In stirring up disturbance, people lost their eyes, and Dogen could not look to them. The plum blossom opens afresh on the same branch as last year. Thank you. The plum blossom opens afresh on the same branch as last year. So Dogen liked plum blossoms, so did his teacher. He talked about plum blossoms a lot. Plum blossoms are white and they open in the middle of winter. So plum blossoms falling are white on white. But it's not just true of plums actually. A flower, a new flower in spring blooms on the same branch as the year before. a new flower, the first flower that blooms, blooms on a withered branch, or a branch that has been withered.

[01:07]

So a lot of Zen imagery is about stillness and life, and life bursting forth from stillness. So we sit still, silent, upright, and yet something creative for sports. There was a teacher in China named Shishuang whose monks sat so still what they called in Zen, the dead stump hall. So the point of our sitting is not to be dead automatons, not to be.

[02:11]

Zen zombies. The point of our sitting is to become pregnant with Buddhas. The character that you're asking about, it means Not that character, that character means womb. But there's another character that means womb, which is the zo and jizo, the zo and shobokenzo. Sometimes it's translated as storehouse. But it's really interesting because it means womb and it also means embryo, both. Yeah, it means both womb and embryo. It's usually translated as womb, but it also means embryo. So when we sit, sometimes the world is described as the womb of Buddhas. A Buddha field is described as the womb of Buddhas, but also it's the embryo coming out of the womb of Buddhas. So the Buddha is the embryo and the Buddha is the womb.

[03:13]

So a Buddha field is created, is given birth to by a Buddha when a Buddha is born. So there's this interplay in that character between the womb and the embryo. While we're on this 213, I love this thing about, well, talking about the old bandit Gautama, but he afflicted the human and heavenly realms with confusion, stirring up disturbance. People lost their eyes and so could not look for them. I like that image. So it's true that it's difficult to see your own eyeball. even when you have them. Yeah.

[04:24]

Okay. So So body and mind dropped off as the beginning of our effort, but when a temple pillar becomes pregnant, how do we discern their absence? In a way, this is like saying, again, I'm just playing with this. I'm not telling you what this means. I'm not trying to explain this to you. I'm just playing with this, and we can do this together, too. But in a way, body and mind dropped off. Okay, that's the beginning. Now, you could say that body and mind dropped off as this special state that you're only going to get to after years of practice. Or you can say that in that first arousing of the vow, there is already this body and mind dropped off. The first time he sets us in, there is, not that you necessarily knew or realized or understood it, but there is the body and mind dropped off of that first aroused vow, that first impulse towards sitting.

[05:34]

But when a temple pillar becomes pregnant, how do we discern their absence? So there are all kinds of temple pillars. four or five here. And this is certainly talking about that. But there are also temple pillars, you know, who sit down on Zafus and who get up and, you know, lead service and help with ringing the bells or hitting the Han or serve during Sashin or, you know, anyway. They might become pregnant too. They might become pregnant with Buddha nature. It might start to shine during Sashin. You might see some of the other temple pillars sitting in the Zenda with you and how they are pregnant with Buddha nature. How do we discern the absence of body and mind when they're dropped off? How do we discern it in ourself? How do we discern it in others? Tell me your name again.

[06:37]

Shona. Shona, yeah, was telling me about body and mind dropped off over lunch and how When there's body and mind dropped off, there's no self. So for Shonan, she showed me how body and mind dropped off, how she discerns it. There's no sense of self. We're not caught by self. So that's how she discerns it in yourself. Can anybody else say how you might discern body and mind dropped off in yourself or in somebody else? And is that body dropped off or mind dropped off? Or both? Okay, but it might be both. Or one, or the other.

[07:38]

Oh, no, I like the answer. Yeah. I was going to say light radiating from my eyes. Light radiating from your eyes? So is that your own or somebody else's body and mind? Seeing it in someone else? Is there anyone for whom light doesn't radiate from their eyes? It doesn't. I don't know, I'm asking. Yeah, probably so. We can walk down the streets and some people, there is light and some people are dark. That's true. No separation. We're in this together. Good. So if it's a feeling of no separation, then it's the body and mind dropped off of yourself and the other. Because if there was some separation, there would

[08:41]

not be body and mind dropped off in either the self or the other from which there is no separation. Well, I'll leave you to consider this first sentence more. There's more on this than on this question. We just talked about the first sentence. Body and mind dropped off as the beginning of our effort, but when a temple pillar becomes pregnant, how do we discern their absence? And then he gives some more information. The thick cloud matting spread over the mountain peaks is still. And above the heights, the round moon shines in all directions. So I've also experienced what Rick was describing of being up on a mountaintop and seeing the clouds below. The thick cloud matting. spread over the peaks. And it's still, and it's quiet, and everything is covered. And there's nothing, really nothing to turn off.

[09:45]

Above the heights, the round moon shines in all directions. So it does, when you're up that high, where you can see for miles, the moon is everywhere. It's very bright. I once climbed to the top of a peak in Colorado from somewhere I was camped out near Boulder. But it was very high up, and I could see the cones of mist rising out of the valleys as the sun started to come up. And there was big bald eagles flying, soaring. Oh, that kind of feeling. So the moon stands alone, eminent, not relying on anything. the lofty Buddha body does not fall into various kinds. So this is one side. We were talking about the dialectic of light and dark and the dialectic of the ultimate and the phenomenal. So the lofty Buddha body, the ultimate Buddha, does not fall into various kinds.

