's most notable is that he says, particularly in Show Book Enzo, he says very, very clearly, he'll spend a great deal of time going over, you know, he'll say something and riff on it, and then he'll say to a great length, all the, he'll negate all the possible misunderstandings you can imagine. He'll say, no, it doesn't mean this, it doesn't mean that, it doesn't mean the other. He'll go through all various possible misunderstandings very, very carefully. So yeah, I think Dogen and Zazen to some extent takes care of this on its own. But yeah, having a teacher, working with a teacher is very helpful.

[47:11]

I know there are, even though this is something that's just happened, maybe in the last 15 years, that Buddhism is now a global religion, it's not just an Asian religion, and that's something that's happened, as I say, just since fairly recently. And there are teachers, when I have students who have to relocate for whatever reason, I can always find some group or teacher, you know, in somewhere near where they're going to usually, but for some people it's hard to find a teacher nearby. So, you know, it's challenging and I think you can get something. It's important to go and get some consultation with a teacher. Some of the time it's important to sit with a song sometimes.

[48:13]

I don't want to... So, I don't want to give a categorical response to that, but if it's possible to work with a teacher, I think it helps. Right. Thank you. I mean, for me, one of the issues is I'm in a small town and, you know, there are people who teach, but not necessarily people who are my teachers here. Right. So, that's an issue for me. Oh, you're in New Mexico. I just noticed that. We're in New Mexico. Yes. South. Excuse me? South, northern New Mexico. Oh, OK. Actually, I have a student who's just, it's a long story, but relocating to Albuquerque. So if you would email me off this info at ancientdragon.org, my group is Ancient Dragon. I've been researching teachers in New Mexico, so I can... Okay, terrific.

[49:15]

Thank you. So, but yeah, it's... Finding a teacher is a difficult art. It's like working in a relationship. It's not about finding the best teacher or the flashiest teacher or the... You know, it's about finding a teacher who is a good teacher for you. Right. Right. Okay, thank you. You're welcome. Maybe one more question? All right, one more question. Um, Pete has his hand up. Go ahead, Pete. Hi, this is actually Sashi. Oh, hi, Sashi. Hi. I want to keep this on. Um, so, you were talking about, um, approaching the writing... Sorry, I'm hearing an echo. approaching, not trying to decipher Dogan when reading it, but approaching it as if listening to a symphony.

[50:19]

And I kind of heard in that, like this, finding the lyricism in it and sitting with that, as opposed to just trying to grasp the content. I was thinking about that in relation to the attitude with Zazen. Yes. Yeah. And in Zen Questions, you talk about Bob Dylan's lyric about going through something twice and kind of this questioning that's underlying everything that we're doing. And I guess I'm just finding this subtle correlation between how we approach reality and not projecting ourself onto everything, or just trying to just see the distinction between the two. Well, you said not grasping.

[51:20]

So I wanted to grasp onto that. So the point is to not bathe in it or listen to it as a symphony. But also, it's not that you, you know, if you have some understanding of a particular passage, that's fine. That's not the only understanding. So part of the wider perspective that he's emphasizing in Gensho Kōan is to see the range of possibilities. And also just to, you know, whatever understanding you have, that's not you know, to not hold on to that, you know, like that's just your opinion, you know, and just, you know, see that and appreciate it, but to be present with that, so, and I think that's true of Zod there, and it's true of everything, you know, to just hold things loosely, so I don't know if that helps as a response. Yeah, not truth with a capital T, like many truths.

[52:23]

Good, exactly. I see that Mugaku has his hand up. I'll take a quick question. Thank you. Or a quick comment from Mugaku, if that's okay. Yes, Taigan, it's a great pleasure to speak to you. Going beyond Buddha's point, I wondered whether you were pointing out the fact that there is no terminal awakening, that that's what he's talking about. that you drop whatever your awakening is, moment to moment? Yeah, that, you know, there is, I mean, there is awakening, but it's not that there's, it's not that there's awakening that then you're finished, you know? Except for Parinirvana, you know, when you pass away, then you can become a Buddha, but, you know, then you might be reborn, I don't know. But, you know, it's not that we finish It's not that there's some end to our practice or some end to our awakening.

