Good morning, everyone, and welcome. This weekend, I've been talking about case eight in the Book of Serenity by Jeans Fox. So there are so many aspects of this story that touch on our practice in all kinds of ways. So I'll review a little bit of what I've been saying the last couple days and hopefully say a little bit more. So I'll just start with the case as as written by Hongzhe, who wrote the cases and verses for the Book of Serenity. So I'll just start with that. When Baizhang lectured in the hall, there was always an old man who listened to the teaching and then dispersed with the crowd.

[01:01]

One day he didn't leave. Baishan then asked him, who is it standing there? The old man said, in antiquity, in the time of the ancient Buddha Kashapa, I lived on this mountain. A student asked, does a greatly cultivated man still fall into cause and effect or not? I answered him, he does not fall into cause and effect. And I fell into a wild fox body for 500 lifetimes because of that. Now I ask the teacher to turn a word in my behalf." Ba Xiong said, he is not blind to cause and effect or he does not ignore cause and effect. The old man was greatly enlightened at these words. So that's the story as described by Hongzhe, articulated by Hongzhe. There's another part to the story, which I'll get to. But this is a really important story for us.

[02:06]

It was a key story for Dogen. And I'll talk about that more, but this story was maybe the one place in Dogen's teaching career where he really changed his view about something. And there's so many aspects to this story. Well, maybe I will read the, it also appears as case number two after the Mu Koan about the dog in the Wu Men Guan, or Mu Man Kon, or Gateless Barrier. There's a dog, and a fox, and a cat, and anyway, all kinds of animals. But after the part that that is in the book of Serenity, the old man was greatly enlightened at these words. And then,

[03:07]

the longer version, which appears in later transmission of the Lamb Texts. The old man was greatly enlightened at these words. Bowing, he said, I have shed the wild fox body, which remains on the other side of the mountain. I'm taking the liberty of telling you and asking you to perform amongst funeral. So the master had one of the group hit the sounding board, the han, which Jane hit earlier, and announced to the community that they would send off a dead monk after mealtime. the community debated about this and wondered how it could be since everyone in the assembly was fine and there had been no one in the infirmary. After the meal, the master led the group to a cave on the other side of the mountain where he fished out a dead fox with his staff and then he cremated it and did a monk's funeral. So that's the second part of the longer story.

[04:10]

And part of this is that Bai Zhang, historically, is considered in Chan to have been, or Zen, to have written the first monastic guidelines. So he was somebody who really represented the forms and to do a monk's funeral for a fox was scandalous. So we talked a lot about foxes in the last couple of days. And there are people here who really like foxes, and I do too. But foxes in Western lore are tricksters maybe, but they're also kind of benevolent. And for the most part in East Asian cultural context, foxes are rather malevolent. They really do harmful things. So to do a monk's funeral, which is a very high ceremony for a fox. It was really scandalous. The next part of the story, though, that evening, the master went up in the hall and recounted the foregoing events.

[05:12]

In other words, the dialogue with this old man that led him to cremate a fox. And one of his students, Wang Bo, who later became the teacher of Linji or Rinzai, Wang Bo asked, an ancient who gave a mistaken answer fell into the state of a wild fox for 500 lifetimes. What becomes of one who never makes a mistake? Baizhang said, come here and I'll tell you. And Huang Po approached and gave the master a slap. The master clapped and said, I thought foreigners' beards were red. Here is even a red-bearded foreigner. So this is a reference to Bodhidharma, who is sometimes described as having a red beard and having been from Persia, the Indian master who brought Chan to China. And also, it references the fox, and we know about red foxes. OK, so that's the longer version of the story, which I may come back to a little bit.

[06:15]

But I want to actually today focus more on the text of the Book of Serenity, which is to say, focus on Wan Zong's commentary a little bit more than I have the last two days. But the basic issue here, OK, is cause and effect. What's the situation of cause and effect? Does a greatly cultivated person still fall into cause and effect, into conditions or not? And this ancient master on that mountain, when he says he lived on the mountain, that means he was Baizhang in a previous age. And the Buddha before Shakyamuni, Kashyapa Buddha, he said, No, a greatly cultivated person does not fall into cause and effect and then became a fox for 500 lifetimes. Bai Zhang said, he's not blind to cause and effect.