[10:52]

So falling into various kinds is an image of bodhisattva entering into phenomenal world, entering into the diversity of beings. So this is this Tension between oneness and difference, between sameness and difference, oneness and many. Therefore, an ancient worthy said, the sage empties out his heart. The 10,000 things are nothing other than my own production. Only a sage can understand the 10,000 things and make them into oneself. So this is a saying by Sun Tzu, who was a very great early Chinese Buddhist commentator and a very great writer. And this particular saying was an inspiration to Shuto or Senkito that led to his writing the Harmony of Differences, sameness, the Sandokan. So this tension here, when, so the sage empties out his heart, maybe that's like dropping body and mind.

[12:01]

When the sage empties her heart. Now maybe that's different from becoming pregnant. Becoming pregnant is maybe the other side of dropping body and mind. But the 10,000 things are nothing other than my own production. We give birth to the whole 10,000 things. It doesn't mean that the whole world is just your idea of what it is. But still, we create together this whole world. Only a sage can understand the 10,000 things and make them into oneself. It seems to me that the sage emptying out his heart sounds a little bit to me like giving birth. Right there. Incredible effort. Yeah, I think we should all try to get up and stretch.

[13:03]

But we can keep talking. You don't have to get up. You can keep sitting if you want. So this tension between self and other, 10,000 things in oneself. Do we create the world? Do we give birth to the world? Does the world give birth to us? Anyway, this is what he's getting at in this dharma hall discourse. Then he says, at this very moment, how is it? So in the stance of self and other, of creation, of being pregnant or being empty, how is it? After a pause, Dogen said, the moon moves following the boat. with the ocean vast.

[14:10]

Is it the moon moving or the boat moving? Now if you're in the boat, it looks like the moon's following you, right? But the ocean's vast. Spring turns following the sun. The sunflower's red. So in the spring, the flowers or color. Comments, questions, responses. It doesn't seem to be a lot of tension in those statements. There's a lot of ease, isn't there? It's kind of a letting go. Oh, it seems to me. Yeah, it seems to me that way, too. So actually, this is a real interesting one. I think there's a lot of tension in the first sentence. Even if we're willing to accept the temple pillars becoming pregnant, still, that first sentence is, what's going on here?

[15:22]

It's not easy. Yeah, good. The moon moves following the boat, the ocean is vast. This kind of feeling of release or space there. Is it like, what arises when body and mind drop off is also body and mind? Ah! Really? Oh good. That's liberating. Did you hear her? Could you say it again, please? What arises when body and mind drop off is also body and mind, your own body and mind, so... Could you say it again? What arises when body and mind drop off, you know, when you're sitting and you're waking up, is what that same quality is what body and mind are compelled to. I like it better the first time you said it, just when body and mind drops off but arises there's also body and mind. Very good.

[16:29]

Anybody else? So body and mind dropped off is not phlebotomy or suicide. So there's a sense of release. Or there's also the sense of giving birth to a new body and mind. So when body and mind drops off, and there's also body and mind, is that the same body and mind or a different body and mind? It's not. Very good. I asked, when body and mind drops off and there's also body and mind. Is the new body and mind the same or different?" And she said, as what? As what? Other comments?

[17:35]

There is somewhere in here something about a shadowless tree, but I don't know if we'll get to that. Yeah, so the moon follows the moon. So that's like the image of the moon in the dew drop. No matter how large the moon, the dew drop is, it's still, whether it's the size of the dew drop or the size of the ocean, there's still the reflection of the moon. The moon doesn't hurt the water and the water doesn't hurt the moon. But this is something different when there's a boat, when you're in a boat, floating on the surface of the water. The moon is there. So this is really a, this Dharma Haltas, of course, this is one of the later ones. It's one of the very last ones. Well, one of the later ones. Anyway, this is a really wonderful kind of description of the practice of body and mind dropped off, and this relationship of self and other.

[19:04]

So is it the body and mind of self or other that is dropped off? Only a sage can understand the 10,000 things and make them into herself. Yes? I would say both, because your sense of self and other are trapped in the body and mind. OK. Yeah. I don't know how important it is. Everything I first saw, the images, to me don't seem like thick cloud matting, going to the boat, spring, following the sun, sunflowers, aren't concerned with discerning them. But also... Are not concerned... Not concerned with discerning. Not concerned with discerning, right. But also they don't... I don't think that they impose body and mind on themselves or other things.

[20:11]

Right, right, right, right, good. Yeah, so these are not images that in any way impose body and mind. They're kind of just there, and it's just the clouds, maps spread over the peaks. There's a way in which they're not imposing self and other either. And yet there's this thing that he drops in this quote from Sun Tzu, which is about this interplay of self and other. So, As the sun turns, we get spring. So there's a connection between the sun and the sunflowers, right? That's why he's talking about, he picks sunflowers rather than petunias or whatever. They also turn colors in the spring, but the sunflowers actually are like the tide following the moon. What, something hotter,

[21:20]

When you said that 10,000 things are nothing other than my own production, that how I see the world and how I separate myself from other things is my production. That's how I create the 10,000 things. Say it again. that how I, in my day-to-day living, you know, I'm constantly separating, you know, I'm here and you're there, and that's my own production. You know, I see that, or I now recognize that that's my own creation, this separation. Good, yeah. We create the discernment of the 10,000 things, we create the discernment of the difference between self and other and the difference between things. That's right. Maybe there is a difference between the two of you.

