Recently, someone told me a story that goes something like this. The Buddha, maybe the historical Buddha in India, gave somebody an assignment or a job of arranging people's shoes, like maybe outside of a teaching hall. So the person had this job of arranging the people's shoes. Like we have downstairs, we have a shoe rack. Most of you put your shoes there yourself.

[01:02]

We don't have a person who arranges the shoes. But this person, I guess, arranged the shoes. And I guess they did that shoe arranging job for a while. I don't know, a week or a year, I don't know, 10 years, 20 years, that was their job. And then the person who told me that story said, and doing that job, the person, I think the person told me this story, doing that job, the person who arranged the shoes became awakened, enlightened. That's how the story went.

[02:17]

Now, there could have been another story, which you probably heard before. The Buddha gave somebody a job, and their job was to sit still and quiet. And then the story goes, they did that practice for a week or a year or 10 years or whatever, and they became awake, they became enlightened. That story might seem more familiar. This one was like somebody who arranged shoes and became enlightened. Now, I liked that story, and this person who told me liked it too, but I thought of, basically, I had kind of a comment on that story in my mind, which was, the Buddha gave that person

[03:18]

the job of arranging the shoes, and their arranging the shoes was and is awakening, rather than they arranged the shoes and then they woke up. But what did they wake up to? Well, I would propose, for your consideration, that they woke up to that arranging shoes is awakening. Does it require that the shoes be arranged in any particular way? I mean, does it have to be done correctly, or is there something like that about the story? Um... If you ever arrange any shoes,

[04:22]

however you arrange the shoes must be awakening. If you arrange the shoes in the wrong way, that must be awakening. If you do it the right way, that must be awakening. But we could amplify the story and say, she arranged the shoes in the right way, and she became enlightened. But the way I'm saying today is, her arranging the shoes was enlightenment. The Buddha told her to arrange the shoes, and she arranged the shoes. Now, what if the Buddha hadn't told her? Maybe, you know, the Buddha didn't say, arrange the shoes. She didn't hear, or he didn't hear the instruction, arrange the shoes.

[05:23]

She didn't. And these shoes were not being arranged, you know, at the Buddha's teaching site. She was just arranging shoes. And she woke up after many years of arranging shoes, which the Buddha didn't tell her to do. She woke up. That's another story. But this story was the Buddha told her to arrange the shoes, I think. So, that story, the way I am seeing the story is a version of, that the practice doesn't lead to enlightenment. The practice is the realization of enlightenment. Enlightenment must be our life.

[06:35]

If it's not, that's not what some people like me mean by awakening. Awakening must be our life right now. It's not our life in the future or the past. Well, it's that too. It's our life in the past, and it's our life in the future. It's our life. And some of the people, for example, one of the people who taught that the practice you're doing, for example, sitting or arranging shoes, the practice you're doing is the enlightenment that you're doing, that you're living. The practice you're living is the enlightenment you're living. One of the people who taught that, that the practice is the awakening, is the practice,

[07:36]

then wrote a book or wrote 95 essays to kind of make clear that that's actually the case. 95 essays on how practice is enlightenment. It's so simple and so singular, the situation, that people just can't believe it. So he wrote 95 essays. And the essays, many of the essays start out with a Zen story. About what? About how Buddha's awakening, which realizes nirvana,

[08:40]

Buddha's awakening realizes nirvana, and it also realizes that nirvana cannot be different from samsara. Buddha's realization is exactly the same as the practice, and the practice is what you're living right now. So the person who teaches, and he's the person who wrote this chant we just did, call him A.H. Dogen, he taught that the practice and the enlightenment are the same. Enlightenment is practice, practice is enlightenment. They're one singularity. But again,

[09:46]

people have trouble believing that. So he also taught that our practice is devotion to sitting, and going to talk to the teacher, and ask questions, and listen to the teaching. Those two are together. The practice, the sitting, the sitting is enlightenment. So the sitting is practice enlightenment sitting. However, we still should go talk to the teacher to see if we really believe that, and see if we understand that correctly. So those two together. Talking to the teacher also is practice, which is realization. So in explaining how,

[10:53]

for example, the practice is enlightenment, and enlightenment is the practice, he brings up all these Zen stories. And he did not bring up the story, in that book, those 95 fascicles, I don't think he brought up the story about the person who arranged the shoes, but other stories. Yes? In the story of the shoe arrangement, she didn't hear the Buddha say it, and she thought that she came up with it on her own, without the thought of her own. And she said, if she died, it would be wonderful. So,

[11:57]

did you say she thought something was her own idea? If I think that I come up with something on my own, if I think that, that thought is kind of like arranging shoes. Or it's like sitting in meditation. It's something I'm thinking. And it's something I'm living, I'm doing. And me thinking that I do something on my own, which is not true, that I'm doing something on my own. But anyway, me thinking that enlightenment cannot be other than that.

[13:01]

Yes? Is everything enlightenment? No. Why not? I don't know. Why not? Yes? Yes. Pardon? What about delusion? Delusion is not different from enlightenment. But we don't say that delusion is enlightenment.

[14:11]

Pardon? Well, they sure could be. So this person in the story might have been totally deluded, arranging the shoes, and then they were awake. And then they were arranging, they could probably continue to arrange shoes, I don't know. But now they weren't deluded anymore. Where did the delusion go? Did delusion go away? Hmm? We have a no here. The awakening was right there with the delusion all along. But in the story, maybe the person didn't realize the enlightenment was right there with the delusion. So then they were completely deluded, missing out on the completely enlightened. But the enlightenment was there all along

[15:23]

Buddha was there all along with this person who, I guess, knew that the Buddha was there all along. And maybe the person was happy to arrange the shoes for the Buddha who was there all along. And then the person woke up to that the Buddha was there all along. Which they somehow didn't get. Even though, in fact, the Buddha was there all along. And the practice they were doing was exactly the same as the Buddha that was there all along. By coincidence, the Buddha assigned that practice. But the person did not understand. But when they understood, they understood that the understanding was there all along. But that doesn't mean everything's enlightenment. It just means enlightenment must be practice. And everything must be practice.

