Good evening. Good evening. Welcome. Good to see you all. I want to talk about one of these old teaching stories of Koans tonight. I've been looking at volume 9 in my section of Dogen's extensive record, where he has 90 of these with his own verse comments. I was looking at a couple of them today, and I wasn't sure which one to talk about. One of them is... They're both sort of involved. One of them is more straightforward and I might have more to say about it. But then I thought I'd talk about this other one, which is kind of challenging in a number of ways, and I'm not sure that I have much to say about it. But we'll try it. I hope it doesn't offend anyone. So, the story goes that once Panjong Baoji, who was a disciple of the great horse ancestor, Mazu, one of the great figures of early Zen, once Panjong was walking through the marketplace, and he saw a customer buying pork.

[01:17]

He said to the butcher, cut me one good piece. The butcher put the knife down, stood, hands folded, And we translated it in Shashua, but I'm not sure. Maybe he was like this. Anyway, the butcher put his knife down, stood there with hands folded, and said, sir, which is not a good piece. Upon hearing these words, Pan Shan had insight. So Dogen actually has two different verses about this. And I'll read the story again. once Ponchon was walking through the marketplace and he saw a customer buying pork. Of course, Ponchon himself wasn't doing that. And the customer said to the butcher, cut me one good piece. The butcher put the knife down, stood with hands folded and said, sir, which is not a good piece. Upon hearing these words, Ponchon had insight. So, you know, this is...

[02:20]

You know, you might have gone to a store yourself and looked at two, I don't know what, maybe two flowers and said, give me the good one. Sir, please cut me, or sir, which is not a, which, sir, one, like cut me one good piece. And this butcher is sort of the lowest the lowest of livelihoods in Buddhism. Buddha stood with his hands folded and said, so which is not a good piece? So you might remember that the young man said, every day is a good day. Still, it's interesting that the story is about a butcher. I don't eat red meat myself. I confess I sometimes eat fish or birds just occasionally.

[03:28]

I have made a vow to never eat pork again in this lifetime. But in this story, the butcher has something to say, which is not a good piece. So maybe the butcher's just offended that the customer would think he might give him a stringy piece, or a piece that's bad, or I don't know what, which is not a good piece. And Panchen had some insight into this. So sometimes we sit all day and he might say to me, Teacher, please give me a good periodist. which is not a good period. And yet we do that, don't we? And there's also this Taoist story from Zhuangzi, and I forget it exactly, so correct me if I get it, if someone knows and I get it a little bit wrong, but it's about, also about a butcher who, and something to do with the quality of his knife, and maybe the official asks him how many times, how often was he,

[04:50]

He sharpens his knife, and a really good, excellent butcher said, oh, I've never sharpened it, because he always cuts in the space between. So he draws some praises into that. How do we find the space between things? How do we find a good piece? Or is there such a thing as a not good piece? So this is a real question. But when Panchan heard the butcher, he had some insight, he had some awakening. So I don't know that I have a whole lot more to say about this. The other one I could have talked about more, but somehow, anyway, I'm talking about this one. And I'm interested in your comments. So part of these teaching stories, these koans, are not riddles or mysteries to solve.

[05:57]

They're not about getting the right answer. These are stories that help us see aspects of our practice. So sometimes when we have tea and cookies in the back, or sometimes during sittings in the afternoon, The tray comes around and there's cookies. And you might say, oh, which is the good one? Katie's smiling. She's had that thought. And so it's natural. We want the best one, right? Some of you who have siblings might have gone through contesting with your sibling who would get the best piece. But this butcher just stood there, put his knife down, stood there and said, sir, which is not a good piece.

[06:58]

So Dogen has a couple of different verses about this. Well, maybe before I get to Dogen, does anybody have any comments or reflections on the basic story, first of all? Nobody was offended by his story about a butcher. You know, I immediately thought, like, what's right and what's wrong, and what's bad and what's good, and sometimes there's really neither, and there are a lot of things that have come up in my life. You mentioned flowers, like I said as a kid, which I'm very happy about today. Congratulations. One more. I'm a grandfather for the second time, and this is a beautiful child. Congratulations.

[07:59]

So which grandchild is your good one? So we were, my other daughter and I and my granddaughter were picking up flowers today. And you mentioned flowers, and they're all beautiful. Which ones attract you? Are you attracted to them, or do you think your daughter would be attracted to them as well? And then you took various flowers and said, man, I like that pretty much, my daughter. And I think that's what I'm going to do with the day. Thank you. Great. Yeah, yeah. Picking flowers, which ones? Picking children. So thank you for that. Yeah. And this is actually about something that we all go through all the time. This is an everyday occurrence. Cut me a good piece. I want a good one.

