practice, whether you're practicing jump shots or the piano or some, you know, chess or whatever, whatever thing that you're practicing how to do proficiently, you have to practice, practice, practice. And if you have a teacher, that tells you that you're off key or that you're leaning too much on your left shoulder or whatever it is that you're doing is keeping you from performing better, you can make progress. So a teacher is there merely to help you, just like a piano teacher, to help you perfect your skills and to deepen your practice. Too often we get tied up with the idea that the teacher is somebody special or somebody, you know, exultant or somebody that we have to, you know, like a rock star that we have to like go ooh about. I mean, a teacher is just, a teacher does not have, it's not, at best, if the teacher is not somebody that you think is wonderful, but it's somebody that you let into your life enough to tell you what they see of how you are performing.

[01:12]

There's a famous teacher in Thailand that wrote in one of his books that his job was just to watch his students walk down the road, and if they went a little bit to the right-hand side of the road, he'd yell at them, a little to the left! And if they went the other direction, he would yell to them to turn the other direction. It's not like it's a big deal, it's just a feedback about how your practice is going. And it doesn't have to be a formal Buddhist teacher. It could also be a sick child could be someone to practice with. A significant other that's having difficulties could be someone to practice. Something where you have to come out of yourself and think about what the other person needs, the other situation needs. so that you can respond appropriately. To remove yourself, not just be thinking about yourself, but thinking about what the situation requires.

[02:16]

Many people have found that a handicapped child was a great help to their practice. Anyway, the important thing is that you don't see the teacher as being someone special. Too often, the teacher plays up the role of being the big shot. He gets, because of his position and his power, he manipulates people's lives in a way that's not necessarily healthy. That does not happen in Asia very often. People do not really look up to their teachers that way. The teacher that I studied with in Japan was very gruff and he barely spoke to you at all. If he did, it was just sort of, go sit over there. It was just very, Nothing friendly at all. But when I brought my mother to come visit, he was very chatty and talked to her and showed her around and was very, very friendly.

[03:26]

But for me, to me, he was very, very gruff and very, there's no warmth. And my woodworking teachers, I had two different kinds. I had one kind was sort of sweet, but totally benign. Whatever you were doing, they'd say, oh, that looks very interesting. But they wouldn't tell you what you were doing wrong. They would just say, oh, that's really difficult, isn't it? And you had to like watch and look and guess and try to figure out what it was that you were doing wrong because you knew you weren't doing wrong because the shavings weren't coming out right or the wood was sticking in the wrong places or anyways. There was that kind. And then the other kind of teacher I had that more old-fashioned out in the country was a man that had all these rules that you were supposed to follow. You're supposed to sit up right, and you had the tools that's here on your left, on your left-hand side, and you're supposed to be turned just like, just so.

[04:33]

And he would yell and scream at you about doing it, even though you were doing it that way, and that he'd already told you that 12 times before. So that was, That was sort of the more obnoxious style, but in some ways it was far better teaching because the first one was more of the cat, the sheep, the cow in a big pasture where it lets you roam around and bump into a fence here, bump into a fence there, sort of feel your way around and not and not really know where you were, but sort of figure it out for yourself. And the other way was, is this very strict, rigid pattern that you had to follow. And every time you moved, just like a snake in a bamboo tube, every time you moved, you felt your body, because you felt where you were. You felt your snake-ness, because every time you bumped up against a restraint. And it made you practice really hard. and you learned a lot, but it wasn't pleasant.

[05:36]

So there's the two schools of teaching that I experienced in Japan. The indifferent one was more Anyway, it was pretty laissez-faire, pretty hands-off, big pastor school. But he also, when it came down to it, at Doksan, he came out really strong. So there was that side to it also. But the most important thing is that we're practicing how to deal with our mind and to not get involved in picking and choosing. How to avoid picking and choosing. So that's sort of the hallmark of what we're trying to do. So if you're in a situation where you have limited choice, you can't pick and choose. So you get the feeling of not picking and choosing.

[06:39]

It's not like you should do that all your life. It's not like that's the best way to live your life. This is somehow morally proper or improper. It's purely a training technique. So when you do something, a bamboo tube kind of practice, That's no place for a snake to live. You don't want to ever live there, but you can practice there. So not to confuse the study with the graduation, the study with the... That's the wrong word, graduation, because there's no graduation. But anyway, the study with everyday life. somehow somehow we have we have we all have our likes and dislikes we all like this kind of thing or that kind of thing we all think that these kind of people are great those kind of people are bad and we all think that we have you know some way of dealing with the world that's better than the other guy, or that we're really bad people and we should be punished because we're not good enough.