[22:29]

And yet, the difference that I see is the difference I see. One of you has glasses, one of you doesn't. One of you has dark hair, one of you has light. you know, and I can do that with myself and others too. So we, yes, yeah, that's interesting. And then only a sage can understand the 10,000 things and make them into one cell. So then again, realizing that it is just a production and I think one aspect of dropping off body and mind is dropping off the separations that we create. Or seeing the connections. that we are. Right, so all of that is in this Dharamhala discourse about the pregnant temple pillars. So there's still lots more that's pregnant in there.

[23:31]

It's an interesting juxtaposition between what you said earlier, which is we create, we create this together. which has kind of the absolute about it, and that we also create the discernment of everything that's different. So it's like the moon ends up with the silent weakness of children. I think that's what he's saying about the moon following the boat, like what's moving and what's not, like they're both moving. Right. Good. Well, we could spend more time on this. But I actually want to get to one more. And I think we should take a little break first. We're all drooping a little bit. So let's take a 5 or 10 minute break. And then we'll, oh, let's work on some traditional koans with Dogen. And look at how Dogen works with them.

[24:33]

And then come back. He doesn't mention that, but that's one capping phrase you could use. Well, that's good. That was a very magical statement. Do you want to hear about the empty sky aging, or do you want to hear about the... We could do, we could warm up with, let's warm up with A Place of Great Intimacy. We could also do Dogen punching out the empty sky. You probably know that one. Let's warm up with Saoshun on page 217.

[25:40]

or number 217, on page whatever. Good, so you can tell me about it. I can remember, Yunmin asks Arshan, why don't we know that there is a place of great intimacy? Saoshan said, just because it is greatly intimate, we do not know it is there. Suppose this were Ehe, and someone asked me, why don't we know that there is a place of great intimacy? Thank you. I would just hit her face with my whisk and ask, is this knowing or not knowing? If she tried to answer, I would hit her again with a whisk. Any other comments? Is it as simple as it sounds?

[26:47]

Does it sound simple? Yeah. Tell me about it. How does it feel? Is it greatly intimate? Yes. How does it look? Good. So it's like trying to see your own eyeballs if it's that close. But how do we discern it?

[27:53]

Who wants to know? I said, how do you discern it? And they said, who wants to know? Good, good. Anything else about this one? How is a whisk different from a hand, Steph? How is a whisk different from a hand?

[29:04]

I don't think it's important. Which isn't important, the whisk or the hand? I don't think neither is important, I guess. She doesn't like your question. It's not an important, it's not your question. Okay. The whisk is very fluffy. It's very soft. It's like the difference between a pillow and a rock. Maybe. As I experience this one, it's about that Dogen's answer is like getting sunshine out of the intellectual state of intimacy, intimate experience with him.

[30:09]

He's engaging in a really intimate experience Yes, good. Good. It's just more performance art. He's demonstrating this place of great intimacy. I think it's more like he's, to me, it's more like he's acting it out or demonstrating. So, I don't know, you know, sometimes, some koans, it is a matter of refuting or even taking a position.

[31:19]

But other times it's just, how do we, share, you know, this dharma. How do we pass it along to each other? What's that? It's very intimate. Yeah, so, you know, even if it wouldn't hurt as much as a slap on the face, it's, you know, it's got maybe more texture, you know. Now, did he hit, do you think he hit would hit this person with the whisk like this or like... Well, we each have our own doggone. Okay, let's do 294 because somebody was asking me about mistakes. And we've been talking about dropping off body and mind, so we may as well keep doing it.

[32:40]

Dropping off body and mind does not prevent us from recognizing the original source. That's also pretty funny. The Dharma is not apart from arising and extinction, and yet we still mistakenly have discussions about its falseness or truth. Therefore, it is said, seeing Buddha in every bit of dust does not denigrate Buddha, Hearing the sutras in every bit of earth, we are not apart from the sutras. Do you want to attain intimate prediction on vulture peak? Large and small stones nod their heads and come." After a pause, Dogen said, after 30 years, you will not be able to make mistakes when bringing this forth. This one's kind of funny. This one's tricky, too. Dropping off body and mind does not prevent us from recognizing the original source.

[33:42]

So... Normally you wouldn't think that anyway. What would it be like to think that dropping off body and mind would... What are the implications of the idea that Dogen is refuting. Let's just imagine that we actually had this idea that Dogen is refuting. The dropping off body and mind would prevent us from recognizing the original source. What would that be like? How would that look? The idea that comes up for me is this idea of no eyes, no ears, no nose. How would one discern It can't be discerned. If you held tightly to that, it would prevent you... If you held tightly... To dropping off body and mind? It would prevent you from... From recognizing the original source? Yes. Okay.

[34:48]

So, he's actually telling us something about what dropping off body and mind isn't. So what are some of the other things that dropping off body and mind would be that would prevent us? So that's good. So dropping off body and mind, to think that dropping off body and mind would be having no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, or that dropping off body and mind would be not being able to discern, apparently those are not dropping off body and mind. Those are incorrect ideas of dropping off body and mind according to what Dogen is sharing with us here. I think he's giving us the OK to drop off body and mind. Good. Good. And what is this original source, anyway? Well, I don't know what the original source is. Good. Thank you. So what else can you say about it? I'm told to drop off body and mind to recognize it, and yet I spin and try to use, try to grab, try to box it.

[35:54]

So you try to drop off body and mind in order to recognize the original source? I try to... No. I misuse the instruction to drop off body and mind. How do you do that? By not dropping off, by clinging to body and mind. So the instruction is dropped. So there's a way of dropping off body and mind which prevents us from dropping off body and mind. Well, he's kind of saying here that you can drop off body and mind and still recognize the original source. What's this business about recognizing the original source? Any feelings about that?

