Good evening and welcome. I'm going to continue the series of talks I've been doing on the Book of Serenity, a collection of old teaching stories. And tonight is case 14. So For tonight, I will start, usually I just start with the case itself, but I'll start with the introduction. So the cases and verses were chosen by Hongzhe Zhongshui, great-uncle of Dogen's in China. The introduction and commentaries are by Wansong, a contemporary of Dogen's, or a little bit later in China. Anyway, the introduction from Wansong goes, probing pole in hand, shadowing grass around him, sometimes he wraps a ball of silk in iron.

[01:05]

Sometimes he wraps a special stone with silk. To determine the soft by means of the hard is, of course, right. What about the matter of being weak when meeting strength? So this introduction is talking about silk and stone and weak and strength. The story is about the great master Deshan, or Tokuzan is the way he says it. We say it in Japanese. So the story goes like this. When Ho asked Deshan, where have all the sages since antiquity gone? Deshan said, what? How's that? Ho said, the order was for a flying dragon horse, but a lame tortoise shows up. Deshan let it rest and just left. The next day, when Deshan came out of the bath, Ho passed him some tea. Deshan patted Ho on the back. Ho said, this old fellow has finally gotten a glimpse.

[02:10]

Again, Deshan let the matter rest. So maybe I'll read Hongsha's verse comment and come back to the case. Coming right up face to face, an adept knows. Here, sparks and lightning are slow. The plotter who lost the moment has a deep intent to fool the enemy army into thinking ahead, each shot a sure hit. Who's fooled anymore? When you see jowls from behind his head, The man is hard to run afoul of. Setting his eyes under his eyebrows, he got the advantage. So maybe we'll come back to the verse. But I want to focus on talking about Deschamps. So part of what happens in these stories is that a lot of these major figures from the Tang period are kind of iconic and have a kind of identity. And Deschamps, particularly, is

[03:11]

interesting fellow. He's three generations after Shoto, or Sekito, who wrote the Song of the Grass Hut and the Harmony of Difference and Sameness that we chanted tonight. But from a different student of Shoto than Dongshan comes from. So Dongshan, the founder of our lineage, is also three generations after, so they're contemporaries, but kind of cousins. And the story, Deshan is famous for hitting his students and pounding his students, and he taught with a very rough way. But the story about his coming to Zen is interesting, or Chan, they called it in China. Deshan was originally a scholar of the Diamond Sutra. But he heard that in the South there were these Chan people who taught by pointing direct mind to mind.

[04:15]

not depending on words and letters, not depending on sutras. And of course, as an expert in the sutra, he had to go challenge one of these people. So he was approaching a well-known monastery, and he encountered one of these old Zen grannies on the road. So there are lots of stories about these old women, laywomen, who lived near the monasteries and were good at testing the monks. So this one was selling tea cakes. Tien shin in Japanese, literally these were cakes that mean relaxing the mind. Anyway, so Deshan went up to her to buy a tea cake, to buy a cake, and she saw him and said, oh, what's that? He was carrying this backpack filled with commentaries, this huge backpack filled with commentaries on the Diamond Sutra.

[05:20]

And so this old granny said to him, what's all that you're carrying on your back? And he said, oh, I'm known as Diamond Zhao. I'm an expert in the Diamond Sutra. And these are all my commentaries, all the commentaries I've been studying. And the old granny said, oh, interesting. I've heard it said that in the Diamond Sutra, they say that present mind cannot be grasped, past mind cannot be grasped, and future mind cannot be grasped. I want to ask you a question. If you can answer, I'll give you a tea cake. And she said, If present mind cannot be grasped, past mind cannot be grasped, future mind cannot be grasped, with which mind are you going to take this tea cake? And Deschamps was speechless. He didn't know what to say. And he was embarrassed. And he walked to the nearby monastery.