[16:26]

Everything must be practice. And not a practice which leads to enlightenment. But everything must be a practice which is enlightenment. Because that's, in fact, the people who are, like the person who just said that is a person who's teaching that. Who's teaching that everything must be practice. And the reason everything must be practice is so that everything can be enlightenment. But if what we're doing is not practice and enlightenment, then we don't say that everything's enlightenment. Subject, object, until the object evolves into one another. Do you mean like

[17:31]

is everything the goal of enlightenment? Do you mean by object? The observation of what did you say, the goal? Well, you said object. I said, do you mean object like in the point of like in the case of the point or the goal of everything? As an observation, what we see. What we see. So we see Well, you can say everything. Everything's an object. Enlightenment's looking at everything. Enlightenment looks at delusion. Enlightenment looks, observes the delusion. It does. It observes all delusion. And it observes, observes, observes. And then at some point it's not, they dissolve. There is no, it doesn't exist. Well, enlightenment, no, they don't dissolve. Enlightenment, when enlightenment observes things, enlightenment observes in a way

[18:32]

of realizing that it's not looking at something different from itself. That's the way enlightenment looks at delusion. Enlightenment looks at delusion non-dualistically. I don't understand. If you're observing, in your observation, what you're observing is not, there must be some difference. If there's no difference, then there's no observation. There's nothing, nothing to be observed. No, that is incorrect. There can be observing without there being anything observed. But usually when we observe, we think we're observing something which is separate from the observation. But observation

[19:33]

can be going on without something being observed. But anyway, Buddha is observing all things. Buddha is observing all delusion. And that observation is non-dualistic. Buddha is observing all the dualistic delusions. That's what it's observing. All the people who have dualistic minds, Buddha is observing all of them. And Buddha, there's no object out there that it's observing. Buddha is just the observing of all beings. But it's not observing all beings as separate from the observation. That's the thing, that's the thing to wake up to, is an observation which is not separate from what is being observed. So there's really nothing being observed. It's just observing, and it's the observing of all beings.

[20:35]

So like, it's not just my observing you, it's also you observing me, and everybody else observing you, and you observing everybody. There's no object like that. It's that kind of observing. It's the observing we're all doing in exactly the same way. That's the way Buddha is observing all beings, is the way all beings are observing all beings, which includes all the beings who are observing the time of day and other people, it includes all that, because those are the beings who are observing, but the way they're all doing it together and in the same way, that's the way Buddha is observing, and that's the way we are practicing right now. So, yeah. Is there another way to say that that any activity that's done wholeheartedly is practice? Say again?

[21:36]

Would it be right to say that any activity that's done wholeheartedly, even Buddha, if it's done wholeheartedly, that that is practice? Anything that's done wholeheartedly is practice? Yeah. And also, practice is wholehearted. And, we are always wholehearted, but part of us is to wholeheartedly think that we're not wholehearted. We do think that way sometimes, that we're not being wholehearted. So, I was going to give you an example of a story. So, there was this Buddhist monk who lived in China, his name is Juzhi, Juzhi, and he lived in a hut

[22:39]

on a famous mountain called Tiantai Shan, which was kind of the headquarters of the Tiantai school. And he was living on that mountain in a hut, and he was, it doesn't say he was arranging shoes, maybe he was like sitting still and quiet a lot of the time. He probably also ate food and slept and went to the toilet. He was trying to practice the Buddha way on that mountain in his hut. I'm amplifying the story. It just says he lived in a hut. And one night I think, I'm not sure if it was raining, but one night a nun came to visit him. And her name, the name of this nun is Reality.

[23:41]

That was her name. So, Reality came to visit him in the form of a female monastic. And she came into his hut, which seems kind of far out, but anyway, she came into his hut, and it was nighttime, I think. And she had her pilgrim hat on and her walking staff. And she came in and she walked around him three times. And then she stood there without taking her hat off. And I think she said something. If you can say something, I'll take my hat off to you. I think she said, if you can say something good, I'll take my hat off. How are you doing? Good? Good. So she comes in, she walks around him, which is a sign of respect to a teacher.

[24:44]

And then she stands in front of him with her hat on, which is not a sign of respect. Usually you take your hat off. She didn't take her hat off. Or maybe he said, why don't you take your hat off? Maybe he said that. Why don't you take your hat off? And she said, if you can say something good, I'll take my hat off. And he couldn't. And then so she started to leave, and it was dark, nighttime, and he was worried about her walking in the dark, so he said, why don't you stay? And she said, if you can say something good, I'll stay. And he couldn't say anything. And she left. Now that story goes on from there, but I just would bracket a comment by me at that point. He, at that point, did not, through that interaction he had with reality, he did not feel like,

[25:46]

he did not feel like he was responding very well to the situation. He couldn't say anything. He said some stuff, but he couldn't, he couldn't deliver, you know, what she was asking for. And he did not understand that the practice he was doing with reality, he was practicing with reality, right? That's the story. He was practicing with reality. He was having a conversation with reality. And it seems like, it seems like he thought, well, this is not awakening. This is not awakening, so I can't say anything, and I can't say anything, so this is not awakening. If I was awake, I could say something cool and she would stay, she would take her hat off, whatever. He seemed like he didn't understand that he was practicing with reality. That's the practice. The practice is practicing with reality. That's what the practice is. It's practicing with reality.

[26:47]

Like, what's going on? What's going on? So you say, is everything Buddha, is that what you said? Or is everything awakening? The practice with reality is what we're doing all the time. And that practice is awakening. But he didn't get it, apparently, even though he was right in the middle of the practice. And she gave him a chance. Reality gave him a chance. And she left. And then he kind of, what do you call it? Can we say bewailed? He bewailed, he lamented. I have the body of a person or the body of a man, but I don't have the spirit of a person. I should just give up this meditation practice

[27:52]

and go look for a teacher. Which is not that bad a thought. I mean... And then I think that maybe right away, I'm not sure exactly if it happened right at that moment or later that night, a spirit came to him and said, you don't have to give up your meditation practice here. A great Bodhisattva is going to come and visit you within ten days. Or within two weeks. So he stayed in the hut waiting for the teacher to come. And then I think in ten days a teacher came and the teacher's name was Celestial Dragon. That was the teacher's name. He was a Buddhist monk with that name. And he welcomed he welcomed

[28:53]

the Celestial Dragon. He welcomed the Bodhisattva. And he told the Bodhisattva of his interaction with reality where he just couldn't practice in a way that he felt was Buddha. Was awakening. I practiced but it wasn't awakening. I practiced with her but it wasn't awakening. So thanks for coming to help me. Because I want to practice. I want to be awake. He didn't say, I want to find a practice which is awakening. And then the teacher the Bodhisattva Celestial Dragon raised his finger. We don't know which one but anyway he raised his finger and pointed at Jujur. Jujur.