[36:57]

Even if you don't know what it means, do you recognize it? Ah, almost. I have some idea of that time that existed, that the original source was actually something solid that you could recognize, and that self is something solid, and you dropped it off. I think you just said about four really interesting things. including between the lines, like dropping off body and mind, you might think that happened before the original source, so that he's saying that dropping off body and mind doesn't necessarily take us to before, wouldn't prevent us from seeing the original source or from seeing

[38:24]

our face before our parents were born. And it's kind of interesting and humorous because usually we would think that dropping off body and mind would help us in these things. But here he's saying it's okay, you can drop off body and mind, you'll still be able to recognize the original source. It could be a point. There's different words for source. So the gen in Dogen means source, means origin if you want. Well, there's other kinds of sources. My name, Gen, Tai Gen. Again, it means source of a spring in the mountains. So there's a poem by a great Chinese Zen poet named Wang Wei who said, in my middle years, I've grown fond of the way.

[39:38]

Do you know this? In my middle years, I've grown fond of the way. I head out from my hut on South Mountain and look for the sights that only I can see. I follow the stream. back to the source and sit and wait for the time when clouds arise. Perhaps I meet a person of the woods. We talk and laugh and I forget to go home." So there's this practice, which is another name for our practice of zazen, which is following the stream back to the source. It's actually a practice that you can do. and get back to the point where thoughts arise, where feelings arise, where sounds and smells arise. And it takes a while, you know. It may take a few days of associating. Who knows? It could take a few minutes of a period anyway. But it's actually a practice that you can do.

[40:40]

It's also something you can do physically. So when I was at Tassajara, I tried to get to the source of one of the Side street, I mean. And there are people who can do that. So is it the Mississippi River that comes through? So somewhere there's a source of that river. Has anyone seen it? Yeah, I saw it last weekend. Last weekend? Wow. She followed the stream back to the source. Anyway, the instruction, the Zazen instruction is to follow the stream back to the source, then sit and wait. So some of you have experience with this. Sit and wait. for the time when clouds arise. So recognizing this original source, so my name means, Taigen means ultimate source, but anyway, dropping off body and mind does not prevent us from recognizing the original source. It's kind of Dogen's funny way maybe of saying dropping off body and mind might help you recognize the original source.

[41:41]

But anyway, there are various ways to practice with recognizing the original source. including the one I described of just sitting and watching and waiting and being present at that place where our experience arises, not where the world is created. That's also where the world is created, but it's our own place of the arising of the stream of thoughts, feelings, and so forth. Which raises the question of what would be an entrance. Good, that's another good question. It raises the question of what would be a hindrance. What would prevent us from recognizing the original source? Anybody got something to nominate? Ignorance. What? The poisons. The poisons. I don't know. I wonder, could one be angry and recognize the original source? one might recognize the original source of the arising of the feeling of anger.

[42:45]

In the recognition, would there be anger? Maybe not. Anyway, all of these are, all of, this is how to, this is how to, not to study Dogen or try to understand Dogen, this is how to play with Dogen. Ask questions, ask Dogen questions. Ask yourself questions that Dogen is asking you. This is, this is, It's not about explaining Dogon. I can't explain Dogon. Showaku Okamura, who I translated this with, and has done lots of translations and has been studying Dogon for even longer than I have, at the end wanted to say, the one thing he wanted to say in the introduction to the book is that he doesn't understand Dogon at all. So this is not about understanding what Dogon is saying, but can you turn it? And you're starting to do that, all of you. So when he says dropping off body and mind does not prevent us from recognizing the original source, so one way to turn it is, well, what would stop us from recognizing the original source?

[43:51]

Or what kinds of ideas of dropping off body and mind might you think would prevent from recognizing the original source. So dropping off body and mind of people in the lobotomy's end school, for example, that would prevent them from recognizing the original source. This is why it's not advised. So there are all kinds of misunderstandings of dropping off body and mind that might prevent you, but that's not what Dogon is talking about. Good. So the next... This, I think, is very helpful, this dharma hall discourse. The dharma is not apart from arising and extinction. Even the Dharma comes and goes, arises and vanishes. And yet, we still mistakenly have discussions about its falseness or truth. Have you ever had such discussions? Have you ever heard people talking about the truth or falseness of various statements in relationship to the Dharma?

[44:54]

Rick has heard of some. So, that's kind of funny. And what does that have to do with the Dharma not being apart from arising and extinction? That's what came up for me. What's the anyet part? Uh-huh. So, anybody? What's the anyet? Why anyet? Why would you think that if the Dharma was apart from arising and extinction, that we would no longer have discussions about falseness or truth. Okay. So, one thing that's clear here is he doesn't exactly say this, but also having discussions about falseness or truth seems like a mistake.

[46:15]

He doesn't quite say that, but one might feel that reading this. It's a mistake to have discussions about falseness or truth. It doesn't mean there's not falseness or truth. It doesn't mean that we don't have discernment. It doesn't mean that there isn't arising and extinction. Anyway, I don't know. These are all questions. What would be the helpfulness? In what situations would it be helpful to try to evaluate falseness and truth? These are real practical questions. Well, that example you just mentioned, you mentioned it several times today about the Zen and the Bodhisattva. You know, that's a, that's a piece of Dharma teaching that is mistaken, false. So it's not like that. Okay.