[09:00]

So Doga has two verse comments. The first one goes, right at the crossroads, he lost his legs. Unexpectedly, seeing the red face in the light of day, stained with dust, his spirit was also in disarray. From the outset, realizing Buddhadharma is not careless." That's all we did again. Right at the crossroads, he lost his legs. So, you know, it says that that's an expression for falling down. but it also could mean losing face, what we call losing face, losing one's place. Right at the crossroads, he lost his lens. It may have other meanings, too. Unexpectedly, seeing the red face in the light of day, stained with dust, his spirit was also in disarray.

[10:12]

From the outset, buddhadharma is not careless, or realizing buddhadharma is not careless. So, Dogen's introducing a number of questions about this situation. So all of these stories, they're not, you know, they're a particular situation, particular people, particular place and time, and there's something that happens. And it may look like one person is right and the other is wrong and vice versa, but there's always a number of things going on. Right at the crossroads, he lost his legs. Maybe he fell down. Maybe he lost face. Maybe he let go of everything, not letting him run. It seems to be what happened. So, this seems to be referring to Ponshock, who observed this event, this dialogue between the customer and the butcher. Unexpectedly, seeing the red face in the light of day."

[11:17]

So, that's pretty evocative. I'm interested to hear reflections on that. Stained with dust, his spirit was also undisturbed from the outset, realizing that Buddhadharma is not careless. So, any thoughts about that? about the red face or about carelessness. So on the surface of it, it may be that this customer is careless, maybe he's disrespecting the butcher, or maybe he's disrespecting the court, or maybe he's disrespecting himself. So again, these stories are not about figuring out some right answer. What comes up for you? Seeing the red face in the light of day. So this might mean youthful or healthy face, but maybe it's seeing the original face in full Buddha nature, in the light of day.

[12:29]

And as we just said in Harmony of Difference and Sameness, Right in light, there is darkness. In the light of day, we see the differences. We see, oh, that's a good piece. That's not such a good piece. We think that way. Staying with dust, the spirit is also in disarray. And again, we might look at who has Dogen talking about. It seems like he's talking about Panchen. But maybe he's talking about any of them. Maybe he's talking about us observing Panchen, observing the butcher and his customer. From the outset, realizing Buddha nature is not careless. So any thoughts about that? Yes, Mike? So maybe a comment on our dualistic thinking, to be careful of following

[13:36]

easily into that mind trap. Yeah. So is it careless to fall into picking and choosing? There's a famous poem attributed to the third ancestor that says, the way is simple, just don't pick and choose. And here we have this customer insisting to the butcher, please give me a good one. Making him pick and choose. Katie? So is scratching one's head carelessness about realizing the Buddhadharma, or is that being careful? And what does it mean to be careless in this case? Yes. I have two questions. Good. It's the crossroads where he lost his legs.

[14:42]

Yeah, maybe like Robert Johnson was in this film. Yeah, that's exactly right. And in Western imagery, the crossroads is such an important place. It's where you make some major decision, you know. Yeah, right. And this is... So is it the same? Well, he's walking through the marketplace, but it's kind of, you know, I think that's here. And actually anything, you know, if you see it there, it's there. And then my other question is about red face, because red face means embarrassment, humiliation, Something very emotional. Good. I'm sorry. Maybe it's that red face. Well, I don't... It is, since you said it. So, this is not... This isn't about getting some... It's an enigmatic image when getting to a crossroads and flopping down and having a red face.

[15:53]

Right. It's really pretty spectacular. Yeah, something happens here. Something happened in the story, and Dogen's pointing it out. And did it happen to Pancham? Did it happen to the customer? Did it happen to the butcher? Did it happen to the pig? I don't know. We can see it in all of those ways. But yeah, I like that. Yes, a red face is embarrassment, right? Yeah. So who's embarrassed here, the customer? Well, that would seem obvious, but it seems to be talking about Well, maybe he's talking about the customer, but it's interesting. When I first read it, I thought that it was Panshan who was asking the butcher about this. But then I realized that he sees a customer going for it. Of course, it's not Panshan this moment. But there's something about that, too. Maybe Panshan is the customer.

[16:54]

I don't know. Maybe that's why he was embarrassed. Part of working with these stories is not trying to figure out the right answer. Please don't do that. See what comes up that shows us something about our own way of thinking. So yeah, it's the crossroads. And he lost his legs. His legs came out from under him. He flopped down on the ground and said, Give me that guitar. No, no. We have a number of musicians actually here today. Unexpectedly seeing the red face in the light of day. So sometimes Duggan uses like the red heart or the red, you know, is a kind of image of something tender. But I think what you're saying, a red face as embarrassment or as raw, something, some powerful experience.