[07:19]

So there's two sides here. We can see two sides here. not falling into, not caught up in conditions. This refers to the unconditioned ultimate state of awareness. And then there's not ignoring, not being blind to cause and effect, to the phenomenal world, to the issues in the phenomenal world. And these two sides are very important. And Baizhang also is famous for, there's a story where he, his students try to prevent him from working and he just goes into his cabin and won't eat. And eventually says, a day without work is a day without food. So he upheld the side of taking care of the phenomenal world. This is what not ignoring cause and effect is about.

[08:21]

So, Again, so much to say about this. And just as a footnote, I'll mention what I talked about more extensively yesterday. It seems that in the Japanese Rinzai school, this greatly cultivated person in the question, they read it as, does an enlightened man, does an enlightened person still fall into cause and effect? That's not what the Chinese says. It says greatly cultivated person. But I mentioned some of the translations of the Gateless Barrier that I looked at, Aitken Roshi and Shibayama Roshi and Kumyamata Koan and Sekida all say an enlightened person. And, but it's clear that it's a greatly cultivated person. The more scholarly translations of the Mumonkan by Stephen Hine and Tom Cleary say greatly cultivated. And again, I talked about this extensively yesterday, how

[09:29]

For Americans then, this idea of enlightened persons has been a huge problem because people think they're above cause and effect. And we've had all sorts of transgressions and abuses because somebody thought that there was such a thing as enlightenment and it was something that they could get. So then they would be above cause and effect. But the original story just says, does a greatly cultivated person still fall into cause and effect or not? So, I will read Hongzhe's verse first. I'm not gonna say much about it, but just to read that. A foot of water, a fathom of wave, for 500 lives he could not do a thing, being a fox. Not falling, not blind, they haggle, as before, entering a nest of complications. So, well, I will comment as I go.

[10:33]

Hong Xie here is taking what was the predominant Chinese Chan and early Zen side of talking about the non-duality of not falling into cause and effect and not ignoring cause and effect. He's saying, well, there's a nest of complications disputing these. Then he just says, ah, ha, ha, understand? If you are clear and free, there's no objection to my babble. The spirit songs and shrine dances spontaneously form a harmony. Clapping in the interval, singing la-di-da. So spirit songs and shrine dances are relevant because there's a whole aspect of the story that has to do with spirits and possession. And in effect, what Baizhang is doing here is an exorcism. He's exorcising this older, previous Baizhang from being possessed by this fox body. So we can see it that way, and there's all kinds of implications about spirits and supernatural things that, and in fact are discussed.

[11:43]

Stephen Hine did a whole book on this koan called Shifting Shape, Shaping Text, Philosophy and Folklore in the Fox Koan, which is very interesting and referred to. But I want to focus today just on this issue of the haggling between, no, a greatly cultivated person doesn't fall into cause and effect. And Baizhang saying, no, they don't ignore it, they're not blind to it. So the importance of cause and effect, and I'll talk about this more in terms of Dogen's strong position about it, and the importance for us of precepts that is related to this story. But I want to go back and look at Wansong's commentary on the case to say a little bit about that. His introduction to the case. So like in the Blue Cliff Record koan collection, there's a case and a verse chosen by one teacher, in this case Hongzhe.

[12:51]

And then there's a commentary, an introduction, comments on the case, comments on the verse, and little comments on each line of the case and verse. In this case, in this collection, this was done by a great teacher named Wansong, whose student was the ancestor of the martial arts lineage at Shaolin Temple. Anyway, Wansong is an interesting character. I want to look at some of what he says. His introduction to the whole story says, if you keep so much as the letter A in your mind, the letter A, you'll go to hell like an arrow shot. One drop of wild fox slobber when swallowed cannot be spit out for 30 years. It's not that the order is strict in India. It's just that the ignoramus's karma is heavy. Has there ever been anyone who mistakenly transgressed? So there's a bunch of stuff in there.

[13:54]

The letter A is taken as the distillation of the Heart Sutra mantra. It's kind of the epitome of emptiness in some Tibetan lineages, and this was known in Zen and Chan and Zen too. But if you hold anything in your mind, Wansung is saying, you'll go to hell. So one side of this is, we could say, is emptiness teaching. No, not falling into cause and effect. He says, it's just that the ignoramus's karma is heavy. Well, all of us, you know, in terms of the practice of this, have to deal with our own ignorant karma. We all have ancient twisted karma. that we avow in our service. We all have regrets and good and bad things that we can look back on in the past. And the practice of this, of not ignoring cause and effect, is to just see that.