[47:17]

To think you can practice by just accepting things as they are. That's a popular one. Anyway, these are, these are... Anyway, just that, that just sort of Oh, you know somebody who might have that problem? Therefore it is said, therefore it is said, seeing Buddha in every bit of dust does not denigrate Buddhas. Why would you think that seeing Buddha in every dust did denigrate Buddhas? Anybody? What would that be like? So seeing Buddha in every dust would denigrate Buddhists. So you all can see how somebody might think that. If you're trying to eliminate all dust from the face of the earth, Anyway, he says that seeing Buddha in every bit of dust does not denigrate Buddhists.

[48:38]

Hearing the sutras in every bit of earth, we are not apart from the sutras. Well, that one seems pretty obvious. I mean, how could you think that if you heard the sutras in every bit of dirt, every bit of earth, that we would be apart? That's sort of obvious that if we heard the sutras everywhere. Oh, I see myself as different from the Earth. You do? Oh, I'm sorry. Satan. Isn't there a bumper sticker that says, the Earth does not belong to people, people belong to the Earth? I'm sure there is. And if there isn't one, there should be one. It doesn't belong to us, it belongs to our children. Well, but also, we're part of, I mean, well, I don't know, there's a theory that we came from other planets.

[49:44]

So, I don't know, maybe we're not part of the Earth. But, you know, bracketing that. I read someplace that the Earth could do without us. It may have to. Sooner than we would want. So it might be okay, you know. I mean, this is my own feeling in these times, that it might be okay if there were no more people on the planet, but then who would there be to appreciate Mozart? So I don't know. We have to do something, I think. I agree that the third sentence is a comment on the second sentence, which I really I think I heard you talking about the dharma, as in the dharma itself is not apart from arising and extinction. But I hear that more as saying, the dharma is not apart from things that arise and things that continue, which are dusts, which are close to earth.

[50:57]

So the truth of falsity is implying that it's not dust, it's not close to earth because they're too whatever, This is where it really is, but this is like this. Oh, good. Thank you. That's very helpful. Do you understand what he said? So let me see if I... Or just kind of like the opposite. It's like defining Buddha or Dharma as... in some abstract way or some permanent thing. It is disparaging. Right, right. Yes, so the dharma is not apart from things that arise and are extinguished. Ordinary world. The dharma is not somewhere else. Actually, I like your way of reading it better than mine. Thank you. I think you're right. And yet we still have mistaken discussions about falseness or truth.

[52:03]

Hearing the sutras in every bit of earth, we are not apart from the sutras. Seeing Buddha in every bit of dust does not denigrate Buddha. Do you want to attain intimate prediction on Vulture Peak? Wenny, do you want that? Yes. I bet you do. You, too, are going to be a Buddha. In a future Buddha world. Not so far from here, but maybe a long time from here. So Lisa got her intimate prediction on Vulture Peak. Large and small stones nod their heads and come. So, what about this? When he says, after a pause, after 30 years you will not be able to make mistakes when bringing this forth. What is he referring to?

[53:07]

I'm asking you. I don't know. I don't have an answer. I didn't understand. I was not so clear about this when we translated. That's what he says, but what does he mean by that? My take on it is, after 30 years just means when you're well settled in this, a mistake is a dominant event. And so a mistake is just a mistake for us. It's not a mistake at all. That's one very reasonable interpretation. I think we considered that as one of the main possibilities. Yeah. Did you understand? Can you say it again? When you're really settled in this, you'll see Buddha in every bit of dust, and not denigrate Buddha, including those bits of dust that are mistakes. Failures and complete catastrophes. Are those mistakes and failures and even complete catastrophes separate from dropping off body and mind?

[54:14]

No. Do those catastrophes recognize the original source? They are blossoming from the original source. Oh, good. Lovely. Say more. Very good, very good. So, very good. Well, anyway, you have all demonstrated this playful mistake of studying Dogen. It's actually, were we supposed to stop at four? Anybody who has to leave at four because you have something better to do is welcome to do that, it's later than four.

[55:21]

But I'm willing to talk about Speak softly, speak softly, number 200. But let's pause and let people who want to leave go, and then the rest of us can talk about... All the Buddhas come from this sutra. What is this sutra? Is that 200? It is number 200, yes. And those who are leaving, bye-bye. Thank you. It's lovely. to get a little more volume. Oh, am I speaking too softly? Well, I think you're speaking all right. It's just we're making it a little bit louder. OK.

[56:27]

Is this one you did? I'm sure we did, because I think we're above the microphone. Right? Yeah, we're above. So you guys can tell me about this one. Which one are we on? 200. Who's been telling you about them all day? OK, this one's interesting because, well, it's interesting. But also, it's interesting because it shows a couple of ways in which Dogen uses to comment on koans. Well, we've already hit this one where he supposed someone asked me if I was in that story, which he does at the end. But then this is sort of structured like the Bluklift record in a way.

[57:28]

He has an introduction. well, part of the book of record. He has, there's this case in the middle, and then there's this, and what he would say if he was there. And then he has this long introduction to it. So, since it's first, we'll start with the introduction. In studying the way, the mind of the way is primary. This temple in the remote mountains and deep valleys is not easy to reach, and people arrive only after sailing over oceans and climbing mountains. Without treading with the mind of the way, it's difficult to arrive at this field. To refine the rice, first the bran must be removed. This is a good place in which to engage the way.