[53:25]

It's this ongoingness. Yeah, the Buddha beyond Buddha is a nice way to remind yourself of that. Yeah, thank you very much. You're welcome. So, if it's okay now, I'd like to start on Flowers in the Sky. Let's begin. So this is one of the three essays I wanted to focus on in this three-week course. And before going into the text itself, I wanted to introduce it by saying a number of things. And hopefully we can just start on the text today and we'll continue this at the beginning of next week. We're not going to finish it today because I do want to have, well, have a little bit of time for more. comments and questions. So a number of things that I need to say about this just to give a context.

[54:32]

So first of all, and some of this is in the text itself, it may be obvious, but first of all, the phrase flowers in the sky is a kind of idiom for cataracts, literally cataracts, like, you know, a cataract in eyes that obstruct vision. So that, and query, you know, uses the word cataract at times in his translation. Um, so he's also referring to this, um, statement in the, um, in the Surangama Sutra, a statement by, it's also in the text, um, But in the Surangama Sutra, which, well, this is a footnote, but this is one of those sutras that what we know, and actually Dogen understood also, was written in China.

[55:40]

So Dogen talks about it with his teacher, Wu Jing, that this was a kind of apocryphal sutra. It was not written in, it didn't come from India. And yet, because it was commented on by Zen teachers, so again, comments on it too. But anyway, there's this phrase, this quote from, supposedly from Shakyamuni Buddha, it is like a person who has clouded eyes seeing flowers in space. If the sickness of clouded eyes is cured, flowers vanish in space. That's the quote from the Sutra. And again, this is Flowers in Space or Flowers in the Sky as an idiom for cataracts. And one of the things going on here, well, Dogen is, this is one of those Shobo Genzo essays where Dogen is totally overturning Buddhist conventions.

[56:42]

So, one idea, And one way of reading that quote that I just read is that, um, you know, based on Buddha nature teaching that, um, reality or awakening is available all the time, but because of our obstructions, uh, because of our blindness, because of our karmic obstructions, because we have cataracts, um, there's a literal way of saying metaphorically, we have obstructions in front of our eyes. We can't see clearly. because of that, the practice is then to clear those away, to get rid of the flowers in the sky, so to speak, so that we can see clearly. Dogen totally overturns that. Now, one just technical thing is the Chinese character for sky here is also the same character that's used for space, and it's also the same character that's used for emptiness. Now, in this essay,

[57:46]

it's very clear that Dogen is saying, flowers in the sky, most of the time. But he's also sometimes playing with the idea of space, and also even the idea of emptiness. So in the Heart Sutra, when you chant, form is no different from emptiness. It's the same character there that's used for emptiness that is used here for sky or space. So Dogen is playing with that. But again, this idea, so Dogen, of course, is overturning worldly conventions in terms of the worldly way of seeing You know, this is common to all of Buddhism to see worldly desires and material gain and trying to manipulate the world to get what we want and get rid of what we don't want. This is the realm of samsara and it interferes with awakening and seeing reality. But even in terms of Buddhist conventions, so again, a number of his essays, totally dispels the usual Buddhist way of seeing what awakening is.

[58:51]

This is one example of this, because he ends up saying things like, that all Buddhas are flowers in space, or that only Buddha's own, the assembly of Buddha's only, there is an enlightenment is just flowers in space. and things like that. So I'm gonna go into the talk about the text and go through the text and highlights in the text today and the beginning of next week. But there are a number of other essays like this. One of my favorites is The Painting of a Rice Cake, where he takes a traditional Zen story, which ends with a teacher saying, painting of a rice cake doesn't satisfy hunger. And the conventional meaning of that is that You know, you need to actually eat the rice cake. Like, you know, you need to take the medicine, not just read the label on the medicine. And a painting of a rice cake doesn't satisfy hunger.