[29:57]

And Jujur woke up. Now what did he wake up to? He woke up to maybe his finger. Or he woke up to being Jujur. Which he always was and always will be. He always will I always am you always are. And we are always wholehearted. And the way we are wholehearted is the practice of the moment. The way you are wholehearted right now is the practice. The way you're not wholehearted is just a dream. We cannot really be wholehearted. We cannot be not completely who we are. And being who we are

[31:00]

is the practice. And the practice is awakening. And Buddha is exactly like you. Buddha is you being the way you wholeheartedly are. That is awakening. And then for the rest of his life Jujur just, whenever people asked him about enlightenment, he raised one finger. And I was looking at the characters of the story and the Chinese characters and it said that the teacher the teacher raised a finger and pointed but Jujur but then when it talked about Jujur's teaching from then on it says he just raised a finger he just raised a finger. It doesn't say he raised a finger

[32:02]

and pointed. So the teacher's finger was raised and pointed. He just raised the teacher's finger from then on. And each of us is the raising of Buddha's finger all day long. And the raising of Buddha's finger is Buddha. The raising of Buddha's finger is the raising of Buddha's finger. It's Buddha activity. And that's a story about it. A story about how the practice who you are including that you think that you can't respond to this person that the way you are really a person who feels like I can't say anything. That's how you are. But I can't believe that not being able to say anything is wholehearted. Well you are wholeheartedly unable to say anything.

[33:03]

You're not sort of not saying something. He didn't say anything. And she left. She wholeheartedly left. Reality is practicing with us. While we don't think reality is practicing with us, reality is practicing with us in the form of us interacting with all beings with the thought, I'm not practicing wholeheartedly. Or I'm practicing wholeheartedly but it's not enlightenment. We wholeheartedly think this is not enlightenment. Is this thought that it's not enlightenment? Is that enlightenment? No. Is it thought this is enlightenment? Is that enlightenment? No. The practice in the form of this thought that is enlightenment. And that practice is what we're doing together with all beings. What I'm thinking, what I'm saying, what I'm gesturing is the practice. My gestures

[34:05]

aren't enlightenment. My gestures as practice are enlightenment. And there can be no other enlightenment than this practice. And that's hard to understand so every day we have to tell new stories about this very simple teaching that this practice, we are practicing, we are practicing and this is enlightenment. It's not like we're not practicing and not practicing is enlightenment or we're practicing, not practicing. That could work too. Yes, Jean? What good is practice if the ranger of the shoes is throwing them at people? What good is throwing shoes at people? What good is practice if the ranger of shoes is throwing them at people? Well, so I changed it to what's good about

[35:05]

throwing shoes at people? If you throw shoes at people as the practice of the Buddha way, it's not like you throw people, shoes at people as the practice of the Buddha way and then later you realize the Buddha way. You use throwing shoes at people as the practice of the Buddha way. And I wouldn't even say it's good, you don't need to say it's good about it, it's just that there's no other enlightenment than you practicing throwing shoes at people at that time. I understand. I understand the inseparability of the practice. What I don't understand is if it causes harm. The practice doesn't cause harm. The shoes hitting the person might cause harm. But the shoes hitting a person

[36:05]

isn't the practice. Enlightenment. Enlightenment doesn't hurt people. It liberates them. It brings them peace. Well, yeah, throwing shoes could as the practice. If you're throwing shoes as the practice, not to mention if the Buddha said I have a practice for you called throwing shoes and then you take the shoe and throw it. The enlightenment cannot be other than you throwing that shoe. And then you say, what about if the shoe hurts people? I would say, well, it's too bad that the shoe hurt people. We have some work to do here. Go and take care of the person

[37:05]

who got hurt by the shoe, if they did. And guess what we have available to us is a practice of enlightenment to help the people who are hurt by the shoe. If you have practice, which is enlightenment, you can take care of situations where people are getting hurt by shoes, which we have plenty of those situations, right? We have plenty of situations where people are getting hurt by shoes. It's going on right now, right? So we're talking about the practice of not throwing shoes at people, we're talking about practicing with a situation where shoes are being thrown. So that we can... So we have enlightenment available to help the situation of people of people, you know, having shoes thrown at them or getting hit by shoes that have been thrown. We've got

[38:07]

this situation. Like I just thought of my granddaughter who she likes to roughhouse with me. Whether she's got her shoes on or not, she would like to throw them at me. And, you know, whether she's got shoes on or not, she likes to kick me. So I have to deal with this. Things being thrown at me. She throws stuff at me. She throws pillows at me. She doesn't... She does throw pillows and she throws quite a... Like she was throwing balls at me the other night. And also she likes to kick me. She likes to throw her feet at me. That's the situation I live in. And I can get hurt. I can get hurt by these feet. So I've got to be careful and say, you know, don't kick me there. And she respects. But she cannot somehow...

[39:09]

I cannot get to a point where there's no kicking. I just cannot somehow close down and prohibit all kicking. I just can't bring myself to do that with her. You're frowning, Patty. You're puzzled. What are you puzzled about? What are you puzzled about? It's play, did you say? Yeah, I'm playing with her, right? But I... Yes, go ahead. I'm playing with my granddaughter. She wants to play with me, yes? She's been sick for several days. She's sick. She was trying to get a bath. She threw herself on the floor and started screaming. And I just

[40:10]

picked her feet up and started grabbing her. She started laughing. And then I... stopped. So, I practice with shoes being thrown and kicked and I practice with that. And the enlightenment is none other than the way I practice with these shoes flying around the world, potentially hurting people or actually hurting people. We have that situation. We're working with all this dynamic change of the universe that's already going on. The throwing the shoe is not enlightenment. The practicing with the throwing the shoe is. What's the difference between throwing a shoe and the practice of throwing a shoe? Yes?

[41:11]

Well, you could recognize you're throwing the shoe in both cases. So, you can throw a shoe and recognize you're throwing a shoe. What makes it practice? What makes it conversation? Yes? Coming at us or... we're in conversation or we're in sync is enlightenment? It's the practice to the unspoken concern or intention. The heart of your... The enlightenment is the pivoting.