[07:45]

People have every conceivable way of delusional thinking about themselves and the world, and we all do it. There's nothing, you know, I told that story when I lectured before here about Suzuki Roshi and these crazy people that came down the road to Tassajara that were wrapped in white sheets and thought they were came from the moon. And after they left, I said to Suzuki, I said, well, they were really delusional. And he said, remember, we're all delusional. Remember, we're all delusional. So it's not like any of us have the right answer. Even people that have practiced for a long time, they still have the remnants of their karmic train of previous lives, of previous time. They still have all of their experience that they've grown up with. I mean, being totally free of your karmic role is extremely difficult to attain, and even then it's fleeting.

[08:53]

But that's the reason we have to practice, practice, practice, continuously practice, because to have a clear mind and an open, clear mind to see things directly, to see things directly, and as was lectured a couple of weeks ago, to see things directly, and then you can have the appropriate response. So, there's no right way of doing things, no wrong way of doing things. First, you have to see clearly. And seeing clearly is hard to do, and you have to practice, practice, practice. And if you have a teacher that's willing to practice with you, and you're willing to accept it into your life, it makes it easier. But finding a teacher is not easy, and you can pick a teacher, you know, by being, like I say, a child or a boss or a fellow classmate. You can use people like that to help you be a teacher, to help you develop your openness to reality.

[10:09]

But you have to do it yourself, you have to want to do it. Otherwise you can just mosey around in the big pen and run into the walls here and there and gradually start getting used to what it means to live in you yourself. Thank you, Paul. Just to comment on a few points that you brought up. Well, first and foremost, that it's not about reaching some final destination. This is ongoing. There's no, it's not about some end point or end goal or ultimate, you know, finally you graduate. Finally, you've got it because we all, you know, Can all, can't see every, our eyes are face forward, I can't see behind me. So to think that you have the ultimate truth, we all see only part of the truth.

[11:19]

We may see many parts of the truth. So that goes to the other part, that this is about relationship. Working with a teacher, working with a student is about relationships. So I will say to people, sometimes that your spouse is your teacher also, or your children are your teacher, your partners are your teachers. So working with a teacher is about a relationship, and relationships are often challenging. and things come up and they're difficult. So to be willing to stick with a relationship with a teacher or a teacher with a student is part of the challenge, but that's how we see ourselves. This is true for the student, it's true for the teacher also. So from the side of the teacher, there are different students.

[12:20]

There's not one right, you know, rule or structure or pattern for being a teacher, any more than for being a student. And a lot of it is up to the student. I can't, you know, well, if you go to a place like Tassajara, where you're following a schedule and you're in the bamboo tube, that's easier in a way, because then you're just there, and the schedule is your teacher, and you've got to follow this rigid situation. I think it's more challenging to be in the wide pasture. It takes longer, maybe. Maybe there's more possibilities. I'm not saying one is better than the other. In some ways, you can learn more snake and bamboo for a little while. A little while can be three months or three years or whatever. you learn something that way.

[13:20]

So numbers of people at Ancient Dragon have gone to Tassajara or Green Gulch or places like that for some period. But practicing, you know, Bruce Springsteen said, it's so hard to be a saint in the city. Anyway, we are practicing as lay people, you know, in the, in the wide pasture as it were. But then to work with a teacher, means that you have a responsibility as a student. You have to actually present yourself as a student. You have to be ready to be in relationship. And that means offering yourself to the pastor, not just to whoever is your teacher, but to the situation you're in. to learn from your job, to learn from your relationships, to pay attention.

[14:21]

So being in the wide pasture still, you know, even Zazen that is gentle and where we're not carrying a stick around and hitting you or, you know, telling you, yelling at you to sit up straight or whatever, you still, you're paying attention, even in the wide pasture. What's going on? That way you can learn, but there's not one right way because Each one of you is different. So I often say, I can't tell you how to be Buddha. We sit and we sit like Buddha and express our brightness and express awareness. And we each have to find our own way to express that. And there's not one right way. And it's especially, you know, in the wide pasture, it's maybe especially difficult to find our way. And it changes. And now we're in this very difficult situation where, you know, with the virus and with climate damage and so forth, there's, you know, this is a very challenging time.