[06:22]

And in front of the monastery, he burned all of his commentaries. So that's sort of the introduction to Deschamps. And, you know, again, he taught by, you know, it was kind of rough style. Like Linge, who was a contemporary, who would shout, Deschamps was, you know, Well, there's one saying, he used to say, if you give me an answer, I'll give you 30 blows. If you don't give me an answer, I'll give you 30 blows. So, you know, there's this rough style of Macho Chan early on. It's happened early in American Zen, too. Anyway, so the story we're talking about tonight, Deshan's older. So I'll read the case again. Attendant Wo, so that's probably the Jisha like Venice tonight.

[07:28]

Attendant Wo asked Deshan, where have all the sages since antiquity gone? Deshan said, what? How's that? Wo said. The order was for a flying dragon horse, but a lame tortoise showed up. Deshan let it rest. The next day, Deshan was coming out of the bath, and Ho passed him some tea. Deshan patted Ho on the back. Ho said, ah, this old fellow has finally gotten a glimpse. Again, Deshan let the matter rest. So, you know, a lot of these stories, these old traditional Zen stories, dialogues, sometimes there's a kind of Dharma combat. You know, we can imagine a winner and a loser, and somebody's trying to understand, and somebody's testing something. They can be testing each other. You often teach a student like this. But in this case, Deschanes, who, you know, maybe when he was younger would have just punched out. He said, what?

[08:29]

How's that? But the question, Waller's first question, is very interesting. Where have all the sages since antiquity gone? And so, you know, these old teaching stories about all these sages since antiquity. Where have all the sages since antiquity gone? So we can hear that in a couple of different ways, at least. Where have all the flowers gone? Where have all the sages gone? Well, they're no longer here. So we have our Parinirvana statue of the Buddha out. We did the Parinirvana Day celebration yesterday. The Buddha is passing away into nirvana. So nirvana technically means cessation. So maybe you can't see it, Dennis. It's in front of the Buddha, but you can see it later. And traditionally, the Parinirvana image, the Buddha is lying down on his right side because the historical Buddha passed away lying on his right side with many people around him.

[09:35]

So Nirvana, in early Buddhism, Nirvana meant escape from samsara, escape from the world, escape from the rat race, from fame and gain and loss and so forth. Later on, in the Bodhisattva practice, in Chan and later Buddhism, nirvana was seen not as something outside of the ordinary world, but right in the world of samsara, right in right in the big city, right in our everyday activity, how do we find nirvana right there? How do we respond with joy and wokeness in the world? And how do we be helpful? But nirvana technically happens when you die. So the Buddha's gone.

[10:41]

He passed away 2,500 years ago, Shakyamuni Buddha. And yet, as I talked about yesterday at more length in the Lotus Sutra, one of the important sutras in our school, it says that actually the Buddha only pretends to pass away, that he has this inconceivably long lifespan. So there's a way in which Buddha is still here. And how do we understand that? So this question. that Deshan is asked by his attendant, where have all the sages gone? One side of it is, oh, they're passed away. They're no longer here. But we could also hear, where have all the sages gone? Where are they? How can I find them? I want to see them. So if the Buddha is still here, how do we find? where the sages have gone, right in our cushion, right in our seat, right in the middle of our meditation and our life.

[11:48]

Where have all the sages gone? How can I find them? Where are they? Where are they? So of course, Deshon doesn't challenge him. Deshon doesn't, you know, Deshon just kind of, he lets it go, as the story says. Oh, wrong book. But then the next day, Deshan, the attendant, sees Deshan. Well, first of all, the attendant says, when Deshan pretends not to hear, well, how's that? The attendant says, the order was for a flying dragon horse. I was looking for a dragon.

[12:50]

but all I got was a lame tortoise that showed up. But Deschamps, you know, just walked away. The next day, Deschamps came out of the bath, Huo passed him again, passed him some tea, and Deschamps patted Huo on the back. And Huo said, this old fellow has finally gotten a glimpse. So, Wan Sung's commentary. Deshan usually thrashed the wind and beat the rain, hollering at the Buddhas and reviling the patriarchs. So this is Deshan's reputation as a wild man. This monk's errors filled the sky. Why did Deshan let him go? What is hardly realized is that he wrestled down oxen without using rope, killed people without using a sword. How many has he ever let go?" So Deshan had many disciples. you know, legendary tough guy.