[42:13]

Yes? We even say the pivotal activity of enlightenment. But the practice is also the pivoting. So... Well, you could have clarifying the intention and the way clarifying the intention is pivoting with something. What's clarifying the intention pivoting with? It's not just clarifying the intention all by itself. It's clarifying the intention which is in a pivotal relationship. It's the pivoting clarifying. You could also be obscuring your intention. No, the pivot's not obscuring or clarifying. The clarifying is pivoting and the obscuring. Everything's pivoting. And the way everything's pivoting is the practice. Is your practice the hook that is pivoting on? The practice is the pivoting.

[43:15]

The practice is the pivoting of whatever we're working with. Whatever you are right now you're actually in a conversation with reality. We cannot get outside our conversation with reality. There's a pivotal relationship going on. Where does non-attachment come in? Non-attachment would be if you excuse the expression handy if you were pivoting. Non-attachment goes with the practice. And of course non-attachment goes with awakening. But non-attachment doesn't mean you don't have hands and you don't use them. It just means you use them and as you use them you also don't use them. You're using your hands and you're not using your hands or pivoting.

[44:17]

That's the practice. That's enlightenment. And everything offers the opportunity of pivoting with not everything or not itself. Isn't the practice not moving? Not moving also goes very nicely with pivoting. Being still goes very nicely with pivoting. Being still goes very nicely with the practice. Being still goes very nicely with awakening. Because part of in order to practice you have to be where you are. So it's not just that everything's enlightenment but everything being itself pivots with not itself. And that is awakening

[45:20]

and that addresses the problems of this world which come from people not taking their seat, not being wholehearted or denying their seat, denying their wholeheartedness. Avoiding where they are even though that's where they are, is avoiding where they are. Yes? Given what I'm thinking about when you said pivot, I'm thinking going from rejecting an experience to accepting it or welcoming it. But then I wonder if there's attachment in that or if that is... Well, that's another thing. So one is wondering if there's attachment. That's... You can be a person like that sometimes. So I'm a person who's wondering if I'm attached. Okay? And so

[46:20]

wondering if I'm attached, if I'm wholeheartedly wondering if I'm attached, then I'm open to wondering if I'm not attached. And I'm open to not being attached to wondering if I'm attached. And I'm open to being where I am. All these things are kind of like practices. All these things are non-attachment. All these things are awakening when they are practiced. Yes? No? You're done? Okay. If you have an unwholesome seed or an unwholesome action, okay? We have these things appearing called unwholesome actions.

[47:21]

Okay? The Buddha activity is the way the unwholesome is pivoting with the wholesome. The Buddha activity is not rejecting the unwholesome. The Buddha activity is observing the unwholesome in such a way that also the Buddha activity observes that the unwholesome is pivoting with wholesome. And the way of being with the unwholesome, which liberates beings from the unwholesome, is to be wholeheartedly with the unwholesome. And then being wholeheartedly with the unwholesome, we realize that the unwholesome is not unwholesome. And there's the pivotal activity. Without getting rid of the unwholesome, we realize the pivotal activity of the Buddhas. And beings are liberated

[48:25]

in the middle of wholesome, unwholesome. I'm sorry, unwholesome, not unwholesome, or unwholesome, wholesome. So all day long we have wholesome, unwholesome, wholesome, unwholesome. All day long, wholesome, unwholesome. All day long we have good and evil. All day long we have right and wrong. That's our daily life. That's going on all the time. These two are pivoting with each other. Too much, too little. Careful, uncareful. This is going on all the time. The practice is working with that. And there's not another enlightenment than that one. Than that working with and practicing with. You name it. Whatever you name, it's not that that's the practice. It's the pivotal activity of that with reality. That's the practice. And that's going on all the time. So we arrange shoes and maybe ... It didn't say in the story that she started arranging the shoes, but the way she started

[49:25]

to do it is she was throwing shoes around for a few minutes or a few hours and the Buddha came out and said, that's not what I meant by arranging the shoes. I didn't mean juggle the shoes. I didn't mean throw the shoes. I meant like this. So then the Buddha maybe shows the person what the Buddha meant by arrange the shoes. And then maybe the person goes along with that or maybe they don't. The Buddha is not trying to get this person in control and to do the shoes in a certain way. But the Buddha might show a certain way to help this person realize the practice. So the person is throwing the shoes all over the place. The Buddha comes and does some ... I don't know what with it. But also there are stories where the person puts all the shoes together with what are usually considered their mate, rather than mixing them up. Let's say the person puts all the shoes with their correct mate and lines them up all pointing east. You know? Let's say they do that. And then there are stories of where the Buddha comes in

[50:27]

and messes the whole shoe arrangement up and then says arrange them again. You know those stories? Yeah. It's not like the Buddha is trying to destroy the arrangement. The Buddha is trying to help the person find the practice. But before the Buddha messes up the arrangements that the person did, what the person was really doing was the practice. And the enlightenment was not other than the way they lined up all the shoes facing east. With the toes facing east and the heels facing west. That's the way the person decided the Buddha wanted the shoes arranged. Or somebody say, the Buddha wanted the shoes arranged with the toe of one lined up with the heel of the other. That would be perfectly fine. In that situation, the practice, the practice is enlightenment. What's the practice? Well, asking what the practice is

[51:29]

is a normal, very common part of the practice. You don't have to always be asking it, but the practice is open to the question of what is the practice. And the question what is practice is a common question when we're practicing. It's a common question when we're Buddha. Buddha is pretty much non-stop saying what is the practice. And also, although I'm not necessarily going to say what the practice is, I will say that the practice which I'm wondering about, the practice which I'm wondering about is awakening. That's the practice I'm interested in. So I'm arranging the shoes, I'm wondering what the practice is. I'm arranging the shoes, I'm wondering what the practice is with the faith that the wondering what the practice is

[52:29]

part of the practice and it's not other than enlightenment. And the enlightenment that I'm concerned with cannot be other than negotiating with grandchildren, practicing with grandchildren, trying to tell them how I feel about what they're doing, you know, keeping in mind what the grandchild's mother suggested we do the time of going to bed, you know. Things did not go according to plan. It was, you know, this is just like Thursday night, I took care of her. We had this plan and her mother told the plan and then she said, now Frankie, you say the plan back

[53:30]

and she said it back but she fooled around with it and then she said it back and as soon as her mother left she didn't follow the plan. And I had to deal with this person who was not following the plan which we recited when her mother was still there. She's a very smart person, she knows how to ... If I recited it wrong, she would ... She can recite it, she can catch me at reciting it at the slightest variation of what was agreed upon and then she's got it all set and then ... and then ... and then we have this new world with grandchildren throwing shoes and other objects at granddaddy. And I have to practice, not have to, and I get the opportunity to practice with this situation. And if you were there, you would have got the chance too.

