I could hear myself exhale, so I suppose you can hear me too. Can you hear me all right in the back? Today I'd like to do the same old thing again, and that is talk about what we call Zazen. Has everybody heard? Who hasn't heard that word before? Oh, wow. One person. Where are you? Let's see your face. So today I'm going to talk about the Zazen practice, which is what we call our practice here. And when I hear myself say zazen, I want to say right away that although in each of our hearts, or at least near around our hearts, is a sectarian person.

[01:23]

The tendency to be sectarian is alive in most Zen students. But zazen is not intended to be a sectarian practice. It's intended to be, we're pointing at what is the true way for each person in their uniqueness, the true way of freedom for each person, not some group that's telling you you should do it this way or that way. I'd like to tell you a story today, a very simple story. But I need to give you a lot of background so this simple story will have a chance to make sense. So the background I'd like to give you is that what seems to me, and I've heard from other people, what seems to me to be the fundamental human delusion...

[02:32]

is that I exist by myself separate from all of you. Fundamental human delusion that we are separate beings and that we have a life that we can live independent of all other life This is what I propose as a fundamental, if not the fundamental human delusion, certainly a fundamental human delusion. This is not a delusion which we have an option on, as far as I can tell. I never met anybody who doesn't get involved in this. Maybe there is such a person. I'm not criticizing us for being this way.

[03:37]

I think it's just part of our, it's our situation. To expect it to be otherwise is a secondary human delusion. An artifact of the first. This thing I refer to as Zazen, or just sitting we propose as the antidote to this fundamental affliction. And I say the antidote and I mean the but not in a sectarian sense but in other words I mean by Zazen whatever turns us around and releases us from this belief that we're separate from all life. Whatever makes us open our eyes to the fact that we're really closely related to all life, and that is our life.

[04:48]

Whatever opens our eyes to that, whatever practice helps that in any way, even a little bit helps it, I will call that zazen. Whatever brings that to complete release, I call that the practice of zazen. That's what I'd like to talk about. In the early days of Zen practice in China, before they thought of the neat word Zazen, they used to refer to their meditation practice as, in English, they didn't say it in English, but the English translation of what they called their practice was, the concentration... or focusing on the oneness of all life. The early Zen people called their practice that. This is a practice which is transmitted to them from India. It's a regular Indian Buddhist meditation to focus on the oneness of all life, to focus on that which we all share.

[06:02]

and to focus on how we are all sharing life together, to become aware of and deeply immerse ourselves in our interconnectedness. This is Zazen. And this is an antidote to our usual focus Our usual focus is that we're separate from other people. And we carry that focus, I propose to you, we carry that focus with us all the time. We have no trouble focusing on us, on me. We don't seem to need to bring ourselves back to that. It comes naturally. We walk into a room, I walk into the room. I don't have to say, now remember, you're walking into the room. It's easy to remember that. It comes up moment after moment.

[07:12]

So that's the basic situation. And Dogen Zenji says that to come forward To come forward into situations like that or to carry yourself into situations and experience them, that's delusion. And actually, to be technical, he says, to carry yourself forward and experience all things, that is, quotes, delusion. Delusion. That's what we call delusion. And the quotes I interpret as meaning, there isn't really such a thing as delusion, but there is the appearance of delusion. Because there really is no such situation as me going into situations, coming forth and experiencing things.

[08:18]

So I don't want to make this delusion into something real. We'll never find this. But as far as delusion goes, that's the basic definition. to hold on to this independent self and bring this independent self to situations and experience them. Now, when all things come forth and realize the self, that's called awakening. When everything comes forth and confirms you, that's awakening. But when you go forth and experience things, that's delusion. Zazen is to, first of all, admit and notice that I go forward into situations carrying this self and then I experience things from the point of view of this person over here experiencing that.

[09:26]

to admit that and then to notice right at that same place that all things are coming forward and realizing this life. To focus in on this human tendency, this human delusion, and then to watch it turn into human awakening. That kind of awareness is the practice of Zazen. Awareness, completely being aware of our human tendency to do this deluded approach of separate existence coming to experience, and then to sit there and watch that until it turns and shows us that actually everything is coming forth to support our life, and that is our self. that is oneself.

[10:43]

All things come forward and confirm oneself. Oneself is being confirmed and realized all over the place in each of our bodies and minds. So zazen, then, is not something that you can do by yourself. You can't do it. Zazen is when all things come forward and realize you. Or when all things come forward and are realized through you. And I'd like to give you a little historical background on this story which I'm leading up to. The first ancestor in our lineage in China, the first ancestor in our lineage in this world, in this present historical world, is Shakyamuni Buddha.