[15:28]

How do we practice together? So there's also the teacher, there's also Sangha as teacher. And how do we support each other? But again, in terms of the role of the teacher, you know, I can, try and say, you know, as Paul was saying, oh, you're kind of leaning this way, you're kind of leaning that way, you know, pay attention to this, pay attention to that. But I can't say that unless you, you know, and it's harder now, because, you know, if you're if we're sitting at Temple and Irving Park Road, I can sometimes say something to somebody at tea after zazen. So I wanted to say when I was introducing Paul that Paul is, Zengyu is available now for dokuson, as is Nyozan who is here, and Aishin and myself. And there are other practice leaders who are here, who are at Ancient Dragon, Douglas, and Ogetsu, and Kyoshin, and Paula,

[16:31]

and Laurel. So you can email info at ancient dragon.org and to make appointments with any of us. And this is an opportunity for you to actually, um, you know, uh, be in relationship with whomever you want to here and, or somewhere else, you know, some teachers are very possessive about their students, you know, and they have a very formal relationship and that's not how I feel personally. So if you want to go and check out some teacher somewhere else, fine. The point is, how will you find your way to express Buddha? That's what I care about. And that's really the ultimate why pasture. But there are a lot of virtues to the snake in the bamboo. It's trying that. It's a little harder in our situation. So, Paul, could you say a little more about practicing with a snake in a bamboo tube?

[17:35]

Well, it's just a matter of having some restraint. And the whole concept of freedom through restraint is a very difficult concept for Americans, I think. I mean, it certainly was difficult for me in the beginning. When I first heard, I used to listen to Alan Watts on the public radio in Berkeley when I was in high school. And he would talk about these people that all line up in a row and sit on these little black cushions, and they all wear the same clothes. When the bell rings, they all do exactly the same thing. And I was sort of enamored of Taoism at that time and the grass hut. And I couldn't figure how that regimentation could possibly be anything that would lead to spiritual liberation. It just seemed totally, totally all wrong. And it took me some time, and I had the great fortune of going down to Tassajara, thinking I was going down there just for four days. and ending up staying four years.

[18:39]

And I had the great fortune of meeting Shinryu Suzuki and realizing that I could learn something from this man. So that was just a very, very fortunate thing for me. And I'm deeply grateful for it because I had needs of a little training, shall we say. Anyway, I was, I went down there, I'd been down there the year before and camped out down in Tassau before the Zen Center had bought it. And six of us, three couples that camped out down there and we'd camped out and taken acid and run up and down the creek, naked and swung from trees. It had a sort of a spring break kind of wildness. And so I had friends, friends and family, a cousin, a cousin and one of my best friends were involved in Zen Center. And I was still thinking it was this sort of funny, this sort of regimented thing.

[19:44]

But they just bought the place and they needed someone to help fix it up. So I thought I'd go down and take a look. I had already sold everything to go to Japan. I was on my way to Japan, but I was a little scared to do it. I was 23. And I had a big motorcycle and a girlfriend and some camping gear, and that was it. We went down there. I only had to spend four days and ended up four years. But anyway, I was just very fortunate to find a teacher that was That was, he was, it was extraordinary in the sense that he was never, he was not strict and he was not soft. He was not, maybe he was more, more big pasture than bamboo too, but, but he, he didn't, He was very, he was very open. He was, he was very, he wasn't, he wasn't male and he wasn't female. He was, he was very, he was very, very, very open.

[20:45]

I was a very, very fortunate and, and very fortunate for me anyway. And, and I remember one time, one time he was brought up in, Tygan and I have a teacher in common, and we go to a seminar on Friday in common together. And our teacher, Tenjin, brought up a story that I think we all have heard before. One time, a student asked Suzuki, Why aren't you stricter with us? Why don't you demand more of us? Why don't you make us do things more? Why don't you push us more? And he said, okay, Suzuki said, okay, you want strictness? Every time you see a broom, make sure it's standing with the handle down. That was his idea of strictness. And it wasn't really until, I don't know, I listened to the lecture here from Alan Sanaki. I thought it was just a mindfulness practice to put the broom that way. If you really see what a broom is without any preconceived notions, you see what a broom is, you see that it has soft bristles on one end and a hard handle on the other end, and that you stand it up that way because that's what a broom needs, not to have its bristles all bent and pushed.