[13:55]

But here, he just lets it go, both parts of the story. A later teacher, Wang Long, said, Deshan, about this story, Deshan keeps deaf and plays dumb. For even so, he gets the advantage unseen. Mr. Huo covered his ears to steal the bell. What can be done for the unseemliness of the onlooker? So this teacher is saying that Deshan really got it in that story, and Hua was just, I don't know, it was unseemly. He was just looking on. So Wansong says, I say, is he just stealing the bell? He is like trying to take the jewel from under the jet black dragon's jaw at the depths of the abyss, getting there just when the dragon is asleep. If the dragon wakes up, he'll surely be chopped into mincemeat.

[14:57]

So referring to Deshan as a dragon, and here's this student coming, trying to get some answer, get some response, get some wisdom. And the dragon's asleep. You know, this happens. Dragons are said to hold a jewel under their jaw. and lived down in caves often. But one song is warning. If the dragon wakes up, he'll surely be chopped into mincemeat. Another teacher said, if you don't go up to the dragon gate, how can you know the vastness of the blue sea? Even if the waves crash a thousand fathoms, nevertheless, a dragon pays no notice. Wansong says, the fine scaled piece of armor is not to be wondered at. So this Dragon Gate, this is where we're sitting is the ancient Dragon's End Gate.

[16:05]

And there's an image on this side of the altar of the Dragon Gate. Do you all know about the Dragon Gate? There was one in, I think it was the Yellow River in China, one of the most big rivers. And when a fish comes and swims through the gate, they become a dragon. So I'm not sure, but it's possible that there's a Dragon Gate down in Lake Michigan. I don't know. But here, approaching the Dragon Gate, approaching Deshan, this attendant thought he got the better of him, it looks like. Again, this teacher said, if you don't go up to the dragon gate, how can you know the vastness of the blue sea? Even if the waves crash a thousand fathoms, nevertheless, a dragon pays no notice. So the dragon, the true dragon, true wisdom, doesn't care what people think about whether they've seen the dragon or not.

[17:22]

But you have to go up to the dragon gate. You have to go up to that gate and swim through and join the dragons. So again, where have all the sages since antiquity gone? Well, they're hanging around under that dragon gate maybe. Another teacher said, Deshan really had ruthless hands and feet, but he saw that this monk was not a person to accept the hammer. So he stopped right away. So that teacher thought, oh, this attendant really was not worth punching out for Deshan. I say the ancients each had, Wang Tsung says, the ancients each had techniques meeting people in accordance with the situation. So this practice of skillful means, you know, how do you, how does a teacher meet a student? How does a student meet a teacher? How do we pass along mutually to each other this jewel, this dragon jewel that is actually

[18:35]

right here under your seat, very close, right inside the gate. And, you know, sometimes it's a good thing to yell or scream or shout. Sometimes, This is a different way. So Deshan was an old man at this point, this story. Let me finish Wansong's comment, and then I want to talk about grandmother's end. Deshan said to Yanto, you will shit on my head someday. Later, Yanto actually said, even the great Deshan does not understand the last word. So the ancients censure and extol, letting go and holding back. How could they be involved in gain and loss, victory and defeat? This isn't about victory and defeat. All these koans, these old stories, seem to be about somebody's winning, somebody's losing. But that's not the point. Huanglong and Dagui just brought up the general outline.

[19:37]

And then he goes into the Hongzhe's verse comment, which we might get to. But I want to talk about Grandma's in, old grandmother's in. So Deshaun, maybe he was just too old to hit his attendant at this point. He just let it go. He wasn't going to waste his energy. Where have all the old sages gone? Long time passing. Well, you know, there's this thing called Grandmother Zen. There's a story about Dogen, our founder in Japan, when he was studying in a monastery in China. And with his teacher, Tiantong Rujing, whose name we chant when we chant our ancestors as the teacher of Dogen. There's a story about him, about Tiantong saying to Dogen, I'm too old and I can't hit the monks hard enough to wake them up.