[59:52]

And Dogen goes through this whole elaborate, there's a good translation of it in Muna and Adhudra, this whole elaborate description where he ends up by saying, only a painting of a rice cake satisfies hunger. And he ends up going through, well, what does hunger mean? And he talks about painted hunger, and he talks about painted satisfaction. and how we paint everything, and how, you know, it's a wonderful, wonderful essay, and it's kind of in the same family as This Flower's in the Sky. There's another one where he talks about expressing the dream within a dream, and that Buddhas are all, that all Buddhas express the dream within a dream, and according to conventional Buddhist descriptions of awakening or understandings of awakening, we awaken from the dream. So the dream is like the flowers in the sky, the dream is delusion or unreality. So this goes back to what I was saying about Genjo Koan, that the point is not to get rid of delusion and try and gain some enlightenment, as if enlightenment or awakening was some thing, some object we could attain.

[61:04]

So in Expressing the Dream Within a Dream, in that Shobogenzo essay, I translated that with Kastanahashi. It's in his full Shobogenzo, but also in which of his smaller books. Anyway, he ends up saying that all of the Buddhas are just assemblies, and Buddhas are just expressing the dream within a dream. All Buddhas exist only in a dream. and that this is the dream in which we express the dream. And the point isn't to get rid of the dream, but to fully engage and express the dream within this dream that we're all in right now. So those are two other Shobo Genzo essays where he does something similar to what he's doing in Flowers in the Sky. We're gonna focus on this Flowers in the Sky. And so that's one part of what's going on in this essay. So again, there's this overturning of Buddhist conventions There's also, again, this sky, the Chinese character for sky also means space, and so part of this is about what is space, not space as the space between things, but space as material, space is form.

[62:23]

Emptiness is form, so he's also playing with emptiness a little bit. Then the word flower, flowers in the sky, He's also talking about the flowering of the sky and the flowering of space. So, this partly relates to my talking about Dogen coming from, very much from the Mahayana Bodhisattva tradition. One of the difficulties of translating is that, more in the Chinese than in the Japanese, but sometimes you know, you might, you can read a word as a, translate a word as a noun, but it also really is a verb. So this, you could see that this, this essay is the flowering of space or the flowering in the sky or the flowering of emptiness. So this is like the, um, the load.

[63:26]

So this, there are references in this essay to both the Lotus Sutra and the Flower Ornament Sutra. both of which are important Mahayana Bodhisattva teachings and sutras that are, that use, that are, where flowers are very central to the imagery. Dogen quotes, well, I have the book on Dogen and the Lotus Sutra, where Dogen talks about the Lotus Sutra, and actually the Lotus Sutra in Japanese is called the Hokekyo, the Dharma Flower Sutra, or the Dharma Flowering Sutra. So there's an active part of this, there's a flowering of the sky, the flowering of the space, the flowering of the Dharma. So, again, there's, in reading this, we could see the flower as a verb as well as a noun. And then this is sort of getting ahead of the text, because this refers to stuff that's sort of at the end of the text.

[64:30]

I want to read a passage actually from the Pilgrim and the Lotus Sutra book that talks about what he's doing here in this essay in terms of non-duality, but a deeper version of non-duality. And then I'm going to go back, go and start in on the text at least today. And again, just to say something, to say a little bit about his style of proclamation, that he's proclaiming things rather than trying to logically demonstrate things. It's a different style of discourse than we're used to. But anyway, Dogen profoundly reaffirms the reality of non-duality. Usually, non-duality is considered as opposed to duality. Duality is about transcending duality and discriminating minds, seeing through the dualities of form and emptiness, this and that, good and bad, right and wrong, all of the conventional dualistic illusions.

[65:38]

But in his discussion of the flowers of space, Dogen is clearly talking about the non-duality of duality and non-duality, not about merely transcending the duality of form and emptiness. Deeper non-duality is not the opposite of duality, but the synthesis of duality and non-duality, with both included, and both seen as ultimately not separate, but integrated. Flowering of space, of the Buddha's teaching, space is our activity and life, the dialectical synthesis of form and emptiness. So, that's a little introduction to the text. I'd like to start on the text and then we'll have some more time for discussion and questions, maybe 15 minutes at the end. So, I'm going to start at the... Again, I'm not going to go through every bit of the text, but I'm going to focus on certain things.