[12:08]

The first ancestor in the lineage of Zen in China is named Bodhidharma. an Indian monk who went to China and transmitted the Buddhist teaching. He went to southern China and he somehow got an audience with the Emperor Wu of the southern Liang Dynasty. This emperor was already trying to practice the Buddha way and had established lots of monasteries in China and supported thousands of male and female monks to practice. When he met Bodhidharma, he asked Bodhidharma to tell him about how much merit he was going to receive for all this good work he did.

[13:24]

And Bodhidharma chose to say, you're not getting any merit for this. Why did Bodhidharma say that? The emperor did not kick him out for saying that, but asked him another question. He said, what is the highest meaning of the holy truths? And Bodhidharma said, vast emptiness, no holy. Vast emptiness means all life is interconnected. vast interconnectedness, no holy, no independent holiness in this world.

[14:25]

Holiness is the interdependence of all life. And there's no place you can find it more than another place. Bodhidharma didn't say that. All Bodhidharma said was vast emptiness, no holy, The emperor said, Who is this facing me? Bodhidharma said, I don't know. The emperor did not understand and Bodhidharma left the court, crossed over the Yangtze River went to a place called Small Forest and sat facing the wall for nine years. After Bodhidharma left, the emperor asked his court Buddhist teacher, a monk named Bhaujir, who was also a magician,

[15:47]

and was considered to be an avatar of the enlightening being of universal compassion. So he asked the great monk about what happened between him and Bodhidharma. And the avatar... And the avatar... Did something change? And the avatar... of infinite compassion said to the emperor, well, that guy was like me. He's an avatar of Avalokiteshvara. He is one of these beings who is listening to the cries of every being in the universe. The emperor said, oh, well, let's get him to come back. but they couldn't get him to return.

[16:51]

How was it that talking this way to the emperor was the expression of universal compassion? What was so compassionate about telling the emperor that all his good works had no merit? Of course they had merit, incredible merit. which is exemplified by the fact that he got to meet Bodhidharma and had quite a nice talk with him. These people who make donations, even small ones, not to mention enormous donations, attract sages. So there is merit in making these donations. There is merit in building monasteries and supporting practitioners of the way. Why did the bodhisattva of infinite compassion say no merit? What was he trying to do for the emperor, I wonder? Well, I say I wonder, but I have an idea, too.

[18:03]

I think he was trying to help the emperor overcome his idea of his independent existence, of even the independent existence of the acts of building monasteries and getting married for it. Although I have some questions for Bodhidharma and I wish I could meet him face to face, I trust his way. That's why I practice Zen, because I like his style. He faced the wall for nine years. What he said to the emperor was an expression of boundless compassion. How was facing the wall for nine years an expression of boundless compassion? How is our practice here in this temple of facing the wall an expression of compassion?

[19:13]

To examine how that might be the case, I'll tell you the story which I've been leading up to. The introduction to this story, which is the 23rd example in the book of Serenity, and it's called, Ludzu Faces the Wall. The introduction says, Bodhidharma's nine years is called wall gazing. How can you sweep away the traces and obliterate the tracks? The case. Whenever Luzo saw a monk coming, he would immediately face the wall. That's all. Whenever a monk would come to see this teacher and ask about

[20:27]

What is the way of compassion? What is Buddha's teaching of compassion? The guy would turn around and face the wall. Put yourself in this monk's shoes and think about that. How would you feel? You know the story about Bodhidharma now, right? They all knew that story. They go to see this teacher. They say, what is the Buddha way? And he turns around and faces the wall. How would you feel? What would be going on? For me, there's something kind of sad about this. It's sad that Bodhidharma facing the wall nine years wasn't enough, that Lut Su had to do it too, and that we have to do it.

[21:33]

Also, I'm kind of sad because in some ways if people ask me about what Buddhism is, I kind of would like to just turn around and face the wall too. But in a way I can't because I don't want to be a copycat. It was bad enough that Ludzu did it. And yet there's something about the originality and spontaneity of Zen that has to do with copying, with the paradox between That we just copy the ancestors and that we must do something completely new. Otherwise, the way is dead. When you hear that a noted Zen teacher in Tang Dynasty, China, did that, and also that in the collection of Zen stories, this collection called the Book of Serenity, which has 100 stories, that they chose to mention this story.

[23:19]

What is this pointing to? What heart is this pointing to, this wall-gazing example? Some of you I know, maybe all of you, practice wall-gazing. You don't have to face the wall. You can also look at a floor. And when you're practicing, what is the point of this practice? What are we here for doing this?

[24:27]

This way of practice some people might call rather discreet or kind of like a sparing kind of teaching. What's the great way of compassion? He just turns around and faces the wall. Another contemporary and actually Dharma brother of Ludzu was the famous Nanjuan, the guy who shocked all of Buddhist history by holding up the cat and saying, can somebody say a good word?