[22:11]

So to be able to see directly what things are without any preconceived notions and then respond appropriately is is an incredible gift. Another at least less challenging, very challenging actually, but less restricting thing that I remember Suzuki saying about our life practice is that when you're going down the road and you come to a fork in the road, choose the fork you don't like. So that's another way of having a practice. Go with the things you don't have an affinity for. Go with the things that are difficult for you. Go to the things that are troublesome, that are difficult, or that challenge you. And we can all do that, whether we have a teacher or not. So I think both Paul and I could keep talking, but maybe it's time to open this up for comments, questions.

[23:21]

I imagine that some of you have some questions. And this is a big topic. What is the role of a teacher in spiritual practice? So I'll just open this now and call on people. You can raise your hand or indicate if you have some comment or question. Anyone, please feel free. What crummy students, none of them have any questions. Okay, Nyozan. Yeah, thank you guys. This was really, really quite interesting. And thank you, Paul, for addressing the question about Suzuki Roshi as a snake in the tube or a big pasture guy, because I found myself asking myself that question. Anyway, So this discussion was posed as, you know, what is a teacher?

[24:30]

Taigen mentioned that, you know, teachers are teachers only by virtue of being in a relationship. So you're automatically also talking about students. So I would like to ask both of you, you've spoken a bit about the role of teachers. I wonder if you could say a bit more about two things. One, what the role of a student is, what are the responsibilities of a student to teachers and to a wider responsibility. And also, if you could articulate what you see not only the role of teachers as being, but specifically what their responsibilities to their students are. I'll start that. Um, you know, the main thing, the role of the student is just to show up and to continue, to continue practicing as my, as my role is to encourage you.

[25:42]

You know, so all of this, all of the talks and all of the sutras and all of the koans and all of the teachings that I give, and I think this was Dogen's point too, is just to encourage people, encourage students to continue practicing. So that's the first thing, is just to continue practicing, to continue showing up. More beyond that, to challenge the teacher. Like you just did. Well, what should I be doing? So that's so good to show up and to ask tough questions and to express your questions, your real questions. How do I deepen my practice? And to talk about the challenges in your practice so that I can try and respond Sometimes I'm not going to give you a response that is helpful. Sometimes I might.

[26:44]

But the appropriate response works both ways. So yeah, that's my first response. Paul, do you want to add to that? Well, if you have a formal environment, in classical Buddhist training, you enter the Sanmon, you enter the mountain, so you have to go through a portal, whether the portal is a physical one or not, it's certainly a mental one, and so you enter the mountains. And you have an entering ceremony when you enter the mountain. And here the analogy would be like going to the university and it's mostly based on you plunk down $20,000, $30,000 to get a year's worth of education. So that's sort of the way we enter the mountain here in this culture.

[27:45]

So it's making a certain level of commitment, but you can also just be a parishioner that doesn't enter the mountain, that goes just to listen to, just goes once a week, or goes once a month, or to listen to lectures, or that has an altar in their room where they offer incense to their parishioners. to their parents, or to their friends, or just to Buddha. Just some gesture, some gesture of reverence. If it's not going to be, I mean the vast majority of people that are Buddhists do not go to temples. They do not even sit zazen. And actually what they do mostly is chant. Chanting is the most important part of Buddhist practice in Asia in general. And I sort of miss it because we've sort of left that out of our, the transmission of Buddhism from Asia

[28:56]

to America, and I don't know about Europe, but anyway, it's chanting sort of dropped along the wayside. We've translated our chants into a language that we understand, thinking that we will learn something from them, but where it's actually a physical, visceral experience of chanting, but anyway, I digress. Anyway, It's something you have to decide yourself to do, and you can find many different ways of doing it. Offering incense every morning, sending zazen, of course, on a regular basis, or having a formal relationship with a teacher where you actually, where you consult with them about your practice, where you share your practice with them. Or just simply like a lecture, just going and hearing how the Dharma has been practiced by other people through the centuries. You have to pick the level that you want to participate at.