[14:58]

not to, we don't have to be obsessed by it, but if we're obsessed by it, that's part of the karma too. But then how do, but then every action has an effect. So how do we look forward? How do we use the karmic situation that brought you to be here this morning, that allowed you to be practicing, to look forward to how to engage precepts and take care of this life in this world. But then at the end of his introduction, one song says, has there ever been anyone who mistakenly transgresses? So there's a song, there are no mistakes in life, some people say, and it's true that sometimes you can see it that way. And so here, one way of seeing this case is that everything we do is part of our karmic connection.

[16:08]

And looking ahead to a comment by Dogen that I'll get to, is this isn't just a personal matter. This has to do with all the things that are happening in the world. almost 13,000 children of Hispanic descent being imprisoned indefinitely, detained indefinitely in camps that they're building more of on the border. Anyway, there's things that happen in the world too that are about cause and effect. Has there ever been anyone who mistakenly transgressed? Well, that's a real question. Wansong is not a rhetorical question. Okay, I want to say a little more about Wansong's commentary on the case before I get to Dogen. So this, he says, this old master, this fox, saw that Baizhang had the skill to pull out nails and draw out pegs.

[17:26]

Anyway, that relates to another story. But he says Baizhang gave a fearless explanation, lightly turning and saying, he is not blind to cause and effect. The old man, the fox, was greatly enlightened at these words. He based his logic on actuality. Wang Tsung says, not falling into cause and effect is forced denial, a nihilistic view. So this is being caught by emptiness, forced denial, nihilism, not falling into cause and effect. We have seen examples of greatly cultivated people even, who think they are not subject to cause and effect. Then one says, not being blind to cause and effect is finding the wondrous along with the flow. So this is basic bodhisattva practice, that the ultimate is not somewhere else in some realm of emptiness or suchness, but happens right along Michigan Avenue and the lakeshore, and happens right in the everyday phenomenal appearances in our world.

[18:44]

not being blind to cause and effect is finding the wondrous along with the flow, the flow of causes and conditions. Then Wansong says, those who understand the vehicle of the teachings see immediately when this is brought up, but though they shed their foxy hair clothes, they're still wearing fishy scale armor. Have you not heard it told how when Chan Master Yuan was in the assembly of Chan Master Hui, he heard two monks bringing up this story. One monk said, even if he's not blind to cause and effect, he still hasn't shed his wild fox body. So that's interesting. Even when not ignoring cause and effect, we might turn into a fox for 500 lifetimes or maybe just a few lifetimes. The other monk replied, just this is not falling into cause and effect.

[19:50]

And when has he ever fallen into cause and effect? So this teacher was startled and considered these words unusual. He hurried to a hermitage on Mount Huangpo. He crossed a valley stream. Suddenly he was awakened. He saw Master Nan and told what happened. Before he finished, tears were streaming over his jaws. Master Nan made him sleep soundly on the attendance bench, the Jisha bench, but suddenly he got up and wrote a verse. Not falling, not blind for monks or lay folk. There are no taboos. The bearing of a free person is like a king's. How can he accept the enclosure of a bag or covering by a lid? One's staff can be horizontal or vertical. The wild fox enters the lair of the golden lion. OK, so this is another example of seeming to see these two sides as interconnected.

[20:55]

So Wansong continues, seeing it in this way, when we first see him say, I now ask you to turn a word for me, hopefully he would have said, he does not fall into cause and effect to avoid beginning to fall into the pit of understanding. and becoming a fox. In the evening, Baizhang went into the hall and recounted the preceding events. So this is the story about Wang Po going up and slapping Baizhang. But a later teacher, Yangshan, said, Baizhang attained the great capacity. Wang Po attained the great function. So... And Yangshan also said, Wang Bo always uses this capacity. Did he get it from birth or from another? And Yangshan said, this is both his receiving his teacher's bequest, his teacher's teaching, and also inherent communion with the source.