[66:42]

So, in Cleary's translation of Flowers in the Sky, starting at the top of page 67, it talks about the flower blooming in fire. He translates this as Udumbara flower in a couple of other translations. I think it's actually a blue lotus, not Udumbara, just to be technical, whatever it's worth as a footnote. But anyway, this flower always blooms in fire. Want to know fire? It is where the Udumbara flower blooms. You should not, by clinging to views of humanity or views of heaven, fail to learn about in the fire. If you would doubt it, you should also doubt that lotus flowers grow in water. You should also doubt that there are flowers on branches. Also, if you must doubt, you should doubt the structure of the material world. So, don't doubt. So, um, so he starts with this, this image that, that's traditional to Buddhism about these flowers blooming in fire.

[67:47]

And there's also this saying about Buddha's always sitting in the middle of fire. which is sort of a resonance here. This is by way of introducing this idea of flowers blooming in the sky, which seems like nonsense to us from a conventional perspective, but he includes flowers flowering on branches, which is, you know, probably all of you would agree that that's the place where flowers flower, but he's also talking about lotus flowers growing in water, So this is a bouquet of flowers blooming in fire. Okay, so this is, he says, to doubt this is to doubt the structure of the material world. Of course, how he sees the material world is different from our conventional, you know, mass media version of the material world. Okay, so he says, towards the middle of the page, Earth, water, fire, air, and space trees all have flowers and fruits.

[68:51]

Human trees have flowers. Human flowers have flowers. Withered trees have flowers. From such as these existing, there are the flowers in the sky spoken of by the Buddha." So that refers to that quote that I mentioned. Know that in the, so this is at the bottom of page 67, know that in the Buddha way there is talk of flowers in the sky. Outsiders don't know the talk about flowers in the sky, much less consciously understand it. Only Buddhists and adepts alone know the blooming and falling of sky flowers and earth flowers, know the blooming and falling of world flowers, and so on, and know the sky flowers, earth flowers, world flowers, and so on are scriptures or sutras. This is the guideline for Buddhist study because that which Buddhists and adepts ride on is flowers in the sky. the worlds of Buddhas, as well as the teachings of the Buddhas, are in fact flowers in the sky." So here we are, he's already saying this radical, unconventional thing, that the worlds of Buddhas and the Buddha teaching, the Buddha Dharma, are just flowers in the sky.

[70:01]

Going a little further, on top of page 68, Tom Cleary translates this as, Dogen uses strong language sometimes to critique people he thinks are spreading what he sees as ignorant versions of the Dharma. So he was, you know, Dogen is interesting, this is another aspect of just the background, that he was introducing this Zen tradition, these Zen He introduced the Zen Koan tradition and all of this Zen kind of teaching and writing to Japan. There was already a strong Buddhist tradition there, but it's interesting to look at, you know, how he's trying to do this in our context where we're introducing Buddhism, different forms of Buddhism, to our culture anyway. So he does sometimes use much stronger language than this, but anyway. Such people think when they hear that the Buddhists said what eyes with cataracts see are flowers in the sky, that eyes with cataracts refer to the distorted eyes of mentioned beings.

[71:19]

They think that since these eyes are distorted, they perceive non-existent flowers in the sky. And he goes on to say that if the deluding cataracts in the eyes were gone, these people say these flowers in the sky would not be seen, and so there are originally no flowers in the sky. It's a pity that people like this don't know the time and season and process of the flowers in the sky spoken of by the Buddha. About two-thirds of the way down, he has this quote that I mentioned from the Surangama Sutra, it is like someone with cataracts seeing flowers in the sky. When the cataracts, when the affliction of cataracts is removed, the flowers perish from the sky. Well, most people reading this would, you know, think the way that he has just criticized, but Dogen has this And this is very characteristic of Dobyn. Dobyn has this totally different interpretation of this. And he said, so he doesn't think that flowers perishing in the sky is a bad thing at all.