[17:56]

Yes, ma'am? Couldn't the red face see exertion, like trying really hard and then just falling down because he'd given up trying? That's good, yeah. He let go of something and yet there was a kind of commitment there. He was actually paying attention to this customer and the butcher. And the butcher did something pretty dramatic in a way. I don't know. But maybe that's not where you were going with that. I don't know what I was going with. I was just trying to think of other ways that your face could be red. I don't know. OK. That's good. It could be all bloody. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody was all bloody, the pig at least. Staying with dust, his spirit was also in disarray. So he's flopping on the ground, embarrassed, or seeing the original face of Buddha nature in the light of day.

[18:58]

And right in the middle of his making distinctions between good and bad pieces, staying with dust, his spirit was also in disarray. From the outset, realizing Buddhadharma is not careless. That's a really interesting line. What does it mean to be careless or to be not careless in this kind of situation? Is not choosing carelessness? Go ahead, Jim. I think the butcher put the knife down very carefully. Ah. Yeah, this butcher is pretty impressive, actually. He might be low class by definition almost, but something. There's some dignity there. I don't know how different the story would be if he held out the knife. Aha. Good. Very good. Yeah, what if he held out the knife and said, sir, which is not a good piece.

[19:58]

That's sort of menacing. But he didn't. He put it down. He put down his sword. So, you know, it's sort of Somewhere in there is this idea, well, how is it to be, what does it mean to be careful? In the middle of realizing something, in the middle of realizing choicelessness. Well, there's another poem by Dogen, so we get another view. He does this sometimes in his text. Sometimes he writes one poem. Usually he writes one four-line poem, but sometimes he'll do two, or sometimes he'll do one longer one. So, this time he says, at the crossroads a person buys meat. One with courage asks for a good piece.

[21:02]

The blood and marrow enters the hands of the spring spirit. With panchan seeing, the flowers are naturally red. So that's even more interesting. At the crossroads, a person buys meat. And again, I like the Western image of Robert Johnson, the image of the crossroads here. I think it adds something. At the crossroads, a person buys meat. So a marketplace is also like a crossroads. It's a place where people come together. If you think this is a feudal society, so people are coming from all directions to the market to shop, to buy or sell. One with courage asks for a good piece. So here, Dogen's praising the customer. He had the nerve to say, I want a good one.

[22:08]

That's interesting, it turns it. Somehow I keep thinking of Oliver Twist. Please, sir, can I have some more? The blood and marrow enters the hands of the spring spirit. With Panchen seeing, the flowers are naturally red. So there's a whole number of things we could do with this last line. One comment, Panchen's name, one scholar suggests, it means flat-topped mountain, Shana's mountain. And in Japanese, Banzan also sounds like the words for 10,000 mountains. Thus this line might be read, see that the 10,000 mountains, the whole world, are naturally covered with red flowers. So again, in the first poem we talked about a red face.

[23:17]

Here he's talking about red flowers. Any thoughts about this? Hector, you work with imagery, but what comes up to you? The image that came about red flowers were the fields of World War I in France, which were covered with red poppies that were feeding on the corpses of this great carnage. And in London, in the UK, for the anniversary of World War I, people wear plastic red poppies So for me, that image, that second poem is bringing together the carnage of the pig, which I kind of pictured hanging from a hook in the middle of this market.

[24:34]

And then that line about the bone and marrow is in the hands of the spring spirit. Reminds me of Dylan Thomas's The Force Set Through the Green Fuse Drives the Flower, Drives My Red Blood. Would you say that one again, please? I'm not sure that I got the middle part right. The Force Set Through the Green Fuse Drives the Flower, Drives My Red Blood. It's a poem about the closeness of death and life and that connection between decay, feeling, beauty. Hmm, decay and beauty, great. Yes, of course, this is a story about life and death. Yeah. And yeah, thank you for mentioning the red poppies. Just this last time reading it, I finally saw that the flowers are actually red, maybe they're covered with blood. Or fed with blood. Or what? Or fed with blood.

[25:36]

Or fed with blood. Yeah. Right. So, yeah, I mean, there's something about the story that, first reading for me, it's not about, you know, eating animals. It's about something about this butcher who sees, and it's about good and bad and not choosing good or bad. But actually, Dogen brings it back to the pig. the victim of the story. But the blood and marrow enters the hands of the spring spirit is interesting too. The spring spirit, you know, this kind of Maybe, oh, the first line, with Panchen seeing, might literally mean when the spring spirit sees Panchen.

