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Beyond Time: Zen Realization Unveiled
The talk focuses on the philosophical exploration of being present and understanding time in the context of Zen teachings. The discussion emphasizes the distinction between an individual's conception of the present and the "real present," suggesting that true realization is beyond personal ideas of time. This comprehension of time relates to studying causation and attentively engaging with life for deeper liberation, aligning with Zen Buddhist principles.
Referenced Works and Concepts:
- Dajian Hui Nung: Discussed in the context of realization, highlighting the undefiled way of time and practice before conceptualization.
- Nagarjuna: Referenced for stating that nothing arises from self-cause or other cause, emphasizing the complexity of causation.
- Josephine Zengi: Mentioned for teachings on deep faith in causation, illustrating the interconnectedness of cause and effect.
- Viktor Frankl ("Man's Search for Meaning"): Evoked to demonstrate the relativity of suffering and choice of mindset within inescapable circumstances.
The dialogue interweaves these teachings to underscore moving beyond conventional ideas of time and causation, advocating for a profound integration of these concepts in daily life.
AI Suggested Title: "Beyond Time: Zen Realization Unveiled"
Speaker: Tenshin Reb Anderson
Possible Title: Book of Serenity
Additional text: 2/8
@AI-Vision_v003
Now, can we make clear about this? The time before you, here comes dad. It's dad. That is Paul. Before you came into the room and before I left my room is when you came realization, right? OK? Remember that one? Did we talk about that? You understand that it's not talking about the past, right?
[01:02]
Is that right? That's not the past. That is the actual present, right? Create that up. That's a Zen way of talking about the real present, right? That is all . They understand . So, that's Barbara Isaacson. Yes. . Well, I think it's because they're trying to, in words, convey something that's not conceivable. It's kind of like guiding you away from thinking that some people think that this is the present.
[02:14]
This is the present. This is not the present. This is your idea of the present. You should live in the present, it's true. But that doesn't mean to say, okay, I'm here. This is the present. I'm living in the present. No, this is not the present. Okay? So it's true that Buddhism is about living in the present. But it doesn't mean it's living according to your idea of the present. It's living in the real present. And the real present is beyond your idea of the present. And so they have the impression of like, before you came to this room and before I left my room, Again, the real present is not my idea of the present or your idea of the present. Neither of our idea of the present. The real present is completely open. So that's a linguistic expression for the openness of the true here and now. Any present that you think of
[03:18]
that I think of is a present in which there can be gain and loss. There's a present where there can be improvement. But there's no improvement before you came in this room and before I left my room. There's no improvement in that time. And also it's important, I think, to remember that realization doesn't occur in time. Realization is time. It's not the time when. When is realization. Realization is of when. And that we also cannot see, though. We can talk about it. It's just that the way we talk about it is to try to help us
[04:23]
realize that it's not something, not just our idea. And also, it's not separate from our idea either. It's not like we have our idea and it's over there. It's completely free. It's so free of our idea, it could be right in our idea, but it's not our idea. That's why they talk about it. When I saw that, I didn't understand it any better than anybody else, but I thought, not that. That is a really struck me when I saw that. That's really wonderful and struck me. Even though I don't... In other words, when I read something, it's not so much that I read something that I don't understand I like, but when I read something that I feel directs me to the realm of the inconceivable and guides me to where Zajan really is, how Zajan really is, then I like that. But I don't understand it either in the sense that he'd be able to conceal it. I feel it's authentic.
[05:27]
It's like an authentic instruction. It feels like my true home, my true family. Anything that's saying, this is it, feels off the mark. You know that story where the where I think it was the sixth ancestor met one of his main disciples. The sixth ancestor is Dajian Hui Nung. And when Hwai Rang, Nanyue Hwai Rang came to visit him, he said, what is it that thus come? And Hwai Rang said, to say it's this, it missed the point. The ancestors said, well then is there no practice in realization?
[06:30]
He said, I don't say there's no practice in realization, I just say that it cannot be defiled. The ancestors said, you are thus, I am thus too. All the Buddhism ancestors have protected and cared for this undefiled way. the undefiled way of the time of realization, which is before your parents were born. That doesn't mean your parents were born in 1915 or 1914 or sometime like that. It means that the undefiled way of Buddha is before conception. But before conception is not in the past. That's another conception.
[07:32]
Before conception is the true present. Before conception is the time of realization, or it is realization time. We want to tune into realization time, or Avaloti Teshpara time, or Manjushri time, like Eastern Standard time, Central Standard time, Avaloti Teshpara time. Infinite compassion time. Perfect wisdom time. Okay? Not the time of perfect wisdom. Perfect wisdom time. Is that right? The problem that I have is not time to accept. Yeah. You're just saying you just need time and deal with that time. I mean, you know exactly what it is time and deal with that time. It's not your usual idea of time. I think it's because the way we work with time is one of our main problems.
[08:41]
If we could understand what time is, we'd be liberated on the spot. We mess around with time. We fool around with time. And the way we pull around with it is one of the ways we have problems. So we can work on self-clinging by working on our idea of time. So if you try to come to people, if a Buddhist teacher like this, this guy who's commenting here, if he just comes right up and tries to massage you out of your self-clinging, it may be unsuccessful. But he may be able to massage you out of your idea of time. and be successful indirectly at releasing you from your self-cleaning. Because when you change your idea about time, when you give up your idea of time, you're also going to drop your body and mind. You can live real time. So it's just another skillful device to try to get in the back door and pull the rug out from our self-cleaning.