[25:40]

And if you can't, I'll cut this cat. And no one spoke and he cut the cat. This is Nanchuan. When Nanchuan heard about Lutzu's practice of facing the wall whenever a monk came, he said, I usually tell the monks when they come to realize mastery before the empty aeon and to understand before Buddhas appear in the world. The empty aeon is before time, or the beginning of time is the empty aeon. He would tell the monks to realize mastery of the way before the beginning of time, before Buddhas appear in the world.

[26:41]

Buddhas appear in the world in response to human delusion. because human beings think of themselves as separate, Buddhas appear. Nantuan said, I tell them to realize the way before the Buddhas even come, before the beginning of time. But Ludzu, he will go on that way until never, Was Non-Chuan criticizing Ludzu or was Non-Chuan praising Ludzu? This has been debated for about 1300 years. Was he saying, Ludzu is too discreet, isn't giving people enough?

[27:55]

Or is he saying, Ludzu is really where it's at and I can't restrain myself from giving more than that? I point people to before time to realize freedom from separation. The sense of time which we usually walk around with is born with this sense of separation. Before time arises is the way we usually deal with it as something that's flowing along. There is somebody who hasn't yet split the world in two. So non-juan would point the monks to that place before this mind of separation even arises. Later another two monks had a conversation about this.

[29:07]

Their names were ... I know some people have trouble with these Chinese names, I'm sorry. I was too busy to look them up and translate them into English. Anyway, one's name was Bao Fu. Bao Fu was talking to Chongqing. And he said, in the case of Lunzu, where was he being discreet? Where was he being sparing? such that Nanchuan had to talk about him in that way. And Chongqing responded, retreating into oneself, conceding to others,

[30:28]

There's not one such person in 10,000. Facing the wall for nine years, facing the wall for one second, these people, these monks, are looking into the center of this, trying to ascertain the heart of these yogis. What was discreet about this war-gazing that caused Nanchuan to speak this way, Bao Fu asked. And Chongqing said, retreating, go ahead and cough. retreating into oneself, conceding to others.

[31:37]

This is almost impossible. Or maybe even it's, maybe actually it's impossible for anybody to do. I did have time to look up the Chinese characters for this expression. Receding can also mean yielding, and conceding could also mean yielding. So you could also translate this as yielding to oneself, yielding to others. This is impossible. In this world of delusion where we feel separate from other people, the meditation called wall gazing is to somehow yield to yourself and yield to others.

[32:48]

Not even and, yielding to oneself, yielding to others. We don't seem to have much trouble either yielding to ourselves and forgetting about others, or forgetting about ourselves and yielding to others. This kind of splitting and role-playing we do a lot. But to do both at the same time, we have a lot of trouble. We really can't do it. Wall gazing is pointing at this situation where we do this, where we enact inner connectedness, where we enact inner dependence.

[33:50]

This is what Zazen is, and this is what Zazen points to. in this place where we yield to ourselves, in other words, even assert ourselves, we also recognize others, or you could even say assert others. And it is in this place that we call, this place is called Buddha's Compassion. This is not my compassion. This is not your compassion. This is Buddha's compassion and there's no possessiveness there. It's the compassion of awakening. It's compassion which has no objects. It is a warm-heartedness which has no objects and doesn't go in any direction.

[35:02]

It's on both sides of the duality. So we're being encouraged to yield to ourselves, to be who we are, to retreat into our state and simultaneously concede to, surrender to the other. How can you do this? This is wall gazing. Wall gazing. I read a description of Proust one time, Michel Proust.

[36:15]

Michel? Marcel, right? Is it Marcel? Marcel Proust. I heard a description of him, that he demonstrated the coincidence of weakness and genius. This is what wall-gazing is pointing to, the coincidence of weakness and genius, or softness and genius. Genius in the sense of, genius is the tutelary god of your home. Genius is your your own truth, completely yielded to and expressed. And at the same time, a weakness which is too weak.

[37:18]

Not too weak, but a weakness or a softness which surrenders to all others. The coincidence of those two, a personal strength to the level of genius with weakness. Bruce demonstrated. Walter Benjamin said. He also said that after the self-satisfied inwardness of romanticism, after the self-satisfied inwardness of 19th century romanticism, yielding to yourself yielding to your views to your feelings so delicious so warm so nice at home Wagner the British Empire this is self-satisfied inwardness oh so lovely

[38:29]

After this, Christ comes along, determined not to give the least credence to the internal sirens. Sirens in the sense of those ladies on the beach calling us. Giving credence to this inner state, giving credence to my position is going too far. Yielding to it is enough. Recognizing it is enough. Being aware of it is enough. Just be aware. And without the slightest metaphysical interest, which means metaphysical interest in your state means that you believe in it, that you think it's something more than just a whim, an illusion.

[39:43]

But this is very difficult to be aware of our inner sirens who are saying, you know, it could be that what you think is true. Why don't you believe it? Why don't you hold to your position? And the outer sirens which say, Why didn't you believe me? Why didn't you accept my position? How do you hear both of them? To approach experience without the slightest tendency to console yourself. So we've been studying this story about Luzi facing the wall and talking about this somehow this difficult to realize balance between recognizing yourself or asserting yourself and recognizing others and developing the capacity to withstand this paradox, to live with this paradox.