[54:33]

And I don't know what you would have done if you were there to assist me. But we would have been practicing and the way we were practicing there's no other enlightenment than that. And if we are at Noah's boat today, this morning you sat in this room for quite a while and then you got up and walked and sat down again. Some other people went into another room and sat and came to talk to me. We were practicing here this morning. The enlightenment is nothing other than what we did here this morning and what we're doing in the first part of the afternoon. There's no other enlightenment in our practice. We do not ever have to throw any shoes again. If that doesn't happen, it's okay. We don't need to throw shoes. But if we do throw shoes, we do need practice if we want enlightenment and we need enlightenment if we want practice.

[55:35]

Yes? Um, no matter the practice of enlightenment, it is possible that, you know, one could assume that he or she is enlightened and um, and assuming a certain spiritual thing is not true. So, did you say, is that possible? The answer is yes. Pretty much any... Anyway, he said, is it possible to assume X? And then he said X, Y, and Z. He said some things. He said, is it possible to assume that? And I said, yes, it is possible to assume it. And then he also said, is it possible to get in trouble based on those assumptions? Yes.

[56:47]

You don't... That's the normal situation. Huh? That's the normal situation. People think, people assume this and that and get in trouble and hurt people. That's the normal situation. Like, again, granddaughters assume various things that they can do and then they get in trouble together and their grandfather gets in trouble with them. This is our situation. Now, what about non-attachment to our assumptions? That's a practice. And non-attachment to your assumptions is enlightenment. But not getting rid of the assumptions or going someplace where nobody's got any. It's being with people who actually who are holding on... It's hanging out with some people who are holding on to their assumptions and hurting people. These are the people...

[58:03]

These are some of the people we have the opportunity to practice with. We can also practice with people who have assumptions who aren't holding on to them. They also are available for practice. We're practicing with those who are attached to what they think is going on and those who aren't. We're all practicing together. And the ones who aren't are practicing with the ones who are. And the ones who are are practicing with the ones who aren't. We're all doing this together. And there's no assumptions which I think have ever been eliminated from the planet. They're all more challenges dash opportunities for practice. Yes? No! However, you can practice with not-respect. So we've got plenty of not-respect.

[59:06]

And we can practice with not-respect. But the way you practice with not-respect is with respect. Practice is respecting. And respecting means you don't attach. Practice is respecting. Which means you're with what's going on. Practice is respecting reality. But respecting reality also is respecting that you have assumptions about reality. But assumptions about reality aren't really... I mean, to actually assume something about reality and think that that's so is not being respectful. Reality is free of our assumptions. And it also does not push our assumptions around. Reality is the reality of our assumptions. It's not our assumptions. But if we have assumptions and being respectful of them, that's practice. That's enlightenment. Enlightenment is to be compassionate and non-attached and respectful

[60:07]

to every assumption and not abide in any of them. But be loving and caring for all assumptions including the assumption this person is not worthy of respect. I've been practicing respect but there's a few people who do not deserve it. I assume this person is this way and according to that they don't deserve respect. That can be practiced with but that's not the practice. The practice is complete respect in a world where there's plenty of disrespect. Yes? I notice that sometimes in stories those are both stories in the same tradition and challenged or pushed. Yeah. And is it the same

[61:10]

one thing as that that I'm employing or just following? Okay, so I followed you when you said that you run into stories where you feel challenged and then you said Is the story you told the same one thing as that who when a student or a young boy copied his one finger he cut it off? Yeah, well he's now bringing up another story, okay. I would say that in that story I told the monk who was visited by the nun was having it looked like he was having trouble respecting himself. He was having trouble practicing with his response to reality.

[62:10]

He seemed to be fairly respectful of reality however, in a way I think maybe he had assumptions about reality and didn't know how to respect them. If he knew how to respect this lady with the hat not taking her hat off if he knew how to really respect that I think he would have been able to say something and they would have had a nice time together. But they did have a nice time together but he didn't think it was a nice time. He couldn't see that he was with the program. She seemed to be doing, reality seemed to be doing fine. She's like working her thing quite nicely. She told him if you talk I'm staying, if you don't I'm out of here. And then she gave him a second chance. He was having trouble respecting the situation. Okay. Now he gets some help. Another important person comes to visit him. This time however he's able to respect the situation.

[63:13]

Himself the teacher you know I think he was ready to respect. He was ready to practice. And because he could practice with the teacher going one finger up, one finger to you he could practice being who he was, he could respect who he was and he could realize that practicing who he was that I should say he could realize that practicing who he was and respecting who he was is awakening. So they say he was awakened but really he was practicing. Finally he was practicing which was his awakening. Then later a boy imitates him by raising the finger. Somebody asked the boy what's the teacher's teaching and the boy raised the finger and then he called the boy in and said did you teach people that? Or what do I teach? And the boy raised his finger and supposedly he cut the boy's finger off. The difficult thing is

[64:19]

did he respect the boy? Was what he did with the boy practice? Was what he did with the boy enlightenment? Is cutting a boy's finger off? Is that practice? Is that enlightenment? That's a big question for you and me. But I'm wondering about that too. I'm not saying it was or wasn't. Or if I did say it was or wasn't I wouldn't want to abide in that because practice doesn't abide in my opinions. I'm throwing opinions out. I'm casting opinions upon you. But do I want to believe my opinions? Do I want to abide in them? Do I want to abide in my assumptions? Do I? No, I don't. I do not want to. Do I sometimes?

[65:21]

Yes, I do. Am I sorry when I do? Yes, I am. Almost always. Is being sorry when you abide in your opinions practice? Yes, it is. That's another opinion. But yes, that's my opinion. Yes? Yes, you may. My opinion is you can. What if the boy has gangrene? So do you retract your statement? It's non-medical. These are the Zen doctors. They're trying to free people. So Jeff agrees with you. They're trying to free people from delusions. It seems to me that in the medical establishment of that time he could have bled out. He could have, but that's not the story.