[30:02]

But it's good to do it intentionally. Just to follow up on that. definitely want to say that there is value to just practicing, coming and hearing talks, practicing on your own. So some people want to have some training, I could say, relationship or a more intense practice relationship with a teacher. Some people come to talks like this, practice, you know, we're each in our own box and chanting is one of the things that Zoom is not so good for. But there is value. This is the wide pasture to your practice. And then joining together like this in sangha. So I did not mean to denigrate that at all. Remember the wide pasture does have a fence around it. So you have to enter the pasture.

[31:04]

If you stand outside the pasture, It's a different situation than if you open the gate and go inside the pasture. So there is a, even if it's a broad commitment, there is some commitment that needs to be made as a student in order for you to develop the power, develop the velocity, develop the escape velocity to move past the inertia of your habitual mind. And everybody who's here, even if you're here for the first time, is in the pasture. So thank you. Other questions or comments or responses? Yes, David Ray. Thank you both for this. Paul, I have a question for you. I heard you say something about not picking and choosing, and I didn't understand what that refers to, whether it refers to zazen or to some other aspect of practice in life.

[32:15]

Well, that's sort of the... That's sort of the simplified version of what Zen's all about. That's sort of the cliff note version or the back of the cereal box version of what Zen is. I used to go, when I was working in Japan, I would go twice a year to a temple in Nagoya run by a woman, Roshi, that Zen Center was associated with somewhat distant way but anyway I would go once a year to this to this temple for a week for a week-long session at the temple and they had those sliding doors called fusuma in the temple, that some of you may be aware of, the big paper, they're not the shoji that are translucent, these are opaque sliding, and they often have paintings on them. They often have, sometimes in Kyoto they have some very famous painters that painted famous scenes on them, and Taiga's got that kind of thing behind him right now as a backdrop.

[33:20]

But also they have calligraphy on them. And often, I guess, some famous guest calligrapher will come and they'll paint the Fusuma as a gift to the temple anyway. So this temple had these Fusuma and it said, enlightenment is a simple matter. You merely need to avoid picking and choosing. Now, there, you can get in big trouble with that limited understanding, but that's a beginning, a place to begin. Once you start saying, I like this, I don't like that, you're sunk into suffering. Other questions, comments, responses? Yes, Ed.

[34:23]

Thanks, Paul. Thanks, Diane. You pointed to this white pasture several times this evening. And I guess I'm a little interested in what it looks like or how it might be further characterized. I suppose maybe in contrast to other forms of teaching or education that we all might be familiar with or spiritual practices. Yeah. Well, it'd be difficult to make direct comparisons to say like academic life, whether you're auditing or whether you've signed up for the class, but it's a level of restraint. And they both have their values. And like I said with my woodworking teachers, the one gave me a lot of space.

[35:28]

and it did not tell me anything. I'd be struggling to do something. He'd come along and say, ooh, that's difficult, isn't it? But he wouldn't tell me what I was doing wrong. So it forced me to focus, to look and look and look and think and think and think and try to figure out what it was that I was doing wrong or what the right way to do it was or how to make the chisel actually sharp, for example. So it had that way had its advantage. And then the more old-fashioned guy that just told you, do this, do this. And even if you were doing it right, he still told you. And they would tell you the same thing over and over again. It gets to you after a while and you actually start, it gets ingrained in you and you start doing it right. And it wasn't easy though, especially as a six foot plus Westerner in Japan, these people that had never been face-to-face with a foreigner before.

[36:42]

I mean, I was in territory that they didn't even speak Japanese, they spoke dialect and they'd never been face-to-face with a foreigner before. And they're part of what they call the shokunin life. It's a little different. It's a subculture of Japan. Somebody seen that movie, Jiro Dreams of Sushi, anyway. But he was not very big, and he had hard leather shoes, like everybody else had like rubber soles, but he had hard rubber shoes. You could hear him clop, clop, clop across the shop floor. And so you'd sit up straight, and you'd get everything lined up and everything. And he'd come up and yell, which is slang for you're totally fucking up. And then he'd get up. So as I started to get up, he kicked me in the ass. And he was like, you know, like five foot three or something, you know. And I came very close to decking him. It was hard.