[22:06]

Okay, there's a numbers of issues here. Just to try and unpack this a little bit. There's the question of, How could, well, there's so many questions, it's hard to know where to start, but there's a couple of sides here. Not falling into cause and effect. Being beyond conditioning. So it happens that people have, you know, dramatic experiences, or just through sitting regularly, upright, paying attention, we develop communion with that which is beyond conditions and cause and effect. And this old man who became a fox, and there are examples of this in American Zen, as I was saying yesterday, this old man became a fox for 500 lifetimes because he said this. The other side is, of course, not falling into, not ignoring, not being blind to cause and effect.

[23:14]

There's a way in which it's possible to see these as interrelated, as two sides of one coin, as it's been said. And I don't know if there's time to read this first comment. I'll just say briefly, this first comment, I like Tom Cleary's translation of Gateless Barrier because he has other masters' comments about the case. Well, first I'll read what Womann says. Womann is the collector of the Gateless Barrier, and he has little prose and verse comments to each case. In part, he says, if not subject to causality, how could one degenerate into a wild fox? If not blind to causality, how could one be liberated from being a wild fox? So how could Bajang, just turning a word, actually free him from his karma?

[24:23]

In his verse, Uman says, not subject, not blind, two faces of one die. Or we could say two sides of the same coin. not blind, not subject to 1,000 errors, 10,000 mistakes. So in terms of our practice of working with karma, of course, we've all made what we might call mistakes. We've all made choices in our life that if we look back on, oh, if I'd only done that, or if I'd only not done that. And in some ways, it's important to make mistakes. We learn how to be helpful in the world by trial and error, by trying things and missing, making mistakes. And it's maybe impossible not to make mistakes. That's part of what Woolman is saying. But this idea of these two positions being two sides of one coin was the basic understanding of the story in Chinese Chan.

[25:31]

And I'll just read this. It's a lengthy poem, but I want to read. I'll read it all, because then I'll read a little bit of Tom Cleary's comments on it. This is by a teacher named Ling Yuan. Clearly saying, not subject, when was the old man ever mistaken? So that starts off by saying, it wasn't really mistaken to say a greatly cultivated person is not subject to cause and effect. Pointedly saying, not blind, how did Baizhang ever understand? Non-understanding with non-mistaking together express subtle awareness. So again, this is taking the side of these two being interrelated. The causes and effects of the whole potential have reasons. Rising and sinking in the totality, there is nothing taboo. It's a radical and maybe dangerous idea. But then he says, wrong is its own wrong. Right is who's right.

[26:31]

Distracted from the source at the spoken word, one gave rise to deliberation. And yes, we get caught in all these deliberations about cause and effect. Questioning again, he had it brought up once more, secretly watching the rousing of wind and thunder underneath it all. With an opposing wind, he shouted him around on the thunder's rumble died. Shutting up, the fox returned to his home to hide his disgraceful ineptness. Bai Zhang lifted the autumn moon all the way up over the peak. So this is a very poetic response to this story from a later teacher. Oh, I didn't mention that Women also says in this comment that the former resident of the mountains gained 500 lifetimes of elegance. So another way to look at this story, you know, we can turn and turn and turn and we'll never finish with this story.

[27:34]

But another way to look at it is, oh yeah, he became a fox for 500 lifetimes. How wonderful. And he was engaging in, maybe he was a fox bodhisattva, I don't know. Anyway, there's that kind of interpretation as well. I read this verse, though, just because I wanted to read. Tom Perry has comments on every line. I'll just read a couple of them, though. To say that Baizhang's statement is pointed means that Zen attention to causal processes is deliberate, focused, concrete, and practical. To question the possibility of ever understanding refers to the ultimate infinity of reality. So there's this aspect of not knowing causality which is part of this too. We don't know how all the elaborate causes and conditions and effects that allowed each of us to just be on our seat here today.

[28:40]

So to question the possibility of ever understanding refers to the ultimate infinity of reality and the consequent need for perpetually ongoing awakening. So one experience of going beyond causes and conditions, as I was talking about yesterday, that's not the end. And people get deluded by enlightenment. Once a theory goes on, reality is infinite in both scope and detail. So the development of Zen consciousness in the total sense is a never-ending path. Yeah, having some dramatic experience of seeing causes and conditions, or seeing beyond causes and conditions, is just one step, or maybe just the beginning. And here he also says, in order to understand the real meaning and value of such judgments and assessments about causes and conditions, it is essential to see them in context and understand the underlying assumptions and premises upon which they are based.