[66:27]

The story is that the boy did not bleed to death and the boy was awakened. The boy was initiated into great awakening. That's the story. He became a Zen master. And it's perfectly all right for you to say I think that was wrong. We're ready for you to say that. You can say that was really bad. I respect you for saying that. That's my practice. Not respecting you for saying there's no situation in which you can cut a boy's finger off. My practice is not to disrespect that statement. However, I did ask you a question and you changed your story to non-medical. And so sometimes the doctor thinks it's good to cut the finger off. Sometimes the sufferer thinks it's time to cut the finger off. Like that guy who was trapped.

[67:29]

His arm stuck. He was out in the wilderness. His arm stuck. He cut his arm off to get up to survive. Sometimes cutting things off body parts off could possibly be beneficial. But I'm not saying it's always a good idea to sever limbs. But I'm open to the possibility that sometimes it might be really helpful. And helpful in terms of the medicine of freeing somebody from their delusion. And that story, the monk was awakened. The young monk was awakened. It was that story. It wasn't that he bled to death. But even to you could also say I don't think it's ever justified to hurt anybody in the slightest degree.

[68:32]

Of course not. It's never good to hurt beings. It's never good to hurt any living being. It's always good to respect living beings. They're precious. They deserve our respect. And respecting living beings is the practice. Now, is it possible, if you really respect living beings, is it possible that you would cut a limb? I would say it's possible. Is it ever justified? Does the Buddha ever recommend hurting anybody? No. The practice never is to hurt people. It's always to protect them and benefit them. That's the practice. And that's enlightenment. To treat beings that way is enlightenment. Even the slightest little bit of disrespect, the Buddha does not know. No, not at all.

[69:35]

Respect. Utter respect. Was there another hand? Yes? I just wondered if the stories, if you think the stories are literal, or whether that story could mean that when he raised his finger, something severe was said or done. Generally speaking, it's good to, when you're dealing with stories, generally speaking, it's good to go through three phases. First, deal with the story literally. If you skip over the literal, you miss something you can learn from taking it literally. I've been dealing with that story about the finger on the literal level so far. We can learn things from the literal level. Then you deal with the non-literal level. That's the next layer. After we work the literal for a while, we will realize the

[70:35]

enlightenment that comes with practicing with the literal interpretation of the story. Then we can move on to practice with the non-literal. And then we can move on to practice with the literal and the non-literal. These are levels of realization. But it's good not to skip over the literal. It's good to deal with it because that's usually the one that comes up first. There could be a non-literal way of dealing with it, but let's not skip over the literal. So I would take it literally. As part of the history of the Zen school is that a teacher cut off somebody's finger. There's also the story that the first ancestor in China's student cut off his arm to demonstrate his sincerity. He didn't really cut off his arm. What did he do? He said, he

[71:37]

donated some other animal's limb. We don't know what happened, but let's take it at the literal level and then can we practice with the literal level of that story of a monk who cuts off his arm to demonstrate that he's sincere. And again, I don't necessarily recommend it, I don't like it, and I don't really dislike it, but in Asia when people change teachers sometimes they cut off a finger to demonstrate that they're not doing this lightly. They actually do that? They actually cut their finger off. And they have it worked out that they can do it without anesthetic, but they have ways of doing it. And usually they use sharp knives, but somebody might say if you use a dull knife it'll be even more sincere. But I'm not recommending you cut the fingers off, I'm just saying that people do that as a way to demonstrate that they're

[72:38]

sincere about changing from one teacher to another. Other people cut off a finger as a way of apologizing. In early phases of European history, if you make a vow and you didn't follow it, then the consequence of not following the vow would be amputation of a finger, a thumb, a hand, a forearm. Not death, necessarily, but there would be a consequence of breaking an oath, which often involved severing a limb. But that's also still part of, you know, in Buddhism we make bodhisattva vows and there's a consequence of not following them. And the consequence is that the people you respect, you go and you tell them that you did it. That's a consequence. And, you know, it's pretty intense to go tell somebody that you broke your vow.

[73:39]

But that's recommended as part of the consequence and you say, well, that's more refined than cutting off a limb when you break your vows. Yeah, but it's, you know, I kind of do like that way better of going to talk to the teacher rather than cut off a limb. I like that way. So, I prefer it even, you might say. But I also don't want to disrespect people who cut off limbs to... I think disrespecting is harmful. I think respecting is not harmful. I think disrespecting is practice. Actually, I think respecting is practice. And I think respecting is enlightenment. That they're the same. And... Karen and...

[74:42]

Sonia and... Huh? And Homa. Homa? Yes, go ahead. I'm feeling confused. Do you respect that confusion? Actuality, no. You don't respect it? If you ask me, in my deepest place, no. Thank you very much for telling us... I appreciate you telling us that you don't respect your confusion. Yes, I don't respect confusion. Do you respect that you don't respect it? Yeah, I can respect that I don't respect it. Okay, now there's the practice. That's enlightenment. There's enlightenment, Homa, that you respect that you don't respect it. Okay.

[75:45]

What else is there? That is clarity. When you respect your disrespect, when you respect that, that's clarity. And again, you may not accept that. You may not say, no, I can't respect that as... I can't respect that that much. So I respect that I don't respect, but I also want clarity. And I'm saying to you that clarity is respecting your disrespect. If you don't have clarity, you're not yet really respecting. Respecting means that you look at what you're respecting. And what I'm saying is, I don't respect my confusion? Okay, we can work with that. I got confusion? Yeah. I don't respect it? Yeah. Okay, do you respect that you don't respect it? Yes. Yes, I do. That's clarity. And that's enlightenment.