[09:45]
and get us to really live our life free of attachment. And I like this. I just think it's a nice and nice view of it. And also, the idea that, you see, usually we think of time as a place for realizing happens, right? A time in time death happens. A time in what time birth happens in time. or enlightenment happening to the time. So that's a misconception we have, or that's a conception we have about enlightenment. So by saying enlightenment, the realization is time, is a time. It takes some of our conceptual trappings away from our practice and lets our practice sit more like you know, more instructed by our, it makes us more open-minded about what our practice could be. I think kind of, I find it opens up my mind, making me more, more ready, this kind of talk.
[11:01]
Yeah. Yeah. But if they're present about time, it's quiet. Usually we think time is many of you. And so on. And we think that, and we also, again, when the Buddhists say, could be present here and now, we can understand that that's, it's simple, but it means that you don't necessarily just be complacent and say, okay, I'm present, I'm here. The inconceivable present we're talking about, which is a real present. The real present is not just our little, you know, titsqueak conceptual version of it. The real present is extremely dynamic. Our mind cannot give up with it. But the nature of our mind is really what the present is. No, no.
[12:02]
It's not this room before we came into it. It's before we came in this room. It's not your parent before they were born. It's your faith before they were born. And then I like it because he didn't just say that, because you might think then, oh, well, that was when I was up in the hall. But it's also before I left my room. You have no idea what that is. Between the two of us, we don't know what's happening. Okay, ready for Bodhidharma's emptiness? Yes. What case? The first case. Yes. The term false. Yes. Maybe we should look at the case here.
[13:10]
Second area. The second area. All right, so. They're talking about this. I was speaking about how consciousness, talking about the process of creation of the universe, right? And I'm not so clear about this mind, I must say, but the way I take it is that
[14:15]
This description, this way of talking about how creativity functions and how the world of illusion and the world of self are born through these transformations of consciousness are so subtle and beautiful in this guy's opinion. These other ways of talking about false cause or true cause or no cause are just It just wouldn't, it just isn't, those ways of talking about it are so gross and so simple and so conceptual that he wouldn't even speak of when he was saying that. In other words, what we're alluding to here is a conceivable process of liberation, but one that we must find a way to sit in the middle of. So what does Nagarginas say about it, Laurie? There are no existence whatsoever that arise from the self-cause or other cause.
[15:37]
And how could you speak of this on the same day as false cause and no cause? Nothing arises in no cause. Yeah, nothing arises without cause. Nothing arises from itself. Nothing arises from another. Nothing arises from both. The way things arise are inconceivably complex. And yet, you have all the data right here, always. Mainly, everything that isn't this is causing it. It's very subtle and very beautiful, and it's the main thing we should be concerned with in a happy life. We should be concerned always with causation. Not with manipulating things, but with public cause. To have deep faith in always studying causation, not even spending our time saying how causation works. You know, Josephine Zengi's classical on deep faith in causation, He has his reviews, his faith, about Zen Master by John Waihai, who was asked about, does an enlightened person, is an enlightened person free of causation, cause and effect?
[16:57]
And he said, no way, Jose. And yet, that doesn't mean that you're subject to it either. Anyway, then he quotes various people's understanding of this case. He never states his own. He just criticizes everybody else. So rather than going around saying what causation is, we should always just study it. Don't waste any time saying what it is. Just always keep studying, keep studying, keep studying. That's always the best way. Don't publish it. Just study it. Well, I think another way to do it, instead of saying what you think it is, let what you say be studied.
[17:59]
Rather than talk about your understanding of causation, even if you should happen to state your understanding of causation, primarily while you state your understanding of causation, let that be opportunities for study causation. In other words, don't take yourself too seriously. Don't take your understanding too seriously. You always have some understanding, you can't avoid that. You're always gonna have some understanding of causation. You're always gonna think, you're always gonna have some opinion about how it all works. You're always going to have a history of the universe up your sleeve. Your mind is very intelligent, put together things, so it will. But fundamentally, to be really thorough, you should always be studying cause and effect simultaneously with what you're up to. Yes.
[19:04]
Well, like right now, I'm leaning back on the chair. And I'm thinking of your pen. And I just gave her that, I just went through that. So a lot of things come together moment by moment in this life. Myriad circumstances are swirling all around me to try to understand part of all of it. It's already been involved. To turn away and not get involved and not pay attention to some part of it is also getting too involved. To develop a relationship where I can see that there's just myriad circumstances, and nothing more than that, is to be totally engaged in them and not getting stuck in them.
[20:23]
Observe it and observe it so completely that there's no kind of like trying to get a hold of it. Forget about trying to control it and direct it or influence it. Like I'm over here and it's over there. Forget about that. That's even really gross. And this is called peace. This is where real peace is. It's sitting in the middle of cause and effect. If we were in a position as a director, maybe a director or an office, still it's a good old circumstance that comes together as a director, but it's all happening in the end, and you're watching it. You're not controlled or relaxed. It's like there's a swirling tornado or snowstorm around you.
[21:42]
And moment by moment, you appear. And there's a clear thing in the middle of all these causes. And that clear thing is the appearance of a thing, of a feeling, or a thought, or a person. And that thing goes. It's actually not moving. But it can take the form of a director, or a painter, or a musician, or a teacher. When we were talking, I got this image. I read this book one time by this British novelist. I think his name's Charles Lewis?