[29:54]

Maybe that's enough of that. So again, there's this view that's described in many commentaries to this story. particularly in the whole of Chan history, that in some ways both, there's a non-duality, there's a way in which both not falling into causes and conditions and not being blind to causes and conditions can work together. So I want to come back to that, but I want to look at what Dogen said about this. So a few things. He wrote two essays in Shobo Genzo about this story of the fox. One is called Daishugyo, A Great Cultivation. He wrote that in 1244, just after he'd moved away from Kyoto. But there's another one called Jinshin Inga, deep faith in cause and effect.

[30:57]

And the question of faith comes up in this too. And that's maybe a whole other Dharma talk. But deep faith in cause and effect was one of the things that he wrote very near the end of his career. And he takes a much stronger stand about the side of not ignoring cause and effects and the importance of the precepts and the importance of ethical conduct. And as a Dogen scholar and translator, it's my opinion that this is the one shift in viewpoint in Dogen's career. There are lots of discussions about Dogen's teaching, and he says somewhat different things at different times, which I think can be attributed to the context of who he was talking to. But this is a real shift. He starts out in his earlier comments seeing both sides as connected in the way that the Chinese commentaries do.

[31:57]

And in this later essay, and I'm going to read some things from this extensive record, Dogen takes a strong side, and this is important in our tradition coming from Dogen, and the tradition of precepts. He takes a very strong side on the importance of not ignoring ethical conduct. In some ways, he's taking one side in this duality, perhaps. So I want to read, as I did the last couple of days, because I think they're helpful, three actually, and he talks about, Dogen talks in his extensive record, numbers of times about the Fox story, but there's three that I'll talk about. In 1242, before he moved away from Kyoto, he told the story about Baizhang and the fox. And then Dogen said, mountains, rivers, and the great earth are the cave of the wild fox.

[33:03]

Receive and discard one piece of skin, flesh, and bone. Cause and effect are very clear and not a personal matter. Partridges sing incessantly in late spring, and a hundred flowers fade." So, here Dogen is talking about the phenomenal world, the world of causes and conditions. And he says, mountains, rivers, and the great earth are the cave of the wild fox. So, the old teacher who became a fox because he gave, supposedly because he gave the wrong answer, Maybe this wild fox enjoyed the mountains, rivers, and great earth, and of course we know that foxes do that. But then Tolkien says, cause and effect are very clear and not a personal matter. And then he gives this poetic invocation, partridges sing incessantly in late spring and a hundred flowers fade, but cause and effect are clear, not a personal matter, and I've talked here about

[34:22]

how karma is not just personal. So we all have our personal karma. We all have things we've done that have had results. We all do things and those have results. Part of the ways in which we are caught by patterns of habit or obsession or whatever are products of many causes and conditions that have to do with our personal karma. And yet, obviously, there's a communal karma that leads to things like floods in North Carolina and fires on the West Coast. And that's not a product of, well maybe it's many persons, but it's a product of a whole cultural context. So there's a communal karma that we're all subject to also. We also live in the world where, that is, in a society that is affected by the history of slavery and racism, for example. So it's interesting that Dogen doesn't say much more about this here.

[35:26]

It's a short Dharamhal discourse, but anyway, I just want to note that. Okay, the next Dharamhal talk that I want to mention is from 1246, after he moved to Aheji. And this is very powerful. So he told the story of Baizhang and the wild fox. And then he asks the assembly, because of the previous Baizhang saying that he did not fall into cause and effect, so you all understand that the old man who came was the previous Baizhang. He was the teacher on Baizhang in this past age. So because of the previous Baizhang saying that he did not fall into cause and effect, why did he descend into a wild fox body? As to the later Baizhang saying he was not blind to cause and effect, how did this cause the release from the wild fox body? That's part of this koan. How, you know, just Baizhang's turning word, how can such a word free the fox?