[20:40]

So this is a problem sometimes. But there's a story about Dogen later on when he was a teacher. He had one of his fine disciples, Tetsugikai. Late in Dogen's life, he said to Tetsugikai, You know, I just can't give you transmission. I can't give you the dharma, because you don't have enough grandmotherly mind. So this is a story about Deshan when he's old, and he's given up all the fisticuffs, really. He's just hanging out with his students. And eventually, the student very kindly gave him some tea. Eventually, Tetsugikai became the third abbot of Eheji.

[21:42]

He received transmission from Dogen's student, Koen Ejo. So there's a lot of interesting stories about Tetsugikai. But partly, this story, I think, has to do with Grandmother Lizen. How do we share? How do we find where have all the sages gone? since antiquity. Where are all the ancients? How is Buddha alive now? Well, you know, sometimes yelling and shouting and being tough is helpful, you know. There are outposts of macho Zen even still in America. And maybe, you know, for some people that's helpful. But here, Deshaun just lets it go. What? How's that? Deshaun's no fool, but maybe he's tired. Maybe he needs a nap.

[22:44]

So I'm I could just stop there and talk about the Dragon Gate and Grandmother Luzon and these old stories. This guy who burned all of his commentaries from the Diamond Sutra just becoming this wild Zen teacher. But maybe I'll just read a little bit of Wansong's commentary. I'll read Hongshuo's verse again. Coming right up face to face, an adept knows. Here sparks and lightning are slow. The plotter who lost the moment has a deep intent, referring to Deshan in the story, to fool the enemy army into not thinking ahead. Each sought a sure hit, who's fooled anymore? When you see jowls from behind his head, which might apply to a dragon holding a jewel under his chin, the man is hard to run afoul of.

[23:46]

Setting his eyes under his eyebrows, he got the advantage. So the Wansong's commentary, I'll just read through this, some interesting things here. Where have all the sages since antiquity gone? He sure seems to have missed it, right in front of him. Deshan said, what, what? Deshan hid his body with a reed shade, bringing forth shining eye mirrors. This is an old story that's referenced, but I'll skip that. Deshan used this one device, temporarily taking a shortcut. Certainly, one can't understand it at face value. which is always the case with these stories. We have to see what comes up for us. What looks like winner and loser or whatever isn't always obvious. Tian Tong, Hongzhe said, that moment is quicker than flint sparks or a lightning flash. How can Desha not have known the attendant wouldn't let him go? So this attendant was persistent searching for the ancient sages.

[24:53]

He sent a go-between looking for a pigeon, put down his capital, planning for a profit. But after all, he couldn't get out of the other's target range. So that could refer either way, but I think to Deshon. If suddenly someone should ask me where the sages have gone, I'd slap him on the jaw and say, they're here. So that's Wansong. Even a flying dragon and lame tortoise draw in their heads and hoofs, and the attendant and Deshan lose their points and become tongue-tied. Do you yet know the old fellow Deshan? As a young man, he used to determine the arrays of dragons and snakes by testing his students. Grown senile, now he listens to a child's song." There's lots of ways to see this story, and the point of the story isn't to figure it out or get some answer. Koans are not riddles to solve, but to allow it to bring up issues in our practice.

[26:03]

What is it like when the teacher's gone old and can't yell loud enough anymore? How do we see where have all the sages gone? How do we look for them? How do we see if Buddha is still alive? How do we appreciate grandmotherly mind? So His Holiness the Dalai Lama says Buddhism is just about kindness. And generally in Soto Zen and for most of Sugiyoshi's lineage, you know, Zazen is just gentle. I practiced in places in Japan where it was edge of your seat, Zazen, and there was a guy with a big stick walking around, and if you closed your eyes, wham! But here, I just trust that if you just sit and settle and calm, pay attention, face the wall, face yourself, something happens.