[41:54]

And someone said, well, you know, some people can just wipe you out. Some people can just attack you and hurt you. If you yield to them, it would be really dangerous. I recognize the truth of that. But also, inside, it's the same way. I can really be hurt and attacked by my own opinions, by what I think. It's very dangerous what I think, to me first of all and then to everybody around me." So this person was kind of saying, you know, how can you practice this conceding or yielding to others? Isn't it too dangerous? And I would say, isn't it dangerous to concede and yield to yourself?

[43:01]

Well, yes, it is. This is the dangerous world we live in, where we're doing one or the other of those. Whether it's from the inside or it's from the outside, the question is how to relate to what you're experiencing. what you're experiencing is potentially dangerous, not in itself, but by the way I handle it. So I've told you this before, but again, I thought of this word, this word kushala, which means wholesome. But it also means, actually originally it means skillful.

[44:04]

So how can we skillfully respond or appropriately respond to whatever we're aware of in terms of our own position or in terms of what other people say to us or what other people ask of us or what other people do to us or what other animals do to us or what the sky or the wind or the sun does to us? What's the skillful, appropriate way to relate to this? to this internal and external onslaught? Well, it's called wall gazing. Yield to both at the same time. This word kushala, which means skillful, comes from the word for a kind of grass, called kusa grass, which the Buddha recommended to the yogis to make their meditation cushions out of.

[45:21]

He said, make your meditation cushions, your meditation mats, out of kusa grass. It's really good grass. Now, I don't know why he recommended that. Maybe they had a lot of it around. Maybe the environmental impact was less using that than using kapok. I don't know. Anyway, he recommended it. Now, kusa grass, it turns out, is like pompous grass or some other kinds of grass. It's a wide, broad-leafed grass, and it has sharp edges. It comes in big, long tall grass, and it comes in big, wide-leafed variety, and it has sharp edges, and if you pick it, if you collect it unskillfully, you will cut your hands. So you must... If you don't touch the grass, you won't have anything to sit on.

[46:30]

You won't have a meditation cushion. But if you grab the grass too tightly or unskillfully, you'll cut your hand. If I turn away from all of you, if I turn away from these dangerous experiences which happen when I see another person, I won't have a place to sit. If I turn away from my own inner experiences, I won't have a place to sit and face the wall. If I grab my experiences of people outside me and my inner experiences, I will get cut.

[47:34]

At least that way I will learn by getting cut and I've got a piece of blood-soaked grass to sit on. And eventually I will learn. I hope. So please collect the grass and make a place to sit. But when you collect it, try not to Turn away from the experience. Try to be there for the experience. And also, don't go too far. Don't grab too tightly. Don't console yourself while you're having the experience. Don't make it into something metaphysical. Don't put anything on top of it. Just receive yield to what's happening outside, receive and yield to what's happening inside, then you'll have a place to sit and do this practice.

[48:51]

And this process of collecting the experience, so to speak, and handling it properly, is the antidote to this delusion that we're separate from other beings. Celebrating this practice, a monk said, in plainness there's flavor. There's a flavor in this plain practice of just sitting facing the wall. It's the flavor of freedom. So I wonder right now, how am I collecting grasp for my meditation place?

[50:53]

How am I handling what's coming in from you? Am I yielding to you? Am I recognizing you? And am I going into myself, retreating into myself, and yielding to myself? Am I doing them both at the same time? If I can feel them both at the same time, it feels like A huge net, although it's easy to see the net going out this way, it's hard for me to feel it going back that way, because I can't see behind myself. But a huge net, and all of you are kind of carrying me.

[51:59]

All of you are kind of buoying me up and keeping me alive at this place. If I have to live this life all by myself, it's going to be kind of hard. If I have to all by myself come forward into my experience, But if I feel, if I can turn it the other way of, yes, I am over here, but all of you are also making me alive. So this is really just one big net here. If I have to live my life, then I'm going to try to control all of you.

[53:17]

If I have to do it by myself, I want to control all of you and make sure you don't give me too much or too little. But if I realize all of you support me and are nothing but my connection to all of you, I don't know what to say. Except maybe, though I've been blue, now I'm walking through fields of flowers. Tears may glisten, but still I listen for hours and hours. I'm just a fool again. doing what I did again, singing a song. I don't know how to sing the song.

[54:36]

I don't know what the song should be. It's an old song and it's a new song. One problem with all this is that there haven't been any laughs lately.

[55:43]

Thank you. I really didn't mean this to be heavy. It's not. It's also not to run away from heaviness. I heard that the average child laughs 200 times a day, the average baby. And the average adult laughs 12. Have you got to 12 yet? This path is precious, but it's massively foolish.