[36:30]

Okay. Then Dogen, who had obviously been wrestling with this paused and then he said, I can't stand this wild fox monster shaking his head and wagging his tail. Stop, stop. Dogen was very disturbed by this story over his career and came to a different conclusion. In 1252, his last year of teaching, He passed away the following year. In one of his dharma hall discourses, he says, students of the way cannot dismiss cause and effect. If you discard cause and effect, you will ultimately deviate from practice realization. So he talks, there's a story about how practice realization cannot be defiled, and that's what all the Buddhist ancestors hold. But here, Dogen is saying, if you discard cause and effect, you will deviate from practice realization.

[37:34]

After again relating the story of Baizhang's wild fox, Dogen said, someone doubted this saying a wild fox is an animal. How could it remember 500 lifetimes? So this is a sort of side issue, but it's worth considering. This doubt is most foolish. You should know that various living beings, either animal or human, are inherently endowed with the power to know past lives. So this is one of the powers, great supernatural powers attributed to the Buddha himself. But Dogen here says that, This is not a human thing or an animal thing that many beings can know past lives. I also talked the first day about the debate between Stephen Batchelor and Robert Thurman about rebirth and reincarnation and Bodhisattva context. We can come back to that. But even animals, Dogen says here, can know past lives.

[38:39]

Okay, then Dogen says, someone said not falling into cause and effect and not ignoring cause and effect are one and the same. And yet either falling or being released simply happens spontaneously. So this is what Dogen is referring to somebody's statement. And then he says, such views are completely outside the way. Today, I, A. Hay, will add a comment. If you say people of great cultivation do not fall into cause and effect, you are certainly dismissing cause and effect. and karma and the reality of the phenomenal world. If you say they do not ignore cause and effect, you have not yet avoided counting the neighbor's treasure. So not ignoring cause and effect, we still have to look at, we have to study, we have to, our zazen is immersion in the world of cause and effect, thoughts and feelings and all the stuff

[39:44]

of our own life and the world. After a pause, Tolkien said, after many years of residing on this mountain, this was after 10 years being in, having left Kyoto, a black staff becomes a dragon and this morning arouses wind and thunder. So Dogen here, like in his Deep Faith in Cause and Effect essay, is taking a very strong stand on one side of this issue. We must not ignore cause and effect. And the 16 Bodhisattva precepts which we use and which come from Dogen, you know, that we must follow those precepts and that we can, if we don't, we might become wild foxes. This is a key aspect of our particular branch of the teaching of Soto Zen, that we pay attention to cause and effect, that we see how our responses to the world may be helpful, that we try and be helpful, that we act according to Bodhisattva ethics.

[41:11]

And on so many levels, all of the stuff that comes up in Zazen is about how is, how that is. And it's not that we, it's not that there aren't also spaces in between all those thoughts and feelings in times when maybe, it's not that we're not subject to, but we go beyond that. But in deep faith in cause and effect in that essay and in this last Dharamhala discourse, again, does seem to be taking one side of what the Chinese people said were two sides of one coin. So this is not just theoretical. This has to do with our practice. How do we respect

[42:14]

and appreciate all the causes and conditions that have brought us here. How do we express gratitude and generosity to all of the aspects of our life, even the ones that we sometimes may regret? They're part of what's here. And we may feel bad about things. That's okay. Avowing our ancient twisted karma is to recognize that. But then how do we see that we have the capacity and function to express helpfulness in the world. So I will be so bold as to suggest a non-duality beyond Dogen's duality over the previous non-duality, that our practice gives us the space to commune with that which does go beyond causes and conditions.

[43:20]

Sometimes this happens through dramatic experiences, seeing into the nature of things, Kensho it's called. But that's not the end of practice, that's the beginning of practice. It also happens just through regular zazen practice, having some regular rhythm in our week of stopping and sitting down and upright but relaxed, facing the wall, facing ourselves, facing all of the myriad things arising. And doing this regularly, we come to have some relationship to the deeper reality of interconnectedness of that which goes beyond particular causes and conditions. But then, if we are not ignoring causes and conditions, we have the capacity to respond more helpfully.

[44:24]

So the point of our practice is not to you know, have some special experience. This is not about getting high or self-help. This is about communing with some deep, deeper awareness. And the point of that is then, okay, when we step out onto Irving Park Road or the rest of our life, what is expressed? How do we take care of that? So I'm suggesting that both, and I don't think this counters Dogen actually, but Dogen is emphasizing not ignoring cause and effect. But we can be more, I would suggest that we can be more effective in not ignoring cause and effect when we are informed. by this communion to that which goes beyond it. So I could keep babbling, and we will have a time for discussion.