[27:16]

So something is to be said for Grandmother Lisanne. Comments, questions, responses. Yes, Douglas. Carrying forward, what? Carrying forward is having burned the primaries of the dynasty. He wasn't going to get into a discussion. Good. So, what, what? It was like the monarchy inside. Yeah. The monarchy was too stupid to speak. It was expressing emptiness and transcendence. And that's sort of carrying forward to this day. Yeah. Yeah.

[28:17]

Aisha. I was struck by the original introduction where you were reading about wrapping a ball of silk with iron, or wrapping a stone with silk, and it made me think of Yes. Yeah, so this is also a story about skillful means, about how do we respond to the situation based on the person in front of us? How do we be helpful in a particular context? Let me read that introduction again, because I like it a lot.

[29:22]

It's good. Probing pole in hand, shadowing grass around him, sometimes he wraps a ball of silk in iron I'm trying to imagine that. Sometimes he wraps a special stone with silk to determine the soft by means of the hard is, of course, right. What about the matter of being weak when meeting strength? So it's not just a matter of having one policy. So partly, to get these stories, you have to kind of be there. You have to imagine. attended Woe and Deshaun. Who would you cast in that scene? Maybe Deshaun is De Niro, but who's attended Woe? Anyway. Yes, Wade. It strikes me that the scene is coming on.

[30:28]

Maybe they're still alive. Alive or dead. Alive or dead. And you can say he's empty, but you can also say he's fully present then.

[31:52]

And according to the Lotus Sutra now, and according to our practice, how do we feel these ancient sages, this ancient truth, this ancient dharma in our own body mind? And then how do we express it? It's not enough to just understand these stories. So these are stories about relationship and expression. country is a problem itself. And how his father, they were at a cafe or something, and there was a regular in town, Mr. Wilson, who passed in the cafe, greeted his father, and said, your name is George.

[33:05]

And Henry said, but Dad, your name isn't George. Tell him what your name is. And his father said, Mr. Wilson knows my name, son. And that was the entirety of the story. And for me, that referred to the great emptiness of a cultural condition and circumstance that wasn't fully addressable at the time that Yates was a 76-year-old boy in that environment. And I guess your story brings that to mind. Yeah, good. Yeah. He didn't call him boy. Actually, his father referred to Yates as this. He knows my Mr. So it's a reinforcement of the prospect of, I guess, the dignity of living to some degree. Yeah. But no, Mr. Wilson, I guess George is a colloquialism for colored people in the South.

[34:08]

Oh, I see. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah, that story is, Yeah, echoes something in this story. Yeah, thank you. Yes, Jan. Of course. He's challenging him. Where have all the grannies gone? Another insult.

[35:37]

Yeah, and I just felt, this old guy, I don't know. And then there was another thing about the story that puzzled me. Now, the old woman was talking to Michelle, right? Yeah. And she said, I hear that you can't identify your past mind or your present mind or your future mind. And then she says, if you can answer my question, Well, she was quoting from the Diamond Sutra. She knew her stuff. So that's one part of it. But he could have just said, I'll take it with all of the minds and just grabbed it. No, no, never mind. Oh, whatever. So yeah, there's lots of part of working with these stories is imagining what you would have done if you had been Deshan in that situation, for example.

[36:43]

So, the point of the story isn't to figure out some, it's not some puzzle or riddle. It's the point of the story is to play with it. These are theater pieces. How do we improv with them? So, thank you for doing that. Other comments? Yes, Matt. I'm really liking this name, Taurus. Thank you. It's sort of like I know he's so annoyed with it, but I'm wondering what happens when you're expecting a dragon and you meet a flaming horse. Well, you know, maybe there's another gate where the fish swim through and they become a lame tortoise.

[37:46]

The tortoise gate. Yes, Dennis. Right. Absolutely, it's totally a mutual thing. And when you hear, when you read in these stories some proclamation or some statement by a teacher and think that's an ultimate truth, well, it's just that he's saying it to that person.

[39:03]

He might say the opposite to the next guy. So anyway, thank you for playing with the story. Any last comments or reflections? Okay, we'll close with our theme song, the Four Bodhisattva Vows, which we chant three times.

[39:29]

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