[22:46]
Charles Thomas? Anyway, it was a book about his family who was in possession of a magical parole deck. And they had in their house a table. And on the table with the aid of these cards were all the parole putters. all the tarot things. It's almost like the cars stood up and were three-dimensional figures. You know the tarot? Queen of Cups, and what are some of the other ones? The pool. The pool. The hangman. The what? The hangman. The hangman. What? Tentacles. Tentacles. Tentacles. All the players were in a circle, in a mandala, on this table, in this room in the house that was, you know, in scones with heavy cloth.
[23:55]
And the center of this mandala was the pool. And everything was twirling around, except the pool was staying still. So my image of a creation or of a creative being is the one that's not doing anything at the middle of all this activity. And that's a snapshot. You're moving all around, and one in the middle is not moving. And then it's all taken away, and there's another snapshot. There is a role for this thing in the middle of causation. And this center of all causation is located everywhere. Every place is one of these centers of causation. And no place is farther. The universe is centered everywhere, and no place is farther from the center.
[24:59]
There's no circumference farther away from the center. Everywhere is centered. At that center, there's no motion. And at that center is where you can play any role. But if you get caught in the rope, one of the things that's sitting around that center is the name of the role. Or the name of that place. If there's anybody stuck in those names flying around that center, then the whole thing gets disturbed. Then you're not studying causation, you're caught by some cause you're pregnant. You're really stuck in it. When you've lost faith, you study of causation. But people have trouble trusting that because they think, well, we're going to be in control, or, you know, what will happen, or what will happen to me, or whatever, you know. How will I be responsible? But again, you're saying the way I choose to be responsible, the way I'm going to fulfill my responsibility in life is by studying causation rather than going from hand to mouth according to my ideas.
[26:15]
This is my idea of being good. Now this is my idea of being good. Now this is my idea of being good. This is my idea of the present. This is my idea of the present. This is my idea of the present. This is my idea of Buddhism. This is my idea of Buddhism. That way people really think that they're more secure, but actually you're just totally doing what you think. You're living in your idea of the present, your idea of Buddhism, your idea of good, your idea of responsibility. You're just simply possessed by your own thinking. But to live by faith and causation means you throw yourself into the center of the universe and you just sit there calmly. And then that's your action. And the miracle is somehow if you have a human body, you still brush your teeth, you still say hello, you remember your telephone number, and you act appropriately. I also got the image like, if you take a glass of water, I heard Gregor Baton said this, I never really did it myself, but if you take a glass of water and you send certain kinds of sound waves at it or something from one side, some kind of energy at it from one side, the water shakes.
[27:41]
If you send it from many sides at once, the water becomes still okay i heard this and then if you take a pen and you stick it in the water the water splashes up in the air That's the way you act if you have deep faith in causation. You're sitting there. If you feel causes coming from this direction, you get disturbed. If you feel causes coming from that direction, you get disturbed. In other words, if I think I'm caused by these people, I'm pushed around by them. If I think I'm caused by these people, I'm pushed around by them. And then I try to fight them or cooperate with them or please them. or please them, or control them.
[28:43]
But if I realize I'm caused by them, and [...] those, and that, all that, I can't move. I cannot move at all. I'm completely stuck. And I have absolutely no possibility of movement. I'm sitting completely still. And if you touch me with a pinprick, I will respond with tremendous energy. The water will splash up in the air. And that will be the director. Scream me! Don't do that! You know? And everyone listens carefully to the director because the director is in the middle of all those people. All those cameras, all those assistants, all those actors, all those producers. Sitting calmly at the middle of all that, not moving. And you touch that guy, and you get a big reaction. But if the director is concerned with part of the picture, then you keep pulling around.
[29:53]
And you touch him, you get a big reaction too. But it's not as dynamic and energetic as it would be if he wasn't moving. That's the big causation. that your greatest light, your greatest vitality, is to sit in the middle of all the causes. And you don't have to worry about being able to respond. You will respond with the appropriate response, not the response you think of. But it won't be you responding either. It will be the total engagement without being stuck that will respond. Total engagement and causation will respond. But that's actually what's happening all the time. Okay? That's why it's a matter of faith, because we cannot understand this. It's a matter of diving into the womb of Dwight. You know that expression?
[31:01]
The one we think of responding is one of the myriad, is some of the myriad circumstances that are swirling around who they are. The one who you think is responding is part of what you shouldn't get involved in. But you definitely could not ignore that either. To ignore the one that you think is responding is also getting stuck in the circumstances, dwelling in pain. To avoid it or to control it, either way is a side road. Yes. Yes. And I answered that, where do the words come from? They come from that place. But simultaneously, they come from up here. They come from this, and they come from thus. And so did they know.
[32:03]
That we're talking about before, the two simultaneous layers. We are living in an inconceivable layer, and we are living in a conceivable layer all the time. We are living in a busy layer, and we are living in an unbusy layer. So when you're living in a busy layer, you should remember the unbusy. But the unbusy is not just thought about the unbusy. The unbusy is not even that busy. But you should always remember the un-busy when you're busy. And the un-busy, the way to remember the un-busy from the busy point of view is to study causation. Or to be aware of everything swirling around you. Give it your complete attention as much as you can and all directions at once as much as you can and don't get involved. That's the busy point of view on not being busy. sitting peacefully in the middle of all causes and effects that are making your life here and disappear.