[58:33]

And yet, I'm sorry that the master, Dogen, does not readily attend to others by disposition. However, by day or night, the voice of the valley stream happens to be conducive for carrying water. Also, in spring and fall, the colors of the mountain manage to be conducive for gathering firewood. I hope that cloud and water monks will keep the way in mind. So this is the pointer, longer than the case of the commentary. He starts, in studying the way, the mind of the way is primary. So this is a koan about bodhicitta, about the mind of the way. So we talked about this a little bit before, but in studying the way, the first thing is to arouse the thought. to bring forth the mind that wishes to relieve the suffering and bring joy to all beings, that wishes to deeply connect with the way.

[59:39]

So, you know, I mentioned it before, but again, that first impulse towards practice, that first thought, that first deep thought of caring for all beings. Do any of you have any recollections of, maybe it doesn't, sometimes it doesn't happen just once, it happens in various ways, different times, but any of you remember that? Any of you tell us about? your rising of the mind in a way? Well, it wasn't so much caring for all beings, but I remember being a very small child and spending a long time looking at, just being intimate with ants, looking at ants building houses on my grandfather's sidewalk. And then he was doing yard work, and the next thing he did was come and sweep them. Were you upset?

[60:53]

He didn't degrade my caring for these creatures but he also didn't Good. Great. Any other stories? That's a great one. Yeah. I was under less than five and out the back of my parents' house was a a creek, or the dam, and rocks down below. And I remember being down on the rocks by the side of the river, and just, all of a sudden, just feeling completely at home in the world.

[61:54]

Just like everything was just saying, kind of like, welcome. And so I think the Bonachico rose after seeing that. This is eating. This is where we're supposed to live. This is not where we're living. I think it's actually after people have been practicing for a while, it's happened to me too, that I remember things from childhood, experiences of meditation, of realizing and connecting something up that has something deeply to do with our practice. Anyone else have an account? It's just one step.

[63:34]

And I started crying for a piece like this, stopped crying. And nobody knew I was crying because everybody was breathing so hard, and I just sounded like I was breathing hard. And it increased me that it wasn't me who had gotten myself to this place, that it was a series of people, friends and family. So, yeah, so when we actually recognize deeply the dependent co-arising of all things in our own situation, yeah, that's another kind of arising of this mind of the way. Thank you. Okay. Excuse me. and listening to Kairi Roshi speak, some of his talks he would give on the Bodhisattva path.

[65:09]

He would say, this is what the Bodhisattva does. We elucidate that. This is the way of the Bodhisattva. He would just crank it up, crank it up, crank it up, all the things that a Bodhisattva does, until my heart just sunk. I will never give up something. Never. I would never do that. And I guess, looking around, I saw that same look on everyone's face. They were all like, oh my God. But then he would look at us and say, oh, but just take one step. Just like, just take one step. And then we would feel a deep sense of relief. So Dogen continues, this temple in the remote mountains and deep valleys is not easy to reach.

[66:22]

People arrive only after sailing over oceans and climbing mountains. So he's obviously talking about Eheji, which was very remote, deep in the mountains in northern Japan. It was not easy to reach. People got there, the monks he was talking to, arrived there only after sometimes sailing over the oceans and climbing many mountains. And yet, as we sit here, some of you have climbed mountains. Some of you have sailed over oceans. It's not been easy for most of you, maybe for any of you, to reach this place. And Dogen says, without treading with the mind of the way, it's difficult to arrive at this field. So treading is literally walking, but also it refers to conduct.

[67:26]

Without taking care of your activity and awareness with the mind of the way. It would be difficult to arrive at this field. To refine the rice, first the bran must be removed. So this is just true in Asian rice cultures, that you need to remove the bran from the rice. And yet, this also has to do with our own practice, that this just sitting does refine us and we do need to remove some of the breath before we can really enjoy digesting our lives. He says, this is a good place in which to engage the way and yet I'm sorry that the master does not readily attend to others by disposition. So this is kind of funny and I appreciated that someone laughed when I read it. in some ways, you know, I feel like he's talking about himself, you know, like maybe this is one of those places.

[68:35]

And there are numbers of them. Inehe Kuroku Udogen, you know, is sharing something of himself in this way. You know, maybe he's, there's lots of ways to read it. Maybe he's kind of shy. Maybe he's just not very good at, Maybe he doesn't have very good people skills. Maybe he's not very good at, I don't know. But despite his disposition, by his tendency, he's not very patient with others. Lots of ways to read this. And it literally just says the master, and it implies referring to Dogen himself, but maybe it's always true that when you arrive at such a temple in the remote mountains, when you have crossed waters to arrive at such a place, the master does not readily attend to others by disposition.

[69:40]

Maybe even there's a reason why he shouldn't readily attend to others. Anyway, there's lots of ways to read this. However, by day or night, The voice of the valley stream happens to be conducive for carrying water. Also in spring and fall, the colors of the mountain manage to be conducive for gathering firewood. So there are a couple of classicals and references in there. Does anyone recognize? Well, there's the classic about just chopping wood and carrying water. Right. Clayman Pank said that his supernatural powers were just chopping wood and carrying water. So that's one, or gathering firewood and carrying water. There's also an essay by Dogen and Shibu Genzo about a poem by Sutong Po, another great Chinese Zen poet, who after his awakening said,

[70:44]

The sound of the valley stream is the voice of the Buddha. The colors of the mountain, or the form of the mountain, is the body of the Buddha. Tomorrow, how will I share this with others? Something like that. And Dogen wrote an essay called The Sound of the Valley Stream is the Form of the Mountain about that, and he's referring to that here. But also, here he is, he's talking at AEG, and it's way back in the mountains, and if any of you have practiced in such a place, it is conducive to taking care of yourself and taking care of others, to paying attention to just this, to being present and facing the law. But even if you are not, in the deep mountains, maybe in some ways the voice of the vehicles passing by, the colors of the light off the windows as it's reflected by the buildings in St.