[56:54]

It appears massively foolish. It's really precious, but it looks foolish. These people sitting here facing the wall looks foolish. It's really precious, though. It's really funny. And although I haven't told many good jokes this morning, in this meditation hall we've actually been having quite a problem lately. People have been laughing more than is traditional. And they've been doing this laughing, I understand they've been doing it when the senior practitioners are not in the room. Is that true? Yeah. I don't know why that is. Maybe the older monks here would tell them to be quiet or would just convey a sense of seriousness that would dampen their hysteria.

[58:03]

When I hear about this laughter that's been going on, in one sense I'm embarrassed. I'm embarrassed that, for example, what if some people came to visit from another Zen center and found out that the monks in here were just sitting in here giggling? Doesn't sound so compassionate. Could they be listening to all the cries in the world and still be giggling? probably they're just listening to the people in the next, you know, in the room, right? So I think, well, geez, is that a really serious Zen center when the monks are just sitting in here giggling? But, of course, I would also feel terrible if the monks never laughed and took this whole thing seriously. It is serious. It is serious. This business about having compassion for all beings is a serious matter. But the catch is, if you take it seriously, it goes sick.

[59:11]

Right? So it is serious. I'm not saying it's not serious. And if I did say it was not serious, then that would be another serious thing to say. I'm not saying that. You should stop listening to me. Yes. Good morning. Tomorrow I'm creating a recognition event for a couple of hundred people in which I want them to be consoled. So could you say a little more about holding experience without... I guess what you're saying is don't expect to be consoled, but what about creating things so that you want to send that message?

[60:26]

Good question. What I'm proposing to you is that to approach your experience without... consoling yourself is real consolation. That because we put things on what we're experiencing inwardly and outwardly, the consolation of the natural rising of events becomes blocked. Because we don't trust what's happening, and put some consolation on it, then the inherently consoling aspect of things is blocked. The way things really are is really consoling. But because we don't trust that, we don't get it. So this is the way you take care of yourself. Now, if you take care of yourself that way, you'll be in a much better position to console others.

[61:31]

And so if they are not yet ready to approach experience without messing around with it, or I would say if they're not yet ready to admit how they do mess around with their experience and thereby be relieved from that interference, then you can console them in whatever way they want, you know, or whatever way you think is wholesome. But ultimately what what I'm proposing is to show them how to not do anything about what's happening. But in order to get close to people sometimes, you need to maybe do something to console them. Like some people will not accept help from somebody unless they have an MD. So you might go to school and get an MD so that you can get close to some people. And then once you're close to them, then try to show them that you know really they don't have to do anything about what's happening and that will liberate them from what's happening expressing appreciation and gratitude to people is not necessarily and therefore expressing appreciation and gratitude often times when a person feels in pain they feel consoled to feel appreciated

[63:02]

If a person feels like a failure, it's nice if somebody comes up and says, you're really doing a good job. That's nice. It relaxes their own self-criticism and their own evaluation of themselves as failures. And I think I will be better able to console those who feel like failures if I don't console my own experience, if I don't put any metaphysics or constructions on top of what's happening. But in practical… Practically speaking, though, we do do that, we do put constructions on what we experience a lot. So part of what we have to do is admit that we're doing that. We have to admit that we are into consolation in terms of how we approach experience. And that admission will open up an unconsoling, unmetaphysical approach.

[64:14]

And when I say not metaphysical, I also don't mean physical. So I'm pointing to a way which is free of physics and metaphysics. But to be free of physics and metaphysics, you have to study physics and metaphysics. Because in fact we're involved in both. When you stand up, you're studying physics. When you sit down, you're studying physics. When you walk, you're studying physics. When you have dinner, you're studying physics. But also, we are metaphysical creatures. We're putting metaphysics on top of everything we're doing too, which burdens us. But there's a way which, in fact, you can never do metaphysics without physics or physics without metaphysics because we are metaphysical. We are not metaphysical beings, but we are metaphysicians. Do you know what I mean? Well, we have metaphysical concepts which we carry, like we think things exist or don't exist. We have some existential stance on things, like we think there really are unicorns or there aren't.

[65:18]

You know? Or we think there are good people or there aren't. Or those are the good people and those are not the good people. These are metaphysical. We're metaphysicians. We're not metaphysical beings. We're actually, the way we are, is free of physics and metaphysics. That's what we really are. In other words, I say we're radiant beings. And there's a radiance which transcends physics and metaphysics, which transcends consoling and not consoling. But in fact, we're into both physics and metaphysics, and you can't do one without the other. I propose that to you for discussion. Yes? I have a question about Zen practice, something you said this morning. Excuse me one second. Could some people open some of those windows over here? It's kind of hot in here, isn't it? Or isn't it? Yes. Something you said this morning was helpful to me, and then now it creates a lot of questions when I look down.