[33:26]
Are you Carol Scheintel? Tim Ward. Tim Ward. Kimberly Ward. Yes, Tom, here. How does this person operate under extreme circumstances? You know, somebody gets forested. I always think, you know, people go out there, it's incredible, you know, because they're in situations where they don't have the choice. They don't have the choice. What about before, there was foresters, like, you know, what food is it? How would they grasp these systems? The people who are tortured are very much into not meditating on cause and effect.
[34:37]
I suppose, my faith is that when you're meditating on cause and effect, when you really have faith that that's where to put your attention and that's how to conduct your life, you do not hurt anybody. You've never hurt other people, okay? Well, you didn't ask about them, but I wanted to mention something about them, okay? The person who's being tortured, the problem of them being tortured is, number one, that somebody's torturing them. That's very bad for the person who's doing a torture. And number two, the only problem for me would be is that they're not turning what we call torture into an opportunity to meditate on causation. But many people do turn those opportunities, do turn those situations around, and decide, listen, man, this is not a time to be under control. I mean, what's happening to me is pretty bad.
[35:40]
And if I try to control it, it's going to be a lot worse. So when pain is very intense, at that time, people oftentimes realize there's no need to talk about making this any worse. I don't need to make this the slightest bit worse. See, what we do, actually, is when bad things happen to us, we sometimes think we should make them worse. You notice that people do that? People get raped, and what do they think about doing it? They feel bad about getting raped. Right? Doesn't that make sense? You get raped, you should feel bad about it. It isn't bad enough that you got raped. You should feel miserable about it. That's what people do. Why do they do that? Because that's the habit we have. Rather than say, okay, I got raped, that's pretty bad. That's terrible. Now, I should decide to make something good at this.
[36:42]
No, no. They don't do that. They say, I'm raped, I'm punished, I'm beaten, therefore, I should dedicate my life to this event. And I should institutionalize it. and be miserable for the rest of my life. Since this happened to me, it's natural that I'll feel bad about it for the rest of my life. Rather than think something bad happened to me, there's only one thing that makes sense when something bad happens to me, and that is turn it into good. When something good happens, you might think, well, there, I would think, well, then you might think, well, maybe I shouldn't accept that it's good. Maybe I can turn it into something bad. But if something's already bad, isn't that bad enough? Well, apparently not. So if something bad is happening, the torturee, the one who's being tortured, has a very good chance of deciding that they're not going to make it any worse. That actually, the only thing they can do is change their attitude. So that is your only freedom.
[37:46]
No matter where you are, you're actually always trapped and being tortured unless you decide to turn it into something that you call beautiful. What this guy, Viktor Frankl? You know him? He wrote a book out about his concentration camp experiences. And there he was, I think, standing naked in the Polish countryside in the winter, having been starved to death, and so on. And there it was, a sunset. So what do people think? They think, well, there's a sunset. I should be miserable and not notice that it's beautiful, right? I should honor my misery and not notice that it's a beautiful sunset. Well, he didn't do that. He thought of his wife, who he didn't know if she was alive or not. And he thought of how much he loved her. He decided to think of how much he loved her. And he could see a beautiful sunset, even though he was in a situation where you're not supposed to see beautiful sunsets.
[38:49]
And you realize that in the end, the only thing you can do is decide what kind of attitude you're going to have about this life. Are you going to decide that this is beautiful or not? If you're tortured, I would think when you're tortured, then all the more you should decide this is beautiful. If it's a beautiful sunset, well, just sit back and say, oh, this is the crappy sunset. You know, this is a really low quality sunset. I can deny that, but this lemonade is shitty too. You can do that when you're, you know, no problem. This hammock, you know, this hammock really is badly constructed. You can indulge in that kind of stuff when you're really living in heaven. You can, right? But if you're being tortured, I would think that you wouldn't indulge in that kind of stuff. You wouldn't say, I'm being tortured plus this is a bad torture place. These people don't know how to do their work.
[39:52]
Yeah. No, I would think that if you were being tortured, you would say, hey, I've been wasting my whole life up till now. Finally, I'm going to appreciate the situation. I'm going to be grateful to these torturers. And you might think, well, then you probably won't you be sort of cooperating with these torturers? No. They'll probably, you know, they often will drop their torture equipment when they see that enlightened being under their knife. So again, the transformative power of this person who's sitting in the middle of causation is very great. So if you can turn around torture, That's only because you're completely accepted, completely engaged in it, and not getting involved in it. And deciding by that process, you naturally will make use of it to benefit yourself and others.
[40:55]
However, it is true that sometimes people are tortured and do not take opportunity like that. which is really unfortunate, because not only are they unfortunate, but they're not using the unfortunateness for the benefit. It's too bad. And if someone is being tortured or feels like they're being tortured, it's good to try to encourage them, turn it around. So like I say, I talk to people who have been brutalized by crazy people. And I, you know, I listen to it and I feel their pain, but then at a certain point I say, you know, just because you're raped doesn't mean you can't be happy. There's no law against being happy even though you've been raped. Why not allow yourself to be happy? What's the problem? And actually, I find that people who have been, the funny thing about human beings is when they're brutalized, when they're beaten, they sometimes think, they actually think,
[42:01]
that they cannot allow themselves to be happy. So at that time, I try to tell them, can you actually say to yourself, I allow you to be not just happy, I allow you to be deeply, completely top of the line happy. It's very hard to get people that have been brutalized to allow themselves to think that thought. But ultimately, in one sense, they have to because they really have to. It's so obvious that they have to. So I encourage that. And when they allow themselves to think that thought, they think that thought. And that's even when they're happy. Along these words, the perspective, I don't know if it's a Buddhist perspective, but I think there is a perspective that says that I am responsible for everything and I feel everything.