[76:47]

It's that you notice what you don't respect, and you respect that. I... I do not respect putting so much on what we call enlightenment. You do not respect putting so... I do not respect all these... Okay, I got it. You don't respect that. Also, do you not respect putting too little on enlightenment? So you don't respect putting too much on. Yes. I respect also not putting too little. Yeah. So you don't respect that. I hear you. Can I move on now? Is that okay? You said something important, now I'd like to move on with that. May I? I think you've said enough, myself. I think you've said enough,

[77:49]

Homa. You said you don't respect putting too much on enlightenment. Enlightenment doesn't put too much on enlightenment. So it's not good to put too much on enlightenment. That's not good. And it's also not good to put too little on enlightenment. That's not good. But enlightenment respects putting too much on enlightenment. And enlightenment respects putting too little on it. So, I do not think it's good to put too much on it, or to talk about it too much, or to talk about it too little. I agree, it's not good to overdo or underdo. But I aspire to respect overdoing and underdoing, and the respect is not overdoing or underdoing. It's in the middle. It's the middle way. And if anybody ever did the right amount of whatever

[78:51]

with enlightenment, not putting too much and too little on it, I would want to respect that too. And respecting the right amount of emphasis, and respecting over-emphasizing or under-emphasizing, those are all practice. That's what practice is like. It's like respecting everything. Each thing and everything. That's what enlightenment does. And that's practice. Karen? It's kind of related. You said a while ago you were recommending against abiding in assumptions. I don't know if I said I recommend. I don't use the word recommend very often, but anyway, maybe I did. I aspire to not abide in assumptions. I personally aspire to that. Like, for example, I have assumptions about all of you. Sorry. Like, I assume you're a male. I assume you're a female. I mean, I admit it.

[79:51]

But there's another assumption of a female, a female, a female, a male. I do. These assumptions come up. You may be in a disguise, but in lieu of finding that out, I assume. I aspire to not abide in my assumptions about people. I have assumptions about me, too. I aspire to not abide in them. I don't recommend not abiding, because I don't want to recommend to you reality. In reality, you don't abide in anything. You don't abide in your assumptions. What I do is I tell you, I tell you, I aspire to not abide in my assumptions, which means I aspire to reality. Okay? If I, you mean if I,

[80:58]

if I'm abiding, if I'm abiding in my assumptions, and that practice is to respect, is to respect that abiding, which I aspire to give up. But by respecting my abiding in my assumptions, I will, it is in accord with the path of not abiding. If you want to be free of abiding, then respect for the abiding is the way to go. Okay? You're good now, right? Anything else before we have lunch? I mean, before we have a ceremony? Yes? Listening to all of this, what I clarification that I have for myself is that we're talking about, we're having a conversation about people who are willing monks, nuns, that are practicing. So,

[81:59]

whatever is happening, if you're practicing, we're not talking, necessarily speaking about someone who's not necessarily engaged in the Buddha way or awakening. I mean, we use them, they use us, but we keep talking about practice. Congratulations, you've said something I don't agree with. Well, what is it? It's that you talked about the people who are not engaged in the practice. Didn't you? I consider some people who are politicians now, they're doing their practice, but they're not practicing Buddha's wisdom. We are actually practicing. We? All of us, including everybody you're thinking about. Everybody's doing the practice. Jujur was doing the practice

[83:01]

with reality. That's the story. He was practicing with her, but he didn't think so. He was, it's true. He was committed to practice, and he was practicing, but he thought he wasn't. Okay? But he was committed. Now, he could have also been not committed. Could have another story. There was a monk one time who was not committed to practice, and then somebody came to visit him, and he said, well, I didn't practice with her. Okay? But he was practicing with her, even though he didn't want to, he was. Matter of fact, he was practicing more with her than the monk we have in our story who wanted to practice with her, but couldn't, according to his idea. But he was practicing with her. That was the conversation he had which set up the punchline of his meeting with the great teacher. That conversation was

[84:03]

integral to his awakening, his opinion that he couldn't practice. But in that first story, he wanted to practice. Yeah. But we could have another story. There was a monk who did not aspire to practice the Buddha way, and reality came to visit him, and he felt, yeah, I was successful. I didn't practice the Buddha way with her. She asked me to talk. I couldn't say anything. I was like a total flop. So I'm going to retire, because I'm successful at not practicing. And then the teacher comes and shows him that he was practicing. And he was. There's nobody who is not included in this practice. And if you respect everybody, you will realize everybody's on the path. We're all doing the same practice. It's not like a lot of us are doing the same practice.

[85:05]

All those who want to practice the Buddha way are practicing together with all the people who want to and aspire to. Yeah. Some people don't necessarily want to. That's right. And some people don't necessarily want to practice the Buddha way. As a matter of fact, some people don't necessarily want to, and some people pretty definitely don't want to. Like my granddaughter. She definitely does not want to practice the Buddha way with me anyway. With her mother and her friends at school, she maybe does. Because if she doesn't, she gets in big trouble fast. But with me, she cannot practice the Buddha way. She gets a break from the Buddha way. She thinks. But she can't. She cannot get a break from practicing with reality. I'm practicing together with her who does not want to practice the Buddha way and her who does want to practice the Buddha way. I'm practicing with those

[86:06]

who do not want to and those who do want to. That's what I'm doing, and I'm suggesting to you that you're practicing with all those people too. All those people who don't want to practice with you, you're practicing with them. And if you respect everybody, you'll realize I'm practicing together with all the people I don't respect. No. All the people who do not respect me and do not respect my path, I'm practicing respect to them. That's the practice. So, not everybody is practicing respect so they don't realize that they're practicing together with all of us. Yes? So, there's a difference between respect and accept. For example, I might not accept that it's okay to cut your limb off to show that you are true to your vow that you broke the vow, whatever it is.

[87:09]

I may not agree with it or accept it as an okay way of doing it, but if I acknowledge that that is actually truly how you But also, go back to your not accepting my activity. You could respect you're not accepting. Right. But if I acknowledge that the reality is that people do do that, then I'm practicing the reality. Yeah, but not just acknowledge, but respect it. Respect that people do harm to each other. And you don't agree with the harm. You don't want the harm. Buddha doesn't agree with the harm. Buddha says this is not good. Stop that. Stop harming beings. Buddha says don't harm. Do not harm, do not harm. Buddha says it over and over. And does Buddha respect the harmers? I say yes.