[37:42]

It set off something in my American soul that was a little violent. But anyway, I managed to remain myself. And he sat down, he said, do it like this. And of course, he was doing it just the same as me. But there's more stories about that that are from a different subject on the mind. But anyway, so I learned how to perform. I learned how to get my posture right and how to get my tools in a spot so that I could do it smoothly and how to move from one step to the next. And there's an incredible efficiency in that, an incredible, concentration and focus and it takes it to another level as a graduate level but But I think there's the things that we have that are like that are like music, classical music, especially where you practice, practice, practice.

[38:46]

And some people are, you know, entertain their friends and family, and some people perform on stage. And sports, you know, people practice, practice, practice, playing various different sports. And some people just play, you know, say a lot of baseball, and some people are, you know, play in Yankee Stadium. There's all different levels of what you can do, and there's one that's probably just as enjoyable as the other, if not as lucrative. I'll say something else about the practicing in the wide pasture. In some ways, I think that's more advanced practice, or more challenging practice. So, you know, there's an introduction to a koan that says for The middling students, you kind of turn around and show them something. For the lesser students, you direct them really closely.

[39:48]

For the advanced students, you turn around and face the wall and ignore them. I think, you know, the kind of practice that most of you are doing, just coming, you know, practicing with some guidance from the Dharma, from Sangha, from talks here. Some of you come in and consult with me or with other practice leaders at Ancient Dragon, but you're out there in the world. And that's, that wide pasture is really challenging. It's difficult to see how you're doing. And sometimes myself or Nyozon or somebody can can, uh, you know, kind of nudge you one way or another, but you have to rub against the world and get into trouble and see how that is.

[40:49]

Uh, so it's, it's, this, this is a really challenging practice, the way we're practicing. Uh, and I kind of, you know, I have to say, I kind of believe in challenging students I don't want to kind of give you a kind of instruction manual of how to live your life. And I don't think I can do that anyway. Maybe some teachers can do that. But I think we, on some level, have to learn for ourselves who we are, what works for us, make mistakes, it's really important to make mistakes. Hopefully not make harmful mistakes, make good mistakes or make mistakes that, you know, you can work with. So that's part of the wide pasture, but pay attention to what's happening in the pasture.

[41:55]

That's what's important and keep coming back to Zazen. So that's what I would say about practicing in the wide pasture. It's challenging. It's not easy. It's not easy. And sometimes it's good to put yourself into a situation where you're in a bamboo tube and someone's showing you more directly a way of practicing. So both have their value. Anyway, that's what I want to say. Yes, Joe Kai. Hi, good evening. I was wondering what exactly practice meant in the context of like a wild pasture or a snake in a tube. What are we talking about when we say Zen practice?

[42:58]

You want me to take that? Yeah, why don't you go ahead. Practice is anything that you decide it is. So you have to decide, I'm gonna practice brushing my teeth every morning. I'm going to practice... squeezing homemade orange juice for myself and my significant other. I'm going to practice whatever. You have to set what the practice is. You need to set what the practice is and then practice it. And then say, oh, I forgot this morning. Or, oh, I don't feel like doing that today. Or, oh, that's not really what I want to do. But you have to set some You have to set, you can't just sit down at the piano and start plunk, [...] plunking. You have to like pick a tune that you're going to play and then try to practice playing it. If you just plunk, plunk, plunk, you don't learn anything. So it's just like, it's just like that. It's as simple as that. You have to You have to come up with something.

[44:03]

And you can be arbitrary, and you can fail at it. Succeeding is not the important thing. The important thing is setting a guide, setting a destination, and then seeing how close you get to it. And you can have somebody else involved in setting that guide with you, or you can do it on your own. Or you can observe that somebody that you know would like you to do something in particular, that you could try to do that. It doesn't matter what it is. But you have to pick something. You have to pick something to practice. And you can start off small, getting up at the same time every morning. putting your shoes in a certain way when you take them off. There's countless things you could do that will qualify as practice and each one will give you more strength and more control over your thinking process and more control over your attention to being present.

[45:07]

Yes, I agree. Intention. What is your intention? that has a range. You know, we chant the four bodhisattva vows at the end of this. That's a wide intention, but there's, you know, you can have particular intentions. So yes, I'll just second what Paul said. Yes, Juan Pablo. Oh no, I'm sorry, Idan. Thank you. I wanted to ask how far can this relationship between a teacher and a student go? Because I know in the West, you sometimes give your whole life to the guru or the teacher. So how can it happen here in the modern life?