[72:07]

Paul, and so forth, are conducive to your taking care of your practice. How do you appreciate this space when we get here. So he says, I hope the cloud and water monks, I hope the monks, the clouds and waters and center will keep the way in mind. So, any comments on this long introduction? Questions or responses? Yeah, he's saying he's not readily attending to others by disposition, but he's really concerned about the, yeah, he's concerned about the monks. He just seems to be saying, you know, this isn't easy.

[73:08]

This isn't easy. And yet. And yet. He's sort of saying congratulations for having gotten here. Yeah, it does sound that way. I guess I also hear him saying that you need a great effort to come here, but the mountains And the rivers are supporting the practice just as fully as you're supporting it. Right. So this is talking about self and environment, about how the world supports us in our practice, even though we have to cross mountains and rivers and so forth. And in a sense, as you were talking, it occurred to me that in a sense,

[74:14]

the effort of the valley stream and the colors of the mountains is effortless. And so maybe there's a kind of a reminder too in there that all of this support is there and this just happened, you know, coming over oceans just happens to be your work in doing away. And that's something else I'm hearing in there. There's a kind of a This is just... I hope you keep the way in mind, because this is the work of the way. The mind of the way is primary, right. Well, let's move on then. And anything else about this introduction? Anything that came up in your discussions before? supported by the universe, whether we feel that way or not.

[75:22]

Our words have that effect. Yeah. Okay, then he has this koan from Shoshan. I remember a monk asked, all the Buddhas come from this sutra. What is this sutra? I love this monk. This is a great question. It's a very funny question. Shoshana said, speak softly, speak softly. He didn't say, and carry a big stick. He just said, speak softly. So am I speaking to you softly? Yes. So he said, speak softly, speak softly. But we could also say, and speak up. Take it easy, but take it. The monk asked, how should we receive and maintain it?

[76:26]

So the monk got it. And he said, how should we receive and maintain it? Shoshan said, it can never be defiled. So we've heard that already today. Nanyue's answer to Shoshan, the Sixth Ancestor saying, is there practice realization or not? What about this first question of the monks? Any comments on this question? So is he testing him? Is it like a trick question? I mean, I guess I don't think there's a good way of referring to something else. What is the meaning of this question? What's going on? What is this question about? Partly it comes up in the Diamond Sutra, where it says, all the Buddhas, all the dharmas, come forth from this sutra.

[77:27]

Good. And that sutra, in that case, was Well, yes, good, there is that illusion. There's also, what is a sutra? Well, before that, what is a sutra? Sutra is the words of a Buddha. So all the Buddhas come from this sutra. What is the sutra So the sutra is spoken by a Buddha. That's what a sutra is. Sutra is the words of the Buddha. How is a clump of earth spoken by a Buddha? Excuse me? How is a clump of earth spoken by a Buddha? Okay. How is a clump of earth spoken by a Buddha? Yes. Any responses?

[78:30]

Do the Buddhas come from a clump of earth? I'm sorry. I can just, we could just talk up. So he said, I asked, Well, all the Buddhas come from the sutra. What is the sutra? And Ian said, does a clump of earth come from the sutra, from the Buddha? How does the Buddha speak? How does the Buddha speak a clump of earth? How does the Buddha speak a clump of earth? So I... That's pretty good. So the question I had said is that the sutras are the words of a Buddha. So how could all the Buddhas come from a sutra, since the sutra is already the word of a Buddha?

[79:45]

So that's my question to it. But I think this is a good question too. How do... How could the Buddhas speak a Klampa verse? So... all the Buddhas come forth from the ground. The Lotus Sutra talks about the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas emerging from the ground. My next book is about that, too. So, all the Buddhas come forth from the ground, from underneath our cushions. So, what is this sutra? That's a good thing to connect with it. Anyway, this is a really interesting question. I really appreciate this monk. He never became a noted teacher because they didn't mention his name, but I think he's terrific. All the Buddhas come from the sutra. What is the sutra? So, one answer is the sutra is the very ground.

[80:52]

And it was the sutra before there were sutras. It was the sutra that spoke the Buddhas before the Buddhas could speak the sutras, maybe. But that's not what Shoshan says. What does Shoshan say? Speak softly, speak softly. But speak up. Yes, speak softly, speak softly. So what do you think of Shoshan's answer? How is Shoshan answering? See, is he telling the mosque that as he speaks the Buddhas are coming from his words? That's one way to read it, that's good. There's a statue of Kuyasan in Kyoto, who was one of the early Pure Land saints who wandered around. the streets of Japan chanting Nam-mida-butsu, chanting the Nam-butsu and he's holding a staff and he's got a gong that he's hitting and he used to dance around the streets chanting the name of Buddha.

[81:56]

And in the statue you see there's a thin metal thread coming out of his mouth and there's little standing Buddhas representing his Nam-mida-butsu, representing his chanting of the names of Buddha. It's beautiful. But speak softly, speak softly also maybe refers to kind speech, speaking gently. Intimacy. Intimacy. Okay. Anybody else? You don't remember what was said when you talked about it before? No. Okay. I don't remember this at all. So, he says speak softly, speak softly. I like this answer. Speak softly. This is the sutra from which the Buddhas come. The monk asked, how do we receive and maintain it?