[66:26]

Any practice which helps us realize our interconnectedness is Zen practice. And I find myself coming here every Sunday, people here, and getting a great deal from the sitting here. And I never sit facing the wall. And when I hear announcements about a day sitting, or a week sitting, or one year sitting, I almost literally shudder at the thought. I started to think about what you said about being going for what brings you to a purpose and what you're connecting with. In my life, there's two things. There's gardening and walking in wild places. And at times, without seeking it, I experience feelings of loss of self and interconnectedness. And so I guess my question to you is, is that right then practice, or is that an avoidance of doing what for me would be the most difficult thing, which would be to look at the wall?

[67:39]

Well, aside from the word my, you know, Yeah, it is Zen practice, that's Zen practice, yeah. And at that time, I don't think you're avoiding facing the wall. Doesn't seem to me from your description. However, when you see a wall, at that time, you might experience some pain. Namely, you might suddenly become aware of your separation And at that time you might say, well, I don't want to be here anymore. I want to go someplace else where I don't have to be aware of this. So facing the wall, literally looking at a wall, might point you to the area where you're not experiencing your interconnectedness. So any place where you experience your interconnectedness, I say, congratulations. That's what life's about.

[68:44]

That is life. That's vast emptiness and no holy. Okay? And Zen practice in some way is, in its traditional presentation, is to sort of say, is there any place where you don't realize that? Let's find out the places where you don't. Not to negate any places where you do. As a matter of fact, continue to... You can sit here if you want to. continue to enjoy as much as possible all the places where you now feel this great nourishment from your awareness of interconnectedness. But Zen practice in some extent is to say, is there some situations you don't do that in? And for a lot of us sitting still, the process of sitting still will uproot or uncover

[69:45]

The areas where we are not yet willing to experience that it's actually me over there. So there's certain people, for example, that we feel embarrassed. We'd feel embarrassed to feel that they were us. Not that. I'm not like that. So Zen practice will eventually put you up face to face with that person and will say to you, how can you make an exception here? And that will happen in nine years of war gazing. So Bodhidharma did that, I guess. He faced all those things which we don't yet feel connected to. Yes? Well, do you think that facing the wall is similar to facing your own eyelids?

[70:51]

That's the kind of wall, I mean, because that's what I feel like I stare at, is I bring the other wall, and I look at the audience, and that's the wall of my eyelids. Do you think it's a similar meditation to looking at the wall? Is there a big difference? Well, again, you know, we say facing the wall, But it doesn't really mean looking at something. It means making your mind like a wall. And walls don't think that they're separate from other beings. That's what wall gazing is. Wall gazing is not feeling separate. So it's not like necessarily a wall there. But as a ritual, we face a wall. You know, we demonstrate that form so we can, you know, there's certain advantages of the ritual, so we... Yeah, well, so the meditation that Buddha was doing under the bow tree, even though there wasn't a wall in front of him, as far as we know, there might have been, I don't know, but...

[72:04]

even though they don't say there was a wall in front of him while he was sitting by the tree, or maybe he was sitting in the tree and facing the tree. I don't know. I wasn't there. Unless it was me. But anyway, what we call what he was doing there, that's what we call wall-gazing. And I propose to you that his mind was like a wall. In other words, he was so stupid, he was such a fool, he couldn't think that there was something other than him Doesn't it occur to most people at some point, I think when I was very young, that suddenly it occurred to me that I didn't create myself. And it's sort of a shocking thought all of a sudden to realize I didn't make myself. My mother didn't make me. You know, that sort of realization that you're here and you don't know how and what's sustaining it. Yeah, that's wall-gazing. I guess I'm asking, I asked one time a group of people, don't you dream of flying? And I was so surprised to find out that they didn't dream of flying.

[73:07]

And I'm asking, don't most people at some point come to their mind like, hey, when did all this stuff get here? How did I get here? Yeah. That occurred to people occasionally in their lives. Did it ever occur to any of you, how did I get here? Raise your hands, please. but this is kind of an unusual group too so I think I was just saying to somebody a part of part of what was what do you call it consoling about this last election is that people in San Francisco finally felt like they weren't the only people in the country that thought a certain way you should you know This is the first time I ever voted for anybody that won. You have talked about the inflow balancing the outflow.

[74:08]

And is that the same thing as yielding to yourself and yielding to others? There has to be a balance? Yes. And again, in a sense, this is impossible. Nobody can do this. I can't do this. Because you do it, we have to do it together. So zazen, what we mean by zazen, or what we mean by focusing on interconnectedness, is not something that I can do. And it's also something that can't leave me out. And yet there is such a mind which is this way. But I can't make it happen, you can't make it happen, but it's happening right now. This mind is arising right now. It's just that you can't grab it. You can't make it an object. You can't make it come. But it's arising right now. It does not depend on circumstances.