[45:26]

Those of us who are here for the whole day this afternoon, but maybe we could have a little bit of comments or responses or questions about this story and all of its implications. So if anyone has something to offer, or suggest, or question, please feel free. Nicholas. Is Ken's show related to a profound and vivid experience of permanence? Sure. of impermanence and of interconnectedness and of dropping attachment to self. And there's different kinds of levels or whatever of Kensho. But as I spoke at more length yesterday about the dangers of thinking that that's the point of practice. And actually from the context of Dogen's teaching, that's kind of the starting point of practice. And whether or not we have some dramatic experience

[46:29]

connection with something that does go beyond is then how do we express that ongoingly? So one of the references that I think, I don't know if that was in clear, I guess in clear he talking about that this is an unending process, this practice. In each situation, how do we meet the costs and effects of that? But having some deep sense of what goes beyond can be helpful. Are there time for a couple more comments or questions or responses? Yes, Dylan. The original case in the Book of Serenity? Yeah, sure.

[47:31]

When Baizhang lectured in the hall, there was always an old man who listened to the teaching and then dispersed with the crowd. One day, he did not leave. Baizhang then asked him, who is it standing there? The old man said, in antiquity, in the time of the ancient Buddha Kashapa, I lived on this mountain. Which means he was the teacher there. So this is a Zen slang way of saying that. The student asked me, does a greatly cultivated person still fall into cause and effect or not? I answered, he does not fall into cause and effect. And I fell into a wild fox body for 500 lives. Now I asked the teacher, Baizhang, to turn a word in my behalf. Baizhang said, he is not blind to cause and effect. The old man was greatly awakened at these words. It's how anything happens.

[48:52]

There's no way to get out. Yes, there's something bad that's going on, but you're always working together with other people, whether or not you're conscious of that or not. It's part of a project with others. I guess, have an influence on what it is to do something on his behalf, or open up an opportunity for him to have another experience. Yeah. Where there could be a transformation. Right. So yeah, we're all connected with many beings, and in some sense nothing happens

[49:52]

alone, that's what cause and effect means. That's what causes and conditions are, is that we're not isolated. There are Pratyekabuddhas, self-awakened beings, but they're kind of seen as problematic in the tradition because they did not receive it, they did not get help from a teacher, and they don't know how to teach, and they don't share it with anyone. So it's sort of almost irrelevant, but yeah, we live in a world of the flow, of the wondrous, how does one song put it, I like that passage. finding the wondrous along with the flow, that we live in this flow of phenomena. And so, yeah, and it doesn't mean necessarily even going to some formal reputable teacher, you know, all kinds of circumstances can be the trigger for us realizing something that goes beyond self.

[50:57]

So there are lots of stories about people, you know, hearing a sound or seeing flowers or something and awakening, yeah. Yeah, they've had some life, yeah. So time for one more, yes? That's true.

[52:03]

That's true. This happens all the time. And it could be done, it could be... Yeah, well, there are notable stories of exceptions where somebody or some bodhisattva does something. There's a story about a bodhisattva who knows that there's a guy who's about to kill all the people on the train or a boat or whatever and kills them first, you know, which is an evil act and he has to suffer for it, but he's actually saved many beings. So, you know, that's a kind of, maybe that's a hypothetical. But still, yeah, your point is one, the point of all this is one must express. Well, we do. We cannot help but breathe and act and sit and stand and walk and lie down.

[53:07]

and interact with many beings. And so how do we do that in accord with seeing that whatever we do has some effect? And, you know, the Bodhisattva ideas that we try and express kindness and caring and helpfulness and the wish that may all beings be happy and so forth. But sometimes one has to act strongly to stop someone else from causing harm. So how to do that is one of the great questions of our time. So thank you. And thank you for the discussions the last couple of days. And we'll continue this afternoon. And I'll try and do a summary of all this tomorrow evening. This is a story that's been studied for 1,000 years or more because it is so rich in implications for the question of how we take care of our lives. And there's so many aspects of it that we didn't get to today, but anyway, thank you all.

[54:15]

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