[43:15]
So does that mean that You know, I choose to label what the protesters are doing is bad or good. Is that the way that I believe everything and I'm responsible for everything? Or is it something else about that? I don't like that. Have you heard that perspective? Yeah, but I don't quite know what they're driving at. Well, I'm not quite sure what I'm driving at either. The perspective is that nothing out there is no real.
[44:17]
Everything I've created, and I'm responsible for everything. It's not like I'm here quiet and there's all these causes that are coming at me. It's like all of those causes out there I created. And I don't understand how that could be so and how it could also be that I'm just sitting here and all that's going on around me. Well, the reason I think I'm having trouble understanding is because you seem to be, you're sort of saying the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying you are quiet. You're very quiet. And your responsibility is your quietness. I mean, your ability to respond is your quietness. And your quietness comes realized through understanding how everything causes you. Yeah. And how you cause everything.
[45:19]
You don't uniquely cause everything. Everything causes everything. And your responsibility will be, your true responsibility will be manifested from your quietness, from your stillness. And your stillness is realized through understanding how you are dynamically caused by everything else. Right, you don't. And nothing uniquely causes you. Everything causes you. Everything that's not you causes you. Even all the parts of you are part of everything that causes you. How can I be 100% responsible for everything? I thought that that would include in the sense that I am everything. You are 100% responsible for everything, but you're not the only thing that's 100% responsible for everything. We're all 100% responsible for everything.
[46:20]
You're part of what's surrounding everything. You're part of what's surrounding that person, but so am I and so is everybody else but him. You're also part of what's surrounding that person. You're surrounding an innumerable center. But with all other beings you're surrounding, you're not uniquely responsible. You're not uniquely responsible, you are uniquely responsible for everything. So the way you're responsible for different things is also different. And also, all those things that you're uniquely responsible for are uniquely responsible for you. I don't know if I used uniquely right a few times there, but anyway. Your responsibility, however, is manifested through your stillness in the middle of all that. Through accepting your causal connections. Like the dynamically still water.
[47:35]
Your still water and your stillness allow you to respond very actively to the arrival of anything else. And sometimes actively is to do what is apparently nothing. You don't know, you don't. But I can't, you know, doesn't do me much good and it doesn't matter. But I don't really, but I'm wearing knee shoes and I feel like I'm in my time. And that's another whole thing talking about, which is kind of out here. But I don't feel concerned. I'm watching the traffic go by, standing on the street corner. I'm not in the traffic. I know it's there. I know this thing talking about that time, which is the time.
[48:39]
It isn't my idea of time, but it's present. And that's the sense of knowingness of present moment. The funny thing is, you know, that last week you were the hero of the class because you didn't understand. Last week... Now you're just an ordinary person who understands but doesn't realize. Last week you didn't understand but you were realizing the Bodhisattva way and you were scared, still a bit scared, because you didn't know what was happening. But you were inspiring everybody else in the class. by struggling in the dark, not knowing almost if you were going to survive the class. Many people were inspired by your confusion and your sense of loss of your ordinary world. You actually realized, to some extent, the inconceivable realm. You were living in a life beyond your usual light. This week, you understand better, which is kind of comfortable, but also you have some sense that you haven't really realized what you're understanding.
[49:44]
Last week, you were realizing But it was so dynamic that you didn't have your usual little handles and stuff. And you wondered, will I survive? Can I go on like this? Well, you did survive. So it's natural that you're taking a week off this week. Next week, maybe you'll be, you know, it'll be different again. I don't know. But anyway, the problem is that the person, the person, your usual identity, Well, you're not grasping it. It's just flying around and there's another cause. And there's also a habit that another thing that flies around with that is, hey, who's taking care of me? What's going to happen to me? And just to let that fly around, that question fly around you without sort of coddling it and saying, well, let's just sort of pretend like this isn't happening or something like that. Or even the voice that's going around with it also saying, you know, it'll be all right, dear.
[50:45]
You will survive. And not even getting involved in that. So the realization, unfortunately, happens more in that kind of place where we're kind of a little bit worried about what's going on. But what are we worried about? We're worried about the truth. And it's a good worry. We're worried about whether we're really sitting peacefully in the causal nexus, the center of all those connections, those causal connections. And you never really know if you are or not. But that type of unknowing, that type of worry, that type of feeling like you're not quite sure if you're there, that's kind of a good sign that you're probably doing the meditation on causation. Because when you're doing the meditation on causation, you're giving up control. You're giving up ordinary understanding.
[51:46]
And you don't have your usual security blankets. But also, that worry doesn't guarantee that you're on the track either. It's more like just kind of like a pretty good sign. And you inspire everyone else when it's there. Guess what? I can see you're lost again. That's good. And you get used to that. Just feel weird to be there. And I'm not walking out the street this way, I'll tell you that. That's okay. I'll get my steak together and I'll go outside. Yeah. And it's sometimes good if you can feel the transition back and forth, back and forth. And after some years, you may find that you can actually go out the door with it. But at first, you don't know if you can drive your car with that attitude. Like, how could you know what to do with the stop sign or something? You wonder. So then in that fear, you switch back.