[75:10]

It does not depend on conditions. If a thousand Buddhas come in the room, it doesn't happen anymore. If a thousand demons come in the room, it doesn't happen any less. It's arising right now, this mind. And if we combine our human situation, our conditions of being the way we are, combine our conditions with this mind that's arising right now, And that is, as Dogen says, a freely offered hand. One single hand held out in the midst of all sentient beings is a combination of our conditions with this mind that's arising right now, this mind of interconnectedness. So, the mind of interconnectedness doesn't depend on me or you, but We are the opportunity, we are the conditions which in conjunction with this mind which is arising, this mind of interdependence, which nobody owns and nobody can get away from, that mind in combination with our conditions makes our life, makes our conditions a freely offered hand in the midst of this world of suffering.

[76:33]

It always seems to me when I listen to this as if as far as I can go is to know that I can't do this. That that's as far as I can go. And then if anything is going to happen, it happens beyond that. And I can't know that. And I have a feeling in these discussions that I and others keep wanting to grab on to how And the only how is that I can't. That's not the only how, there's also how. How is also that. There's a how before there's a grabbing. Can you feel the how before there's a grabbing?

[77:41]

That's what Nanchuan's pointing to as before the empty aeon. That's before Buddhas appear in the world, is how. How, then you try to get a hold of how. Then there's clinging. As soon as there's clinging, you're clinging to something you think is there. You're a metaphysician. As soon as there's clinging, there's delusion. Then Buddhas come to save you from the delusion. But before you cling, before you make something outside yourself, before you make something outside yourself and say that it exists independently of you and you independently of that, and before you start grabbing and pushing away, before that there's a how. There is a how, which is a question. There is a how, which is a way. That mind is arising all the time before delusion. How is not even can't. Kant is an instruction to people who are now grasping delusion, to say, don't think that your grasping is going to be the way.

[78:49]

However, the condition of being a person who is grasping that condition in conjunction with this great mind of interconnectedness, which is how, that connect those two together, make your life, convert your life into the hand of compassion. which doesn't have some agenda about how it's going to work. So you know that other Zen story where the one monk asked the other one, what is... what are the... you know, a thousand eyes and a thousand hands of universal compassion for. You know, the statue of universal compassion often has a thousand hands, and in each hand there's an eye. What are the thousand eyes and thousand hands of infinite compassion for? And he says, it's like reaching for a pillow in the middle of the night, you know, when you reach for a pillow.

[79:52]

It's like that. Reaching for that pillow is universal compassion. It's a combination of you, a dreaming person, your circumstances, with this mind of infinite compassion. That's reaching for the pillow. That's how compassion works. It doesn't say, I am a compassionate one, not helping you, a suffering one. It's like there's suffering people and there's a mind of enlightenment and there's reaching out. Or not. Sometimes it's taking that in back. Like this. Now, when the deluded person thinks about this and tries to make it into a thing, then, if I make that into a thing, well, go ahead. But before you did that, it was just So you can't, you can't do it, but it is happening through you.

[80:56]

Buddhist compassion is not something you can do, but Buddhist compassion reaches you. And you can allow it or not. If you allow it, the way you allow it is to just be this conditioned being. And it's there, it's already there with you. And it's there to meet your delusion. Walk forth from there. Walk forth from all sentient beings coming to confirm you. If I feel confirmed by some of you, then that's delusion. Or certainly if I feel confirmed just by me. But when I am just the arrival of all you, when I act from there... Realized. Realized. How would you not be? By imagining that you exist prior to that, and that you go to sit... that all the things that you experience, or anything you experience, but any or all the things you experience, the point of view that you come forward and have experiences, that's the way we are habitually thinking.

[82:13]

Okay? So right in that situation of me coming forth and experiencing, Right there, I can turn around and say, all things are coming forth, and then there's me. And then what? There doesn't need to be a then what anymore. Prior to that, there's a, we're living in the realm of and then what. Okay? I'm here, and now what? I'm here, and now let's have, I'm here, and let's have an experience. What's the next one? Did I do a good job? Now what? This is the world of before and after. This is the world after time starts. Like, and then what? And now this, and then what? There is such a world. And if you do things in that world, you have to please admit that there's cause and effect and consequences of everything you do. Fine. I'm not saying to ignore that world or deny that world. I'm pointing to a world that's not involved in before and after.

[83:17]

Between being linear and whole? Yes, that's the difference, right. I was wondering, how can something that's so true be so unobvious to us? And then I was thinking about how we're so full of... Just by being a creature, we have constant... Delusions, for instance, like when something's far away, it seems small. And it isn't small. But to us, it's small. It's the same way to us. We're separate, or we exist, but it's just as illusionary as thinking that things are small because they're far away. It's just the way we are made to think, but it's really not the truth. And that's what I was thinking when I was meditating today, is that the whole purpose of this religion or any religion or whatever is to get the perspective of the truth. I mean, to try to see the truth, which is not obvious at all, even though there's nothing else but it.