[83:02]

So this is the name of an abbot of a temple in Japan. One of the main names means to receive, to abide and maintain, or to receive and maintain in the temple. How should we receive and maintain it? This is the question. How do we take care of the practice? Now you have it, so keep it well. How do we take care of this? And Shoshana said, it can never be defiled. Again, referring to this story about what is this that thus comes. Comments or questions? Yes? Did anybody say reverence? That's good too, yeah. Reverence. Yeah, that's part of the feeling of it, yes. But then he goes on to say that it's indestructible, so it's kind of interesting. Well, is it indestructible?

[84:04]

It can never be defiled. That's a good question. Does never be defiled mean that it's eternal? I mean, I think maybe not necessarily, but it certainly could imply that. But it's not exactly saying that. It's saying it can never be defiled. No matter how poorly we respond to this koan, no matter how bad your answers are, no matter how inadequately I speak about this dharma, no matter how bad as end teacher I am, it can never be, the dharma can never be defined. Fred? Yeah, it can't be stained by my practice or perceptions or experiences. Right. How could that be true and it not be indistinguishable? It has to be destructible for it to be undefeatable.

[85:07]

If it was indestructible, it was always, think of like, a really old bridge. It's got weatherstain and spray paint and things on it, but if it's destructible, it's always coming, rising and falling. It's always new. So it has to be destructible to be undefeatable. Okay? Okay, good. So, speaking softly can never be defiled. But, so, Ian's saying that it has to be destructible. It has to be ephemeral to really be undefilable.

[86:08]

And you were saying, well, if it's undefilable, it can't be destroyed. So I'm not going to take sides on that. But look at what it, look at, you know, so the practice of this would be to look at both sides of that. Can I ask a point of clarification? The common And Ian's comment as it relates to this, I don't know if it's true or not, that's the reason I'm asking the question, is often my feeling in the East that the individual is the beginning of history. And so we in the West have trouble understanding it merely because of our cultural differences. And in this sense, I think that Yes.

[87:23]

So I'm not, I don't, you know, I don't have an answer for that. I don't think that Buddhism assumes, no, well I would say that Buddhism does not assume that we are, that only human beings are Buddhas. It is said that it's easier for human beings to become Buddhas than for other kinds of creatures. If you're in hell, it's a little more difficult because it's too painful. Or if you're a hungry ghost, you know, you're too obsessed with looking for food. Or if you're a heavenly being, you're too sated with entertainment and so forth. But also, you know, Maybe dogs have buddha natures, maybe birds have buddha natures. Maybe the fences and walls and tiles and pebbles can speak the dharma. So... I'm curious about the, it can never be defiled.

[88:39]

I think I've heard what was said to Ranboyd was Only don't defile it, or take care of this Dharma. Don't defile it by thinking practice and utilization are different from one another. That might be another translation. That's not how I've been translating it. I heard that statement referring to him and how we should act. This seems to be referring to the sutra or that suchness as saying, that cannot be defiled. No, because it's Nanyue who says that in the, so the sixth ancestor says, is there practice realization, then is there practice realization or not? If there's nothing you can say that will hit the mark. And so speaking softly is a kind of interesting alternative to anything I say will miss the mark.

[89:46]

And Nanyue answers to that. I don't think he says, I won't defile it. I think he says it cannot be defiled. It could be translated in various ways. And it's not the six ancestors saying to Nanyue, don't defile it. It's Nanyue who says it first. But there may be other versions of it. as possible. I'm kind of interested in, there seems to be, well, yes, the monk asks, how do we receive and maintain it? And one possible, I think possibly mistaken interpretation would be, well, if you can't defile it, then you don't have to worry about receiving and maintaining it. Right. Right. And just before that, of course, Xiaoshan seems to be saying, be intimate with it, be reverent with it, be respectful about it.

[90:48]

So that seems to be kind of a maintain. So that part kind of interests me, because on the one hand, Xiaoshan is saying, no matter what you do, you can't defile it. But he's not saying don't receive and maintain it either. Well, I don't know if he's saying, no matter what you, I think he's saying, I would read it as, it can never be defiled, as that's the way to receive and maintain it. To know that it can never be defiled, rather than, how you said it? So rather than defiling anything, maybe we should stop before we finish what Dogen says about it. And you all know about, oh, I talked earlier about reaching back for your pillow in the middle of the night.

[91:51]

So you can do the rest on your own. Dogen answers a different way. So, I'd rather close by just saying if, rather than talking about a specific Dharamhal discourse, are there general responses then to Dogen and Ehekharaku and how to receive and maintain studying with Dogen? or just any old other things that anybody wants to say? There's quite an edge in the whole thing of playing with it and understanding it. I've noticed just in the course of the day today falling off that edge several times.

[92:56]

What was that like? Can you give examples? Or not specific text, but just how did that feel? Frustrating, irritating. Where did you fall to? Checking out. So giving up trying to understand or trying to understand? Both. Uh-huh. OK. OK. It's been a long day and I think we're all tired. But short of checking out, I don't know, does anybody have any last things to say to Dogen? For today? Thank you.

[93:57]

Thank you. Oh, yes, thank you, Dogen. Thank you all for coming and sharing this play with Dogen. Please enjoy playing with Dogen. Don't worry about understanding. Thank you. I think I felt like you really got us playing. Yes, exactly. Sorry. So thank you all very much.

[94:31]

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