[52:52]
But once you get through that fear, and you, what's on the other side of that fear is, or of that big question, is supposed to be the prize of understanding. It's how I see it. Yeah, there is a prize of understanding, but again, it's not your idea of understanding. It is understanding of, you know, it's an understanding of your forgotten self. It's understanding which reason works for everybody, not just for you. But in this particular case, like last week, you didn't feel like it was working for you, but it was working for everybody else in the class. And when you shift back to the other way, it seems to work for you, but doesn't necessarily work for other people. They just think you're another guy sort of operating a car fairly well.
[53:58]
Until, of course, somebody crosses you. And then you might not be such a nice driver anymore. But if you drive from the place where it works for other people, Then you're a really kind driver. Then it's really easy for you to let other people go first. Because when you're lost, you don't really know who should go first. You're not sure that you should go first. Or you're not sure you shouldn't go first. But in that case, greedy people will go ahead of you. And you're not sure you should get angry at people for cutting in front of you. And you're not sure that you shouldn't be upset. But the main point is, rather than think, well, I'm supposed to be not sure, you just keep meditating on causation. And that makes you not so sure of what's happening in terms of knowing.
[55:01]
But after a while, like Catherine was saying earlier, you develop a certainty more and more about your way. And your doubt starts to evaporate. Even though you don't know why, you get more confidence in your new way of being at the center of causation and continually studying causation rather than trying to manipulate things and improve things and bring things into your conceivable little world. Including not trying to get rid of the conceivable world. You get more comfortable with it. That's part of what formal practice is about. That's part of what studying is about. That's part of what a student-teacher relationship is about. That's part of what intensive meditation practice is about. You sometimes spend a long time doing that and you just sort of get used to it. And you get so used to it that you forget to switch back. And you find out, much to your surprise, that you can do things that you didn't think you could do.
[56:03]
Like you can drive a car from a totally different point of view. and not get in an accident. But sometimes if you're making the transition and you switch back and forth, you get scared along the interface and the fear causes an accident. That's why sometimes it's good if you don't drive when you're sort of first making the transition back and forth across the boundary between studying causation and trying to manipulate the world. the transition between being involved in the creative process and being involved in the attempt to control. Switching from trying to control to being aware of creation. At that transition, as you go back and forth across the border, so to speak, or changing the point of view along that edge, sometimes you get scared one way or the other. And then the fear makes it hard for you to walk up and down stairs and stuff.
[57:04]
So it may be good not to have too complicated a trick to play when you're in that state. True. So now you have a sense of it, but anyways, it's good that you're doing this. It's good. Are you ready for body damage emptiness? Yes. Your response to my actions to make this so that you associate a table great and a draw with me. I remember the hard experience that I just had a hard time accepting what you said. Isn't that controlling? And I wanted to make me a reality rather than studying my nation that you say that you should be happy. People just stay in their safety. I'm not sure Satan allow whatever... Oh, let me say it another way, okay? I don't mean to make my... I don't... You can choose me.
[58:07]
You can choose me. That's separate or bad. You just have to stay... See, I'm not saying... What I'm saying I deserve is that people are brutalized... And then it works. And then they decide to let the rest of their life be ruined, too. Why not just be brutalized... Huh? Why not just be brutalized and then... And then... and then admitting the wounds. Admitting the wounds and feeling how bad they are, but not feeling like in addition to that, you should never be able to recover. That the proper thing to do now would be to be ruined the rest of your life. Why do that part? Isn't it bad enough that you got wounded? Do you have to then also say, I can never be happy? I can never smile again. I can never enjoy nature again. I can never feel safe again. Do you have to do all that too? No. But people do that.
[59:11]
And there's something about when we do that when we're children too. We get spanked and then we feel bad about it too. And we think, well now I got spanked, I got hurt, plus I'm probably a bad person and don't deserve ever to be happy again. We do that. That second part, you choose to do that. That's a choice. You decide to make it worse beyond the time of the injury. I say, why don't you Notice that you're doing that, and if you're going to choose something, choose not exactly choose to be happy like you're going to make yourself happy, but choose to be happy like choose to want to be happy. Choose to allow yourself, say to yourself, it's okay with me if you're happy. Just say it to yourself. Shouldn't a person who's been raped be allowed to be happy? I think so. But the person who's brave sometimes won't say yes to that. They won't say, yes, I allow myself to be happy. It's sometimes hard for them to say, I actually feel okay about being happy. Now, skipping over the injury and denying the injury, I don't recommend that.
[60:16]
I'm talking about this other thing of saying, I've been injured and also I don't deserve ever to be happy again. Isn't it strange that people do that? But they do it. I've seen it. That part is not necessary. That part is a strange thing about the human sight, a strange habit we have. Yeah. Well, it's not only that you feel brutalized by that thing in itself, but also by the idea that something really bad has happened to you. I mean, you can allow that to, I think, brutalize you or make you suffer as well. in addition to having this expectation that, you know, this bad thing that's happened to you, and therefore being expected to respond to the way you should respond is by feeling bad. Right. And this is going to really upset people when I say this, but I'm going to say it anyway. When you're being raped or when you're being tortured, This woman actually experienced this. At the first phase of it, she actually, for a while, no, it wasn't this woman, it was another woman who talked about when she was a child.