[72:22]

And he doesn't think that seeing flowers in the sky is a bad thing at all. So he goes on, and the rest of it says that they talk about this. There's one should see the flowers in the sky. You should meet the person with cataracts, know the sky, see the flowers in the sky. After seeing the flowers in the sky, one should also see the flowers perish in the sky. Think that once the flowers in the sky cease, they should not exist anymore as the view of a small vehicle. Okay, um... So, um... A little bit more and then I want to stop for discussions. If you only know flowers, in the top of 69, if you only know flowers in the sky as something to be abandoned, do not know the great matter after the flowers in the sky, they do not know the planting, ripening, and shedding of the flowers in the sky.

[73:33]

Then, a little further down, he says, "...all the phenomena of the material world, as well as the fundamental enlightenment, fundamental nature, and so on, are called flowers in the sky." So here he's saying that enlightenment itself is flowers in the sky. And then he says, "...do not ignorantly consider cataracts to be delusive factors, and thus study as if there was something else which is real, that would be a small view. If they are all delusions, there can be no logical reasoning." So part of what he's saying here is that all of it is reality. Try and weigh what is enlightened reality and what is delusive reality is the ultimate delusion. the last paragraph on 69, insofar as enlightenment is a cataract, the myriad elements of enlightenment are all elements of a magnificent array of cataract.

[74:38]

The myriad elements of delusion are all elements of a grandiose array of cataracts. For now we should say that since cataracted eyes are equal, flowers in the sky are equal. Since cataracted eyes are birthless, flowers in the sky are birthless. So he's saying that enlightenment is a cataract. Enlightenment is flowers in the sky. So, okay, I'm going to stop there for now. We'll continue from there next week, and at this point, let's have whatever remaining time for questions, comments on anything from today. Yeah, this is Diane. Hi. You all still there? Yeah, we're all still here. We're all still here and listening. So I guess what I would like to ask is, in this non-duality, which includes all duality, in which enlightenment is a cataract and all cataracts are enlightened,

[75:50]

Is that the environment in which we begin to ask the question, then why practice? Ah. Well, this assumes that the practice from the beginning. So this is the environment based on the importance of doing the Buddha work. So I read from the Self-Fulfillment Samadhi where he which is from Bendowa, where he talks about all space becoming awakened. And, um, there's some scholars say that Dogen went to China because he had that question that you just asked. And his answer, his response is very, very clear. It's the beginning of Bendowa, says, although this Dharma is abundantly inherent in each person, it is not manifested without practice. It is not attained without realization. So this is all based on that. This is seeing the flowers in the sky as awakening, and as awakened, is based on that we see the importance of doing the Buddha work.

[77:07]

And as a teacher, Taigan, I guess a question that I would ask you then is, Do you have the experience at times that someone who's a student might, when they see that enlightenment is flowers in the sky, that there's a little bit of a move towards, therefore, there's no need to practice? And as a teacher, how do you respond to that particular reaction? As a teacher? Well, but I think your question is still based on denigrating the flowers in the sky. Flowers in the sky are wonderful. Flowers in the sky are all the problems we have in our life and in our world. Flowers in the sky are why we need to practice. The flowers in the sky are the obstructions.

[78:20]

The flowers in the sky are the particular difficulties that we face in the world that may look like, well, so I'm not sure I understand your question, I guess. Oh, OK. So let's just open it up to other questions. And let me sit with my question a little bit further. with me pondering a little bit more deeply. So, if you also have comments on the Flowers in the Sky essay, please press one on your handheld. Looks like Rich has a question. Rich Christofferson, he's in Seattle. Go ahead. Hi, how are you doing? I was just curious, you mentioned earlier, you talked about Dogen Zenji turning over the standard view of Dharma, say, in Tokyo, or expressing a dream within a dream. I was wondering if you could kind of describe Dogen's... what he wants to do in this case.

[79:21]

Would you say he's being critical of past teachings, being rather revolutionary, or could he just be playfully expressing, you know, the Dharma as such, using this as a... as a tool, please? I would say both. Um, you know, I think... Lots of difference? Both. I think he's... I think he's... he's certainly being playful, but I think he's also, you know, he was trying to introduce the style of Zen from the tradition that he got in China to, you know, he, I mean, at some point, so just in terms of his teaching life, he, you know, he spent 10 years teaching right outside Kyoto, and then at some point, moved to and set up a Heiji, away from the capital on the mountains, and successfully, everything we're talking, everything that we're looking at now is from the Kyoto period. Later he moved and taught a group of students who really established Soto Zen in Japan.