[26:42]

So it could be read, the blood and marrow enters the hands of the spring spirit, which sees Panchen, and the flowers are naturally there. Chinese is slippery. It could be written in a few ways. So again, the point of looking at these stories is not to get one right kind of interpretation, but to see what it brings up for us. And there's a lot of issues here. There's, what is it that Panshan saw that gave him some insight? There's this basic situation of the crossroads. where things are bought and sold and where meat is for sale and there's butchering happening.

[27:46]

So, this also has to do with just how and what do we eat. But there's also just, there's something about, there's something very dignified about this butcher putting the knife down and saying, which, sir, which is not a good piece. So, whenever, whichever, whatever judgment we want to take here, it sort of slips a little. Kyoshin, do you have any reflections? I know you don't all have the text in front of you, and it's sort of amorphous, but that's okay. So, I mean, the first obvious responses to the story was, for me, was, you know, what a jerk he wants to take the best piece and leave the inferior stuff for the rest of the people.

[28:56]

Good. And so I'm just puzzling over why Bogan says he's courageous to do that. I'm not quite getting my mind around that. That seems... I mean, because the other part of taking the best piece is, you know, creating waste, which is such a horrible thing, especially a horrible thing to kill this creature. Right. So what is the courage there? I'm not understanding that in any way. Good. So the point of these stories is not to get some understanding, but to bring up questions. So that's a good one. Why does Dogen say that the one who asks for a good peace is with courage? Yes, hi.

[29:57]

I mean, I'm not speaking necessarily specifically to anything, but my overall impression is certainly just about being lost in choice and being static because of it. And so if there are, I don't know, I might be reaching, but. It's OK, that's part of the deal here, has to reach out. And the guy that's, you know, asked for a good piece because at least he knows what he wants, or at least he has direction, so he's not, you know, giving up at the crossroads, he's just... He's stating his case. Yeah. Also, I mean, of course, you know, the idea of the... Initially, it just made me think about, you know, any part of the pig could provide sustenance. So, that makes me think about also not only being lost in choice, but being lost in dissatisfaction prior to actually doing anything.

[31:02]

And a lot of that just has to do with where I'm at in my life right now. So, a lot of that's just... But it does go back to... You know, you and I are saying every day is a good day. Every piece is a good piece. There's something. And the way you said it, that there's sustenance to be had for those who eat meat, for many part. And then what Laurel said reminded me of Suzuki Roshi. He used to go to the market. Of course, he was only getting vegetables, but he would purposely choose the wilted, the kind of starting, the not so good vegetables, you know, as a kind of practice. Maybe out of sympathy for them, or maybe not to waste them, or just that's what he did. So the whole question of choice, what do we choose? Yes, Hector? This is kind of very anecdotal, but... As some of you know, I work at a store, so I am the merchant sometimes, and I think that- You're the butcher.

[32:06]

Not the butcher. In today's world, most of the time, customers do not come to me and say, can I have one good piece? They say, which one do people get? Do you not have a personal opinion? You're allowed to spend a few hundred dollars on something you probably didn't make. Well, at least choose the one you like. That always rubs me off the wrong way, and I get this very, very often. Which one do people get? Which is the most popular? Computer, hardware, whatever. Not which is the best. What does it mean to me, a good piece? What's that? Lack of fat. Lack of fat, okay. Well, I think in this case that's kind of clear. But, you know, are there some software systems that are fatter than others or leaner than others?

[33:10]

Hector works at the Apple stores. But the question of quality from an aesthetic point of view, I mean, you know, quality involves discrimination. And it doesn't involve choosing and picking and separating and deciding that not all things are equal or created equal. So that also plays into it, I think, quite interestingly. Yeah. And so, again, the harmony of difference and sameness we chanted talks about making, in the light, we see the differences. We see the distinctions. We decide this one has more this one has more of this or more of that, this one has better quality. We make those distinctions, and yet it's in the dark where insight usually arises, where we see the unity of all things. So in some ways, this is an unusual story, because Panchen had insight right out there in the marketplace.

[34:19]

not sitting up in his temple in the mountains somewhere. But he had the insight of the marketplace after the butcher said, well, what do you mean? Which is not a good piece. All the computers are good, right? You see? So there's something about this story that has to do with that edge, seeing beyond picking and choosing, but also, yeah, this is a good piece, this is a bad piece. Well, what about that? This butcher said, sir, which is not a good piece. So thank you all very much for playing with this story.

[35:26]

The point of these stories is not to get some answer about them, but to allow them to inform our practice body and bring up questions for us as we practice together. So thank you for your comments and reflections.

[35:47]

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