[61:21]
This woman that I'm talking about was a grown woman, but another woman I heard about when she was a child, She said, I wasn't yet able to be Avalokiteshvara and give my body. I was too young to do that. But part of what I'm suggesting, I'm not saying this is true, but just a thought that occurs to me, is that the reason why it's so hard to recover from the brutalizing experiences is that we so intensely don't give ourselves to them during the time. We so intensely say, you are raping me, I'm not giving my body to you. I'm not letting you use my body for your own purposes. And we so intensely and so horribly don't allow it. That selfishness, that self-protectiveness, just is very difficult to turn around afterwards. It is, the horror of the rape is in direct proportion to the lack of giving yourself to the experience. It's sort of an extreme encounter with self-planning.
[62:25]
What? It's an extreme encounter with self-planning. Yes, you've got a crazy person and another person who just was not going to give in to a crazy person. Yes. I feel like I agree with you, but I feel a little scared about you, because Yes. I think really talk about what you tried to say. Being at that moment, you're talking about that person strapped on the table or the torture of both of you. Yeah. Honestly, I didn't hear the distance from laughing and observing. And so when you talk about it, it almost feels to be at the edge of... Yeah. And it's disturbing to talk about this. Yeah.
[63:29]
Right. I don't know if I can live with that. I think that I don't want to wait until I have the opportunity to convict or torture people. I deal with this. I think it's good to realize the person who's talking about it from the standpoint of never being involved in it. But I don't know if you need to wait until you have the opportunity to experience the other two. Well, . Those are just words that we need to express of why our mission is so kind of . But what you're saying is you can't talk about somebody else's .
[64:56]
What I feel is that it's not so much you're saying I've never been raped or that I've never been violated, but you don't feel my contact with it as I'm talking. Right. You want the ideas to be coming closer, especially with ideas like this, you want them closer to the experience. Yeah, I understand that. Yes. I found what you were saying about pain very interesting. But how do you deal with it? I mean, you could try to see nice things that were going on while you're being tortured. You could try to see nice things that are going on? Right. I mean, don't dwell on what a horrible time you're having.
[66:00]
while you're being tortured. I just think that pain's one of the central things of Buddhism. Trying to learn to deal with it. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit now. It's not so much that when you're being tortured you try to think of nice things like Hawaii or something. It's more like I'm in pain and And I'm probably not going to do something. I don't see it in the foreseeable future that I'm going to do something to end the pain. Like, for example, let's say I'm sitting cross-legged and I have some pain and I don't intend to. I'm going to be sitting this way for five or ten minutes more. And I don't intend to do something to stop the pain. I'm probably just going to sit. I probably have five or ten minutes more pain ahead of me. And it might even be a little worse during that time.
[67:04]
So one way to do it is to think of Hawaii or sex or something. That's kind of what some people do. Or go to sleep is nice, too. And dream of Hawaii. But what I'm suggesting is that if it basically looks like I'm going to be in pain for a while, why don't I enjoy it? Matter of fact, why don't I really enjoy it? Why don't I have a really good time in this situation? Now, if I want to uncross my legs and leave the room, that's fine too, which sometimes people do. But if I'm probably going to be in this situation for a while, well, let's make ourselves at home and settle down and enjoy it and learn that you can be really happy in a situation where ordinarily you wouldn't think that you can be happy. but not to try to make yourself happy, but simply by just enjoying it, by not even saying it's good, but just settle down in it, all the way to the bottom of the pain, all the way to the bottom of the experience.
[68:13]
And so we have this expression, Buddha's always turned the wheel of Dharma in the midst of fierce flames. So if you're going to be in flames for a while, why don't you just, kind of like Buddha, just sit right down there, and lax and study causation. What if you don't have a presence of mind to study causation? I mean, it's a very nice idea. What if you don't have a presence of mind? Presence of mind to study causation or truth. Well, first, the first thing you do is you settle with the pain. If you don't have the presence of mind to settle with the pain, you're probably not going to be able to study causation. Right. The first requirement of studying causation of cause and effect is that you settle into the experience that you're having.
[69:16]
Because studying cause and effect, in this case, is not studying cause and effect in an abstract way. It's studying cause and effect of your actual experience. And when people are in pleasurable situations, It's okay. You can also settle into the pleasure and totally be engaged in the pleasure and then study causation. But people oftentimes can just sit back and be half involved in the pleasure and still get by with it and then not be able to study causation there either. But pain... The thing about pain is that if you settle halfway into it, you're still unsettled. And it really bugs you that you're unsettled. And you're not at peace of mind. So then you're disturbed and in pain. Whereas if you're having a pleasurable experience, if you're disturbed and in pleasure, you don't mind that much. You can take it. For a long time. So it would be best if when we're in a pleasureful state, if we could be totally settled in that and study causation there, which you can do.
[70:27]
And it's highly recommended that when you're in a pleasureful state or a neutral state, you also completely settle with it. But people tend to be lazy sometimes when they're in pleasurable states, whereas in painful states, people If they're lazy, it makes their life so miserable that there is a strong encouragement there to, if someone says, you know, if you really want to have some peace of mind with your pain, completely settle with it. And if they do it, they get a big relief. Whereas the relief you get from settling into your pleasure is exactly the same relief that you get when you settle into your pain. It's the same relief, but the motivation isn't as strong. So anyway, in both cases, when you settle into what's happening, then you can really study causation because you have an actual concrete example of causation rather than an abstract example. And it's with the concrete examples that we want to study causation.