[84:35]

Somehow it's not obvious to us. So we have to learn how to live in this paradox. And so a lot about what Zen practices is to develop our ability to live with paradox. You're trying to talk about these things that are very hard to talk about because we're so infused with the delusion. It's very hard to talk about the truth outside of that way we have our perspective. Yeah, especially since it's not outside of it. Well, our perspectives, it's outside of our... a certain type of perspective that we usually cling to. Our usual perspective is a perspective which makes things outside of it. So our usual perspective hears about this and makes that outside too. Even though this is a perspective which is so stupid it can't think of anything so sophisticated as making something outside itself. Yeah. And that mind which can't imagine something outside itself or can't imagine that we're separate from each other, that mind is happening right now.

[85:53]

It doesn't stand up and say, hey, look at me, notice I'm happening. It just is actually what's happening. And then there's also a mind which thinks something else could be happening. I'm over here and what's happening is over there. Buddhism is over there, I'd like to get it. Truth is over there. I'd like to realize it. And the stupid one does not say you shouldn't be that way. What is it that allows some people's minds to grasp that and others not? I mean, I think I have a very intelligent friend of mine who I've had this discussion with. Practice. I think it's so obvious that you are a skin bag, that's it, that's your perspective, all you want to know is your own experience, blah, blah, blah, you know. And it was very intelligent, and I don't know how, you know, to... Practice. Which is meditation. Which is meditation. Which is called wall-gazing, but it doesn't mean there has to be a wall there.

[86:59]

It means every person you see, when you see them, turn around. What? Every person you see, turn around. So, if I see you out there, what does it mean to turn around? Turns around means to see myself. That person is yourself, but they're not another point of self. Everything, when you're on the path, everything you meet is your real body. Your true body is everything you run into when you're on the path. When you're not on the path, everything you run into is not your body, it's other bodies. This is a sign you're not on the path when you see other things. So if you do see other things, okay, fine, admit it and then turn around. Okay, I think you're an object. Okay, I admit it. Now, turn around. And now suddenly, well, it's incidental that I feel really good remembering that you're actually who I really am.

[88:04]

It's encouraging that it feels good and I feel relieved. That's when I switch from feeling like I'm over here, trying to do I don't know what, and you're over there. That seems like the only way to stop drowsiness, too, because if I think you're over there, then I have to, well, don't get farther away, come here, you know, to pull at you. But once you realize it's all yours and it's all you, you don't have to grapple. And now that, then everybody comes and helps you. Everything comes and confirms you. then, when you make this switch. Not even you make the switch, but when it turns. It turns. The spiritual work turns in the subtle round mouth. There's a pivot here. It's called the subtle round mouth, the pivot. And spiritual work turns in that pivot. It doesn't necessarily feel good. It doesn't necessarily feel good. I don't even like it. Distraction.

[89:14]

I feel myself a lot of times when I do football, going up. when I then again see like politics or different things that I should be doing, what I should be doing, and that's what I'm doing. I'm somewhere like the pole, and then I come off the pole, and then I'm back on the pole again, I think. But I'm on the pole and I just do not want to look at the other side, and then I'm there, and then I come back to the pole. Is there a... power and the ability to say, I'm going to not see this other world. Can I be distracted and just stay on this pole? I mean, is that practice? Just practice? Just stay on that pole? What do you suggest that a person trying to just stay on the pole when

[90:22]

Why don't you give me a practical example? A friend of mine just came out of brain surgery and she's drawing an immense amount of energy from me. And at the same time in about a month I'm going to be going to Asia That's going to be a, for me to go there at this point, it's going to be a big thing. I'm trying to save my strength in that. But at the same time, I want to give to her everything that I can give. And just feel myself being absolutely... I have different feelings of resentment for her needing that much. But at the same time, I want to give to her, and I want to give to myself, and giving to her.

[91:27]

And yet I'm also trying to store energy. I just want to, I want to, I mean, I'm doing it. I guess in a sense, the answer's already there. I was asking you for a way to help me with the distraction, but I guess that just by the faith that I have that I will pop through. I was just throwing it out for a while. It's very hard sometimes. Very painful. It's hard to collect the kusa grass. Could you speak some more about the lessons that can be learned from having no seat and also from having a bloody seat of Kusagrath?

[92:29]

Well, one of the signs of having no seat and the lesson you can learn from it is that You know, when things happen to you, you feel like defensive and you feel controlling. You want to eliminate difficulty and run away from difficulty. And you feel scared and trying to, you know, limit chaos and so on. So that will be the lesson you'll learn from that. Besides the fact that you'll be really miserable and terrified. And you might even get angry at people or fight with people who are trying to introduce some complexity into your life. That's a sign of

[93:38]

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