[46:16]

You live in a city and you have a family and I think it's more challenging. What is the place of the teacher? Is it more than your job and your family or is it to support those things? And what is his responsibility if things start to not go so well with your life? things get challenging, is he responsible or is he just there to guide you and you're on your own and it can just disappear if things go wrong. I'll just say a couple things about that and maybe Zengu can add but in our tradition anyway in Soto Zen it's not about being guru or being you know having some superpower or something but it's just to help you to more deeply be yourself and express yourself and follow your intention and open and develop and deepen your life expression.

[47:31]

So that's what I would say. And to help you, I can't fix, you know, so no teacher can fix everything. That's not the point. We can't take care of everything in anybody's life necessarily, but just to support you to be more fully yourself. There are, you know, formally in terms of Zen practice and training in our tradition, Some people take lay ordination and lay precepts. Some people take priest ordination. Nyozon, for example, received teacher authorization from me, so he's now a teacher. But the point of just being a student and working with a teacher is for them to help you develop what you want in your life. So that's what I would say. Thank you, do you have comments?

[48:35]

I think the worst thing a teacher can do is make you dependent on them. Yeah. So if you come and say, oh, I'm broke and I can't do this and I can't, my wife's mad at me and the kids won't do what I say and stuff. But the teacher should just kick you in the shins and remind you to shape up and try something else. The teacher tries to solve your problems for you, that's a bad teacher. The only thing a teacher can do is suggest that you might look at things a little bit different way, that's all. That's the best they can do. And then to help you And then to give you some piece of something to practice on, a piece of something to practice on, and then discuss with you how you are dealing, how you are faring in that practice. It's definitely, it's not therapy.

[49:38]

It's not, we're not trying to fix, we're not trying to fix you, fix your life. You have to come to a point where you, where you, That's hard to say. Hard to say. Where you step outside your life, where you step out past your life, where you become one with your life and not go fight with your life, no matter what it is. Good. So we're running towards the end of time, but if somebody has one more comment or question. Douglas? Yes, I guess this is directed to both of you who've spent a good bit of time in monastic environments. And Ziggy, you particularly mentioned how in your training in working with wood, there was so much teaching and how to

[50:41]

sit, how to arrange your tools and so on. And that's very much the case in a monastery. You know, sit like this, stand like this, leave your shoes like this, step through the door like that, this is how you eat, this is how you bathe, this is how you take shit. That helps certainly in a way requires a certain amount of attention that can wake you up. But that's just not an environment that we have in lay life. And I'm wondering if there's an equivalent or if that's a problem for us. You can pick something. We have plenty of equivalences in lay life, like I say, whether it's getting up in the morning or how you put your shoes. There's how you address your significant other or how you address yourself. um um there's there's it's there's many many things you can do it doesn't have to be something so dramatic it can be a very something very simple but you need to like you need to like intentionally pick it out so this you know

[51:56]

How you open the door, it doesn't really matter, but you have to pick it out and then consciously do it. Shoes, of course, in Japan are a big one because everybody takes their shoes off. That's the big thing here in this country. It's, you know, how you, whether you say some kind of grace before you eat. I mean, that's a good one, to honor the food before you eat. Everybody eats and everybody can stop and say, thank you for this food. There's many, many, many things that you can do as part of incorporating into your life that you have to then be conscious of and mindful of in order to do them. And it's the doing of them themselves is of little or no consequence. And forgetting to do them is maybe even better than doing them because you say, oh, excuse me, my mind was going off. I didn't, I wasn't there for that, I wasn't present for that.

[53:00]

So doing it, you can sort of do it mindfully, do it mindlessly, just like you get into a routine and just do it, then you gotta find something else to do it, once you reach that point of just doing it that way. That's why Suzuki Roshi's like Westerners so much, because we were so fucked up, we were so crazy. And that's why you call it beginner's mind, because the Japanese just go through the routine, they can just, oh yeah, They're just going to go into space because they're trained that way from a child. And boom, boom, boom, they just do it without really participating in it. They just do it. And we had to struggle with it and fail at it and question it and rebel against it and push back. constantly struggled with it, and he thought that was very wonderful to teach people that were so willing to learn. Thank you. Thank you.

[54:03]

So, maybe with that, let's close formally. We'll do the Bodhisattva vows, and then we'll have announcements.

[54:14]

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