[71:32]
Because some people are interested in theoretically studying causation and some are not. But when it comes to an actual experience, everybody can benefit from studying causation. Both thinking types, abstract theoreticians can benefit from it, and people who aren't interested in that kind of thinking can benefit from it. Because it's so useful. It's so liberated. But you have to do the work of getting down to the bottom of the experience. Whatever the experience is, pain or pleasure, you have to get to the bottom of the experience before you can realize study of causation. Did you want to say something, Cheryl? Yes. What if you approached it by being really prepared for something difficult? And you were ready to deal with this.
[72:38]
Just like you're saying, you know, just as you've been totally willing to accept the pain. Yeah, that's right. You're not willing to maybe prevent the entire experience if you could confront You can have the level of comfort that it would take to deal with the pain while being raped. You could have certainly the level of courage or comfort to deal with not allowing it to happen to you if you were prepared. And I mean prepared. Whatever that takes. It means walking around with a knife in your purse or mace or whatever. And if that happened to you on the streets, you just point for your defense and put your life on the line and you go for that. And that's what you're determined to do. And if you were that focused and poking with that, I don't think many people would have a chance. Or just scream it and run it, or using a pocketbook or something. I mean, I'm not saying that there aren't...
[73:40]
and try to see, carry yourself with something that might happen to me in the internet. I don't know what things is meant, but I'm not meaning that. Think about running to battle with no clothes on. I could do that. You could? I'd be going to battle with no clothes on, yeah. I'd take my clothes off and go with the battle. His point is well taken. Men experience violence all the time. I grew up in a housing project very similar to the one down the street. I think there are times in which the distinction between men and women is perhaps not the most relevant. There is a more common basis in which it is the same, and that is violence between people. I think what the women are asking is that with the present bodies we have, We try to speak from something.
[74:41]
If we speak about something, we try to speak about it as though we were, you know, as though we were having the experience or that it was coming from experience. And so it may be that in order to talk about certain things, we have to be extremely careful And I was not, you know, when I was speaking, I was speaking from the point of view of talking to people who were raped, not so much from the point of view of being raped. Of experiencing people who have gone through traumas, and then I felt that they were continuing to torture themselves. I didn't mean to be speaking from the point of view of my own experience in this body. But even that topic I have to be very careful about when I talk about it, not so much that I don't have the right to talk about it because of my body, but rather that, in this case, we have to be very sensitive to, in some sense, this is, again, to not violate people in our way we're talking.
[75:55]
So although you may feel, rightly so, that you've been violated, being hurt in your life, still there's a way you can talk about that that can violate others or not. That's true. So I think the way I've been talking about it is some way it violated people. And, you know, that's part of what I think has happened. So it's not so much that I don't have a right to talk about it, but there's a way of talking about it that somehow, you know, might hurt other people. And I just think we have to be really careful about this somehow. That's the message we're getting. I think that's true, and it's good that that's brought out. I, we don't hear things the same. So when Hillary and I hear a person speaking, we hear different things.
[76:59]
And the point that she has a sense of frustration of hearing men speak of race and self-mobiliers, like sexist violence, is a permanent point. I was attracted to in which he was emphasizing the point of completely beaten experience is not necessarily a passive plan. It can be knowing that violence is potential in your life, being committed and willing in the beginning to be completely invested and completely involved, but in a way which stakes invest you in the process of protecting yourself. That means simply I have noticed that the quickest way to project properly that you are an easy target for, that you will not defend yourself. And even a person who is small and not capable of a lot of violence, who has the air of being willing to protect themselves, become the object of violence much less.
[78:08]
And that is my experience of being riddled with violence a lot. I simply did not want that to get lost in the same time. And that whether it applies someone or not, it's something that would have been the same results. I mean, there's something you should really talk about. If someone is trying to make it It would be a causation being a practice of explanation. I think the life of the Siddhartha, the Buddha says, I desire all four qualities of my life. Likewise, so have all others. Some of the works themselves together with others. So in this conversation that's going on in the last two minutes, if we carry knives and nays and guns in our purses and we react, we're expected to do this.
[79:27]
You get to sit in the middle. Yeah, well, that's it. You might not get attacked, and if you did, you might make it with that. And the other way, you just might just not. Make what? Make it, meaning you might get through it. But if you make it alive and through something else, what are you doing with what? Well, you did the right thing. I don't want to do something for you. I just want to support you in surviving a team and every year. I want you to make it with your good intentions. Don't answer and be safe for yourself. Would you regret it? I regret it. I don't bet. I don't even put it. That is something that you're saying. That is my point. And I think it addresses this point. Zen culture.
[80:29]
I mean, Zenese culture and Zen. And regarding the development of sourcemanship in Japan and in greater sources of communities that teachers and wanting to learn in this openness of mind, this non-attachment to . And he claims that in the state, what person will do is person who walks away at a sewer, the routine is a great non-attachment. When a person with violence comes against them, it is their own violence that destroys them. And the person per se is not there. They're not present. It is not their choice. It is not their acting. It's not something that they should have to be more aware of this procedure.
[81:33]
And of course, we are not likely, I cannot claim, did not claim, if I don't think, to have that safe. So how do we do the commission aside from being squarely? And I suggest not to be necessary enough to carry around the organization. or anything else, but in the appropriate circumstances . And this point that if people were willing to not always be difficult sometimes, that someone comes up three, once $5, you know, to be a villain, because it wasn't like five bucks, I think that's . If a person wants to rail break me away...
[82:21]
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