[80:23]

He's trying to, he is being critical of, I think, other versions of Buddhism that were around then that were dualistic or that were, you know, that were limited in their scope. I think that's true. Okay, and do you feel that the earlier Rinzai teachers in China, and so do the teachers in China, were that dualistic, or is he referring to other forms of Buddhadharma? Uh, maybe both. Both. But, you know, in Bendo Wahi, um, um, he, he, he's asked specifically, he's asked to compare, uh, you know, what he's teaching, what he's introducing to other forms of Japanese Buddhism, And he says very, very, very clearly, don't compare different teachings and philosophies and doctrines, just look at the practice and judge them by the practice and how that is.

[81:25]

So that's his response to that kind of question. He's not interested in comparing doctrines. He's saying, what's the practice? Thank you. And if people have questions about the earlier material that I talked about today also, you know, feel free. Yeah. Um, Magaka, your hand is up again. But also, let me back up, because Rochelle's hand has been up for a little while. Rochelle, do you have a question still? Hi. Yeah. Thank you, Sensei. Um, Tegan, thank you for spending this time with us this morning. You're welcome. And, um... Thank you. that speech has been set up for me lately. And particularly, I run into some situations parenting. For example, my daughter wants to spend the night at someone's house. I don't know the family, so I want to try and find out about the family.

[82:26]

And I realized by asking other people who know them, it puts them in a position of how to talk about that family. So, you know, if they knew something that was untoward, you know, how would you say that without, so yeah, how to honor good speech while sharing shitty information about somebody else? That's a wonderful, important question. And, you know, at our sangha we're having a lay ordination next month. And so, you know, talking about the precepts, I don't know, the 16 precepts usually used Our translation, one of the ten is don't, usually often translated as don't slander. I've come to the translation of don't speak of the faults of others, and I gloss that as don't speak of others' problems in terms of faults.

[83:30]

So sometimes it's necessary, like in the case you're describing, to share information, but it's important not to speak of these things as blame or fault or criticism, but rather how do you speak of something like that in a way that is, that gives the information but that is not, you know, using hateful or harmful speech or, you know. So this is in the context of our trying to use all this in our society. And Nogin, you know, does use, Well, sometimes he uses words like fools or clearly translates it as ignoramuses. There are just a few places right after he moved away from Kyoto where he uses very, very harsh language. Well, as harsh as you can get in Japanese and Chinese, which doesn't compare with the kind of language we use in English, but I think he's just doing that

[84:32]

for effect with the particular students he had who had particular hangups based on their previous teacher and so on. I don't know, you know, but anyway, my response to that is to speak of difficulties with others, not in terms of judgment and fault finding, but in terms of blame, but in terms of giving information and actually to think about how to help, if it's possible, those persons who are acting in a way that's causing harm or whatever. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you. But it doesn't mean never not to share information. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Welcome. Good question. It's an important and practical question for us. Yes. All right. It looks like we have time for one more question. And, LeBrock, you have your hand up. Go ahead. Yeah. I was just going back to the cataract. is from a philosophic perspective, I mean maybe I'm putting too much onto this, but is, can Dogen's Flowers in the Sky be read as sort of saying from the awake perspective, the universe is essentially omniperspective of evil, there are no false perspectives?

[85:48]

Yeah, that's an interesting question. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure he'd say that. That might be a good question to start next time with. I see we're almost out of time. I think what we see as flowers in the sky is also the flowering of the sky. I think that's what he's saying. So let's start with that next time. Great. And I think that's a great question. But let's have a brief period of questions at the beginning next time. But maybe we're out of time now. Okay. All right. So, we'll begin with that question. Thank you, everybody, for being on the call. And, Tygen, especially, thank you so much for taking the time to help us hang out with these essays in the way that we have today. And we're going to go ahead and open up the mics, and everybody can say goodbye, and we'll see you next week at 9 a.m. Mountain. Thank you, everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Thank you very much.

[86:54]

Bye. Bye. Bye everyone. Peace out. Thank you.

[86:57]

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