[88:10]

Buddha respects the people who are doing harm and the Buddha says to the people who are doing harm, you're not my student when you do harm. My students don't do harm. If you want to be my student, give up harm. However, if you slip back into harm, it's not like I'm going to stop loving you and respecting you. I'm just going to say to you again, did you want to be my student? Yes, well then don't harm anything. So I don't agree with any harm and that's why my granddaughter can push me around so much because I don't want to harm our relationship by being too forceful about, you know, now is time to take a shower. Now it's time to do this. I don't want to do this. So I don't want to harm our relationship and she knows that and we're working it out and her mother doesn't want to harm it either but they have a different thing. She doesn't pull

[89:14]

some of the stuff with her mother that she pulls with me. So that's my problem is I don't want to harm her but if I do want to respect her and that's part of what she can feel and that's she kind of abuses that gift. She says, he respects me so much I can do almost anything and then I say, no, that's too much and she doesn't respect me saying that and I respect her not saying it and it's really intense but it's where the practice is definitely intended to not harm any being and then to benefit beings but it means respecting beings who are being harmful and there's plenty of that and it's easy to disrespect people when they're being harmful easy to disrespect them and it's possible to respect harm even while you're working

[90:16]

to protect beings from it and help people give it up and when people are being harmful and they feel a huge dose of respect they often drop their harmful behavior in the face of that love the love melts the harming tendencies the respect disarms the harming energy and we want to disarm the harming energy but by respect rather than suppression, because suppression just flares up again when it's disrespected, oh yeah, you think you can stop me from being harmful? Okay I'm going to be a good boy now and then they let up and try to stop me and for hurting myself I'm going to really hurt myself in a way that you can't stop me no, we want to respect protect it's wonderful but again

[91:19]

if you respect you have to give up control of beings and then they go wild sometimes when you give up trying to control them it can happen yes, Jeff? well, that whole thing makes perfect sense to me one of my earlier relations to a teacher I think I would have helped but it doesn't really compute that Donald Trump or Vladimir Putin or people who just do harm on an even lesser level killing one person by yeah I am suggesting that if I wish for positive change in people who are being unskillful or just plain cruel if I want to help people who are being

[92:21]

cruel and disrespectful to evolve into respectful kind beings I have to teach them how to do it well, I would start I start by looking at myself and I might find when I see these things I might find disrespect coming up and they already feel disrespected that's why they act the way they do because there is so much they just want to be respected that they do these strange things to get respect so I would like if I don't respect them I work on myself so that I can transmit the respect if they get enough respect they will change and stop doing the things to try to get it when they feel it when you feel it you stop trying to get it not right away but the more you feel respect the more you stop trying to get it and the more you start to give it the more you receive respect the more you give respect

[93:22]

and some of the people we're talking about we see them having trouble being respectful because they feel unrespected and they have a big deficit in feeling respected so we need to give them more respect in order to wake up respect in them and right now I'm having trouble being respectful here with myself so I have my work to do so if I ever by any chance met them or their friends I would be like ready to respect them and they're surprised here comes a Buddhist monk and he's probably not going to respect me because they're into non-violence or whatever and I'm a murderer or whatever but suddenly they feel respect wow and that disarms but not necessarily the first time like the story in Being Upright about the head of the clan who was very violent and hateful but these Jewish people converted him

[94:24]

they just kept giving him love and love and love and he couldn't resist it and he got transformed from a hating clan leader you know into a person who apologized for all the harm he had done that's what I'm betting on is that respect can be taught and practice can be taught and it can be taught by starting applying it to myself and then to others if I notice disrespect in myself to practice respect towards my disrespect and then turn it towards my granddaughter's disrespect of me she's kind of disrespectful of me and I say to her and her mother says to her but it's hard for me to even remember to say this to her it's so dynamic sweetheart you need to respect your grandfather and then she says

[95:25]

oh yeah I need you to listen to me I need you to respect me it's so exciting and dynamic it's hard even to remember the right statements but I hang in there and it's wonderful it's so wonderful she's such a good girl and she's like she's trying to learn how to be fully alive and listen to me and respect me but she also wants to do all kinds of amazing things which are not necessarily respectful and I have the chance to teach her and it's really hard and I love to do it and it's really hard it's really hard and that's why her parents invite me over to take care of her because they really appreciate a break from this dynamo who's trying to learn how to respect but also is trying to like do all these amazing activities like kick and throw it's just wonderful it's so challenging

[96:25]

Aikido Master I would like her I have to be Aikido Master in order to teach her and it's really hard to be an Aikido Master with her but that's what I aspire to and she does too but not yet now she wants to push she wants to attack horsey, horsey get down, get down I even forget to say say please to the horse so I get down and she jumps on me and it feels good actually she jumps from a distance onto my back it feels good, it's actually fun and then she gets too rough that's too rough, you know that's too rough more gentle but it's gentle in a very dynamic, energetic situation which is hard to learn how to be forceful and strong and gentle and sometimes she gets it like she jumps on me and it's just right you know, it's got energy but it doesn't hurt me

[97:28]

and then she goes she also was taking these little hand weights and dropping them on my head you know, like two pounders or whatever I said, not so hard you know, she kept doing it too hard that's too hard but she wanted to drop those things not from up high you know I don't say no, just I don't call the game off I try to find a way that she can drop the hand weights on my head just the right amount so it's like there's contact but it doesn't hurt and I'm trying to teach her that but she definitely wants to drop the weights on my head she's not so interested maybe in dropping in a way that works for me but I would like her to learn to do it in a way that works for me rather than just say never drop those weights on my head we're not playing that game anymore I'm willing to play it I would like her to learn how to take that weight and set it on my head

[98:28]

in a way that doesn't hurt it is possible I'd like her to learn that and also next time I do that she does it, I'm going to say do you want to learn that do you want to learn how to put the weight on my head in a way that doesn't hurt me and if she says no I don't want to I say well let's not play that game anymore until you do want to learn that but you know the thing is she keeps coming up with new games so it's hard for me it's hard for me to learn how to tell her what I want to do right away she's eight she's eight and anyways it's so wonderful and so challenging and yeah should I tell you that this is is this R-rated anyway this is I'm telling you about my life I have this very intense relationship

[99:30]

with this girl and she tries stuff with me that she can't try with anyone else and you know it's kind of fun for me and also challenging and I give her mother reports and so on and yeah but you know I do teach and I also told you the story about other grandchildren who are older who used to put their hands in my mouth I told you that story right you know and I I like them to put their hands in my mouth if they want to but then I also tell them to wash their hands you know so I'm interested to do these things with them and I'm also interested to learn how to tell them my limits my boundaries and help them find a way to work with them because they know that I'm a person that they can push on the boundaries a little bit with I'm willing to go to those places and try to find a way to respect

[100:31]

them and in the same way respect my needs and you know I'm doing that and I do the same with adults anyway this is the longest talk that we've had here I think this is the first time it's been two hours

[100:49]

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